Author Topic: HAY LETS TALK ABOUT PIRACY IN HERE  (Read 23802 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Morari

  • 46 DC EA D3 17 FE 45 D8 09 23 EB 97 E4 95 64 10 D4 CD B2 C2
  • Score: -7237
    • View Profile
HAY LETS TALK ABOUT PIRACY IN HERE
« on: December 30, 2010, 08:28:38 PM »
It took this long because the homebrew community was largely happy with the Other OS option. Sony took that away and everything crumbled down around them pretty quick. The hackers will always win. I don't understand why companies continue to waste time and money fighting them for the long haul.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 04:57:56 PM by vudu »
"This post has been censored for your protection."

                                --Bureau of Internet Morality

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2010, 10:03:32 PM »
You really can't appreciate this unless you watch the 44 minute video or read the 144 page PDF that explains everything. They didn't just figure out "the random number," one hack lead to another which lead to another and so on until they needed to figure out two variables, one of which was a constant "the random number" which lead them to figure out the other variable...and now (all existing consoles at least) the PS3 is hacked, forever. I probably just explained it horribly, but basically each of the security system's shortcomings came into play.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline BlackNMild2k1

  • Animal Crossing Hustler
  • Score: 409
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2010, 10:29:12 PM »
But if it wasn't for OtherOS, we could have been here 3 years ago.


& who knows how the  PS3 would be doing right now if it was free access to the whole system 3 years ago.

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2010, 10:48:33 PM »
I think that was a major selling point for the PSP for the first few years of its life, because there were no decent games until the last year or two. People were buying the PSP and then pirating stuff on it as opposed to actually buying PSP games.
is your sanity...

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2010, 10:53:35 PM »
That's the only reason I bought a used PSP, because of how easy it was to mod.
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2010, 11:11:26 PM »
Word. I think I've only played like 2 or 3 actual PSP games on my PSP, I mainly just use the CPS2, SNES, Genesis emulators, etc, or do Remote Play (very rarely) with my (JailBroken) PS3.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2010, 12:30:39 PM »
Quote
The really amazing thing here is that it was something so ridiculously stupid and yet took THIS much time before anyone figured it out.

I figure it's because it is so stupid that hackers would never think to look for it.  It's like you plan to rob a place and have this big elaborate plan in mind and then it turns out the front door was left unlocked.

Offline KDR_11k

  • boring person
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2010, 01:42:42 PM »
Perhaps the random number generator isn't seeded, that's a neat problem with old games because you can game the random generator that way if you're doing a TAS.

Offline broodwars

  • Hunting for a Pineapple Salad
  • Score: -1011
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2010, 02:33:18 PM »
You have to love how many die-hard Linux lovers are suddenly coming out of the woodwork to justify this hack based on the loss of Other OS.  Sorry, but I don't buy that excuse.  All this is going to lead to is a massive increase in piracy and a similar increase in forced firmware updates for legitimate PS3 users...all because a relative handful of people are butt-hurt over losing a feature no one else used (and apparently there's no reason to have on the PS3 anyway, since from what I've read the PS3 is so lacking in RAM and whatnot that you get a very stripped-down version of Linux).  I have no problem with benevolent hackers, who hack something for a challenge and then turn around and warn the affected companies that those security holes exist.  But stuff like this is just hackers looking for a reason to legitimize petty vendettas with multi-billion dollar companies.
There was a Signature here. It's gone now.

Offline oohhboy

  • Forum Friend or Foe?
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2010, 03:13:12 PM »
Aahh, there is always a white knight in every forum for every multinational...

Sony should have left in the other OS feature. A large part of why the PS3 hasn't been hacked like this until now because it hasn't been perceived as necessary. The removal lit a fire under the community that had been active for a long time, but making slow progress because they felt they didn't need to.

Yes there is the side effect of opening up the machine to piracy, but you put a lock on something in the open, someone is going to have a go at breaking it. Sure, they could have told Sony, but given how fundamental it is, there is nothing that could have been done. Besides what is the fun in that and what gets a company moving faster than bad PR.

In any case, the security served it's function by delaying open piracy for years. Sony, Nintendo and MS did more than enough damage to the PS3 sales numbers for piracy to be even be a significant factor even if this happened on day one.
I'm Lacus. I'm fine as Lacus!
Pffh. Toilet paper? What do you think cats are for?

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2010, 03:17:34 PM »
PS3 has 512MB RAM (256 system, 256 video), and Linux is not a RAM hog to begin with...it also has 7 3.2Ghz cores. Of course (as a side effect) all of this will make piracy *easier* but it's already incredibly easy as is. They've been working on this for a long time, and has nothing to do with the existing PSJailBreak stuff (which was designed for piracy). The first thing they're going to release is AsbestOS.pup which will install Linux...and not let you play copied games, but there's nothing they can do to stop you. Firmware updates aren't going to do a damn thing.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2010, 07:57:31 PM »
You have to love how many die-hard Linux lovers are suddenly coming out of the woodwork to justify this hack based on the loss of Other OS.  Sorry, but I don't buy that excuse.  All this is going to lead to is a massive increase in piracy and a similar increase in forced firmware updates for legitimate PS3 users...all because a relative handful of people are butt-hurt over losing a feature no one else used (and apparently there's no reason to have on the PS3 anyway, since from what I've read the PS3 is so lacking in RAM and whatnot that you get a very stripped-down version of Linux).  I have no problem with benevolent hackers, who hack something for a challenge and then turn around and warn the affected companies that those security holes exist.  But stuff like this is just hackers looking for a reason to legitimize petty vendettas with multi-billion dollar companies.

Well, Sony stripped out a feature in already purchased products that they had advertised was there. It may be a minor feature that few used, but its the principle of a business deleting a feature in a product that has already been purchased that has people pissed off. If I own a product which had certain features advertised and the company that made it later pulled that feature out then I'm going to be damn well pissed off about that, even if it wasn't a feature I used or was ever going to use anyway. Because like I said its the principle of it.

Don't try to claim I condone piracy, because I don't. But I do feel on some level that the PS3 being cracked is karma for removing a feature which consumers had already paid for.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 07:59:44 PM by Chozo Ghost »
is your sanity...

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2010, 08:06:35 PM »
Pirates would have tried to crack it even if they kept the feature in. Remember that they Linux out specifically because someone had cracked the PS3 already using Linux.
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2010, 08:50:41 PM »
It is interesting that this major crack didn't occur until not long AFTER the patch that took away the Other OS feature. Of course, the crack might have happened even if Other OS was never removed, but the timing is interesting.

Also, if the PS3 was going to be cracked with or without Other OS being removed, then what did Sony gain by taking it out? If they left it in place the PS3 may still have been cracked, but at least the pirates wouldn't be able to use that as an excuse to legitimize it. By taking it out, Sony validated the cracking. And now since its already cracked, why can't Sony put Other OS back in? The damage is already done, so why not bring it back? Bringing it back will remove the major argument pirates have for what they do, so I would think for that reason it would be in Sony's interest to bring the feature back.
is your sanity...

Offline stevey

  • Young HAWNESS
  • Score: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2010, 09:10:46 PM »
Pirates would have tried to crack it even if they kept the feature in. Remember that they Linux out specifically because someone had cracked the PS3 already using Linux.

Would've tried and fail. The guys that are out for piracy aren't that smart or dedicated. Also the 'crack' they made with linux was kind of useless, required annoying hardware/timing, and very hit or miss.
My Demands and Declarations:
nVidia is CRAP!!!
BOYCOTT Digest mode and LEGEND OF OO!

Your PM box will be spammed with Girl Link porn! NO EXCEPTION!
Wii want WaveBirds

Stevey Duff
NWR HAWTNESS Inspector
NWR Staff All Powerful Satin!

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2010, 09:20:40 PM »
Somehow I doubt the PS3 would have been the first video game system (or electronic device in general) that wasn't cracked.
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2011, 01:09:33 AM »
When did someone actually crack the PS3 before? I know GeoHot had done some stuff with it (and he may already have figured out everything that is being revealed now long ago), but he never released anything, and it was a hardware based attack. Removing Linux would have never stopped the current exploit from happening (and obviously didn't). It was just a completely stupid move by Sony, and now, they're going to pay for it. The hackers also showed that there was no real reason for Sony to not allow OtherOS on the PS3 Slim to begin with.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2011, 01:25:50 AM »
Pay for what? If you mean removing OtherOS, hackers and pirates would have done this anyways. It's delusional to think otherwise, and it doesn't make it legal or acceptable. If you mean stupid by making such a stupid rookie security mistake, I agree. Even somebody in their first semester as a programmer wouldn't have made such a basic mistake.
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2011, 01:48:43 AM »
I mean both. If you are familiar with the people in fail0verfl0w and what they did with the Wii (and before that as well), then you know that piracy is not their aim. Just like they say, you either support Linux on your hardware, or they'll hack it and put it on there themselves. There are some who immediately jump on these opportunities (such as Waninkoko) who please the pirates, but these aren't the people doing the "real" work. Again, the PSJailBreak has been out for several months, and the sole purpose of that is piracy, but as a side effect allows you to install and run homebrew as well. The sole purpose of the new exploit is to turn on your PS3 and have it boot into Linux (on any model, with any firmware), but as a side effect it will of course facilitate piracy. They picked the lock to Sony's door, it's not their fault that Sony threw away the key. I can't say that this is technically illegal or not, but certainly it's acceptable. Whether or not you bought a PS3 to use Linux in the past, the fact that it was an advertised (and not minor) feature of the system that was unjustly taken away (and for absolutely no reason, apparently) then I believe you are morally justified in getting this feature back on your system. I'm not a big-time Linux user (probably would be if I didn't have a wife and kids), but I have installed it on my PC at work, and used to run x-DSL on my Xbox, and I'm looking forward to being able to get rid of my PC in my family room and just use my PS3 as my (BluRay equipped) HTPC. It's basically like this - whether you support this or not, it's fucking awesome, especially since the entire console will be unlocked.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2011, 04:16:36 AM »
Pay for what? If you mean removing OtherOS, hackers and pirates would have done this anyways. It's delusional to think otherwise, and it doesn't make it legal or acceptable. If you mean stupid by making such a stupid rookie security mistake, I agree. Even somebody in their first semester as a programmer wouldn't have made such a basic mistake.

You didn't answer my questions (which were for everyone really, but directed at you in particular).
is your sanity...

Offline Spak-Spang

  • The Frightened Fox
  • Score: 39
    • View Profile
    • MirandaNew.com
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2011, 09:00:47 AM »
I have no problem with hobbyists practicing coding through hacking and cracking security systems.  But, I am really frustrated about the lack of respect some people have for businesses and intellectual properties in today's society. 

The time may be interesting, but this has nothing to do with Linux...someone just wanted to hack a system, and unfortunately for Sony, and every other gaming company it means the pirates win again.  Which is very frustrating and sad...and goes to hurt everyone in the industry and the gamers, because this type of stuff when it gets out promotes piracy plan and simple. 

I also do not agree that you can justify this by saying, Sony took a feature away that people wanted.  Nintendo took out Gameboy Advance support in the newer DS.  That doesn't give me the right to complain and then hack the system to play games.  The feature was removed, probably for reasons of security in the first place. 

I also really hate the analogy if you have a locked door someone must unlock it.  That is twisted logic, and if it is true...is a testament to how selfish and I would dare say evil our society is.  People should have the right to protect themselves and businesses should have the right to change their products and protect their properties.

That being said, like I started before I have no problem with the hobbyists, and I don't know if this is illegal, but they shouldn't be pressed at all for legal action.  And I agree that Sony taking an advertised feature and not just taking it away from new PS3s like backwards compatibility but taking it away from all users is pretty low. 

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2011, 10:22:47 AM »
They are not even slightly morally justified to hack it. Sony had every right to take away Linux, and the reason they did has already been explained. To be honest, I would be happy if Sony found a way to brick every system that did this.
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline stevey

  • Young HAWNESS
  • Score: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2011, 11:11:09 AM »
Quote
They are not even slightly morally justified to hack it. Sony had every right to take away Linux

Sony has absolutely NO RIGHT to take away Linux in the older PS3. There are many groups out there that bought PS3s solely to network them together and use as a cheap parallel computer clusters including different parts of the US military and many universities that are now out of thousands of dollars. This is no different then Nintendo releasing an update that removes GC BC for every Wii previously made or new DS games that flashes old DS phats to removes their ability to play GBA games. Or even Mircosoft releasing an update for Windows that removes it's ability to connect to internet completely or to non-Microsoft affiliated sites and forbid installing any software that can. If they wants to release new products like that it's their choice but they can not arbitrarily say you're finish with your possessions, buy a new ones or enjoy your bricks suckers.
My Demands and Declarations:
nVidia is CRAP!!!
BOYCOTT Digest mode and LEGEND OF OO!

Your PM box will be spammed with Girl Link porn! NO EXCEPTION!
Wii want WaveBirds

Stevey Duff
NWR HAWTNESS Inspector
NWR Staff All Powerful Satin!

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2011, 11:23:56 AM »
Sony may have had a right (if you read the fine print) to have removed Linux, but they did not have a good reason (and has never been explained), and they screwed every single person that wanted to use Linux and actually play PS3 games on their console. they are *completely* MORALLY justified in what they have done. Your morals belong to you and you alone, you may disagree with someone else's morals, but that doesn't change anything.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline oohhboy

  • Forum Friend or Foe?
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2011, 12:45:25 PM »
I have no problem with hobbyists practicing coding through hacking and cracking security systems.  But, I am really frustrated about the lack of respect some people have for businesses and intellectual properties in today's society. 

I also do not agree that you can justify this by saying, Sony took a feature away that people wanted.  Nintendo took out Gameboy Advance support in the newer DS.  That doesn't give me the right to complain and then hack the system to play games.  The feature was removed, probably for reasons of security in the first place. 

I also really hate the analogy if you have a locked door someone must unlock it.  That is twisted logic, and if it is true...is a testament to how selfish and I would dare say evil our society is.  People should have the right to protect themselves and businesses should have the right to change their products and protect their properties.

That being said, like I started before I have no problem with the hobbyists, and I don't know if this is illegal, but they shouldn't be pressed at all for legal action.  And I agree that Sony taking an advertised feature and not just taking it away from new PS3s like backwards compatibility but taking it away from all users is pretty low. 

I am flabbergasted by your lack of curiosity. The universe itself is a big giant lock with it's secrets screaming to be unlocked. For scientists, the laws of nature is both the key and the prize. For others, Sudoku is enough of a mystery, others it is electronic devices, playing games or digging a hole in the ground to see whats underneath(I most certainly did this as a kid).

You find a locked chest or someone gave one to you are you not going to take bolt cutters to it to see what is inside? Or is the idea of Pandoras Box so strong within you that you are frozen with inaction or even flee? If you truly believe this curiosity is so selfish that you even consider it EVIL, then man should have never walked out that cave into the light and just die.

Your DS analogy is broken. Nintendo didn't retroactively disable my DS Phat GBA slot. They made a revised product while still selling the old. If this is what Sony did, then you might have the correct analogy, but this didn't happen. Try harder.

For all your love of intellectual properties and the law you forgot it is a two way street. Laws only work because there is mutual respect between the people in society as a whole to follow the law. Corporations are not people, it's a legal construct or more basically an idea to remove personal responsibility and risk for private rewards. Society as a whole acts to remedy the imbalance caused by the abuse of the law. Just because somebody wrote it down on paper and signed it mean it contains the consent of society as just and to be enforced. Otherwise you could make anything legal or illegal. The civil penalty in the US for a person for piracy is greater than that of actual theft whether it is a CD of said music or billions of dollars. The penalty effectively imposes perpetual bankruptcy for the lifetime of the defendant resulting in a permanent reduction in quality of life short of that person through chance being able to pay off the burden. How is this just? If I stole a CD and got sent to jail, I can look forward to the day that I leave jail in weeks or months time with a chance and with time to clean the record.

Piracy is only a symptom of a greater issue government losing the will of the people and is also one of the results of freedom. Not only of speech, movement and action, but information. Paradoxically, we limit these freedoms in order to enjoy them.

However reactionaries exists because some people feel that these limitations have exceeded their scope. Some are hackers, some form alternate political groups others are protesters, rioters even or the odd terrorist. The methods vary, so more agreeable than others, but they do not exist in a vacuum. An increasing number of people join these groups or give silent consent as these limitations increase without benefit to the greater society or even remotely match society even believes in regardless of benefit.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 12:50:28 PM by oohhboy »
I'm Lacus. I'm fine as Lacus!
Pffh. Toilet paper? What do you think cats are for?

Offline BlackNMild2k1

  • Animal Crossing Hustler
  • Score: 409
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2011, 04:04:52 PM »
Your DS analogy is broken. Nintendo didn't retroactively disable my DS Phat GBA slot. They made a revised product while still selling the old. If this is what Sony did, then you might have the correct analogy, but this didn't happen. Try harder.

His analogy was right, you just read it wrong. He didn't say that Nintendo did that, he was saying IF Nintendo did that, which would be comparative to what Sony did with OtherOS, then people would have been in their right to hack the system to allow GBA games to be played through the slot again since that was an advertised feature and likely a major reason that they bought the system.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 04:23:59 PM by BlackNMild2k1 »

Offline broodwars

  • Hunting for a Pineapple Salad
  • Score: -1011
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2011, 04:16:47 PM »
I am flabbergasted by your lack of curiosity. The universe itself is a big giant lock with it's secrets screaming to be unlocked. For scientists, the laws of nature is both the key and the prize. For others, Sudoku is enough of a mystery, others it is electronic devices, playing games or digging a hole in the ground to see whats underneath(I most certainly did this as a kid).

You find a locked chest or someone gave one to you are you not going to take bolt cutters to it to see what is inside? Or is the idea of Pandoras Box so strong within you that you are frozen with inaction or even flee? If you truly believe this curiosity is so selfish that you even consider it EVIL, then man should have never walked out that cave into the light and just die.

*Philosophical/Political Justification B.S.*

I suppose your motto, then is "Nothing is True.  Everything is Permitted."   ::)   The guy didn't say anything about ignoring the secrets of the universe or whatever else philosophical B.S. you were going on about just now.  In fact, he clearly stated that he didn't have an issue with hobbyists tinkering with and hacking systems out of benevolent curiosity.  He just said that people and companies who create something have a right to protect it, which is what Sony has been trying to do.  Now, I don't agree that they did it the right way in outright removing Other OS, but perhaps it was the only way to stave off the inevitable.  And while this security hole may not be fixable by firmware updates, don't think for a moment that that's going to deter Sony from trying.  I look forward to the epic 10-20 minute firmware downloads I'm going to have to suffer through because "curiosity" and self-righteous indignation from some with no respect for the rule of law dictated I must.  If you have a problem with the removal of Other OS, there is a class-action lawsuit in the system right now on this very issue.  The law can settle the matter there.

And that's something else, actually: there was an argument that those who found that security exploit and used it to crack the system and create this alternative Linux hack are not responsible for all the piracy that will ensue.  B.S.  When they created this hack, they had to know that illegal and harmful activity would ensue when it reached those with lesser morals, and they released it anyway (and apparently explained in detail, from the look of Destructoid, how they did it).  IMO, they are just as morally complicit to piracy as those that commit it, because they knowingly enabled it.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 04:41:43 PM by broodwars »
There was a Signature here. It's gone now.

