Topic: HAY LETS TALK ABOUT PIRACY IN HERE

[Morari]

It took this long because the homebrew community was largely happy with the Other OS option. Sony took that away and everything crumbled down around them pretty quick. The hackers will always win. I don't understand why companies continue to waste time and money fighting them for the long haul.

[BranDonk Kong]

You really can't appreciate this unless you watch the 44 minute video or read the 144 page PDF that explains everything. They didn't just figure out "the random number," one hack lead to another which lead to another and so on until they needed to figure out two variables, one of which was a constant "the random number" which lead them to figure out the other variable...and now (all existing consoles at least) the PS3 is hacked, forever. I probably just explained it horribly, but basically each of the security system's shortcomings came into play.

[BlackNMild2k1]

But if it wasn't for OtherOS, we could have been here 3 years ago.


& who knows how the  PS3 would be doing right now if it was free access to the whole system 3 years ago.

[Chozo Ghost]

I think that was a major selling point for the PSP for the first few years of its life, because there were no decent games until the last year or two. People were buying the PSP and then pirating stuff on it as opposed to actually buying PSP games.

[TJ Spyke]

That's the only reason I bought a used PSP, because of how easy it was to mod.

[BranDonk Kong]

Word. I think I've only played like 2 or 3 actual PSP games on my PSP, I mainly just use the CPS2, SNES, Genesis emulators, etc, or do Remote Play (very rarely) with my (JailBroken) PS3.

[Ian Sane]

The really amazing thing here is that it was something so ridiculously stupid and yet took THIS much time before anyone figured it out.

I figure it's because it is so stupid that hackers would never think to look for it.  It's like you plan to rob a place and have this big elaborate plan in mind and then it turns out the front door was left unlocked.

[KDR_11k]

Perhaps the random number generator isn't seeded, that's a neat problem with old games because you can game the random generator that way if you're doing a TAS.

[broodwars]

You have to love how many die-hard Linux lovers are suddenly coming out of the woodwork to justify this hack based on the loss of Other OS.  Sorry, but I don't buy that excuse.  All this is going to lead to is a massive increase in piracy and a similar increase in forced firmware updates for legitimate PS3 users...all because a relative handful of people are butt-hurt over losing a feature no one else used (and apparently there's no reason to have on the PS3 anyway, since from what I've read the PS3 is so lacking in RAM and whatnot that you get a very stripped-down version of Linux).  I have no problem with benevolent hackers, who hack something for a challenge and then turn around and warn the affected companies that those security holes exist.  But stuff like this is just hackers looking for a reason to legitimize petty vendettas with multi-billion dollar companies.

[oohhboy]

Aahh, there is always a white knight in every forum for every multinational...

Sony should have left in the other OS feature. A large part of why the PS3 hasn't been hacked like this until now because it hasn't been perceived as necessary. The removal lit a fire under the community that had been active for a long time, but making slow progress because they felt they didn't need to.

Yes there is the side effect of opening up the machine to piracy, but you put a lock on something in the open, someone is going to have a go at breaking it. Sure, they could have told Sony, but given how fundamental it is, there is nothing that could have been done. Besides what is the fun in that and what gets a company moving faster than bad PR.

In any case, the security served it's function by delaying open piracy for years. Sony, Nintendo and MS did more than enough damage to the PS3 sales numbers for piracy to be even be a significant factor even if this happened on day one.

[BranDonk Kong]

PS3 has 512MB RAM (256 system, 256 video), and Linux is not a RAM hog to begin with...it also has 7 3.2Ghz cores. Of course (as a side effect) all of this will make piracy *easier* but it's already incredibly easy as is. They've been working on this for a long time, and has nothing to do with the existing PSJailBreak stuff (which was designed for piracy). The first thing they're going to release is AsbestOS.pup which will install Linux...and not let you play copied games, but there's nothing they can do to stop you. Firmware updates aren't going to do a damn thing.

