Topic: HAY LETS TALK ABOUT PIRACY IN HERE

[BlackNMild2k1]

Your DS analogy is broken. Nintendo didn't retroactively disable my DS Phat GBA slot. They made a revised product while still selling the old. If this is what Sony did, then you might have the correct analogy, but this didn't happen. Try harder.

His analogy was right, you just read it wrong. He didn't say that Nintendo did that, he was saying IF Nintendo did that, which would be comparative to what Sony did with OtherOS, then people would have been in their right to hack the system to allow GBA games to be played through the slot again since that was an advertised feature and likely a major reason that they bought the system.

[broodwars]

I am flabbergasted by your lack of curiosity. The universe itself is a big giant lock with it's secrets screaming to be unlocked. For scientists, the laws of nature is both the key and the prize. For others, Sudoku is enough of a mystery, others it is electronic devices, playing games or digging a hole in the ground to see whats underneath(I most certainly did this as a kid).

You find a locked chest or someone gave one to you are you not going to take bolt cutters to it to see what is inside? Or is the idea of Pandoras Box so strong within you that you are frozen with inaction or even flee? If you truly believe this curiosity is so selfish that you even consider it EVIL, then man should have never walked out that cave into the light and just die.

*Philosophical/Political Justification B.S.*

I suppose your motto, then is "Nothing is True.  Everything is Permitted."      The guy didn't say anything about ignoring the secrets of the universe or whatever else philosophical B.S. you were going on about just now.  In fact, he clearly stated that he didn't have an issue with hobbyists tinkering with and hacking systems out of benevolent curiosity.  He just said that people and companies who create something have a right to protect it, which is what Sony has been trying to do.  Now, I don't agree that they did it the right way in outright removing Other OS, but perhaps it was the only way to stave off the inevitable.  And while this security hole may not be fixable by firmware updates, don't think for a moment that that's going to deter Sony from trying.  I look forward to the epic 10-20 minute firmware downloads I'm going to have to suffer through because "curiosity" and self-righteous indignation from some with no respect for the rule of law dictated I must.  If you have a problem with the removal of Other OS, there is a class-action lawsuit in the system right now on this very issue.  The law can settle the matter there.

And that's something else, actually: there was an argument that those who found that security exploit and used it to crack the system and create this alternative Linux hack are not responsible for all the piracy that will ensue.  B.S.  When they created this hack, they had to know that illegal and harmful activity would ensue when it reached those with lesser morals, and they released it anyway (and apparently explained in detail, from the look of Destructoid, how they did it).  IMO, they are just as morally complicit to piracy as those that commit it, because they knowingly enabled it.

[BlackNMild2k1]

thats like saying that the people that invented the car are responsible for people driving drunk and getting into accidents.

Sure someone opened the door, but that doesn't make them responsible for every idiot that goes through it after him.
If Sony had left OtherOS intact, then the hacking community at large was mostly satisfied with their level of access, and things would have continued to progress slowly. PS3 might have still been mostly unhacked till this day and maybe on till the next system.

It wasn't until Sony decided to suddenly change the locks, keep your last months rent & deposit and chuck all your **** onto the front lawn that the hackers decided it was time to do something.

Sony brought this on themselves as they over reacted to a very minor threat and created a much bigger one in the process.

[Chozo Ghost]

Sony had every right to take away

No they didn't. Taking away a feature people already paid money for is theft. Of course, piracy is theft too and two wrongs certainly don't make a right, but Sony is just as bad as any pirate as far as I'm concerned. Theft is wrong when pirates do it, but its also wrong when big wealthy corporations do it as well. Taking away something consumers already paid for is wrong. Period.

To be honest, I would be happy if Sony found a way to brick every system that did this.

If they do, I hope Sony makes a mistake and accidentally brick your system too. Let's see how well you defend them when you become the victim of their bullshit. When that time comes the fact you were kissing their ass in forums such as this is going to mean squat to them.

[TJ Spyke]

You think it is theft by Sony? Bullshit. This is right on Sony's website:

Features, specifications, prices, services and content are subject to change or withdrawal at any time and SCEA does not provide any refunds in the event of a price drop, a subsequent promotional offering or product removal.

This means they are telling you that they could remove features or drop the price at any time. I don't get how you can possibly defend these hackers. There is also the fact that Sony legally can remove stuff at any time and they tell you they may do it. As for your other point, I haven't hacked my PS3 and have no plans to do so. Unlike you, I am not promoting something that is ethically wrong and will be used purely for illegally stuff my probably 90% of the people who hack their system.