Offline BlackNMild2k1

  • Animal Crossing Hustler
  • Score: 409
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2011, 04:36:56 PM »
thats like saying that the people that invented the car are responsible for people driving drunk and getting into accidents.

Sure someone opened the door, but that doesn't make them responsible for every idiot that goes through it after him.
If Sony had left OtherOS intact, then the hacking community at large was mostly satisfied with their level of access, and things would have continued to progress slowly. PS3 might have still been mostly unhacked till this day and maybe on till the next system.

It wasn't until Sony decided to suddenly change the locks, keep your last months rent & deposit and chuck all your **** onto the front lawn that the hackers decided it was time to do something.

Sony brought this on themselves as they over reacted to a very minor threat and created a much bigger one in the process.

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2011, 05:49:59 PM »
Sony had every right to take away

No they didn't. Taking away a feature people already paid money for is theft. Of course, piracy is theft too and two wrongs certainly don't make a right, but Sony is just as bad as any pirate as far as I'm concerned. Theft is wrong when pirates do it, but its also wrong when big wealthy corporations do it as well. Taking away something consumers already paid for is wrong. Period.

To be honest, I would be happy if Sony found a way to brick every system that did this.

If they do, I hope Sony makes a mistake and accidentally brick your system too. Let's see how well you defend them when you become the victim of their bullshit. When that time comes the fact you were kissing their ass in forums such as this is going to mean squat to them.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 05:57:22 PM by Chozo Ghost »
is your sanity...

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2011, 06:36:37 PM »
You think it is theft by Sony? Bullshit. This is right on Sony's website:

Features, specifications, prices, services and content are subject to change or withdrawal at any time and SCEA does not provide any refunds in the event of a price drop, a subsequent promotional offering or product removal.

This means they are telling you that they could remove features or drop the price at any time. I don't get how you can possibly defend these hackers. There is also the fact that Sony legally can remove stuff at any time and they tell you they may do it. As for your other point, I haven't hacked my PS3 and have no plans to do so. Unlike you, I am not promoting something that is ethically wrong and will be used purely for illegally stuff my probably 90% of the people who hack their system.

BNM, your example is wrong. It would be like if someone provided a book with instructions on how to build a bomb and where to get those parts. That person would be responsible for every death and injury that resulted from someone using those instructions.
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2011, 08:06:56 PM »
You think it is theft by Sony? Bullshit. This is right on Sony's website:

Features, specifications, prices, services and content are subject to change or withdrawal at any time and SCEA does not provide any refunds in the event of a price drop, a subsequent promotional offering or product removal.

A pirating group could put something on their website claiming they have a right to do this or that, but that doesn't mean they do. Sony is subject to laws and regulations like anyone else, and the government does put these in place to protect the rights of consumers. That's why Microsoft was in trouble about a decade ago for their shenanigans. But this goes even beyond laws because its just plain wrong to rip people off.

Unlike you, I am not promoting something that is ethically wrong

I was thinking the same exact thing about you. I guess in your view corporations are always right and consumers are always wrong. That's why the mods changed your title to what it is. Your head is so far up Sony/Gamestop's ass its ridiculous.

BTW, thanks for the smite. Right back at ya.
is your sanity...

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2011, 09:43:21 PM »
That's the only reason I bought a used PSP, because of how easy it was to mod.
Just wanted to point this out, Mr. Ethics.

And the whole bomb instruction manual thing is a completely retarded argument. A more appropriate argument would be if someone figure out how to build, say, a computer, but you could also use those same parts and arrange them differently to build a bomb, and even that is a retarded argument.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 09:45:21 PM by Brandogg »
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2011, 10:44:06 PM »
OH HO! The same guy who wishes Sony bricks every hacked PS3 admitted himself in a previous post that he bought a PSP just because of how easy it was to be hacked? Wow! I guess its a different story when HE does it.

Now that this little tidbit has been brought to light I don't see how he can be taken seriously in the discussion from this point on. If I were in his shoes right now I'd be very embarrassed.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 10:48:31 PM by Chozo Ghost »
is your sanity...

Offline BlackNMild2k1

  • Animal Crossing Hustler
  • Score: 409
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2011, 10:59:20 PM »
LOL @ the hypocrite that won't quit.

Offline oohhboy

  • Forum Friend or Foe?
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2011, 02:29:57 AM »
Quote
*Philosophical/Political Justification B.S.*

There is your problem. Let me boil it down more for you. You are American correct? Well based on your profile I have to assume so. Your country was founded on this *Philosophical/Political Justification B.S.*. Your forefathers solution was violence and nationhood. Oh, maybe they should have sued the King (This is the 1700's get real).They did try the next best thing by appealing to the king, but I guess you know how that went. Next came civil disobedience and protests. Tea in water etc.

Governments and the laws they pass work because they have the consent of the people. Without it, they are no different from a Mafia. Hence the need to question and test government at every turn. Sure none of this is as grand or as noble as your American revolution, but it doesn't have to be. Not everybody gets to be a hero and be the generation that frees the slaves or ends segregation or fight Nazis. Everyone fights their fight and changes the world in their own little way. Who are you to denied them that?

Corporations are not people nor do they represent the will of the people and should not have the ability to write laws or make declarations as to how much of a product you own after the fact. Which leads to...

Quote
"Nothing is True.  Everything is Permitted."

You said this, not me, if fact I self countered and pointed out this paradox. If I truly believe that, I could murder you or anyone else based on whether I could overpower them. Might makes right? Right? Corporations are mighty so surely they are right? Absolute freedom above all else, ANARCHY FOR ALL!!! Sod off.

Quote
And that's something else, actually: there was an argument that those who found that security exploit and used it to crack the system and create this alternative Linux hack are not responsible for all the piracy that will ensue.  B.S.  When they created this hack, they had to know that illegal and harmful activity would ensue when it reached those with lesser morals, and they released it anyway (and apparently explained in detail, from the look of Destructoid, how they did it).  IMO, they are just as morally complicit to piracy as those that commit it, because they knowingly enabled it.

Alfred Nobel would be rolling in his grave if he could hear you. One mans science of peace and industry is another's weapon of mass destruction.

In any case BlackNMild2k1 said it better than I.   
I'm Lacus. I'm fine as Lacus!
Pffh. Toilet paper? What do you think cats are for?

Offline KDR_11k

  • boring person
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2011, 02:37:18 AM »
Well, Sony stripped out a feature in already purchased products that they had advertised was there. It may be a minor feature that few used, but its the principle of a business deleting a feature in a product that has already been purchased that has people pissed off. If I own a product which had certain features advertised and the company that made it later pulled that feature out then I'm going to be damn well pissed off about that, even if it wasn't a feature I used or was ever going to use anyway. Because like I said its the principle of it.

Don't try to claim I condone piracy, because I don't. But I do feel on some level that the PS3 being cracked is karma for removing a feature which consumers had already paid for.

Also from an economic standpoint a system with more features is worth more so they reduced the value of your PS3.

Offline broodwars

  • Hunting for a Pineapple Salad
  • Score: -1011
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2011, 03:38:57 AM »
*rambling*.

OK, dude, seriously...I think you're going a tad overboard comparing a group releasing an illegal security hack to undermine a company's legal rights to American revolutionaries opposing the British crown with the Boston Tea Party; the end of segregation and slavery; and fighting the Nazis in World War II.  This is a game console, not a debate on legal taxation, human rights, or a fight against a genocidal evil.  The debate about the future of consumer rights in the digital age is an interesting one, but let's keep things in perspective, shall we?

Quote
Quote
"Nothing is True.  Everything is Permitted."

You said this, not me, if fact I self countered and pointed out this paradox. If I truly believe that, I could murder you or anyone else based on whether I could overpower them. Might makes right? Right? Corporations are mighty so surely they are right? Absolute freedom above all else, ANARCHY FOR ALL!!! Sod off.

Apparently, you've never played the Assassin's Creed games.  The Assassins in that game ramble just like you do about these matters, as if they are in a constant life or death struggle with violent oppressors threatening their freedom.  So I threw in their slogan in there in quotations to make a joke about the similarities between the wanton conspiracy theorizing of that franchise and your comments.  Apparently, you did not understand the reference.  Perhaps I should have been more explicit.

As for my comments about the group releasing this hack being morally complicit in piracy, my counterpoint to the common argument is that creating a car is not illegal.  Nor was inventing dynamite.  And cars at least weren't created for the expressed purpose of killing people.  This hack is a different case: it is an illegal security hack created by a group for the expressed purpose of circumventing Sony's legal rights.  But they weren't content to merely create the hack, but then they chose to distribute this hack over the internet and made sure that anyone who is interested in circumventing Sony's PS3 security measures knows exactly how they did it.  That's not just enabling piracy, but passive-aggressively inviting it as well.  To turn around and say that "well, we created the means to pirate the console and told the pirates how to do it, but we don't support piracy" is downright laughable.  You can't create something malicious, and then turn around and cry that it's not your fault it was used maliciously.  It's naive and irresponsible.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 04:11:15 AM by broodwars »
There was a Signature here. It's gone now.

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2011, 06:27:17 AM »
Wanting to run Linux and various other homebrew apps on the PS3 is not malicious. I don't see anyone condoning piracy here. That's a separate issue. The fact is Sony trumpeted the PS3 as a supercomputer, and advertised the ability to install and run Other OSes (such as, but not limited to Linux). They took that away. Well, the hack restores the ability for users to install Linux once again. I see nothing malicious about that. There are millions of Linux users out there and there are also many people who would like to be able to use their PS3 as a computer, and there's nothing malicious about that. Its not piracy. Its people wanting to use features they had paid for and were promised.

What reason is there for Sony to not restore Other OS now that the system has been hacked anyway? What they feared may have happened has already happened, so the damage is done. So why don't they just bring this feature back? I mean seriously, they should never have removed it in the first place. Its a god damn shame that consumers are forced to resort to illegal hacks to be able to use something they paid for and should be rightfully theirs to use. It is Sony's fault that they are now forced to hack to get what they paid for.

You want to hear a really good analogy for this whole thing? Imagine buying something and then your neighbor steals it from you, so you trespass over into his yard to take it back. Hacking the PS3 is like trespassing, but its being done to take back something you had paid for and the neighbor might not be happy about the trespassing, but he brought it on himself by taking away someone else's property. So think about that. Sometimes you have to break the law in order to defend your rights.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 06:35:00 AM by Chozo Ghost »
is your sanity...

Offline KDR_11k

  • boring person
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2011, 09:02:52 AM »
Maybe Sony shouldn't have disabled Other OS instead of whining about it now.

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2011, 09:20:53 AM »
Here's the thing - they did not tell "the pirates" how to do play pirated games. First, there's no need to tell them, since they've been able to do so for about 6 months already, and second, all they have done is release information that will help people create custom firmwares and the likes. What the end user does with everything out there is their own choice. This is getting pretty stupid, it's not about piracy. Also, as has been pointed out, everyone worrying about getting a bunch of new FW updates to fight this...really shouldn't have anything to worry about, since they can't release a FW update (really it's not firmware anyway, I've never understood how they caught on) that will completely change their console's security system. Even if they could do that (it would break every existing game, apparently), we can already decrypt, modify, rebuild and resign any update that they would be forcing on us, so it would be pointless. Everyone who wants to discuss piracy should make a new thread or something, because it seems that everyone who supports this could care less about playing pirated games. I for one just want to be able to boot my system into "JailBreak mode" or Linux without having to unplug the system and hook my calculator up to it.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2011, 10:14:39 AM »
A pirating group could put something on their website claiming they have a right to do this or that, but that doesn't mean they do. Sony is subject to laws and regulations like anyone else, and the government does put these in place to protect the rights of consumers. That's why Microsoft was in trouble about a decade ago for their shenanigans. But this goes even beyond laws because its just plain wrong to rip people off.

Sony legally has a right to remove features at any time. For those saying it's about Linux, BS. Barely anyone even used the feature when it was part of the PS3.

What a joke, getting smites because I am not supporting pirates.

Chozo, you love coming up with false analogies. First, you don't have a right to Linux on your PS3. You may want it, but you are not entitled to it. If a store offers free Wi-Fi access to customers, then restricts it to employees, are you entitle to hack into their network? No.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 10:17:09 AM by TJ Spyke »
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline oohhboy

  • Forum Friend or Foe?
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2011, 10:16:01 AM »
Go figure someone else would be better at getting at the heart of the matter.

Illegal doesn't equal wrong and legal doesn't equal right in every instance. To take the law literally with out consideration or context makes you nothing more than a senseless caricature of Judge Dread. Would you do something wrong if it was made legal or vis versa?

The examples I gave were of legal laws creating injustices only corrected with illegal actions. While this hack, I say again, is not as grand or as noble as the previous examples, are no less in spirit. This is a debate about consumer rights. Not in the future, but right now. Hacks like this happen because of the erosion of these consumer rights for us to do as we wish with these devices.

I own a Hackintosh. I wanted an Apple machine but couldn't afford one(No surprises there). I could steal one, but that really would be wrong. So I got some compatible PC parts and a couple of hacks later I use it everyday to this very day. Is it illegal? Maybe and most definitely in the US. But did I do wrong? If I am right, although illegal does it make any actions following it illegal? Does a subsequent illegal action or possible illegal action make my right computer wrong?

If these Paradoxes does not compute, then we are done.
I'm Lacus. I'm fine as Lacus!
Pffh. Toilet paper? What do you think cats are for?

Offline NWR_insanolord

  • Rocket Fuel Malt Liquor....DAMN!
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: -18986
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2011, 10:34:27 AM »
Exactly how narrow was the exception to the DMCA that made jailbreaking phones legal? Would that apply to this as well? I jailbroke my iPhone because of how easy it became following that law, and I haven't done anything illegal with it, just played around with a few tweaks that aren't officially supported. I use my PS3 primarily as a media device, and I might consider playing around with this if I could expand that functionality. I wouldn't be pirating games or anything; I'd just be doing things Sony didn't intend for and doesn't support, and I should be well within my rights to do such things with a device that I own.
Insanolord is a terrible moderator.

J.P. Corbran
NWR Community Manager and Soccer Correspondent

Offline Enner

  • My sales numbers, let me show you them
  • Score: 34
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2011, 10:44:59 AM »
Didn't know people cared so much about Linux. Oh right, the principle of the matter.

You want to hear a really good analogy for this whole thing? Imagine buying something and then your neighbor steals it from you, so you trespass over into his yard to take it back. Hacking the PS3 is like trespassing, but its being done to take back something you had paid for and the neighbor might not be happy about the trespassing, but he brought it on himself by taking away someone else's property. So think about that. Sometimes you have to break the law in order to defend your rights.

Well, to be fair the neighbor gives you the choice of stealing the object or cutting your cable. And the object in question you don't wholly own or at least the programming code that it can run. Bah, now I'm just picking nits. It's sad that the Other OS option has been removed and I don't blame people for wanting to be able to use that feature as well as play the latest PS3 games. I just hope those people won't be tempted to go in to the dark side of copyright infringement as I have noticed an explosion of PS3 ISO dumps everywhere.


...
The examples I gave were of legal laws creating injustices only corrected with illegal actions. While this hack, I say again, is not as grand or as noble as the previous examples, are no less in spirit. This is a debate about consumer rights. Not in the future, but right now. Hacks like this happen because of the erosion of these consumer rights for us to do as we wish with these devices.

I own a Hackintosh. I wanted an Apple machine but couldn't afford one(No surprises there). I could steal one, but that really would be wrong. So I got some compatible PC parts and a couple of hacks later I use it everyday to this very day. Is it illegal? Maybe and most definitely in the US. But did I do wrong? If I am right, although illegal does it make any actions following it illegal? Does a subsequent illegal action or possible illegal action make my right computer wrong?

If these Paradoxes does not compute, then we are done.


What paradox. Legality and morality are separate subjective constructs of society that are often but not always mutual.
I would suggest in purchasing a legal alternative for your operating system and super computer needs. However, money seems to get in the way of everything and I hear the PS3 is a value buy for a super computer.


Exactly how narrow was the exception to the DMCA that made jailbreaking phones legal? Would that apply to this as well? I jailbroke my iPhone because of how easy it became following that law, and I haven't done anything illegal with it, just played around with a few tweaks that aren't officially supported. I use my PS3 primarily as a media device, and I might consider playing around with this if I could expand that functionality. I wouldn't be pirating games or anything; I'd just be doing things Sony didn't intend for and doesn't support, and I should be well within my rights to do such things with a device that I own.


I think it should be fine since the EULA isn't supported by law, I think. Or maybe that is just some weird internet hearsay. You'll void your warranty and Sony won't like you though.

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2011, 10:54:41 AM »
Just jailbreaking isn't illegal (although I think it is illegal to have someone pay you to jailbreak their stuff). The issue is that very few people who do so do it for stuff like homebrew games, almost all of them do it for illegal stuff.

As for the law, you don't get to pick which laws you follow. If someone pisses me off enough, should I be allowed to kill them because I think I have a moral right? No. If you disagree with a law, try to have it changed; don't violate the law on purpose and act like you are justified in doing so.
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline NWR_insanolord

  • Rocket Fuel Malt Liquor....DAMN!
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: -18986
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2011, 11:07:56 AM »
The issue is that very few people who do so do it for stuff like homebrew games, almost all of them do it for illegal stuff.

How exactly do you know that? Unless you've done elaborate polling, that's pure speculation, something you've said before that you don't care for.

You're arguing that the people who aren't doing anything wrong and are just tinkering with it for fun (a group I believe to be significantly larger than you claim) should be punished because other people used similar methods to do something illegal, which I find appalling.
Insanolord is a terrible moderator.

J.P. Corbran
NWR Community Manager and Soccer Correspondent

Offline Enner

  • My sales numbers, let me show you them
  • Score: 34
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #46 on: January 02, 2011, 11:22:38 AM »
The issue is that very few people who do so do it for stuff like homebrew games, almost all of them do it for illegal stuff.

How exactly do you know that? Unless you've done elaborate polling, that's pure speculation, something you've said before that you don't care for.

You're arguing that the people who aren't doing anything wrong and are just tinkering with it for fun (a group I believe to be significantly larger than you claim) should be punished because other people used similar methods to do something illegal, which I find appalling.

That is the reason why PC gamers can't have nice things :(
In a nicer world, commodity companies would trust in the quality of their product to attract enough paying customers for the company to succeed. Can't blame them for wanting to suck up every dollar they can, but I can blame them for devaluing the product in the process.

Offline stevey

  • Young HAWNESS
  • Score: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #47 on: January 02, 2011, 11:37:50 AM »
First, you don't have a right to Linux on your PS3. You may want it, but you are not entitled to it. If a store offers free Wi-Fi access to customers, then restricts it to employees, are you entitle to hack into their network? No.

Even if it was there when it was sold to you? So I don't have the legal right to use my propriety without without corporate approval? If Sony released an update that removes the PS3's ability to play games, it would be in their full legal rights? That BS, when you buy a PS3, you bought it, not leased it from Sony, it not a continued service that Sony does for you. If I want to reprogram and reuse my electronics to do whatever I want with them, that is my full right as its owner. If I buy and fully pay for a car and then car manufacturer doesn't wants me to drive it anymore, do they have any right to tow away my car without reimbursement for my car because they invented/designed the car? Do they have any right to say I can't repaint it or modify it how ever I want? Is it illegal to go under the hood to see how it works?