[Chozo Ghost]

You have to love how many die-hard Linux lovers are suddenly coming out of the woodwork to justify this hack based on the loss of Other OS.  Sorry, but I don't buy that excuse.  All this is going to lead to is a massive increase in piracy and a similar increase in forced firmware updates for legitimate PS3 users...all because a relative handful of people are butt-hurt over losing a feature no one else used (and apparently there's no reason to have on the PS3 anyway, since from what I've read the PS3 is so lacking in RAM and whatnot that you get a very stripped-down version of Linux).  I have no problem with benevolent hackers, who hack something for a challenge and then turn around and warn the affected companies that those security holes exist.  But stuff like this is just hackers looking for a reason to legitimize petty vendettas with multi-billion dollar companies.

Well, Sony stripped out a feature in already purchased products that they had advertised was there. It may be a minor feature that few used, but its the principle of a business deleting a feature in a product that has already been purchased that has people pissed off. If I own a product which had certain features advertised and the company that made it later pulled that feature out then I'm going to be damn well pissed off about that, even if it wasn't a feature I used or was ever going to use anyway. Because like I said its the principle of it.

Don't try to claim I condone piracy, because I don't. But I do feel on some level that the PS3 being cracked is karma for removing a feature which consumers had already paid for.

[TJ Spyke]

Pirates would have tried to crack it even if they kept the feature in. Remember that they Linux out specifically because someone had cracked the PS3 already using Linux.

[Chozo Ghost]

It is interesting that this major crack didn't occur until not long AFTER the patch that took away the Other OS feature. Of course, the crack might have happened even if Other OS was never removed, but the timing is interesting.

Also, if the PS3 was going to be cracked with or without Other OS being removed, then what did Sony gain by taking it out? If they left it in place the PS3 may still have been cracked, but at least the pirates wouldn't be able to use that as an excuse to legitimize it. By taking it out, Sony validated the cracking. And now since its already cracked, why can't Sony put Other OS back in? The damage is already done, so why not bring it back? Bringing it back will remove the major argument pirates have for what they do, so I would think for that reason it would be in Sony's interest to bring the feature back.

[stevey]

Pirates would have tried to crack it even if they kept the feature in. Remember that they Linux out specifically because someone had cracked the PS3 already using Linux.

Would've tried and fail. The guys that are out for piracy aren't that smart or dedicated. Also the 'crack' they made with linux was kind of useless, required annoying hardware/timing, and very hit or miss.

[TJ Spyke]

Somehow I doubt the PS3 would have been the first video game system (or electronic device in general) that wasn't cracked.

[BranDonk Kong]

When did someone actually crack the PS3 before? I know GeoHot had done some stuff with it (and he may already have figured out everything that is being revealed now long ago), but he never released anything, and it was a hardware based attack. Removing Linux would have never stopped the current exploit from happening (and obviously didn't). It was just a completely stupid move by Sony, and now, they're going to pay for it. The hackers also showed that there was no real reason for Sony to not allow OtherOS on the PS3 Slim to begin with.

[TJ Spyke]

Pay for what? If you mean removing OtherOS, hackers and pirates would have done this anyways. It's delusional to think otherwise, and it doesn't make it legal or acceptable. If you mean stupid by making such a stupid rookie security mistake, I agree. Even somebody in their first semester as a programmer wouldn't have made such a basic mistake.