BNM, your example is wrong. It would be like if someone provided a book with instructions on how to build a bomb and where to get those parts. That person would be responsible for every death and injury that resulted from someone using those instructions.

[Chozo Ghost]

You think it is theft by Sony? Bullshit. This is right on Sony's website:

Features, specifications, prices, services and content are subject to change or withdrawal at any time and SCEA does not provide any refunds in the event of a price drop, a subsequent promotional offering or product removal.

A pirating group could put something on their website claiming they have a right to do this or that, but that doesn't mean they do. Sony is subject to laws and regulations like anyone else, and the government does put these in place to protect the rights of consumers. That's why Microsoft was in trouble about a decade ago for their shenanigans. But this goes even beyond laws because its just plain wrong to rip people off.

Unlike you, I am not promoting something that is ethically wrong

I was thinking the same exact thing about you. I guess in your view corporations are always right and consumers are always wrong. That's why the mods changed your title to what it is. Your head is so far up Sony/Gamestop's ass its ridiculous.

BTW, thanks for the smite. Right back at ya.

[BranDonk Kong]

That's the only reason I bought a used PSP, because of how easy it was to mod.

Just wanted to point this out, Mr. Ethics.

And the whole bomb instruction manual thing is a completely retarded argument. A more appropriate argument would be if someone figure out how to build, say, a computer, but you could also use those same parts and arrange them differently to build a bomb, and even that is a retarded argument.

[Chozo Ghost]

OH HO! The same guy who wishes Sony bricks every hacked PS3 admitted himself in a previous post that he bought a PSP just because of how easy it was to be hacked? Wow! I guess its a different story when HE does it.

Now that this little tidbit has been brought to light I don't see how he can be taken seriously in the discussion from this point on. If I were in his shoes right now I'd be very embarrassed.

[BlackNMild2k1]

LOL @ the hypocrite that won't quit.

[oohhboy]

*Philosophical/Political Justification B.S.*

There is your problem. Let me boil it down more for you. You are American correct? Well based on your profile I have to assume so. Your country was founded on this *Philosophical/Political Justification B.S.*. Your forefathers solution was violence and nationhood. Oh, maybe they should have sued the King (This is the 1700's get real).They did try the next best thing by appealing to the king, but I guess you know how that went. Next came civil disobedience and protests. Tea in water etc.

Governments and the laws they pass work because they have the consent of the people. Without it, they are no different from a Mafia. Hence the need to question and test government at every turn. Sure none of this is as grand or as noble as your American revolution, but it doesn't have to be. Not everybody gets to be a hero and be the generation that frees the slaves or ends segregation or fight Nazis. Everyone fights their fight and changes the world in their own little way. Who are you to denied them that?

Corporations are not people nor do they represent the will of the people and should not have the ability to write laws or make declarations as to how much of a product you own after the fact. Which leads to...

"Nothing is True.  Everything is Permitted."

You said this, not me, if fact I self countered and pointed out this paradox. If I truly believe that, I could murder you or anyone else based on whether I could overpower them. Might makes right? Right? Corporations are mighty so surely they are right? Absolute freedom above all else, ANARCHY FOR ALL!!! Sod off.

And that's something else, actually: there was an argument that those who found that security exploit and used it to crack the system and create this alternative Linux hack are not responsible for all the piracy that will ensue.  B.S.  When they created this hack, they had to know that illegal and harmful activity would ensue when it reached those with lesser morals, and they released it anyway (and apparently explained in detail, from the look of Destructoid, how they did it).  IMO, they are just as morally complicit to piracy as those that commit it, because they knowingly enabled it.

Alfred Nobel would be rolling in his grave if he could hear you. One mans science of peace and industry is another's weapon of mass destruction.

In any case BlackNMild2k1 said it better than I.   

[KDR_11k]

Well, Sony stripped out a feature in already purchased products that they had advertised was there. It may be a minor feature that few used, but its the principle of a business deleting a feature in a product that has already been purchased that has people pissed off. If I own a product which had certain features advertised and the company that made it later pulled that feature out then I'm going to be damn well pissed off about that, even if it wasn't a feature I used or was ever going to use anyway. Because like I said its the principle of it.

Don't try to claim I condone piracy, because I don't. But I do feel on some level that the PS3 being cracked is karma for removing a feature which consumers had already paid for.

Also from an economic standpoint a system with more features is worth more so they reduced the value of your PS3.

[broodwars]

*rambling*.