As for the law, you don't get to pick which laws you follow. If you disagree with a law, try to have it changed; don't violate the law on purpose and act like you are justified in doing so.

Haven't you ever heard "An unjust law is no law at all." Was the civil rights movement wrong because the members blatantly violated segregation and repression laws? It's this kind of nonsense that causes math professors to be arrested because they can't teach/publish research on cryptography without violating DMCA.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 12:04:53 PM by stevey »
My Demands and Declarations:
nVidia is CRAP!!!
BOYCOTT Digest mode and LEGEND OF OO!

Your PM box will be spammed with Girl Link porn! NO EXCEPTION!
Wii want WaveBirds

Stevey Duff
NWR HAWTNESS Inspector
NWR Staff All Powerful Satin!

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2011, 12:27:10 PM »
Sony sold you the hardware, not the software. All the software on the system is licensed to you, not sold to you.

Please don't make up crap like you did with the match professors. Also, how is stopping piracy an unjust law? You sound like those idiots who download thousands of songs illegally and claim you aren't doing anything wrong. For you example, that is not apt here. A better example is if you bought a car that had GPS built in and the manufacturer later discontinued the service.
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline broodwars

  • Hunting for a Pineapple Salad
  • Score: -1011
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2011, 12:34:47 PM »
Haven't you ever heard "An unjust law is no law at all." Was the civil rights movement wrong because the members blatantly violated segregation and repression laws? It's this kind of nonsense that causes math professors to be arrested because they can't teach/publish research on cryptography without violating DMCA.

Haven't you ever heard "the rule of the mob is no rule at all"?  The United States at least is a country founded on the principle of the Rule of Law.  If you don't like a law, you don't just disregard it and do whatever you want.  You fight to have it changed: you protest, you write to your congressmen, you elect new congressmen that share your ideals, you fight the law in court, etc.  Sure, we've had plenty of bad laws, but over time they have been changed or removed outright.  Yes, it is a slow process (not instant gratification, which seems to be all people care about these days) and has plenty of problems and obstacles, but it is the right one and the one with the longest staying power.  Those of the civil rights movement deliberately violated the segregation and repression laws so that the establishment would be forced to enforce their laws, putting the issue in the public's eyes as something that needed to be changed in the court of law.  I don't get that from these hackers.  The ones making the real difference in this issue are those who are taking it to court on that class action lawsuit, where a ruling could be made (there's always the possibility of settlement) that could eventually go to the Supreme Court.  The Supreme Court could then make a decision that radically changes at least how American consumers' digital rights function.  It's an imperfect solution, but that's how it should be.
There was a Signature here. It's gone now.

Offline Morari

  • 46 DC EA D3 17 FE 45 D8 09 23 EB 97 E4 95 64 10 D4 CD B2 C2
  • Score: -7237
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #50 on: January 02, 2011, 12:52:29 PM »
If you don't like a law, you don't just disregard it and do whatever you want.  You fight to have it changed: you protest, you write to your congressmen, you elect new congressmen that share your ideals, you fight the law in court, etc.

Unfortunately that doesn't work, because all of those congressmen are owned by corporations like Sony. You have no rights but the ones you take for yourself. Freedom is an illusion given to those blind enough to believe. You can't change the system by playing within the confines of its rules... you're destined to fail.

Don't forget, this is Sony. This is the same company that purposefully installed malicious rootkits on the computer of any legitimate customer looking to play/rip/listen to their purchased music CD.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 12:54:37 PM by Morari »
"This post has been censored for your protection."

                                --Bureau of Internet Morality

Offline stevey

  • Young HAWNESS
  • Score: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2011, 01:17:30 PM »
Quote
Please don't make up crap like you did with the professors

I'm not, there are many professional researchers out there that have been arrested for their work, threaten with legal action, or refuse to publish work for fear. Just to name a few, Edward Felten is a Princeton Professor that was threaten with legal action by the RIAA, Niels Ferguson is a Dutch cryptographer that refuses to publish his work for fear of the DMCA, and Dmitri Sklyarov who was arrested during a trip to US to discuss how he broke Adobe's security that cause the Russian government to issue a travel advisory to the US.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 01:22:09 PM by stevey »
My Demands and Declarations:
nVidia is CRAP!!!
BOYCOTT Digest mode and LEGEND OF OO!

Your PM box will be spammed with Girl Link porn! NO EXCEPTION!
Wii want WaveBirds

Stevey Duff
NWR HAWTNESS Inspector
NWR Staff All Powerful Satin!

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2011, 02:04:24 PM »
What a joke, getting smites because I am not supporting pirates.

You're getting smitted because you're a damn hypocrite. You already admitted you bought a PSP because of how easy it was to hack, and when you were called on it you said nothing in response to it. So STFU about pirates, because you are one yourself and everyone here now knows it. So you don't have a leg to stand on.

And I noticed you have continued to smite me, so I'm going to keep smiting you now in both retaliation and also because you make me sick for being a lying thieving pirate hypocrite who whines about hacking and yet you do it yourself. So now every chance I get I'm hitting that smite button on you until you have the lowest score on the board, because in my opinion you are the lowest.

The issue is that very few people who do so do it for stuff like homebrew games, almost all of them do it for illegal stuff.

You certainly would know, Mr. PSP Pirate.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 02:10:57 PM by Chozo Ghost »
is your sanity...

Offline KDR_11k

  • boring person
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #53 on: January 02, 2011, 02:58:55 PM »
Sony legally has a right to remove features at any time. For those saying it's about Linux, BS. Barely anyone even used the feature when it was part of the PS3.

They also legally have the right to terminate PSN accounts at random, that'd still make them total fuckheads.

Offline Shorty McNostril

  • Blue text is gone :(
  • Score: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #54 on: January 02, 2011, 05:55:44 PM »
I think we will just have to agree to disagree in this topic and move on.  This is starting to get a bit nasty.

Offline NWR_insanolord

  • Rocket Fuel Malt Liquor....DAMN!
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: -18986
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #55 on: January 02, 2011, 06:03:15 PM »
I think we will just have to agree to disagree in this topic and move on.  This is starting to get a bit nasty.

I agree. All those involved have strong opinions that are unlikely to change, and thus there is no further need to continue this line of discussion.
Insanolord is a terrible moderator.

J.P. Corbran
NWR Community Manager and Soccer Correspondent

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #56 on: January 02, 2011, 07:30:29 PM »
I think we will just have to agree to disagree in this topic and move on.  This is starting to get a bit nasty.

I agree. All those involved have strong opinions that are unlikely to change, and thus there is no further need to continue this line of discussion.

Disagreeing isn't the problem. Its someone saying they're strongly against something to the point they wish harm to those who do it and then it turns out that that person actually does the exact thing he hates others for doing. In a previous post a certain member said he wished those who hacked their PS3 (note: hacked, not necessarily pirates) had their PS3s bricked by Sony. But this same person also said in another post they bought a PSP just because of how easy it is to hack. And then to top it all off this same person refuses to comment on his hypocrisy, and has the nerve to smite me and complain that he is being smited for "speaking out against piracy". But that's not the reason.

If this is all some misunderstanding he had the opportunity to explain his words, but he didn't. When it was revealed he said he bought a PSP for hacking purposes he ignored the post and pretended it didn't exist and then continued on bashing the PS3 hackers as if he had the moral high ground to do so.

If someone is against PS3 hacking (for legal purposes) that's fine. I don't agree with them, but I'll respect their opinion. Its the people who say they're against something but do it themselves that I don't have any respect for.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 07:37:48 PM by Chozo Ghost »
is your sanity...

Offline Shorty McNostril

  • Blue text is gone :(
  • Score: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2011, 09:28:22 PM »
Maybe so, but it all stems from the initial topic. 

Either way, you have both been slinging mud at each other to know that nothing will be resolved.  It will just escalate.  Leave it be.

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2011, 09:52:08 PM »
Chozo Ghost pretty much nailed it. I think it's time to add some new quotes to my sig.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #59 on: January 02, 2011, 10:06:30 PM »
So we don't forget:

That's the only reason I bought a used PSP, because of how easy it was to mod.

They are not even slightly morally justified to hack it. Sony had every right to take away Linux, and the reason they did has already been explained. To be honest, I would be happy if Sony found a way to brick every system that did this.

That's exactly what he said word for word. Can we have this put on the NWR Hall of Shame or something?
is your sanity...

Offline King of Twitch

  • twitch.tv/zapr2k i live for this
  • Score: 141
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #60 on: January 02, 2011, 10:11:51 PM »
Ease up winguts. It's a forum not a deathmatch
"I deem his stream to be supreme and highly esteem his Fortnite team!" - The Doritos Pope and his Mountain Dew Crew.

Offline Spak-Spang

  • The Frightened Fox
  • Score: 39
    • View Profile
    • MirandaNew.com
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #61 on: January 02, 2011, 10:58:51 PM »
I have no problem with hobbyists practicing coding through hacking and cracking security systems.  But, I am really frustrated about the lack of respect some people have for businesses and intellectual properties in today's society. 

I also do not agree that you can justify this by saying, Sony took a feature away that people wanted.  Nintendo took out Gameboy Advance support in the newer DS.  That doesn't give me the right to complain and then hack the system to play games.  The feature was removed, probably for reasons of security in the first place. 

I also really hate the analogy if you have a locked door someone must unlock it.  That is twisted logic, and if it is true...is a testament to how selfish and I would dare say evil our society is.  People should have the right to protect themselves and businesses should have the right to change their products and protect their properties.

That being said, like I started before I have no problem with the hobbyists, and I don't know if this is illegal, but they shouldn't be pressed at all for legal action.  And I agree that Sony taking an advertised feature and not just taking it away from new PS3s like backwards compatibility but taking it away from all users is pretty low. 

I am flabbergasted by your lack of curiosity. The universe itself is a big giant lock with it's secrets screaming to be unlocked. For scientists, the laws of nature is both the key and the prize. For others, Sudoku is enough of a mystery, others it is electronic devices, playing games or digging a hole in the ground to see whats underneath(I most certainly did this as a kid).

You find a locked chest or someone gave one to you are you not going to take bolt cutters to it to see what is inside? Or is the idea of Pandoras Box so strong within you that you are frozen with inaction or even flee? If you truly believe this curiosity is so selfish that you even consider it EVIL, then man should have never walked out that cave into the light and just die.

Your DS analogy is broken. Nintendo didn't retroactively disable my DS Phat GBA slot. They made a revised product while still selling the old. If this is what Sony did, then you might have the correct analogy, but this didn't happen. Try harder.

For all your love of intellectual properties and the law you forgot it is a two way street. Laws only work because there is mutual respect between the people in society as a whole to follow the law. Corporations are not people, it's a legal construct or more basically an idea to remove personal responsibility and risk for private rewards. Society as a whole acts to remedy the imbalance caused by the abuse of the law. Just because somebody wrote it down on paper and signed it mean it contains the consent of society as just and to be enforced. Otherwise you could make anything legal or illegal. The civil penalty in the US for a person for piracy is greater than that of actual theft whether it is a CD of said music or billions of dollars. The penalty effectively imposes perpetual bankruptcy for the lifetime of the defendant resulting in a permanent reduction in quality of life short of that person through chance being able to pay off the burden. How is this just? If I stole a CD and got sent to jail, I can look forward to the day that I leave jail in weeks or months time with a chance and with time to clean the record.

Piracy is only a symptom of a greater issue government losing the will of the people and is also one of the results of freedom. Not only of speech, movement and action, but information. Paradoxically, we limit these freedoms in order to enjoy them.

However reactionaries exists because some people feel that these limitations have exceeded their scope. Some are hackers, some form alternate political groups others are protesters, rioters even or the odd terrorist. The methods vary, so more agreeable than others, but they do not exist in a vacuum. An increasing number of people join these groups or give silent consent as these limitations increase without benefit to the greater society or even remotely match society even believes in regardless of benefit.

Your analogy again is flawed.  I am not saying discovery is wrong.  Searching for truth and discovery in this world is part of the human design.  But looking for how the world works is vastly different than breaking into something that is not yours to break into.  I specifically commented on the idea of a locked door just being there and it is OK for humans to try and unlock even though it is not theirs.  That is messed up and evil.  It is like the people that shatter glass or break things on the street just because they can.  It doesn't happen in every society...just societies with overly individualistic values. 

Also, just for the record I don't see the universe as an locked box, but an unlocked box ready and willing to be discovered.  So I disagree further with your statement.  However, I do agree the DS analogy is weak...which is I stated that although Sony may have had the right, it was horribly wrong to retroact it, because people bought the product with a feature included.  That said, that feature was a software feature, which is only licensed and not promised.


Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2011, 11:01:29 PM »
Eh...I'd say it was promised, but *after* you buy the console and read everything online is when you find out they can take it away. EULAs should be printed and affixed to the outer packaging of hardware and software, it's bullshit to "agree" to terms that you are completely unaware of, just because you buy the product.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline stevey

  • Young HAWNESS
  • Score: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2011, 11:51:25 PM »
Quote
Your analogy again is flawed.  I am not saying discovery is wrong.  Searching for truth and discovery in this world is part of the human design.  But looking for how the world works is vastly different than breaking into something that is not yours to break into.  I specifically commented on the idea of a locked door just being there and it is OK for humans to try and unlock even though it is not theirs.  That is messed up and evil.  It is like the people that shatter glass or break things on the street just because they can.  It doesn't happen in every society...just societies with overly individualistic values. 

No one is breaking into other people's PS3s, hacking into their computers, or going into anyone's homes but their own. Car safety is improved by crashing them, structures are improved by pushing them pass their limits, security systems are improved by breaking into them. Not doing this is beyond foolish and dangerous. Would you want to live in a society that refuses to state the maximum load (or admit that one exist) for bridge because criminals/terrorist could use that fact for evil or have it illegal for unaffiliated third parties to verify those claims even if they do? The currents system is to throw anything at the wall, call it a security system, close your eyes, and arrest any dissenting options. The very fact that you're hacking into something you own isn't wrong and shouldn't be illegal; what you choose to do afterward should be the sole problem.
My Demands and Declarations:
nVidia is CRAP!!!
BOYCOTT Digest mode and LEGEND OF OO!

Your PM box will be spammed with Girl Link porn! NO EXCEPTION!
Wii want WaveBirds

Stevey Duff
NWR HAWTNESS Inspector
NWR Staff All Powerful Satin!

Offline Morari

  • 46 DC EA D3 17 FE 45 D8 09 23 EB 97 E4 95 64 10 D4 CD B2 C2
  • Score: -7237
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #64 on: January 03, 2011, 01:20:11 AM »
I am not saying discovery is wrong.  Searching for truth and discovery in this world is part of the human design.  But looking for how the world works is vastly different than breaking into something that is not yours to break into.  I specifically commented on the idea of a locked door just being there and it is OK for humans to try and unlock even though it is not theirs.  That is messed up and evil.  It is like the people that shatter glass or break things on the street just because they can.  It doesn't happen in every society...just societies with overly individualistic values.

You bought a PS3? It is yours to break into, regardless of what some IP lawyers and the corporate backed DMCA FUD would like you to believe. You own that piece of equipment and can hack it, mod it, destroy it, paint it pink, or do with it whatever else you please. You'll void the warranty, but that's how ownership works. I'm sorry that you devalue the "individualistic values" that some of us have, and would rather we all be corporate automatons bending over for Sony's pleasure.

Why is it that you people fight so hard to keep yourselves enslaved? You don't benefit from corporate greed. Quite the contrary, you're being victimized by it, yet you'll fight tooth and nail to defend it. Odd.
"This post has been censored for your protection."

                                --Bureau of Internet Morality

Offline broodwars

  • Hunting for a Pineapple Salad
  • Score: -1011
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #65 on: January 03, 2011, 02:51:03 AM »

You bought a PS3? It is yours to break into, regardless of what some IP lawyers and the corporate backed DMCA FUD would like you to believe. You own that piece of equipment and can hack it, mod it, destroy it, paint it pink, or do with it whatever else you please. You'll void the warranty, but that's how ownership works. I'm sorry that you devalue the "individualistic values" that some of us have, and would rather we all be corporate automatons bending over for Sony's pleasure.

Why is it that you people fight so hard to keep yourselves enslaved? You don't benefit from corporate greed. Quite the contrary, you're being victimized by it, yet you'll fight tooth and nail to defend it. Odd.

Morari, you've been warned about this kind of overzealous anti-establishment rhetoric before.  Please knock it off.  You can make your point without turning the argument into the next foothold of the Rebel Alliance.
There was a Signature here. It's gone now.

Offline KDR_11k

  • boring person
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #66 on: January 03, 2011, 03:26:51 AM »
Look deeper. He's telling you to get a PC so you won't have to worry about that.

Offline Spak-Spang

  • The Frightened Fox
  • Score: 39
    • View Profile
    • MirandaNew.com
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #67 on: January 03, 2011, 04:21:31 AM »
I feel I am being taken again out of context...or people just aren't fully understanding my point of view.

I am not saying it is illegal or wrong to hack a system, mod a system, or what not.  However, people don't stop there.  If they did that is cool.  Some of the coolest computer gadgets are mods.  I do not support stealing of any kind...and yes that even includes survival theft...yet that makes more sense that most theft that goes on.  Hackers, Modders, rarely stop at legal side of the bar.  They almost always engage in some sort of theft.  And yes in this information age, I understand it is getting harder to understand intellectual properties and when you are stealing and when you are attaining it legally.  For instance, if I have the cart can I download the ROM and play it on an emulator.  Most people will agree yes, you can....but legally I do not think that is the case.  That is just example of many in this digital era. 

The analogy I was upset with was the idea that a locked door must be opened like we have this right to know whatever we want to know or obtain what we want to obtain because it is there and we have the ability to do it.  To me that is a self serving and pretty evil attitude.  It is an attitude that doesn't exist in every society...but usually in the higher individualistic societies. 

Do I want discovery to stop?  No.  Do I think we should respect every entities properities including corporations?  Yes.  Do I think corporations go to far protecting their precious things and do foolish stupid things?  Yes.  Do I think we are all slaves to corporations?  No.  That is silly...at any moment I can stop buying and giving a corporation my money.

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2011, 05:18:50 AM »
Sony marketed the PS3 as a Supercomputer from the time they announced it. What the hell good is a supercomputer if it can only play video games and blu-ray movies? Without the ability to install Other OS the potential of the hardware is wasted. Sony is facing lawsuits for removing that feature. Let's see what the courts say before saying Sony "had the right to remove it".

The last thing on NASA and the USAF's mind is pirating PS3 games. They (among others) were clustering thousands of PS3s together and using it as a massive supercomputer for science or whatever else they do. They certainly weren't interested in pirating free copies of Ratchet and Clank. Sony pulled the plug on it though. Ripping off consumers is one thing, but it probably isn't wise to mess with the government. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how all this plays out, but now that the PS3 is permanently hacked anyway and with the pressure of the lawsuits we may see the Other OS feature be restored.

Personally, I hope Sony comes to their senses and does bring the feature back. Sure, people can do it anyway thanks to the hack, but its just not right that someone has to resort to hacks to use something they paid for and were promised and should rightfully be theirs to use. After all, Sony did market the thing as a "supercomputer", right? And people/organizations WERE actually using it as such. Is it right that Sony went and pulled the rug out from under them when they may have invested tons of money into building these massive PS3 clusters?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 05:33:51 AM by Chozo Ghost »
is your sanity...

Offline Spak-Spang

  • The Frightened Fox
  • Score: 39
    • View Profile
    • MirandaNew.com
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2011, 07:09:46 AM »
I completely agree with that. 

Offline SixthAngel

  • Score: 18
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #70 on: January 03, 2011, 07:23:52 AM »
Sony marketed the PS3 as a Supercomputer from the time they announced it. What the hell good is a supercomputer if it can only play video games and blu-ray movies? Without the ability to install Other OS the potential of the hardware is wasted. Sony is facing lawsuits for removing that feature. Let's see what the courts say before saying Sony "had the right to remove it".

The default postion should be that Sony is wrong because there are other cases that involve things like this and you can't take away something from a product that is already sold.  The other OS was even in some advertising.  We should not really have to wait for the courts because the differences between those cases and this are negligible.  Sony is going to try to pull some bullshit about software and service but everybody can see its bullshit.  Changing it so people can't hack is not a legitimate reason to remove an advertised feature from customers who bought said feature.  This company, like most, has no problem with going to court for potential short term gain even if they are wrong, look back at the rumble suits.

Offline Enner

  • My sales numbers, let me show you them
  • Score: 34
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #71 on: January 03, 2011, 08:40:54 AM »
Sony marketed the PS3 as a Supercomputer from the time they announced it. What the hell good is a supercomputer if it can only play video games and blu-ray movies? Without the ability to install Other OS the potential of the hardware is wasted. Sony is facing lawsuits for removing that feature. Let's see what the courts say before saying Sony "had the right to remove it".

The last thing on NASA and the USAF's mind is pirating PS3 games. They (among others) were clustering thousands of PS3s together and using it as a massive supercomputer for science or whatever else they do. They certainly weren't interested in pirating free copies of Ratchet and Clank. Sony pulled the plug on it though. Ripping off consumers is one thing, but it probably isn't wise to mess with the government. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how all this plays out, but now that the PS3 is permanently hacked anyway and with the pressure of the lawsuits we may see the Other OS feature be restored.

Personally, I hope Sony comes to their senses and does bring the feature back. Sure, people can do it anyway thanks to the hack, but its just not right that someone has to resort to hacks to use something they paid for and were promised and should rightfully be theirs to use. After all, Sony did market the thing as a "supercomputer", right? And people/organizations WERE actually using it as such. Is it right that Sony went and pulled the rug out from under them when they may have invested tons of money into building these massive PS3 clusters?

They could just refuse the firmware update, turn off the auto update, and never have the cluster have access to the internet.

Now, NASA and USAF won't be able to buy Linux-able PS3s, but they have other supercomputer options. It's Sony's loss of orders from NASA, USAF, and other organizations but it looks like they aren't in the business of supplying cheap supercomputers.

Offline Morari

  • 46 DC EA D3 17 FE 45 D8 09 23 EB 97 E4 95 64 10 D4 CD B2 C2
  • Score: -7237
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #72 on: January 03, 2011, 10:39:57 AM »
I feel I am being taken again out of context.

You're right. I took your statement out of context. I did so on purpose. Not to undermine your points, but to make my own. What I quoted was relevant to how a lot of people think and feel. It's relevant to how corporations take rights away from consumers and leave us all with subpar products. I didn't mean to single you out, nor was my statement precisely about you. I just used your sentence as a catalyst. Overall, it seems like you're keeping a fairly balanced viewpoint.

I will say however...

Do I think we are all slaves to corporations?  No.  That is silly...at any moment I can stop buying and giving a corporation my money.

I would say that we already are corporate slaves to a large extent when corporations pay world governments to pass laws that serve only them, and not the rights of the people.
"This post has been censored for your protection."

                                --Bureau of Internet Morality

Offline oohhboy

  • Forum Friend or Foe?
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #73 on: January 03, 2011, 12:25:31 PM »
I feel I am being taken again out of context...or people just aren't fully understanding my point of view.

I am not saying it is illegal or wrong to hack a system, mod a system, or what not.  However, people don't stop there.  If they did that is cool.  Some of the coolest computer gadgets are mods.  I do not support stealing of any kind...and yes that even includes survival theft...yet that makes more sense that most theft that goes on.  Hackers, Modders, rarely stop at legal side of the bar.  They almost always engage in some sort of theft.  And yes in this information age, I understand it is getting harder to understand intellectual properties and when you are stealing and when you are attaining it legally.  For instance, if I have the cart can I download the ROM and play it on an emulator.  Most people will agree yes, you can....but legally I do not think that is the case.  That is just example of many in this digital era. 

The analogy I was upset with was the idea that a locked door must be opened like we have this right to know whatever we want to know or obtain what we want to obtain because it is there and we have the ability to do it.  To me that is a self serving and pretty evil attitude.  It is an attitude that doesn't exist in every society...but usually in the higher individualistic societies. 

Do I want discovery to stop?  No.  Do I think we should respect every entities properties including corporations?  Yes.  Do I think corporations go to far protecting their precious things and do foolish stupid things?  Yes.  Do I think we are all slaves to corporations?  No.  That is silly...at any moment I can stop buying and giving a corporation my money.

 It is the individual's choice as to what to do thing the information once that lock has been undone. At the bottom of Pandora's box was Hope. Times and time again needless suffering has occurred because knowledge has been missed used. Yet we are still here, we have grown stronger, better from that same knowledge. The universe is locked to us. These locks can be real or metaphorical. We cannot go to Mars because we lack the tools to do so and until recently we could not use a PS3 as we see fit until these tools were released.

There is nothing individualist or selfish about what they did. They saw something to be discovered and gifted it to the world. Had they commercialised it for their own profit, you might have a point.
 
 To these people, unlocking the PS3 is like going to Mars. It would be selfish of them not to share the fruits of this knowledge as it is a benefit to society as a whole. Sure Sony might lose out, everybody else gains. What others do with this knowledge is their own damn business, otherwise you could regress indefinitely to the inventor of any item or idea that harms another both legally and morally.
 
 What you are doing to these people and others like them is the equivalent of what Zeus did to Prometheus. I dare not claim that hacking a PS3 is on the same level is stealing fire from the Gods and giving it to mankind. But what these people did, is of the same spirit. They didn't do it so they can be tied to a metaphorical rock to get their livers torn out each day. Yet here you are, playing the eagle each and every day.

Corporations are useful things. They gather wealth and talent to make something greater than the sum of their parts. No problem with that. In some ways, not too different from government and both serve a very useful purpose. However there is a couple of problems with corporations.

Corporations one and only goal is to gather wealth and any action that can lead to more wealth. The second is that corporations are quasi immortal. While the founder or other strong individuals may set the direction of a corporation, however his or she influence only extends as far as they are in power or lives. Once this influence is gone, a corporation reverts back to it's natural state which is to gather wealth by any means. Corporations transcend governments. I mentioned before corporations are not people, but yet they have voice within government. Government are meant to serve the people, to the will of the people and the consent of the people. Corporations not only exists over multiple countries, but have influence over multiple countries. Corporations have no concept of consequence beyond their own portfolio and limitations governments can impose. But corporations can and does influence government resulting in unnecessary harm to others and environment as they use up public goods like air and water in order to generate more wealth.

Did I mention Corporations are very useful things? They have helped mankind accomplish many great and useful things. Commercialised bits of science so they can be brought to the every Joe Blow in many practical forms and costs. The modern world wouldn't exist with out them. They allow the pooling of wealth and talent in a secure environment from sources of people who would rather kill each other. However I believe that they have grown too powerful. As greed given form, they must be limited and controlled produce something positive or at least, do no evil.

Like many other corporations before, Sony has over stepped and must be punished. But given the balance of power and the general brokeness of the US legal institutions, by the time we get a ruling negative or positive, the PS3 will be obsolete. The gain to society would be lost to time. Sony wins. Look at the Exxon Vades Spill through the use of endless litigation reduced the penalty to a fraction of the damage, yet corporations can multiply penalties to those individuals they sue to multiple Hundards of Thousands of Times. Yeah it's a comedy site, but what better way to point of the absurdity of it all, so sue me. I for one don't see the problem for taking action that are extra legal against corporations should they not only break our laws, but make them for it's own benefit and our collective detriment.

That said, what action you take is up to you. I could consider you the better man for not breaking the law no matter how unjust they many be.

Quote from: Edmund Burke?

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

Perhaps getting the order of the words correct helps with the meaning. It often does so in the English language, unlike some other languages where it sometimes makes little difference. The above quote is attributed to Edmund Burke, a well-known 18th century political philosopher. It has been quoted often in recent years, especially by reform candidates for public office, sometimes without appropriate attribution. It means that evil is not neutral; if you and/or society stop resisting evil, it will continue to grow and spread. It is a call to arms for people to stop being complacent.
Evil is not neutral and there can be no neutrality exercised toward it. Anyone who is not against it is perforce in favor of it.

Source
I want to work for a corporation one day, as they can offer opportunities and benefits I can't have otherwise, take pride in something bigger, but not if it costs me my soul. Corporations can be a force for good, but this runs contrary to it's true nature so must be restrained, questioned and challenged like our governments so it can work for us, not us for it.

Edit: typos
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 12:47:53 PM by oohhboy »
I'm Lacus. I'm fine as Lacus!
Pffh. Toilet paper? What do you think cats are for?

Offline Crimm

  • Get your unfiltered Bowsette here!
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: 1147
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #74 on: January 03, 2011, 12:41:04 PM »

You bought a PS3? It is yours to break into, regardless of what some IP lawyers and the corporate backed DMCA FUD would like you to believe. You own that piece of equipment and can hack it, mod it, destroy it, paint it pink, or do with it whatever else you please. You'll void the warranty, but that's how ownership works. I'm sorry that you devalue the "individualistic values" that some of us have, and would rather we all be corporate automatons bending over for Sony's pleasure.

Why is it that you people fight so hard to keep yourselves enslaved? You don't benefit from corporate greed. Quite the contrary, you're being victimized by it, yet you'll fight tooth and nail to defend it. Odd.

Morari, you've been warned about this kind of overzealous anti-establishment rhetoric before.  Please knock it off.  You can make your point without turning the argument into the next foothold of the Rebel Alliance.


I approve of staging insurrections on our forums.
James Jones
Mondo Editor
Nintendo World Report

Offline ShyGuy

  • Fight Me!
  • *
  • Score: -9660
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #75 on: January 03, 2011, 04:12:48 PM »

You bought a PS3? It is yours to break into, regardless of what some IP lawyers and the corporate backed DMCA FUD would like you to believe. You own that piece of equipment and can hack it, mod it, destroy it, paint it pink, or do with it whatever else you please. You'll void the warranty, but that's how ownership works. I'm sorry that you devalue the "individualistic values" that some of us have, and would rather we all be corporate automatons bending over for Sony's pleasure.

Why is it that you people fight so hard to keep yourselves enslaved? You don't benefit from corporate greed. Quite the contrary, you're being victimized by it, yet you'll fight tooth and nail to defend it. Odd.

Morari, you've been warned about this kind of overzealous anti-establishment rhetoric before.  Please knock it off.  You can make your point without turning the argument into the next foothold of the Rebel Alliance.


I approve of staging insurrections on our forums.

Quote and copied to pull out later this year. REMEMBER REMEMBER THE SOMETHING OF SOMEVEMBER

Offline BlackNMild2k1

  • Animal Crossing Hustler
  • Score: 409
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #76 on: January 03, 2011, 04:27:49 PM »
So while you guys were arguing......
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=25136296&postcount=1 | http://twitter.com/Mathieulh#
Apparently the PS3's Bluray encryption has been completely hacked and so has the PSP.... :/

Encrypt and sign any/everything on PS3 & PSP.
The Playstation Family is now fully exposed. They have all the keys to everything and there is no firmware fix for either product.

Offline Stogi

  • The Stratos You Should All Try To Be Like
  • Score: 18
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #77 on: January 03, 2011, 04:42:32 PM »
Hells yeah.

I don't want to jump in this argument, even though it's been fascinating. I just want to throw in my opinion real quickly. And that is, simply as a person that wants to take full advantage of any piece of equipment I own, I feel that this news is a god send.

And yes, I have and will continue to backup games I do not own (I've only done it once, but I went to gamestop and bought like 15 used games, backed them up, and then returned them. The story I told them was funny as hell). I'm not rich. I can't afford to pay around 70 bucks for games I barely have time for anyway. All the big games I've wanted I've bought, but I don't think I'll be doing that anymore. Sorry but I'd rather pay for musical equipment than support a developer.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 04:49:51 PM by The Unagi »
black fairy tales are better at sports

Offline broodwars

  • Hunting for a Pineapple Salad
  • Score: -1011
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #78 on: January 03, 2011, 04:53:30 PM »
And yes, I have and will continue to backup games I do not own (I've only done it once, but I went to gamestop and bought like 15 used games, backed them up, and then returned them. The story I told them was funny as hell). I'm not rich. I can't afford to pay around 70 bucks for games I barely have time for anyway. All the big games I've wanted I've bought, but I don't think I'll be doing that anymore. Sorry but I'd rather pay for musical equipment than support a developer.

OK, can we all agree that this attitude is something we can all condemn?  C'mon, man, if you don't want to support the developers or even support the Used Games Industry, don't play games (especially if you don't get around to playing them anyway).
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 04:56:33 PM by broodwars »
There was a Signature here. It's gone now.

Offline Adrock

  • Chill, Valentine
  • Score: 138
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #79 on: January 03, 2011, 05:04:57 PM »
You can make your point without turning the argument into the next foothold of the Rebel Alliance.
I approve of staging insurrections on our forums.
I didn't read most of this argument because I don't hack anything. In fact, I may be the only person in the universe left with an unhacked PSP. More to the point, I believe Crimm won this debate by default despite not contributing anything to the discussion. No other points need be discussed. Please close this thread.

Offline oohhboy

  • Forum Friend or Foe?
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #80 on: January 03, 2011, 05:15:01 PM »
And yes, I have and will continue to backup games I do not own (I've only done it once, but I went to gamestop and bought like 15 used games, backed them up, and then returned them. The story I told them was funny as hell). I'm not rich. I can't afford to pay around 70 bucks for games I barely have time for anyway. All the big games I've wanted I've bought, but I don't think I'll be doing that anymore. Sorry but I'd rather pay for musical equipment than support a developer.

OK, can we all agree that this attitude is something we can all condemn?  C'mon, man, if you don't want to support the developers or even support the Used Games Industry, don't play games (especially if you don't get around to playing them anyway).

Just to piss you off a little, I have this to say to you - "Quite frankly my dear, I don't give a damn".
I'm Lacus. I'm fine as Lacus!
Pffh. Toilet paper? What do you think cats are for?

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #81 on: January 03, 2011, 05:48:18 PM »
The new PSP info is awesome as well. Jesus, what a bad couple of weeks for Sony.
Sony marketed the PS3 as a Supercomputer from the time they announced it. What the hell good is a supercomputer if it can only play video games and blu-ray movies? Without the ability to install Other OS the potential of the hardware is wasted. Sony is facing lawsuits for removing that feature. Let's see what the courts say before saying Sony "had the right to remove it".

The last thing on NASA and the USAF's mind is pirating PS3 games. They (among others) were clustering thousands of PS3s together and using it as a massive supercomputer for science or whatever else they do. They certainly weren't interested in pirating free copies of Ratchet and Clank. Sony pulled the plug on it though. Ripping off consumers is one thing, but it probably isn't wise to mess with the government. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how all this plays out, but now that the PS3 is permanently hacked anyway and with the pressure of the lawsuits we may see the Other OS feature be restored.

Personally, I hope Sony comes to their senses and does bring the feature back. Sure, people can do it anyway thanks to the hack, but its just not right that someone has to resort to hacks to use something they paid for and were promised and should rightfully be theirs to use. After all, Sony did market the thing as a "supercomputer", right? And people/organizations WERE actually using it as such. Is it right that Sony went and pulled the rug out from under them when they may have invested tons of money into building these massive PS3 clusters?

They could just refuse the firmware update, turn off the auto update, and never have the cluster have access to the internet.

Now, NASA and USAF won't be able to buy Linux-able PS3s, but they have other supercomputer options. It's Sony's loss of orders from NASA, USAF, and other organizations but it looks like they aren't in the business of supplying cheap supercomputers.
Doesn't matter if they turn off updates and everything, the original PS3 models are *extremely* faulty, and I'd be surprised if half of the PS3s that the USAF bought back in the day are still working.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #82 on: January 03, 2011, 05:55:17 PM »
I'm wondering if these latest developments might have some influence on Sony's plans for their next console. Since this generation is pretty much fucked for them I wonder if this is going to spur them into rushing out their next console sooner than they otherwise would have. They were talking about a 10 year lifecycle for the thing, but its only 4 years old and its now completely open to anyone and everyone. Would they really want to carry on for another 6+ years with something where piracy is now unstoppable and rampant?

Nintendo and Microsoft surely have their successor consoles in the works and likely to be released in the near future, so I was doubtful about that 10 year lifecycle thing to begin with, but now that the PS3 is hacked and as easily accessible as Lindsay Lohan after a few drinks, you'd think Sony would want to move on even more. It is a shame though (for them), because from what I understand they were just finally getting around to it being profitable. Oh well.

On a somewhat brighter note, this news might actually boost PS3 hardware sales. Now granted, many of those sales may be to people only interested in pirating/homebrew/linux, but I read somewhere the PS3 manufacturing costs are down to $240 which means at $299 they are no longer losing money on the hardware, and actually making some profit. So even if people are buying the hardware without buying any games its still profit for Sony on some level.

Doesn't matter if they turn off updates and everything, the original PS3 models are *extremely* faulty, and I'd be surprised if half of the PS3s that the USAF bought back in the day are still working.

I was thinking that same thing myself. And its going to be next to impossible to find working original model PS3s which haven't had their firmware's upgraded past 3.21 (or whatever the cutoff version was) in order to replace the dead units. I would imagine they see far heavier usage than an average consumer would put theirs through.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 06:06:00 PM by Chozo Ghost »
is your sanity...

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

  • HI I'M CRAZY
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
    • Six Sided Video
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #83 on: January 03, 2011, 06:00:21 PM »
I'm wondering if these latest developments might have some influence on Sony's plans for their next console. Since this generation is pretty much fucked for them I wonder if this is going to spur them into rushing out their next console sooner than they otherwise would have. They were talking about a 10 year lifecycle for the thing, but its only 4 years old and its now completely open to anyone and everyone. Would they really want to carry on for another 6+ years with something where piracy is now unstoppable and rampant?

Nintendo and Microsoft surely have their successor consoles in the works and likely to be released in the near future, so I was doubtful about that 10 year lifecycle thing to begin with, but now that the PS3 is hacked and as easily accessible as Lindsay Lohan after a few drinks, you'd think Sony would want to move on even more. It is a shame though (for them), because from what I understand they were just finally getting around to it being profitable. Oh well.

The Rat would not appreciate those sentiments. Please close this forum.
:: Six Sided Video .com ~ Pietriots.com ::
PRO IS SERIOUS. GET SERIOUS.