OK, dude, seriously...I think you're going a tad overboard comparing a group releasing an illegal security hack to undermine a company's legal rights to American revolutionaries opposing the British crown with the Boston Tea Party; the end of segregation and slavery; and fighting the Nazis in World War II.  This is a game console, not a debate on legal taxation, human rights, or a fight against a genocidal evil.  The debate about the future of consumer rights in the digital age is an interesting one, but let's keep things in perspective, shall we?

"Nothing is True.  Everything is Permitted."

You said this, not me, if fact I self countered and pointed out this paradox. If I truly believe that, I could murder you or anyone else based on whether I could overpower them. Might makes right? Right? Corporations are mighty so surely they are right? Absolute freedom above all else, ANARCHY FOR ALL!!! Sod off.

Apparently, you've never played the Assassin's Creed games.  The Assassins in that game ramble just like you do about these matters, as if they are in a constant life or death struggle with violent oppressors threatening their freedom.  So I threw in their slogan in there in quotations to make a joke about the similarities between the wanton conspiracy theorizing of that franchise and your comments.  Apparently, you did not understand the reference.  Perhaps I should have been more explicit.

As for my comments about the group releasing this hack being morally complicit in piracy, my counterpoint to the common argument is that creating a car is not illegal.  Nor was inventing dynamite.  And cars at least weren't created for the expressed purpose of killing people.  This hack is a different case: it is an illegal security hack created by a group for the expressed purpose of circumventing Sony's legal rights.  But they weren't content to merely create the hack, but then they chose to distribute this hack over the internet and made sure that anyone who is interested in circumventing Sony's PS3 security measures knows exactly how they did it.  That's not just enabling piracy, but passive-aggressively inviting it as well.  To turn around and say that "well, we created the means to pirate the console and told the pirates how to do it, but we don't support piracy" is downright laughable.  You can't create something malicious, and then turn around and cry that it's not your fault it was used maliciously.  It's naive and irresponsible.

[Chozo Ghost]

Wanting to run Linux and various other homebrew apps on the PS3 is not malicious. I don't see anyone condoning piracy here. That's a separate issue. The fact is Sony trumpeted the PS3 as a supercomputer, and advertised the ability to install and run Other OSes (such as, but not limited to Linux). They took that away. Well, the hack restores the ability for users to install Linux once again. I see nothing malicious about that. There are millions of Linux users out there and there are also many people who would like to be able to use their PS3 as a computer, and there's nothing malicious about that. Its not piracy. Its people wanting to use features they had paid for and were promised.

What reason is there for Sony to not restore Other OS now that the system has been hacked anyway? What they feared may have happened has already happened, so the damage is done. So why don't they just bring this feature back? I mean seriously, they should never have removed it in the first place. Its a god damn shame that consumers are forced to resort to illegal hacks to be able to use something they paid for and should be rightfully theirs to use. It is Sony's fault that they are now forced to hack to get what they paid for.

You want to hear a really good analogy for this whole thing? Imagine buying something and then your neighbor steals it from you, so you trespass over into his yard to take it back. Hacking the PS3 is like trespassing, but its being done to take back something you had paid for and the neighbor might not be happy about the trespassing, but he brought it on himself by taking away someone else's property. So think about that. Sometimes you have to break the law in order to defend your rights.

[KDR_11k]

Maybe Sony shouldn't have disabled Other OS instead of whining about it now.

[BranDonk Kong]

Here's the thing - they did not tell "the pirates" how to do play pirated games. First, there's no need to tell them, since they've been able to do so for about 6 months already, and second, all they have done is release information that will help people create custom firmwares and the likes. What the end user does with everything out there is their own choice. This is getting pretty stupid, it's not about piracy. Also, as has been pointed out, everyone worrying about getting a bunch of new FW updates to fight this...really shouldn't have anything to worry about, since they can't release a FW update (really it's not firmware anyway, I've never understood how they caught on) that will completely change their console's security system. Even if they could do that (it would break every existing game, apparently), we can already decrypt, modify, rebuild and resign any update that they would be forcing on us, so it would be pointless. Everyone who wants to discuss piracy should make a new thread or something, because it seems that everyone who supports this could care less about playing pirated games. I for one just want to be able to boot my system into "JailBreak mode" or Linux without having to unplug the system and hook my calculator up to it.

[TJ Spyke]

A pirating group could put something on their website claiming they have a right to do this or that, but that doesn't mean they do. Sony is subject to laws and regulations like anyone else, and the government does put these in place to protect the rights of consumers. That's why Microsoft was in trouble about a decade ago for their shenanigans. But this goes even beyond laws because its just plain wrong to rip people off.