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #84 on: January 03, 2011, 06:43:57 PM »
I'm wondering if these latest developments might have some influence on Sony's plans for their next console. Since this generation is pretty much fucked for them I wonder if this is going to spur them into rushing out their next console sooner than they otherwise would have. They were talking about a 10 year lifecycle for the thing, but its only 4 years old and its now completely open to anyone and everyone. Would they really want to carry on for another 6+ years with something where piracy is now unstoppable and rampant?

Nintendo and Microsoft surely have their successor consoles in the works and likely to be released in the near future, so I was doubtful about that 10 year lifecycle thing to begin with, but now that the PS3 is hacked and as easily accessible as Lindsay Lohan after a few drinks, you'd think Sony would want to move on even more. It is a shame though (for them), because from what I understand they were just finally getting around to it being profitable. Oh well.

The Rat would not appreciate those sentiments. Please close this forum.

Pardon my ignorance. What is The Rat? What sentiments?
is your sanity...

Offline Morari

  • 46 DC EA D3 17 FE 45 D8 09 23 EB 97 E4 95 64 10 D4 CD B2 C2
  • Score: -7237
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #85 on: January 03, 2011, 07:15:08 PM »
The Rat, he's coming!!!
"This post has been censored for your protection."

                                --Bureau of Internet Morality

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

  • HI I'M CRAZY
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
    • Six Sided Video
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #86 on: January 03, 2011, 08:03:38 PM »
I'm wondering if these latest developments might have some influence on Sony's plans for their next console. Since this generation is pretty much fucked for them I wonder if this is going to spur them into rushing out their next console sooner than they otherwise would have. They were talking about a 10 year lifecycle for the thing, but its only 4 years old and its now completely open to anyone and everyone. Would they really want to carry on for another 6+ years with something where piracy is now unstoppable and rampant?

Nintendo and Microsoft surely have their successor consoles in the works and likely to be released in the near future, so I was doubtful about that 10 year lifecycle thing to begin with, but now that the PS3 is hacked and as easily accessible as Lindsay Lohan after a few drinks, you'd think Sony would want to move on even more. It is a shame though (for them), because from what I understand they were just finally getting around to it being profitable. Oh well.

The Rat would not appreciate those sentiments. Please close this forum.

Pardon my ignorance. What is The Rat? What sentiments?

That's why you're still a kid.
:: Six Sided Video .com ~ Pietriots.com ::
PRO IS SERIOUS. GET SERIOUS.

Offline Stogi

  • The Stratos You Should All Try To Be Like
  • Score: 18
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #87 on: January 03, 2011, 08:33:43 PM »
And yes, I have and will continue to backup games I do not own (I've only done it once, but I went to gamestop and bought like 15 used games, backed them up, and then returned them. The story I told them was funny as hell). I'm not rich. I can't afford to pay around 70 bucks for games I barely have time for anyway. All the big games I've wanted I've bought, but I don't think I'll be doing that anymore. Sorry but I'd rather pay for musical equipment than support a developer.

OK, can we all agree that this attitude is something we can all condemn?  C'mon, man, if you don't want to support the developers or even support the Used Games Industry, don't play games (especially if you don't get around to playing them anyway).

In all honesty, I only did that for my brother. He's been busting his ass in Med School, so I decided to jailbreak his PS3 and hook him up with a **** ton of games. I didn't want to pay roughly ~300 bucks, so I did the crafty thing and "rented" them from Gamestop. I'm not going to lie to you and say that what I did wasn't stealing, and I'm not going to say that since Gamestop are bastards who steal from the developers with used title sales that what I did was morally justified. What I did was work the loopholes. I've haven't lost any sleep over it and you shouldn't either.
black fairy tales are better at sports

Offline ThePerm

  • predicted it first.
  • Score: 64
    • View Profile
NWR has permission to use any tentative mockup/artwork I post

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #89 on: January 03, 2011, 09:30:21 PM »
With Sony only just starting to profit on the PS3 last year, I don't think they are even considering the next system.

Brood, I have to agree with you on the GameStop issue. Even if you get past the legal issues; it is sleazy to buy a used game, copy it, then return the game.
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline ShyGuy

  • Fight Me!
  • *
  • Score: -9660
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #90 on: January 03, 2011, 09:38:21 PM »
Good heavens. we need to ban some people. WHERE ARE YOU PALE?

On a side note, I have yet to buy a game for my PS3. No illegal games, I just rarely use it.

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #91 on: January 03, 2011, 09:40:08 PM »
Why? Because I don't condone illegal activities?
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #92 on: January 03, 2011, 09:44:17 PM »
Even if you get past the legal issues; it is sleazy to buy a used game, copy it, then return the game.

Yeah it is. Its kinda like buying a PSP just to mod it to play pirated games.

I applauded Unagi. Not because I approve of piracy or what he did, but because I noticed you smitted him and I don't think you have the right to throw stones when you do the same thing yourself. Let those who are not guilty of piracy cast the first smite.

Why? Because I don't condone illegal activities?

Haha! That's funny.

Everyone already knows the truth about you so STFU.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 09:47:53 PM by Chozo Ghost »
is your sanity...

Offline ShyGuy

  • Fight Me!
  • *
  • Score: -9660
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #93 on: January 03, 2011, 09:45:31 PM »
I wasn't talking about you, Thomas Jane, I was talking about the dirty pirates!

Offline stevey

  • Young HAWNESS
  • Score: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #94 on: January 03, 2011, 10:00:22 PM »
And yes, I have and will continue to backup games I do not own (I've only done it once, but I went to gamestop and bought like 15 used games, backed them up, and then returned them. The story I told them was funny as hell). I'm not rich. I can't afford to pay around 70 bucks for games I barely have time for anyway. All the big games I've wanted I've bought, but I don't think I'll be doing that anymore. Sorry but I'd rather pay for musical equipment than support a developer.

OK, can we all agree that this attitude is something we can all condemn?  C'mon, man, if you don't want to support the developers or even support the Used Games Industry, don't play games (especially if you don't get around to playing them anyway).

In all honesty, I only did that for my brother. He's been busting his ass in Med School, so I decided to jailbreak his PS3 and hook him up with a **** ton of games. I didn't want to pay roughly ~300 bucks, so I did the crafty thing and "rented" them from Gamestop. I'm not going to lie to you and say that what I did wasn't stealing, and I'm not going to say that since Gamestop are bastards who steal from the developers with used title sales that what I did was morally justified. What I did was work the loopholes. I've haven't lost any sleep over it and you shouldn't either.

This is why we can't have nice things. And buying used games period is no different from piracy when you can buy new. If it wasn't for people like you we wouldn't have closed systems. It's not gamestop fault for allowing selling and return the games nor the crackers fault for breaking the security to allow them to be copied, it's the people that uses them to steal (and Sony's for failing to uphold their promise to protect their I.P. rights and system security due to stupidity) that are solely to blame.

Even if you get past the legal issues; it is sleazy to buy a used game, copy it, then return the game.

Yeah it is. Its kinda like buying a PSP just to mod it to play pirated games.

I applauded Unagi. Not because I approve of piracy or what he did, but because I noticed you smitted him and I don't think you have the right to throw stones when you do the same thing yourself. Let those who are not guilty of piracy cast the first smite.

Why? Because I don't condone illegal activities?

Haha! That's funny.

Everyone already knows the truth about you so STFU.

Stop attacking TJ, no one thinks he pirates and everyone know he's a hypocrite already.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 10:10:11 PM by stevey »
My Demands and Declarations:
nVidia is CRAP!!!
BOYCOTT Digest mode and LEGEND OF OO!

Your PM box will be spammed with Girl Link porn! NO EXCEPTION!
Wii want WaveBirds

Stevey Duff
NWR HAWTNESS Inspector
NWR Staff All Powerful Satin!

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #95 on: January 03, 2011, 10:11:01 PM »
and I'm not going to say that since Gamestop are bastards who steal from the developers with used title sales that what I did was morally justified. What I did was work the loopholes.

How are they stealing? Is a car dealership "stealing" from car companies by selling used cars? Is the Volunteers of America stealing from clothing companies by selling used clothes? Are people selling stuff on eBay or garage sales stealing? No, because selling used products isn't wrong.

For the record, I do NOT pirate games and the reason I am against modding in general is because sadly most people will use it to pirate games or do very shady/borderline illegal stuff (like ripping a game and then returning it). If there was a way to let people mod a system without being able to put copyrighted games on it, I would support it. That is why I am so against it, whether I modded in the past or not doesn't matter. I think it's fine, for example, to want to be able to play DVDs on your Wii since the ability is there and they promised it 4 years ago.
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline BlackNMild2k1

  • Animal Crossing Hustler
  • Score: 409
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #96 on: January 03, 2011, 10:18:01 PM »
whether I modded in the past or not doesn't matter. I think it's fine, for example, to want to be able to play DVDs on your Wii since the ability is there and they promised it 4 years ago.

So now it's ok to hack a Wii to get DVD playback, a feature that was never promised, but only mentioned back before the system came out., but you should have your PS3 bricked for hacking it to put your Linux back on there which was a feature that was present when the system was purchased.....

you really should stop typing and think about what you are posting before you hit send. The self-righteous hypocrisy is strong in you.

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #97 on: January 03, 2011, 10:23:30 PM »
So now it's ok to hack a Wii to get DVD playback, a feature that was never promised, but only mentioned back before the system came out., but you should have your PS3 bricked for hacking it to put your Linux back on there which was a feature that was present when the system was purchased.....

you really should stop typing and think about what you are posting before you hit send. The self-righteous hypocrisy is strong in you.

Here is Reggie flat out promising a Wii with DVD playback: http://www.gamepro.com/article/news/94095/nintendo-q-a-reggie-fils-aimes-talks-future-of-wii/ (the specific quote from him is "You probably know that a premium version of Wii with a DVD player will be available in the future in some markets."). This was from a January 2007 interview.
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline Shorty McNostril

  • Blue text is gone :(
  • Score: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #98 on: January 03, 2011, 10:27:55 PM »
Maybe so, but they didn't build, advertise and sell a system with the dvd feature and remove it later after people had spent money on it.  No shop standard Wii has dvd playback, nor was it ever sold in that capacity.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 10:29:27 PM by Shorty McNostril »

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #99 on: January 03, 2011, 10:31:55 PM »
BnM hit the nail on the head. I applaud him.

Quote
I think it's fine, for example, to want to be able to play DVDs on your Wii since the ability is there and they promised it 4 years ago.

The ability to install/use Linux is in the PS3 as well, and was promised by Sony. Your double standards are inconsistent and make no sense.

ETA: and as Shorty just pointed out, the Other OS feature in the PS3 was more than just promised, it was actually included in the product for a time. Maybe Nintendo promised DVD playback, but at least they didn't include it and then strip it out the way Sony did with Other OS. Its one thing to never deliver something, and another thing to actually deliver and then renege it.

Quote
the reason I am against modding in general

But you admitted you bought a used PSP for the one and only reason that it was easy to mod. Were you lying then or are you lying now? Or did someone hijack your account a few days ago and post that in your name just to make you look bad? Please explain instead of being evasive.

Quote
whether I modded in the past or not doesn't matter.

It does matter, because you are so against it now and you wish for people who mod to have their PS3 bricked. Would you be okay if your modded PSP (and whatever other modded hardware you have) ends up getting bricked a long with everyone else's stuff? You are brandishing a torch and pitchfork and saying these people who mod are pirates and should be punished, but what about yourself?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 10:37:08 PM by Chozo Ghost »
is your sanity...

Offline Shorty McNostril

  • Blue text is gone :(
  • Score: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #100 on: January 03, 2011, 10:33:06 PM »
Sorry for the double post, but think about it TJ.  Show some empathy and put yourself in a situation where you dropped hundreds of dollars on a PS3,planning to take advantage of the OtherOS feature.  (Especially if it was your primary reason for purchase).  A few months later Sony up and says, "Sorry fellas, but we a disabling that feature.  To all you who bought the PS3 for that reason, here is my middle finger"

How would you feel?

Sure, as you pointed out they legally have the right to do as they please.  But was it really the right thing to do?

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #101 on: January 03, 2011, 10:48:03 PM »
I would be upset, but if I really wanted it I could have just avoided the update (I know some people online who bought a second PS3 for this reason).  I agree others had a right to be upset too, I am just not convinced that any of this outcry was because of it. I sure as heck don't think it had any impact on people trying to hack the system, they would have continued to do so even with OtherOS still on it.

Chozo, way to pick certain parts of my post only. First, I said in general I am against modding (and I even said why); not against it all the time. Second, people can change their minds over time; do you feel the same way about everything as you always have? The fact that I had a modded PSP was why I never connected it to PSN when I had the system.
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #102 on: January 03, 2011, 10:51:47 PM »
Well, okay then. But that said, I really don't think you should be so hard on other modders and be wishing for their stuff to get bricked. I also don't think you should be saying all modders are pirates because if you were a modder and you didn't pirate then why couldn't others be like that too? You were being hateful and wishing harm to people who were only doing something you had done yourself.
is your sanity...

Offline Shorty McNostril

  • Blue text is gone :(
  • Score: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #103 on: January 03, 2011, 10:54:43 PM »
So we have an ultimatum? 

Option 1:  Disable system updates, thereby missing out on any new features, updates and potentially a few hundred thousand more things (I have never used a PS3 and am completely unfamiliar with the online service so please forgive any discrepancies I may mention by mistake)

Option 2:  Allow the update and miss out on the Other OS feature.

Option 3:  Buy a second PS3, one for updating, the other for Linux.

Does this sound like a fair decision to be forced to make?

Edit: Typos.

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #104 on: January 03, 2011, 11:00:11 PM »
I know not all modders are pirates, but I think it's a safe bet that more than half (probably way more) of modders are indeed pirates. I know Wii has some good homebrew software, I even enjoyed some of them. Maybe my words was harsher than they could have been, but people were acting like removing OtherOS justifies hacking the system or that pirates make up only a small percentage of modders.

As for bricking, maybe I should refine my statement and say that Sony should find a way to brick just systems with copyrighted software on it that isn't supposed to be on it.

Shorty, I was just pointing out that there are options out there for people who wanted it.
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline Shorty McNostril

  • Blue text is gone :(
  • Score: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #105 on: January 03, 2011, 11:03:31 PM »
Quote
Shorty, I was just pointing out that there are options out there for people who wanted it.

I realize that.  But the point I am in turn trying to make is that none of them are viable.  You do one thing, you miss out on a heap of other things.  Or you have to drop another $500 on a new PS3.

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #106 on: January 04, 2011, 12:52:17 AM »
Pirates are often kind of paranoid...
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline ThePerm

  • predicted it first.
  • Score: 64
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #107 on: January 04, 2011, 12:56:35 AM »
NWR has permission to use any tentative mockup/artwork I post

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #108 on: January 04, 2011, 09:30:24 AM »
I would be upset, but if I really wanted it I could have just avoided the update (I know some people online who bought a second PS3 for this reason).  I agree others had a right to be upset too, I am just not convinced that any of this outcry was because of it. I sure as heck don't think it had any impact on people trying to hack the system, they would have continued to do so even with OtherOS still on it.

Ok, now we should either avoid updates (which means you can't play any game that came out after they started included 3.21 firmware on games), or buy another console...

Quote
Chozo, way to pick certain parts of my post only. First, I said in general I am against modding (and I even said why); not against it all the time. Second, people can change their minds over time; do you feel the same way about everything as you always have? The fact that I had a modded PSP was why I never connected it to PSN when I had the system.

...it seems that against modding "in general" means that it's okay for you to do it, but nobody else can, and no one else has a "legitimate" reason like you do...

For the record, I do NOT pirate games and the reason I am against modding in general is because sadly most people will use it to pirate games or do very shady/borderline illegal stuff (like ripping a game and then returning it). If there was a way to let people mod a system without being able to put copyrighted games on it, I would support it. That is why I am so against it, whether I modded in the past or not doesn't matter. I think it's fine, for example, to want to be able to play DVDs on your Wii since the ability is there and they promised it 4 years ago.

...and your reason to mod the Wii (as has been pointed out) was to enable a feature that it never had - but modding the PS3 to re-install a feature that was promised, included, and then taken away (and also to be able to play homebrew, just like you do on the Wii) is wrong. I'd like to point out that the PS3 was hacked by the same people that hacked the Wii (and allowed DVD playback), so you're "ulterior motive" theory seems to be either A. complete bullshit, or B. further proof that you're a hypocrite. I'd also like to point out that Reggie never promised that the Wii that you bought would *ever* play DVDs, he mentioned that there will be a version that does...in the future...in some markets. There's still time for Nintendo to release a DVD-enabled Wii in China or Korea (I don't think it'll ever happen either), but your justification is bullshit - especially since by enabling DVD playback, you're not supporting the people that Nintendo needs to license DVD playback from. Linux is free...no royalties. If you have the audacity to suggest that people either avoid updates (again, which means no new games), or buy another PS3, then you certainly could go buy a cheap-ass DVD player. You also never mentioned why you modded your PSP (to play pirated games, I imagine), but that leads me to this...

PSP keys found inside the PS3, PSP now 100% unlocked too

Way to go Sony. Someone's gonna get fired over this ****. It was bad enough with the PSP already, but at least they were making progress with the security.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #109 on: January 04, 2011, 12:45:04 PM »
Boy did this thread blow up while I was away.  The way I see it is like this.

Pirating games is stealing and is thus wrong.  Sony disabling a feature on products people already owned is also wrong.  I'm not even looking into laws here, this is just simple, rational "golden rule" kind of stuff.

Hacking a PS3 to access the feature that Sony disabled is not wrong and has no ill intentions.  Regarding morals or ethics or whatever term you want to use, intent makes all the difference.  There is no intention in such an action to hurt Sony.  The intention is merely to get back what was taken away.  I don't think you're a bad person if you steal back what was stolen from you.  Now if you steal something extra as "interest", well, now things are open to discussion.

There is however a moral dilemma in hacking the PS3.  By revealing the hack publicly, which would be for the benefit of others who wish to re-enable Linux support, the hack is open to pirates.  You broke into someone's house to steal back what they took from you but left the door unlocked so that theives with bad intentions could raid the place.  Even if you think that Sony had it coming (I personally don't) they are not the only ones affected.  All of the third parties, who are completely innocent of the disabled Other OS feature, also suffer.

The way I'm thinking is that hacking a console should be a private matter.  One should be free to do it if they know how and their intentions are honest.  But it is irresponsible to reveal these vulnerabilities publicly where pirates can take advantage.

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #110 on: January 04, 2011, 12:56:29 PM »
Very well said Ian.
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline oohhboy

  • Forum Friend or Foe?
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #111 on: January 04, 2011, 01:06:08 PM »
One problem Ian. None of this has anything to do with stealing.

Edit: rubbish grammer
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 01:12:53 PM by oohhboy »
I'm Lacus. I'm fine as Lacus!
Pffh. Toilet paper? What do you think cats are for?

Offline ThePerm

  • predicted it first.
  • Score: 64
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #112 on: January 04, 2011, 01:10:14 PM »
depending on the society different values are placed on the idea of intellectual property, and property ownership in general. The thing is that things don't get made as well without it. I watched a few East German films and they were really goofy. Some of them were pretty good though.
NWR has permission to use any tentative mockup/artwork I post

Offline broodwars

  • Hunting for a Pineapple Salad
  • Score: -1011
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #113 on: January 04, 2011, 01:13:38 PM »
There is however a moral dilemma in hacking the PS3.  By revealing the hack publicly, which would be for the benefit of others who wish to re-enable Linux support, the hack is open to pirates.  You broke into someone's house to steal back what they took from you but left the door unlocked so that theives with bad intentions could raid the place.  Even if you think that Sony had it coming (I personally don't) they are not the only ones affected.  All of the third parties, who are completely innocent of the disabled Other OS feature, also suffer.

The way I'm thinking is that hacking a console should be a private matter.  One should be free to do it if they know how and their intentions are honest.  But it is irresponsible to reveal these vulnerabilities publicly where pirates can take advantage.

That's really the only big problem I ever had with this: that this person (or persons) not only hacked their PS3 to re-enable Linux support, but that they then turned around and released this hack to the internet for everyone who could want to hack the system regardless of reason.  Now we have root keys roaming around the internet, and what little security the PSP still had is gone now as well.  That's two systems now completely open to pirates because someone wanted an ego trip (and, personally, I think it takes quite a bit of nerve to ask the Big 3 for a job after you just very publicly aided in opening up massive piracy on one console and making it worse on a handheld).  If the hackers had kept this to themselves, that would have been fine by me.  But they just threw all that information out there where anyone can do pretty much anything with it.
 
To expand upon your analogy, Ian, it's like breaking into someone's house to take back something you believe you legally owned (but don't), leaving the door unlocked, and then on your way home leaving a trail of signs directing anyone there interested in entering the house.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 01:22:16 PM by broodwars »
There was a Signature here. It's gone now.

Offline oohhboy

  • Forum Friend or Foe?
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #114 on: January 04, 2011, 01:47:18 PM »
Man there are a couple of gits around here. This is like watching NASCAR, **** moving around in a circle, while everyone watches, waiting for someone to crash since they managed to make high speed motor sport one of the most things since the invention of watching paint dry.

Unintended consequences and abuse come from any and all forms of knowledge and technology no matter how inconsequential or harmless it maybe. You might as well ask humanity to un-invent the stick as I am sure it has caused massive harm from all the skulls they caved in.

Go take your "You wouldn't steal a car" cool aid elsewhere, we are already stocked up on crazy.
I'm Lacus. I'm fine as Lacus!
Pffh. Toilet paper? What do you think cats are for?

Offline MaryJane

  • Ain't got nothing on Felica Hardy
  • Score: -13
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #115 on: January 04, 2011, 02:05:04 PM »
While I mostly agree with your argument, I highly disagree with you calling people who disagree with you gits. Their arguments are mainly ones of usage; yes a stick can cave in a skull, but there are better ways to use it.
Silly monkeys; give them thumbs they make a club and beat their brother down. How they survive so misguided is a mystery. Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an a eye to heaven conscious of his fleeting time here.

Offline ThePerm

  • predicted it first.
  • Score: 64
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #116 on: January 04, 2011, 02:16:52 PM »
*facepalm
NWR has permission to use any tentative mockup/artwork I post

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #117 on: January 04, 2011, 02:17:05 PM »
I don't think it's too much for George Hotz to ask Sony (or Nintendo or Microsoft) for a job - corporations like these hire hackers all the time. If there's anyone you want on "your side" it's the person that's smarter than everyone else on "your side." That would probably be the best thing to ever happen for any of the big 3 companies.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline noname2200

  • Not a douche. Seriously.
  • Score: 21
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #118 on: January 04, 2011, 02:27:24 PM »
yes a stick can cave in a skull, but there are better ways to use it.

Nonsense.  Caving in skulls is the highest form of use any object can aspire to.

Offline ThePerm

  • predicted it first.
  • Score: 64
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #119 on: January 04, 2011, 02:29:07 PM »
for a misnathrope

oh my look at this, a new page has dawned, now to change the tides :P
NWR has permission to use any tentative mockup/artwork I post

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #120 on: January 04, 2011, 02:31:05 PM »
I don't think it's too much for George Hotz to ask Sony (or Nintendo or Microsoft) for a job - corporations like these hire hackers all the time. If there's anyone you want on "your side" it's the person that's smarter than everyone else on "your side." That would probably be the best thing to ever happen for any of the big 3 companies.

If he had reported it just to Sony, myabe I could agree. The fact that he released the info to the public negates that though. Companies like Google have hired people that found lots of exploits in the software, but do you think they would have done so if they released the info first and then told Google?
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline Morari

  • 46 DC EA D3 17 FE 45 D8 09 23 EB 97 E4 95 64 10 D4 CD B2 C2
  • Score: -7237
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #121 on: January 04, 2011, 02:40:18 PM »
Sony wouldn't have done anything about it had it been brought to their attention. Companies like to maintain security through obscurity because it's cheap. Of course, there are plenty of white hats out there that test systems specifically to help find and report vulnerabilities. What good would that have done the community though? ;)
"This post has been censored for your protection."

                                --Bureau of Internet Morality

Offline Stogi

  • The Stratos You Should All Try To Be Like
  • Score: 18
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #122 on: January 04, 2011, 03:19:34 PM »
The only reason I poked my head in here was to give you all a common enemy and thus the ability to find common ground, ending this cyclical bantering.

No matter what you think is wrong or right, the world is the way it is. Just lay this beaten horse to rest.
black fairy tales are better at sports

Offline ThePerm

  • predicted it first.
  • Score: 64
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #123 on: January 04, 2011, 04:03:04 PM »
why cant it be a beaten camel, or llama? Never mind, that would just be sad.
NWR has permission to use any tentative mockup/artwork I post

Offline ShyGuy

  • Fight Me!
  • *
  • Score: -9660
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #124 on: January 04, 2011, 04:06:26 PM »
I pirate Nintendo World Report and their products. You should checkout the podcast I setup in China, it's just clips of the various RFN podcasts badly edited together.

I also impersonate Stogi on other message boards for fun and piracy

Offline oohhboy

  • Forum Friend or Foe?
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #125 on: January 04, 2011, 04:41:49 PM »
*facepalm

Thats not a facepalm, THIS IS A FACEPALM:
I'm Lacus. I'm fine as Lacus!
Pffh. Toilet paper? What do you think cats are for?

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #126 on: January 04, 2011, 06:00:15 PM »
I sure as heck don't think it had any impact on people trying to hack the system, they would have continued to do so even with OtherOS still on it.

I strongly believe that removing Other OS did have a lot to do with the system being hacked. The reason is because most pirates are only of average intelligence who for the most part would lack the know how and ability to hack the PS3. The only ones smart enough to hack something are your computer wizs. They're the ones who would be using the Other OS feature on the PS3. Now, when that feature remained they were satisfied, but I think when Sony took it out it awoke a sleeping giant and all these computer geeks banded together and began finding a way to hack the PS3 in earnest to bring back Other OS.

Sure, the pirates are going to reap the fruits of their effort, but the pirates didn't have the intelligence to pull off the hacking by themselves. If Sony hadn't awoken the sleeping dragon of computer geeks I would bet money the PS3 would have taken much longer to be hacked. But Sony had to rouse the ire of computer geniuses and that was like when the Persians pissed off the Spartans.

So its like this: the Pirates had the desire to hack the PS3, but lacked the know how to do it; the computer geeks had the know how but lacked the desire. Once Sony removed Other OS, at that point the computer geeks had the desire in addition to their know how, and the result is what we see here where it was completely cracked just a short time later.

The pirates are like vultures looting all the corpses after a major battle, but it was the Other OS crowd which had fought and won that battle.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 06:10:34 PM by Chozo Ghost »
is your sanity...

Offline King of Twitch

  • twitch.tv/zapr2k i live for this
  • Score: 141
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #127 on: January 04, 2011, 07:42:46 PM »
One problem Ian. None of this has anything to do with stealing.

Edit: rubbish grammer

You misspelled grammar.
"I deem his stream to be supreme and highly esteem his Fortnite team!" - The Doritos Pope and his Mountain Dew Crew.

Offline Spak-Spang

  • The Frightened Fox
  • Score: 39
    • View Profile
    • MirandaNew.com
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #128 on: January 04, 2011, 10:42:39 PM »
I think Ian had the best well thought out statement. 

I also think everyones side and position is understood and arguing different opinions is useless. 

What I want to know is what effect will this have on the rest of the gaming community?  Will this allow for emulation to run rampant with the PS3 and PSP.  Will this basically hurt all 3rd party and 1st party games?  Could pirates figure a way to get Xbox games on the PS3 or what not?

Could 3rd party developers decide to not make PS3 versions of games because it will be easily pirated to the systems? 

I think the fact is it is still too difficult for the layman to pirate...however if an easy to install product becomes available then this could become more widely spread.  Look at DS piracy.  It is pretty rampant here in Korea, everyone does it.  This just seems to signal the same thing happening to the PS3. 

Offline oohhboy

  • Forum Friend or Foe?
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #129 on: January 04, 2011, 11:52:30 PM »
It's only due to the fact Ian's analogy is purely physical nature that makes it more relatable, therefore more digestible to the imprudent mind. Besides that fact this matter has got nothing to do with stealing, has almost no connection to physical property, is based on the assumption of infinite liability, relationships that don't exist and knowledge that essentially amounts to mind reading makes Ian's statement void.

It is the equivalent of "Would you steal a car?" or "Giving money to the rich will lead to the trickle down effect!" level of intellectual level of laziness and dishonesty that tries to reframe the debate into something that it isn't based purely on an emotional outcome reliant on a knee jerk reaction of agreement that is self reenforcing because a person isn't willing to admit they might be wrong.

I will relink a post I made earlier to avoid repeating myself. Feel free to drop the second half as it is only tangential to the issue at hand, however it does point to a higher issue that this forms a part of.
I'm Lacus. I'm fine as Lacus!
Pffh. Toilet paper? What do you think cats are for?

Offline Morari

  • 46 DC EA D3 17 FE 45 D8 09 23 EB 97 E4 95 64 10 D4 CD B2 C2
  • Score: -7237
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #130 on: January 05, 2011, 12:01:49 AM »
Piracy rarely has any significant effects on a system. Despite what publishes would like you to believe, piracy does not necessarily equate to lost sales.

With that in mind, I think you'll find that third parties don't really care. They'll still be making the same amount of profit regardless.

Ease of use doesn't have much to do with it either. As you mention, the DS is extremely easy to hack, yet it sells just fine. Likewise, the Wii can be hacked with a simply software mod. People can load up any P2P network they want for free music, but would rather pay $2 a song on iTunes. Piracy has no significant impact.
"This post has been censored for your protection."

                                --Bureau of Internet Morality

Offline Spak-Spang

  • The Frightened Fox
  • Score: 39
    • View Profile
    • MirandaNew.com
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #131 on: January 05, 2011, 01:55:21 AM »
Yet, 3rd parties are blaming piracy for the DS as a reason for lost of sales.  I think it depends on how easy it is to pirate and how much the marekt embraces pirating on the system.  Both the PSP and the DS has a large problem with pirating, and the 3rd parties are reacting to it.  I think that is a very real reason why we see less products coming out for the PSP and DS. 


Offline Shorty McNostril

  • Blue text is gone :(
  • Score: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #132 on: January 05, 2011, 06:10:37 AM »
While I'm sure that piracy is definitely a contributing factor, I think 3rd parties are mostly trying to shift blame from themselves because the majority of stuff they make is junk.

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #133 on: January 05, 2011, 09:51:25 AM »
I'd like to point out also, that the first (and now several) CFW for PS3 has been released...and it doesn't allow piracy. Now, keep in mind that since just about anyone will be able to make their own CFW that this will surely change, but it seems obvious that piracy is not the goal of the people that hacked the console to begin with.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline Morari

  • 46 DC EA D3 17 FE 45 D8 09 23 EB 97 E4 95 64 10 D4 CD B2 C2
  • Score: -7237
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #134 on: January 05, 2011, 11:32:35 AM »
Yet, 3rd parties are blaming piracy for the DS as a reason for lost of sales.  I think it depends on how easy it is to pirate and how much the marekt embraces pirating on the system.  Both the PSP and the DS has a large problem with pirating, and the 3rd parties are reacting to it.  I think that is a very real reason why we see less products coming out for the PSP and DS. 

That's nothing more than a scapegoat. Developers should make more appealing games, with better replay value. Publishers should charge less, especially for handheld titles. This is no different than when the music labels cry about piracy. It's the incompetence of an industry to react to changing distribution methods and ideals of value.

While I do not agree with him 100%, Gabe Newell has made a lot of very insightful statements throughout the recent past about just this. He realizes that piracy does not equate to lost sales. That most pirates are simply under-served customers. The remaining die-hard pirates are never going to buy your product anyway, so it's not worth wasting time and moneny fighting them. The way to combat piracy is to create a sense of value, which includes supporting the game longer than just releasing some junk DLC. It also means that things that create negative value, like overtly destructive and cumbersome DRM, should be left on the cutting room floor.
"This post has been censored for your protection."

                                --Bureau of Internet Morality

Offline ThePerm

  • predicted it first.
  • Score: 64
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #135 on: January 05, 2011, 02:03:01 PM »
Gabe Newell is righteous
NWR has permission to use any tentative mockup/artwork I post

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #136 on: January 05, 2011, 02:32:30 PM »
Quote
Besides that fact this matter has got nothing to do with stealing

The way I see it it is stealing.  Sneaking into a movie or a concert does not deprive the theatre or promoter of any physical property either but it still rather blatantly dishonest and is an obvious attempt to get something for free that one would normally have to pay for.
 
I think of royalties and IP as more or less giving people credit for coming up with good ideas.  Do those that are all "well information is just free" ever actually HAVE any information of their own?  I don't tend to meet too many people that actually create things that support the idea of everyone being able to just grab it for free.  It seems more like freeloaders who contribute jack **** and want a free ride are more the types that defend piracy and are againt IP.  That doesn't apply to everyone but it seems to be pretty damn common.
 
The concept of one receiving some form of credit to one's ideas is nothing new.  Copyrights and patents weren't designed recently by a bunch of evil corporations.  And yet it seems like a very recent ideology that these concepts shouldn't exist.  In other words it seems right around the time that it became incredibly easy to pirate IP that the concept of how IP should not exist became more widespread.  Once the ability to steal became effortless the thieves needed some bullshit to justify their actions.  Suddenly everyone finds out if they don't steal because it's wrong or because they don't want to get caught.  I don't see it as any different then how all sorts of people become huge jerks on the internet (I don't mean anyone on this forum; I'm talking YouTube comment sections stuff).  Some people are nice and polite because they're good people and some people are only because they don't want to get punched in the face.  Once the threat of punishment is removed we find out who the gentlemen and the assholes really are.
 
I notice that there does not seem to be such an outrage over patents.  There is for software patents (which I think often abuse the system) but no one is on the internet making a big stink about people inventing an innovative new wrench and getting exclusive rights to it.  I think we don't see it because it doesn't affect the pirates.  There is no easy way to rip-off patents and it does not concern them.  But they enjoy ripping off movies, music and videogames so they've got an opinion about that.
 
The whole concept of copyright pretty much has to exist for us to have the vast amount of art and entertainment available to us.  I write songs and make films.  I have not made any money on either.  I'm limited by budget and time.  I can't afford to make something without major restrictions and I can't dedicate as much effort as I would like because I have to have a full time job to, you know, prevent myself from starving to death.  The financial incentive of copyright allows for this stuff to get made.  If you can make a living doing it then you can dedicate a full budget and schedule to it.  Therefore we have a model that rewards creativity and provides incentive for people to create such works.  Yes this can be abused and sometimes great work goes unnoticed while complete junk is successful.  But the alternative is that arts and entertainment become a gentlemen's pursuit that only the rich can fully pursue.  You want all these books and movies and songs and videogames to be made?  Well then you have to support the right for their creators to receive credit for such works and have the rights to sell them.
 
Though I do think that comparing this stuff to stealing a car is extreme.  There is a clear loss of resources in that example.  Piracy is merely a loss of hypothetical revenue which is not as serious.  With outright theft, each incident causes harm.  Piracy's harm is proportionate to how widespread it is.  One person, who wasn't really a potential customer to begin with, has virtually no effect.  But if it is more widespread you get something like China where it more or less impossible to sell IP at all.
 
I think the whole concept has been somewhat abused and bullshitted around by some big corporations.  Some people who have been caught have really had the book thrown at them while more severe criminals receive lesser punishments.  Some of the methods to combat piracy piss all over our rights and as much as I support the idea of copyright I do not support at all this new concept of buying the "licence" to use something.  Like with most things in life there are bad guys on both sides.  It isn't consumer rights vs. copyrights.  It doesn't have to be a battle and it shouldn't be.  The two concepts can and should co-exist and it only greed on both sides that prevents that.

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #137 on: January 05, 2011, 02:47:09 PM »
Ian's post reminds me of the head of Cooks Source magazine who took others stuff that was posted online. When one of those people called her out on it, she tried to claim that everything online is free and that they should have paid her for editing the information.
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline Morari

  • 46 DC EA D3 17 FE 45 D8 09 23 EB 97 E4 95 64 10 D4 CD B2 C2
  • Score: -7237
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #138 on: January 05, 2011, 05:22:39 PM »
I notice that there does not seem to be such an outrage over patents.

You're not looking then. Just like copyright law, companies abuse patents every day. Filing patents for products you never intend to actually manufacture, just for the sake of keeping your competition from making it instead? Or how about all of the patent trolls that simply sit back and collect fees on their obvious filings? There's nothing inherently wrong with patents, in fact they are supposed to spur and protect creative outlets so that individuals can compete. The problem is, once again, corporations. Greed needs to be kept in check, which means that corporations should be deprived of many of the luxuries they enjoy now.

The same goes for copyright. Copyright isn't a problem until companies like Disney get involved and extend it to the length of several lifetimes with unlimited renewals. This does not spur creativity, and in fact denies many of what would otherwise be an important element of copyright law: public domain.

I write and publish short stories. I make films as a hobby. I do a lot of graphic design as well. I offer everything for free on my website, with the option to purchase physical copies that include non-essential extras and trivia. It works just fine for me, and I make enough money from it to be comfortable. The money isn't what makes me happy however, it's the fact that people are genuinely interested and enjoying my work. Art isn't a commodity, it's meant to be shared, experienced, and built upon. It's meant to be free.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 05:24:44 PM by Morari »
"This post has been censored for your protection."

                                --Bureau of Internet Morality

Offline broodwars

  • Hunting for a Pineapple Salad
  • Score: -1011
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #139 on: January 05, 2011, 05:28:02 PM »
The same goes for copyright. Copyright isn't a problem until companies like Disney get involved and extend it to the length of several lifetimes with unlimited renewals. This does not spur creativity, and in fact denies many of what would otherwise be an important element of copyright law: public domain.
 
...
 
Art isn't a commodity, it's meant to be shared, experienced, and built upon. It's meant to be free.

Meh, personally I don't have a problem with Disney continually renewing their copyrights.  Maybe it's just because I'm a lifelong fan of the company, but I like that not just anyone and everyone can put out a crappy cartoon with Mickey in it and make money off it.  I like that the integrity of the character is maintained by the company that created him.  Likewise, if you've seen the Disney Treasures DVDs, you know that no individual and few companies preserve their assets like Disney does for their early cartoons.
 