Sony legally has a right to remove features at any time. For those saying it's about Linux, BS. Barely anyone even used the feature when it was part of the PS3.

What a joke, getting smites because I am not supporting pirates.

Chozo, you love coming up with false analogies. First, you don't have a right to Linux on your PS3. You may want it, but you are not entitled to it. If a store offers free Wi-Fi access to customers, then restricts it to employees, are you entitle to hack into their network? No.

[oohhboy]

Go figure someone else would be better at getting at the heart of the matter.

Illegal doesn't equal wrong and legal doesn't equal right in every instance. To take the law literally with out consideration or context makes you nothing more than a senseless caricature of Judge Dread. Would you do something wrong if it was made legal or vis versa?

The examples I gave were of legal laws creating injustices only corrected with illegal actions. While this hack, I say again, is not as grand or as noble as the previous examples, are no less in spirit. This is a debate about consumer rights. Not in the future, but right now. Hacks like this happen because of the erosion of these consumer rights for us to do as we wish with these devices.

I own a Hackintosh. I wanted an Apple machine but couldn't afford one(No surprises there). I could steal one, but that really would be wrong. So I got some compatible PC parts and a couple of hacks later I use it everyday to this very day. Is it illegal? Maybe and most definitely in the US. But did I do wrong? If I am right, although illegal does it make any actions following it illegal? Does a subsequent illegal action or possible illegal action make my right computer wrong?

If these Paradoxes does not compute, then we are done.

[NWR_insanolord]

Exactly how narrow was the exception to the DMCA that made jailbreaking phones legal? Would that apply to this as well? I jailbroke my iPhone because of how easy it became following that law, and I haven't done anything illegal with it, just played around with a few tweaks that aren't officially supported. I use my PS3 primarily as a media device, and I might consider playing around with this if I could expand that functionality. I wouldn't be pirating games or anything; I'd just be doing things Sony didn't intend for and doesn't support, and I should be well within my rights to do such things with a device that I own.

[Enner]

Didn't know people cared so much about Linux. Oh right, the principle of the matter.

You want to hear a really good analogy for this whole thing? Imagine buying something and then your neighbor steals it from you, so you trespass over into his yard to take it back. Hacking the PS3 is like trespassing, but its being done to take back something you had paid for and the neighbor might not be happy about the trespassing, but he brought it on himself by taking away someone else's property. So think about that. Sometimes you have to break the law in order to defend your rights.

Well, to be fair the neighbor gives you the choice of stealing the object or cutting your cable. And the object in question you don't wholly own or at least the programming code that it can run. Bah, now I'm just picking nits. It's sad that the Other OS option has been removed and I don't blame people for wanting to be able to use that feature as well as play the latest PS3 games. I just hope those people won't be tempted to go in to the dark side of copyright infringement as I have noticed an explosion of PS3 ISO dumps everywhere.

...
The examples I gave were of legal laws creating injustices only corrected with illegal actions. While this hack, I say again, is not as grand or as noble as the previous examples, are no less in spirit. This is a debate about consumer rights. Not in the future, but right now. Hacks like this happen because of the erosion of these consumer rights for us to do as we wish with these devices.

I own a Hackintosh. I wanted an Apple machine but couldn't afford one(No surprises there). I could steal one, but that really would be wrong. So I got some compatible PC parts and a couple of hacks later I use it everyday to this very day. Is it illegal? Maybe and most definitely in the US. But did I do wrong? If I am right, although illegal does it make any actions following it illegal? Does a subsequent illegal action or possible illegal action make my right computer wrong?

If these Paradoxes does not compute, then we are done.

What paradox. Legality and morality are separate subjective constructs of society that are often but not always mutual.
I would suggest in purchasing a legal alternative for your operating system and super computer needs. However, money seems to get in the way of everything and I hear the PS3 is a value buy for a super computer.

Exactly how narrow was the exception to the DMCA that made jailbreaking phones legal? Would that apply to this as well? I jailbroke my iPhone because of how easy it became following that law, and I haven't done anything illegal with it, just played around with a few tweaks that aren't officially supported. I use my PS3 primarily as a media device, and I might consider playing around with this if I could expand that functionality. I wouldn't be pirating games or anything; I'd just be doing things Sony didn't intend for and doesn't support, and I should be well within my rights to do such things with a device that I own.

I think it should be fine since the EULA isn't supported by law, I think. Or maybe that is just some weird internet hearsay. You'll void your warranty and Sony won't like you though.