That's a nice ideal about art, but it's nowhere near realistic.  In the real world, artists need money to eat and have something approaching a lifestyle.  They have a right to make money off what they produce and what they own, and a right to tell other people that they can't infringe upon that right.  And yes, that includes corporations who create and maintain their products.  Just because you don't like the actions of some corporations, that does not mean that you get to dictate to them what rights they have or deserve.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 05:37:20 PM by broodwars »
There was a Signature here. It's gone now.

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #140 on: January 05, 2011, 06:29:09 PM »
Quote
Art isn't a commodity, it's meant to be shared, experienced, and built upon. It's meant to be free.

I see it as slightly different.  I see it as meant to be presented.  I want people to enjoy my work.  But whether or not I charge for that doesn't really matter.  I personally enjoy the creative outlet it provides and that is what makes me happy.  But I would love it if I could do this for a living, not for the money, but so I can do what I love instead of dedicating so much time to an unrelated career that I have to stick with to support myself.  I made a movie over the last few years and I'm very proud of it but it was a lot of work to get done on virtually no budget and working around everyone's work schedule.  I think of what I could do if I had some money to work with and a full-time job's worth a time and I get excited thinking about that.  I could really concentrate on the story and the writing if I didn't have to constantly think about how to fit this or that in the budget or where to film this or who I know who could play this character.
 
Copyright allows for a situation where if I caught a break and there was a lot of interest in my art I could do this full time.  It can allow for abuse by corporations but it can also provide an artist with the freedom to be an artist by allowing his art to also be his livelihood.

Offline Morari

  • 46 DC EA D3 17 FE 45 D8 09 23 EB 97 E4 95 64 10 D4 CD B2 C2
  • Score: -7237
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #141 on: January 05, 2011, 06:46:30 PM »
I meant free as in speech, not free as in beer. ;)

Regardless. Copyright law is a perversion of what it was originally intended to be. No one but large corporations benefit from the way it is now. That's not good for creativity. It's not good for anyone but some rich pricks at Disney. Of course, Disney is more than happy to use work from the public domain... look at just about anyone of their films and you'll see that they almost all use fairy tales that have since entered the public domain. That's how art works. Disney stifles creativity by never allowing their work to enter the public domain however. It's counter intuitive to society, and definitely not what was originally intended as copyright.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 06:53:45 PM by Morari »
"This post has been censored for your protection."

                                --Bureau of Internet Morality

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #142 on: January 05, 2011, 07:25:29 PM »
Quote
Regardless. Copyright law is a perversion of what it was originally intended to be.

Well that I can probably agree on.  So I think the ideal solution is for copyright law to revert back to its original intentions, not abolish it outright.  Often in life I find I may respect the spirit of a law but not necessarily its execution.

Offline Morari

  • 46 DC EA D3 17 FE 45 D8 09 23 EB 97 E4 95 64 10 D4 CD B2 C2
  • Score: -7237
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #143 on: January 05, 2011, 07:36:09 PM »
I never suggested that we abolish copyright. It needs to be restricted (reverted?) to a usable state however, that way it can actually encourage innovation, instead of allowing corporations to eternally stifle it. :)
"This post has been censored for your protection."

                                --Bureau of Internet Morality

Offline King of Twitch

  • twitch.tv/zapr2k i live for this
  • Score: 141
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #144 on: January 05, 2011, 07:52:15 PM »
Disney stifles creativity by never allowing their work to enter the public domain

Say what
"I deem his stream to be supreme and highly esteem his Fortnite team!" - The Doritos Pope and his Mountain Dew Crew.

Offline UncleBob

  • (PATRON)
  • NWR Junior Ranger
  • Score: 98
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #145 on: January 05, 2011, 07:58:06 PM »
That's nothing more than a scapegoat. Developers should make more appealing games, with better replay value. Publishers should charge less, especially for handheld titles. This is no different than when the music labels cry about piracy. It's the incompetence of an industry to react to changing distribution methods and ideals of value.

And that's nothing more than BS.  If you don't think something is worth the price being asked for it, then you don't buy it - but you also don't get to enjoy it anyway.  That's not how grown-up, responsible people function.

Blaming companies for people stealing their product?  Really?  What's next?  "She was asking for it, wearing that short of a skirt!"?
Just some random guy on the internet who has a different opinion of games than you.

Offline ShyGuy

  • Fight Me!
  • *
  • Score: -9660
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #146 on: January 05, 2011, 08:19:59 PM »
The only evil is THE MAN all else is pure. It's Anarchist philosophy.

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #147 on: January 05, 2011, 08:29:38 PM »
Meh, personally I don't have a problem with Disney continually renewing their copyrights.

Actually, that's not really the issue. Its that Disney (and other companies) pressure Congress to pass legislation to extend the length of copyrights. Where do you draw the line? The only limitation is that copyrights cannot be indefinite, but Congress could theoretically pass a law extending copyrights to 1 billion years (which would be the same for all intents and purposes).

Disney stifles creativity by never allowing their work to enter the public domain

Say what

Its especially funny because I don't think Morari realizes the stupidity of his post. Not being able to copy someone else's work is "stifling creativity"? WTF?? Creativity isn't creativity unless its original.

Then again, he does have a point because it seems like most of Disney's "creative work" is stuff they themselves ripped off from the public domain (works such as Grimm's Fairy Tales, and so on). Then they toss in a few singing mice and call it a day. Its really ironic if you think about it.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 08:43:19 PM by Chozo Ghost »
is your sanity...

Offline Morari

  • 46 DC EA D3 17 FE 45 D8 09 23 EB 97 E4 95 64 10 D4 CD B2 C2
  • Score: -7237
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #148 on: January 05, 2011, 08:44:47 PM »
That's nothing more than a scapegoat. Developers should make more appealing games, with better replay value. Publishers should charge less, especially for handheld titles. This is no different than when the music labels cry about piracy. It's the incompetence of an industry to react to changing distribution methods and ideals of value.

And that's nothing more than BS.  If you don't think something is worth the price being asked for it, then you don't buy it - but you also don't get to enjoy it anyway.  That's not how grown-up, responsible people function.

The blame does lie on the shoulders of the industry. What customers could be made of pirates are ignored. On the other hand, the die-hard pirates are never going to become customers anyway. They are not worth the effort or money to temporarily stop. These industries put all of their work toward preventing piracy. They should instead focus on making products of positive value, and doing what they can to reach their under served customers.

Disney stifles creativity by never allowing their work to enter the public domain

Say what

Its especially funny because I don't think Morari realizes the stupidity of his post. Not being able to copy someone else's work is "stifling creativity"? WTF?? Creativity isn't creativity unless its original.

Not copying someone else's work. Building from it, interpreting it. Just like Disney has done with every old fairy tale they've made films of. Nothing is original, and creativity does not necessarily rely upon it. Everything has a basis somewhere... that's how history works.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 09:06:57 PM by Morari »
"This post has been censored for your protection."

                                --Bureau of Internet Morality

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #149 on: January 05, 2011, 08:54:22 PM »
Just be glad that the last time they extended copyright length. With the Copyright Term Extension Act of 1998, which put it at 95 years after creation for corporate-owned copyrights for stuff made before 1978 and 120 years for stuff since then; for individuals it is the life of the author plus 70 years.  This means that the first Mickey Mouse cartoon (mentioning that because Disney lobbied so much for the bill that it was nicknamed the Mickey Mouse Act), Steamboat Willie (released in 1928), won't be public domain until 2023. Under the 1976 copyright laws, that was gonna happen in 2003. So you can bet that in about 10 years you will see Disney once again trying to extend the copyright length.

The reason I said we should be glad it isn't worse is that some people, like Sonny Bonno (who supported the bill when he was in the Senate) wanted copyright protection to be indefinite. When this was discovered to be unconstitutional (since the constitution specifically says "by securing for limited Times" in regards to copyright and patents). At least the 1976 law limited it to 95 years.

What I find annoying is that Disney adds very little to the fairy tales they use (for example, just about the only thing they added to Snow White was the names of the dwarves since they were nameless in the original dark tale) and then would sue other companies for doing the same thing. It reminds me of when Universal proved that King Kong was public domain (so they could remake the movie in 1978 without paying for the rights) and then sued Nintendo and other companies for Donkey Kong.
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline ThePerm

  • predicted it first.
  • Score: 64
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #150 on: January 05, 2011, 11:40:58 PM »
IDK, i think Disney has a valid claim when it comes to corporate mascots. Making Mickey Public would really harm the company. On the other hand Trademarks last forever.

The whole superman thing pisses me off though, Simon and Schuster sold off the rights, but thanks to politicing they got it back(sort of). I say you sell it then you can't get it back.

Marvel should get back Spider-Man, unfortunately they signed a crap deal with Sony, and as long as Sony keeps making movies than they get to keep making movies. There should have been totally a time limit on that deal, because with it they can't put Spider-man in the Avengers. Fox has wolverine and x-men. The new xmen sounds like crap, but the new wolverine sounds like its going to be fucking spectacular.
NWR has permission to use any tentative mockup/artwork I post

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #151 on: January 05, 2011, 11:57:14 PM »
Instead of milking 100 year old characters for eternity, Disney could... oh, I don't know, make something new?
is your sanity...

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #152 on: January 06, 2011, 12:13:11 AM »
They make new stuff all the time, like Toy Story 1-3, Toy Story Cars Edition, Toy Story with fish...
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline ThePerm

  • predicted it first.
  • Score: 64
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #153 on: January 06, 2011, 12:31:22 AM »
a company is defined by its characters....thats why Nintendo is in the same position Disney is. Disney makes new stuff all the time, and actually don't push around Mickey too often. Corporations, however are defined legally as people... who live indefinitely, and so anything created by a corporation should get the same rights as a person: The life of a person + 70+ years. If Disney suddenly went out of business than of course Mickey should go public domain.

can you imagine 70 years from now Mario going public domain? That would **** up Nintendo's ****. The law for corporate copy rights should just be intelligent.
NWR has permission to use any tentative mockup/artwork I post

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #154 on: January 06, 2011, 12:42:28 AM »
I don't know much about Japanese copyright laws (they vary by country of coarse, which is why some books are still copyrighted in the US but are public domain in Europe), but Nintendo won't have to worry about Mario going public domain for 90 more years (2101). They do take into account corporations, which is why they are so long already.

Perm, I do agree on Superman. I think it's BS that just because the children of Siegel and Schuster (Simon & Schuster is a book publisher, LOL) are pissed off that they missed out on how big Superman became, they think they should get back various rights to the character despite DC Comics having legally bought the rights to the character. That is why companies try to make sure they own the characters from the beginning now. I fully support DC in their legal fights on this situation.
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline UncleBob

  • (PATRON)
  • NWR Junior Ranger
  • Score: 98
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #155 on: January 06, 2011, 01:49:31 AM »
The blame does lie on the shoulders of the industry. What customers could be made of pirates are ignored.

No.  If you want to put the blame onto a company for making crappy products that don't sell because they're crappy, then that's A-OKAY with me.

But blaming a company because people don't feel like paying for their crappy products and, instead, want to steal them?  That's BS.
Just some random guy on the internet who has a different opinion of games than you.

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #156 on: January 06, 2011, 08:12:50 AM »
The blame does lie on the shoulders of the industry. What customers could be made of pirates are ignored.

No.  If you want to put the blame onto a company for making crappy products that don't sell because they're crappy, then that's A-OKAY with me.

But blaming a company because people don't feel like paying for their crappy products and, instead, want to steal them?  That's BS.

By his logic, if someone thought a Hooker's rates were too high does that mean... um, nevermind (it would probably not be appropriate to go there).

But yeah, if you don't like the price then don't buy it. You have no right to steal.
is your sanity...

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #157 on: January 06, 2011, 09:41:28 AM »
I'm not going to sit here and defend piracy (yes it's a crime, and people shouldn't do it), but it is not comparable to rape in any fashion. Yes, developers do lose out on money (assuming that you would have bought the game), but it's not the same as physically stealing something. People who burn games and sell them, or distribute them are the real criminals, but the kid that can't afford to buy games (and never would have bought them to begin with) so he downloads a few, while technically yes is a criminal, really isn't hurting anybody. The whole piracy thing gets blown way out of proportion anyway. At the conference where all of this PS3 stuff was explained, they (creators of the Homebrew Channel) mentioned that as of December they had 1 million unique users - and that's out of 70 million Wiis. So if you go with the argument (which I've seen thrown around here) that around half of the people that hack their systems do it to play copied games, then that's about 500,000 people. I know this isn't scientific, but I would wager that it's better than some "expert" guessing how many people pirate games, but that would equal about 0.7% of Wii users. Sure there are also modchip users too, but that margin is probably a lot smaller than HBC users.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline Morari

  • 46 DC EA D3 17 FE 45 D8 09 23 EB 97 E4 95 64 10 D4 CD B2 C2
  • Score: -7237
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #158 on: January 06, 2011, 10:08:45 AM »
But yeah, if you don't like the price then don't buy it. You have no right to steal.

I never said that you have a right to pirate. I said that it is the companies fault that people feel the need to pirate their products in the first place. If these companies made better products and charged what the market would support for them, then they would actually sell. There are always going to be some hardcore pirates, even if the games were only $1, but you can't worry about them because they were never and will never be customers anyway. The companies don't loose any money on people that never intend to buy their product. Instead they should focus on making the best product possible for those that would potentially purchase it. Why is that so hard to understand?

Hardcore pirates are fifteen year-olds that download anything and everything under the sun. They don't have the money to purchase anything to begin with, and certainly could never acquire enough money to actually purchase all of the games they pirate. Furthermore, they never even have the time to play all of the games they pirate. They just collect whatever they can download. Hence, there is no loss. If anything, it might be a form of advertisement in that specific scenario. One day, that kid won't have all of the time in the world to idly sit around and download every game that comes out. One day he'll have a job and a little bit of free cash to actually buy games with. Chances are, he'll remember some of the games he used to play and purchase the inevitable sequels.

Companies need to stop looking at theoretical loss and start focusing on potential gain. Screwing over your paying customers to temporarily stop a few pirates only creates more pirates. That goes for everyone, not just game developers. The music and movie industry are, in some ways, even worse off.

Edit: We can see just how brainwashed everyone is when the replication of ones and zeroes is being compared to violent sexual crimes. I bet the MPAA wish they would have thought of that one instead of their lame "you wouldn't steal a car" campaign!
"This post has been censored for your protection."

                                --Bureau of Internet Morality

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #159 on: January 06, 2011, 10:24:29 AM »
I was gonna mention that "you wouldn't steal a car" campaign too. I saw this British comedian who was talking about that and said while that's true, if his friend came up and said, "hey, I just bought this awesome new car...do you want me to burn you a copy?" he would probably consider it.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline broodwars

  • Hunting for a Pineapple Salad
  • Score: -1011
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #160 on: January 06, 2011, 02:31:40 PM »
Sony responds to the PS3 hack
 
As I completely called, Sony is looking to repond to the hack with new security firmware updates.  Pointless?  Eh, probably.  Sony may not be able to plug the security hole, but who knows what new restrictions this will place on legitimate users like myself?  Thanks, hackers.  I'll make sure to think of you every time I have to sit through another one of the PS3's legendary half-hour firmware updates (and whatever else is caused by them) because you guys couldn't take a hint when Sony removed Linux support due to it being used to hack the console.
There was a Signature here. It's gone now.

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #161 on: January 06, 2011, 04:30:45 PM »
because you guys couldn't take a hint when Sony removed Linux support due to it being used to hack the console.

Maybe it was Sony who should have taken the hint that something like this would have happened if they pulled a feature that the hacker community cared deeply about.

Anyway, looks like Sony is going to address this by "Network updates", according to what the article says. I think this makes sense, because there is no way they can firmware their way out of this on the console end. The best they can do is possibly lock the hacked consoles out of PSN by scanning through the PS3s and make sure nothing fishy is going on. So I don't think they will be able to stop people from using Linux (or pirating), but it might bring things back to square one where people who do so will be locked out of PSN.
is your sanity...

Offline UncleBob

  • (PATRON)
  • NWR Junior Ranger
  • Score: 98
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #162 on: January 06, 2011, 06:10:05 PM »
Edit: We can see just how brainwashed everyone is when the replication of ones and zeroes is being compared to violent sexual crimes. I bet the MPAA wish they would have thought of that one instead of their lame "you wouldn't steal a car" campaign!

No one is comparing theft of copyrighted material with violent sexual crimes.  What we're comparing is the idiotic idea of blaming the victim of one crime for the crime to blaming the victim of another crime for that crime.

Your a poor kid who can't afford games?  Boo-hoo.  Don't buy them.  But you don't get to steal them either.  And the big ol' mean company that makes the games isn't at fault because you decide to.

Again, if you want to blame the company because their product sucks and doesn't sell worth crap - that's good.  In fact, I encourage it (if the product does, in fact, suck).  But there's a whole world of difference between that and blaming companies for people stealing from them.
Just some random guy on the internet who has a different opinion of games than you.

Offline NWR_insanolord

  • Rocket Fuel Malt Liquor....DAMN!
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: -18986
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #163 on: January 06, 2011, 06:52:34 PM »
He's not so much blaming the company as looking at it practically. What does the company really gain by stopping that kid from pirating? He's not going to go out and buy all those games; he doesn't have the money, so there's no way they're getting any from him. Morari's not defending the kid, he's just pointing out that extra DRM isn't going to solve the problem, and will in fact make things worse for people who actually buy games
Insanolord is a terrible moderator.

J.P. Corbran
NWR Community Manager and Soccer Correspondent

Offline UncleBob

  • (PATRON)
  • NWR Junior Ranger
  • Score: 98
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #164 on: January 06, 2011, 06:59:07 PM »
He's not so much blaming the company as looking at it practically.
Hrm?

The blame does lie on the shoulders of the industry.

Quote
What does the company really gain by stopping that kid from pirating? He's not going to go out and buy all those games; he doesn't have the money, so there's no way they're getting any from him.

You don't *know* that.  You can't say a pirate wouldn't get a legitimate copy of the game if a pirated version was available any more than the industry giants can say that a pirated copy = lost sale.

What you can know is that no pirated copies = no lost sales from piracy.
Just some random guy on the internet who has a different opinion of games than you.

Offline NWR_insanolord

  • Rocket Fuel Malt Liquor....DAMN!
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: -18986
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #165 on: January 06, 2011, 07:29:42 PM »
You don't *know* that.  You can't say a pirate wouldn't get a legitimate copy of the game if a pirated version was available any more than the industry giants can say that a pirated copy = lost sale.

I will concede that point, though I'd argue it's most likely quite a bit closer to the former.

Quote
What you can know is that no pirated copies = no lost sales from piracy.

There are two problems with that. The first is that no matter what the companies do, pirates will find a way around it, so there's no way to make it so there are no pirated copies. The second is that it can end up being a huge inconvenience to legitimate consumers, not to mention all the money and time that went into developing and implementing such measures, and that eats into the benefits of it.
Insanolord is a terrible moderator.

J.P. Corbran
NWR Community Manager and Soccer Correspondent

Offline Morari

  • 46 DC EA D3 17 FE 45 D8 09 23 EB 97 E4 95 64 10 D4 CD B2 C2
  • Score: -7237
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #166 on: January 06, 2011, 07:41:26 PM »
Your a poor kid who can't afford games?  Boo-hoo.  Don't buy them.  But you don't get to steal them either.  And the big ol' mean company that makes the games isn't at fault because you decide to.

You seem pretty hung up on this. Your tone seems to indicate that you take this very personally, and even more disturbingly, relate it directly to theft. Maybe you were robbed as child and never got over it fully? I suppose that prolonged injustice could really warp a person's mind if left unresolved. You should save your videogame-buying money up and hire a therapist instead. :P
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 08:04:01 PM by Morari »
"This post has been censored for your protection."

                                --Bureau of Internet Morality

Offline oohhboy

  • Forum Friend or Foe?
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #167 on: January 06, 2011, 07:59:01 PM »
Unclebob I don't want to **** on you, but I will, because none of this is about theft/stealing except for counterfeiting/fraud which is another matter altogether. If you don't understand that, please stop waving your "It's stealing" stick of moral/legal absoluteness and crying, it's not helpful.

The root of the problem is how the market fundamentally works. There is supply and there is demand. You match them and you get a price where hopefully everyone is happy. However in the event there is infinite supply this breaks down. With infinite supply the price is zero. There are also some physical things that are on a small enough scale are considered infinite, like air and water or fish in the sea. Anyone person can use as much as they want without harm, however given a large enough collective effort to exploit these resources, damage is done and with enough of it you have collapsed fish stocks, air pollution and undrinkable rivers. This is the tragedy of the commons and will happen to anything that is free and or infinite to any given user. This essentially happens to software.

However unlike these commons, any given piece of software is truly infinite. Sure there is the original cost of making it, but to any one given person because it is infinite, it's price can be anywhere between zero and total cost of development if only one person buys it. If you had prefect knowledge(never, ever happens) you could set a price where a majority of people would buy the product at a maximum profit, however there will always be people who will always pay zero or near zero for a whatever reason and there is no point bitching about it because this will always happen, but on the flipside there is always people who will always pay because they can both afford and appreciate this intangible good. The most important thing is that the price is set correctly and enough people feel they made a good deal so that one can cover their initial cost and make a profit.

So like the commons, you set an appropriate "price" like fishing quotas(Initial costs) and convince people to pay for the convenience of the fish at the fish mart(retail) for a reasonable price. There will always be people who go to the beach and fish/gather shellfish, but as long as this not too many people take too much, everybody wins. In fact once the initial costs have been covered, anything beyond that can be considered a bonus or reinvested back into more fish/bigger boat/games.

What people do with said fish/air/water is their own business, but this is the basis of why piracy exists and no matter how draconian the DRM or laws becomes will continue to do so. People don't like getting beaten whether it's once, or day after day, and more often than not grow more defiant short of crushing the human spirit or placing someone in an invisible prison ala North Korea or Stalinism or RIAA(via asinine lawsuits). While they make for short term gains, they make for long term disasters time and time again, so why not try something else where everyone wins? Answer : Because people tend not to care how much another person gains along they gain more even if everybody including themselves gain less aka game theory.

Until this is made apparent to publishers and devs will always bitch about potential unrealised gains as actual losses when if fact it is just economics is action and something to be adapted to, not something to be remade at will.
I'm Lacus. I'm fine as Lacus!
Pffh. Toilet paper? What do you think cats are for?

Offline Chozo Ghost

  • I do want the Wii U to fail.
  • Score: -431
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #168 on: January 06, 2011, 08:09:37 PM »
You ever get that surreal feeling where there's Person A who doesn't seem right in the head, but you don't want to say anything because to do so would be really rude and inappropriate, but then to your shock and amazement this Person A goes up to a random normal and sane Person B and says that to them?

For some reason I'm sorta getting that kind of feeling right about now.
is your sanity...

Offline oohhboy

  • Forum Friend or Foe?
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #169 on: January 06, 2011, 08:30:31 PM »
Normal is a function of statistics and insanity could be defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, in which case we are all insane or insanity is momentary and is based on perspective.

Scared yet?
I'm Lacus. I'm fine as Lacus!
Pffh. Toilet paper? What do you think cats are for?

Offline King of Twitch

  • twitch.tv/zapr2k i live for this
  • Score: 141
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #170 on: January 06, 2011, 09:01:12 PM »
on the flipside there is always people who will always pay because they can both afford and appreciate this intangible good. The most important thing is that the price is set correctly and enough people feel they made a good deal so that one can cover their initial cost and make a profit.

If I decide there's an infinite supply, that the price isn't set correctly and that I can't afford/appreciate it, I can take it?

"I deem his stream to be supreme and highly esteem his Fortnite team!" - The Doritos Pope and his Mountain Dew Crew.

Offline Arbok

  • Toho Mikado
  • Score: 5
    • View Profile
    • Toho Kingdom
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #171 on: January 06, 2011, 09:03:39 PM »
You seem pretty hung up on this. Your tone seems to indicate that you take this very personally, and even more disturbingly, relate it directly to theft. Maybe you were robbed as child and never got over it fully? I suppose that prolonged injustice could really warp a person's mind if left unresolved. You should save your videogame-buying money up and hire a therapist instead. :P:

Well that response seemed totally uncalled for...
Toho Kingdom

@romero_tk

Offline oohhboy

  • Forum Friend or Foe?
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #172 on: January 06, 2011, 09:41:01 PM »
ZAP, If you read my post in it's entirety, you wouldn't be asking that question.

Look back when World of Goo was offered to people for any price they wanted to pay, or the Humble Bundle. Yes, some people paid zero dollars or $0.01 which is near zero as ou can get with money. Yet so many more people paid for it even if they could take it. Supply was infinite. But enough people paid for it, the game devs did not implode from lack of funds. Everybody is happy and they didn't need DRM to do it.

By doing so they let the market set it's own price which should be zero because there is infinite supply, but this didn't happen. Others, include myself felt this was worth paying something for.

There are other games and pieces of software that are offered for free. No strings. They have infinite supply. Yet there have been times I have offered resources to them, in the case of Freespace 2, it was my time to help them crush a bug or two. Admittedly I helped them so I could play a particular mod in it's entirety, but the community gained. I "Paid" for it.

So stick that bottle that guy has in his back pocket into somewhere unpleasant, because he has nothing to do with this.
I'm Lacus. I'm fine as Lacus!
Pffh. Toilet paper? What do you think cats are for?

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #173 on: January 06, 2011, 10:03:42 PM »
Sony's "we'll fix this with network updates" is pure bullshit, and they just said that to look good for investors. They can't fix it without breaking it. Also, no one has been able to use this for piracy (yet), and OtherOS was not used to achieve this hack, so the argument against Linux is still bullshit.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline ShyGuy

  • Fight Me!
  • *
  • Score: -9660
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #174 on: January 07, 2011, 01:54:14 AM »
I HAVE A HARD TIME SEEING WHY I WOULD WANT THIS OVER THE PIRATED VERSION...

Offline UncleBob

  • (PATRON)
  • NWR Junior Ranger
  • Score: 98
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #175 on: January 07, 2011, 02:18:30 AM »
words words words...

Your rants about DRM, lawsuits, etc., etc... all sound good - but how do those come into play when, say, NAPSTER was first starting up?  There was virtually no DRM on music CDs and no lawsuits for illegally downloading software.  Yet people still did it, in pretty decent numbers.

All of that sounds good, but, frankly, has very little to do with why people pirate.  They do so because, frankly, they are to self-centered and self-important to give two craps about anyone but themselves.  They see something, they want it, they take it.  And don't get in their way.  *me, me, me* - like the selfish brat on Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.  "I want it and I want it now!"  Justify it however you want - and try to make yourself feel better in the process, it don't make a bit of difference to me.  But you're taking something from someone else without their permission, without compensation and without *ANY* legal or moral grounds to do so.  That's stealing by any reasonable definition of the word.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 02:27:15 AM by UncleBob »
Just some random guy on the internet who has a different opinion of games than you.

Offline ShyGuy

  • Fight Me!
  • *
  • Score: -9660
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #176 on: January 07, 2011, 02:33:43 AM »
Deputy, it's time for some sentencing. What qualifies as a hanging offense in these parts?

Offline KDR_11k

  • boring person
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #177 on: January 07, 2011, 02:40:50 AM »
Guys, quit whining, the only reason the PS3 really got hacked was "it's there", possibly with a side of "it doesn't run Linux". Hackers will hack ANYTHING if they can and the same goes for installing Linux. Just because it makes no sense doesn't mean they won't do it. Who NEEDS Linux on a black and white Game Boy? Nobody but the Linux crowd will install Linux on ANYTHING that doesn't run away fast enough. Remember the joke about installing Linux on a dead badger? That's the mentality we're looking at here.

Offline oohhboy

  • Forum Friend or Foe?
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #178 on: January 07, 2011, 04:26:43 AM »
If you haven't figured it out already, I was describing a new form of economics. It's called post-scarcity. David Wong the author of the article describes it in a far more plain and amusing language than I ever could. It is a new form of economy we will all have to deal with now and more reasonable on both sides we are, the better the outcome. So take your "It's stealing" stick and shove it, it's still not helping.

As I see it, if you can convince enough people they are not paying for the game you are playing now, but more as an investment to see more games like it in the future it will help people understand while any given copy is worthless, there is that initial cost involved that needs to be covered. However companies must also change with how the economy works and they are in the same boat as their customers, therefore must work with them so everyone is better off. Change is here, deal with it.
I'm Lacus. I'm fine as Lacus!
Pffh. Toilet paper? What do you think cats are for?

Offline UncleBob

  • (PATRON)
  • NWR Junior Ranger
  • Score: 98
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #179 on: January 07, 2011, 08:34:00 AM »
Again, that sounds good, but people aren't going to be convinced that purchasing a game (or other media) is an "investment".  They're going to assume that everyone else is going to buy the game because piracy isn't that big of a deal, it doesn't hurt anyone, they wouldn't have bought the game anyway so it's not a lost sale, etc., etc...  They're going to make excuses as to why it is okay for them to take what they want, when they want, and damn anyone who says differently.  Sound like anyone you know?
Just some random guy on the internet who has a different opinion of games than you.

Offline oohhboy

  • Forum Friend or Foe?
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #180 on: January 07, 2011, 10:06:09 AM »
This is all new economics and if the best minds on the planet hasn't figured out a solution yet, what are the chances either you or I have?

Things like the humble bundle, open source and steam are working experiments looking to solve this issue through different approaches. I don't believe any one method is an acceptable answer, but in combination and with other yet to be discovered ideas will lead to something better for everyone. Or just maybe there is no market solution and the future doesn't lie in American style capitalism, but a hybrid of many ideas? I don't know, I don't have a crystal ball.

This is a form of market failure like common goods and that we resolve that for most part through a combination of education, enforcement, reforms and study. Yeah, we still have individuals and companies that take too many fish, pollute for a variety of reason, both legal and illegal through different methods. The free rider issue will never be fully negated, we just take that into account and live with it by mitigating as much of the damage we can.

So yeah, thanks for telling us that there are assholes out there and we should look out for them. Great help. I bet you hate the idea of food stamps or food parcels because "Oh no, someone is going to abuse the system so we must shut it down so no one can abuse it!" or make it so difficult to qualify it doesn't help anyone? WELFARE QUEENS!!!

Your continued pessimism is worthless and is less than productive. It's an example of Parkinson's Law of Triviality. You understand stealing(Your not going to like this), therefore you focus on it like your life depends on it, regardless of the bigger issue at hand in this case is post scarcity that should super-seed that minor and incorrect assumption that piracy (There is an entire paragraph on theft there and you won't like it even more) is theft when in fact it's closer to a free rider issue. Nice to know that the useful power plant will never be built because you're too busy bitching about the bike shed.
I'm Lacus. I'm fine as Lacus!
Pffh. Toilet paper? What do you think cats are for?

Offline SixthAngel

  • Score: 18
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #181 on: January 07, 2011, 10:15:45 AM »
Its especially funny because I don't think Morari realizes the stupidity of his post. Not being able to copy someone else's work is "stifling creativity"? WTF?? Creativity isn't creativity unless its original.

Not copying someone else's work. Building from it, interpreting it. Just like Disney has done with every old fairy tale they've made films of. Nothing is original, and creativity does not necessarily rely upon it. Everything has a basis somewhere... that's how history works.

Current public domain laws stifle creativity far more than that.  By not releasing things into the public domain you actually reward companies like Disney for no longer being creative .  The laws were designed to increase creativity by letting people who create things actually make money but they now have become a way for people who had nothing to do with the actual creation to suck up money by using something established while having the law to push out the competition.
It also stifles creativity  because it gives this corporation a recognizable name that they can always use to effectively suck all the air out of the room when someone introduces a new project/character. If somebody starts to release a character Disney sees as a possible threat they can simply announce a mouse comeback and suddenly the upstarts get no attention.  This is fine when you just make something and are fighting off immitators, but once the creator has been dead for 56 years its just a way to use your unfair advantage (that you gained by not creating anything) and the incredible nostalgia that can only come from something so old to bludgeon the competition into submission.

A sane IP law is incredibly valuable, too bad the current law isn't sane.

can you imagine 70 years from now Mario going public domain? That would **** up Nintendo's ****.

In 70 years everyone who currently works at Nintendo will be be dead.  Their children will be dead or retired and their grandchildren have a good chance of being retired.  The company in 70 years will have absolutely no relation to the current company outside of the name.  It will be a bunch of people who had nothing to do with creating Mario stuck on him like a lamprey trying to suck out everything they can because they own him.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 10:38:59 AM by SixthAngel »

Offline Morari

  • 46 DC EA D3 17 FE 45 D8 09 23 EB 97 E4 95 64 10 D4 CD B2 C2
  • Score: -7237
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #182 on: January 07, 2011, 10:18:56 AM »
words words words...

Your rants about DRM, lawsuits, etc., etc... all sound good - but how do those come into play when, say, NAPSTER was first starting up?  There was virtually no DRM on music CDs and no lawsuits for illegally downloading software.  Yet people still did it, in pretty decent numbers.

Words words words, aye? That's awfully presumptuous of you. That's exactly the kind of smug attitude that would come from someone defending current copyright laws to the death. Of course, I guess you're happy in your ignorance and would rather ignore insightful, articulate statements than have to possibly rethink your stance on some things. Typical.

Napster exploded because music CDs were (and still are to some extent) ridiculously priced and had no alternative. The music industry was slow to adapt and still prefers suing their fans to actually changing with the times. Nowadays there are plenty of options, and most people are more than happy to purchase singles through iTunes. See? That's the market at work. Of course, that market still has a ways to go due to lingering dinosaurs who demand unreasonable agreements from "their" work.

But you're taking something from someone else without their permission, without compensation and without *ANY* legal or moral grounds to do so.  That's stealing by any reasonable definition of the word.

Can you please pull your head out of your ass for just one moment? It's hard to have a discussion with someone that can't even get the basis of the topic correct. Copyright infringement is wrong, but it is not stealing. You're not "taking" anything, because the original person still retains their copy. No one has been deprived of anything, except for possible compensation for the original work. You're not buying or stealing a game, you're paying for or not paying for the original effort that went toward making it. Now, ridiculous as it is, you'll find that there are much stiffer penalties for copyright infringement than there is for theft. If you steal a CD from Wal-Mart, the local police will come and fine you, perhaps send you to jail for a little bit of time. If however you download that same CD, the record industries will bride the federal government to send the FBI after you, financially ruining your life with overzealous fines, and sending you to prison. Fair? Hardly. Welcome to a world where corporations rule, because people like you blindly defend them.
"This post has been censored for your protection."

                                --Bureau of Internet Morality

Offline King of Twitch

  • twitch.tv/zapr2k i live for this
  • Score: 141
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #183 on: January 07, 2011, 01:30:10 PM »
I think I understand now.
"I deem his stream to be supreme and highly esteem his Fortnite team!" - The Doritos Pope and his Mountain Dew Crew.

Offline broodwars

  • Hunting for a Pineapple Salad
  • Score: -1011
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #184 on: January 07, 2011, 01:38:32 PM »
It also stifles creativity  because it gives this corporation a recognizable name that they can always use to effectively suck all the air out of the room when someone introduces a new project/character. If somebody starts to release a character Disney sees as a possible threat they can simply announce a mouse comeback and suddenly the upstarts get no attention.

If new animation characters are so weak and toothless that they are upstaged and thrown into obscurity by something as simple as Disney announcing Mickey in a new product, they deserve to be forgotten because they weren't memorable to begin with.  That's called competition, and they lost in the market of ideas.  It's like saying that Nintendo should no longer be able to release Mario games because the release of a new one sucks all the air out of the marketplace so a new Ratchet & Clank game can't find an audience.
 
I'm noticing a distinct lack of respect for property rights in this thread by a few posters, and even less respect for basic decorum from one in particular.  It makes me very sad, and especially makes me wonder whose dog these "corporations" shot, ran over, and then burned alive to deserve this kind of seething level of hatred.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 01:41:34 PM by broodwars »
There was a Signature here. It's gone now.

Offline Morari

  • 46 DC EA D3 17 FE 45 D8 09 23 EB 97 E4 95 64 10 D4 CD B2 C2
  • Score: -7237
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #185 on: January 07, 2011, 01:57:22 PM »
I'm noticing a distinct lack of respect for property rights in this thread by a few posters, and even less respect for basic decorum from one in particular.  It makes me very sad, and especially makes me wonder whose dog these "corporations" shot, ran over, and then burned alive to deserve this kind of seething level of hatred.

The dog that the corporations ran over is called America.
"This post has been censored for your protection."

                                --Bureau of Internet Morality

Offline broodwars

  • Hunting for a Pineapple Salad
  • Score: -1011
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #186 on: January 07, 2011, 01:59:34 PM »
I'm noticing a distinct lack of respect for property rights in this thread by a few posters, and even less respect for basic decorum from one in particular.  It makes me very sad, and especially makes me wonder whose dog these "corporations" shot, ran over, and then burned alive to deserve this kind of seething level of hatred.

The dog that the corporations ran over is called America.

 ::)
There was a Signature here. It's gone now.

Offline ThePerm

  • predicted it first.
  • Score: 64
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #187 on: January 07, 2011, 04:40:05 PM »
i think kdr hit the nail on the head with his statement.  "It exists, thus it is hacked." Thats like some Descartes stuff there.

Sum ergo Hack, or does that mean I am therefore I am hacked!! Existential nightmare!
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 04:44:10 PM by ThePerm »
NWR has permission to use any tentative mockup/artwork I post

Offline Morari

  • 46 DC EA D3 17 FE 45 D8 09 23 EB 97 E4 95 64 10 D4 CD B2 C2
  • Score: -7237
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #188 on: January 07, 2011, 04:52:43 PM »
I wish Morari would be banned. I'm sick of him and his political crap.

I'm sick of ignorant people. Go kill yourself.
"This post has been censored for your protection."

                                --Bureau of Internet Morality

Offline broodwars

  • Hunting for a Pineapple Salad
  • Score: -1011
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #189 on: January 07, 2011, 04:54:00 PM »
I wish Morari would be banned. I'm sick of him and his political crap.

I'm sick of ignorant people. Go kill yourself.

Ok, you've officially crossed the line.  I'm with Chozo.
There was a Signature here. It's gone now.

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #190 on: January 07, 2011, 04:54:42 PM »
Me to, that is way beyond acceptable.
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline vudu

  • You'd probably all be better off if I really were dead.
  • NWR Junior Ranger
  • Score: -19
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #191 on: January 07, 2011, 04:55:50 PM »
DAMN IT WHY ARE YOU GUYS MAKING ME DO WORK
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!