[TJ Spyke]

Just jailbreaking isn't illegal (although I think it is illegal to have someone pay you to jailbreak their stuff). The issue is that very few people who do so do it for stuff like homebrew games, almost all of them do it for illegal stuff.

As for the law, you don't get to pick which laws you follow. If someone pisses me off enough, should I be allowed to kill them because I think I have a moral right? No. If you disagree with a law, try to have it changed; don't violate the law on purpose and act like you are justified in doing so.

[NWR_insanolord]

The issue is that very few people who do so do it for stuff like homebrew games, almost all of them do it for illegal stuff.

How exactly do you know that? Unless you've done elaborate polling, that's pure speculation, something you've said before that you don't care for.

You're arguing that the people who aren't doing anything wrong and are just tinkering with it for fun (a group I believe to be significantly larger than you claim) should be punished because other people used similar methods to do something illegal, which I find appalling.

[Enner]

The issue is that very few people who do so do it for stuff like homebrew games, almost all of them do it for illegal stuff.

How exactly do you know that? Unless you've done elaborate polling, that's pure speculation, something you've said before that you don't care for.

You're arguing that the people who aren't doing anything wrong and are just tinkering with it for fun (a group I believe to be significantly larger than you claim) should be punished because other people used similar methods to do something illegal, which I find appalling.

That is the reason why PC gamers can't have nice things
In a nicer world, commodity companies would trust in the quality of their product to attract enough paying customers for the company to succeed. Can't blame them for wanting to suck up every dollar they can, but I can blame them for devaluing the product in the process.

[stevey]

First, you don't have a right to Linux on your PS3. You may want it, but you are not entitled to it. If a store offers free Wi-Fi access to customers, then restricts it to employees, are you entitle to hack into their network? No.

Even if it was there when it was sold to you? So I don't have the legal right to use my propriety without without corporate approval? If Sony released an update that removes the PS3's ability to play games, it would be in their full legal rights? That BS, when you buy a PS3, you bought it, not leased it from Sony, it not a continued service that Sony does for you. If I want to reprogram and reuse my electronics to do whatever I want with them, that is my full right as its owner. If I buy and fully pay for a car and then car manufacturer doesn't wants me to drive it anymore, do they have any right to tow away my car without reimbursement for my car because they invented/designed the car? Do they have any right to say I can't repaint it or modify it how ever I want? Is it illegal to go under the hood to see how it works?

As for the law, you don't get to pick which laws you follow. If you disagree with a law, try to have it changed; don't violate the law on purpose and act like you are justified in doing so.

Haven't you ever heard "An unjust law is no law at all." Was the civil rights movement wrong because the members blatantly violated segregation and repression laws? It's this kind of nonsense that causes math professors to be arrested because they can't teach/publish research on cryptography without violating DMCA.

[TJ Spyke]

Sony sold you the hardware, not the software. All the software on the system is licensed to you, not sold to you.

Please don't make up crap like you did with the match professors. Also, how is stopping piracy an unjust law? You sound like those idiots who download thousands of songs illegally and claim you aren't doing anything wrong. For you example, that is not apt here. A better example is if you bought a car that had GPS built in and the manufacturer later discontinued the service.

[broodwars]

Haven't you ever heard "An unjust law is no law at all." Was the civil rights movement wrong because the members blatantly violated segregation and repression laws? It's this kind of nonsense that causes math professors to be arrested because they can't teach/publish research on cryptography without violating DMCA.

Haven't you ever heard "the rule of the mob is no rule at all"?  The United States at least is a country founded on the principle of the Rule of Law.  If you don't like a law, you don't just disregard it and do whatever you want.  You fight to have it changed: you protest, you write to your congressmen, you elect new congressmen that share your ideals, you fight the law in court, etc.  Sure, we've had plenty of bad laws, but over time they have been changed or removed outright.  Yes, it is a slow process (not instant gratification, which seems to be all people care about these days) and has plenty of problems and obstacles, but it is the right one and the one with the longest staying power.  Those of the civil rights movement deliberately violated the segregation and repression laws so that the establishment would be forced to enforce their laws, putting the issue in the public's eyes as something that needed to be changed in the court of law.  I don't get that from these hackers.  The ones making the real difference in this issue are those who are taking it to court on that class action lawsuit, where a ruling could be made (there's always the possibility of settlement) that could eventually go to the Supreme Court.  The Supreme Court could then make a decision that radically changes at least how American consumers' digital rights function.  It's an imperfect solution, but that's how it should be.