[BranDonk Kong]

I mean both. If you are familiar with the people in fail0verfl0w and what they did with the Wii (and before that as well), then you know that piracy is not their aim. Just like they say, you either support Linux on your hardware, or they'll hack it and put it on there themselves. There are some who immediately jump on these opportunities (such as Waninkoko) who please the pirates, but these aren't the people doing the "real" work. Again, the PSJailBreak has been out for several months, and the sole purpose of that is piracy, but as a side effect allows you to install and run homebrew as well. The sole purpose of the new exploit is to turn on your PS3 and have it boot into Linux (on any model, with any firmware), but as a side effect it will of course facilitate piracy. They picked the lock to Sony's door, it's not their fault that Sony threw away the key. I can't say that this is technically illegal or not, but certainly it's acceptable. Whether or not you bought a PS3 to use Linux in the past, the fact that it was an advertised (and not minor) feature of the system that was unjustly taken away (and for absolutely no reason, apparently) then I believe you are morally justified in getting this feature back on your system. I'm not a big-time Linux user (probably would be if I didn't have a wife and kids), but I have installed it on my PC at work, and used to run x-DSL on my Xbox, and I'm looking forward to being able to get rid of my PC in my family room and just use my PS3 as my (BluRay equipped) HTPC. It's basically like this - whether you support this or not, it's fucking awesome, especially since the entire console will be unlocked.

[Chozo Ghost]

Pay for what? If you mean removing OtherOS, hackers and pirates would have done this anyways. It's delusional to think otherwise, and it doesn't make it legal or acceptable. If you mean stupid by making such a stupid rookie security mistake, I agree. Even somebody in their first semester as a programmer wouldn't have made such a basic mistake.

You didn't answer my questions (which were for everyone really, but directed at you in particular).

[Spak-Spang]

I have no problem with hobbyists practicing coding through hacking and cracking security systems.  But, I am really frustrated about the lack of respect some people have for businesses and intellectual properties in today's society. 

The time may be interesting, but this has nothing to do with Linux...someone just wanted to hack a system, and unfortunately for Sony, and every other gaming company it means the pirates win again.  Which is very frustrating and sad...and goes to hurt everyone in the industry and the gamers, because this type of stuff when it gets out promotes piracy plan and simple. 

I also do not agree that you can justify this by saying, Sony took a feature away that people wanted.  Nintendo took out Gameboy Advance support in the newer DS.  That doesn't give me the right to complain and then hack the system to play games.  The feature was removed, probably for reasons of security in the first place. 

I also really hate the analogy if you have a locked door someone must unlock it.  That is twisted logic, and if it is true...is a testament to how selfish and I would dare say evil our society is.  People should have the right to protect themselves and businesses should have the right to change their products and protect their properties.

That being said, like I started before I have no problem with the hobbyists, and I don't know if this is illegal, but they shouldn't be pressed at all for legal action.  And I agree that Sony taking an advertised feature and not just taking it away from new PS3s like backwards compatibility but taking it away from all users is pretty low. 

[TJ Spyke]

They are not even slightly morally justified to hack it. Sony had every right to take away Linux, and the reason they did has already been explained. To be honest, I would be happy if Sony found a way to brick every system that did this.

[stevey]

They are not even slightly morally justified to hack it. Sony had every right to take away Linux

Sony has absolutely NO RIGHT to take away Linux in the older PS3. There are many groups out there that bought PS3s solely to network them together and use as a cheap parallel computer clusters including different parts of the US military and many universities that are now out of thousands of dollars. This is no different then Nintendo releasing an update that removes GC BC for every Wii previously made or new DS games that flashes old DS phats to removes their ability to play GBA games. Or even Mircosoft releasing an update for Windows that removes it's ability to connect to internet completely or to non-Microsoft affiliated sites and forbid installing any software that can. If they wants to release new products like that it's their choice but they can not arbitrarily say you're finish with your possessions, buy a new ones or enjoy your bricks suckers.

[BranDonk Kong]

Sony may have had a right (if you read the fine print) to have removed Linux, but they did not have a good reason (and has never been explained), and they screwed every single person that wanted to use Linux and actually play PS3 games on their console. they are *completely* MORALLY justified in what they have done. Your morals belong to you and you alone, you may disagree with someone else's morals, but that doesn't change anything.

[oohhboy]

I have no problem with hobbyists practicing coding through hacking and cracking security systems.  But, I am really frustrated about the lack of respect some people have for businesses and intellectual properties in today's society. 

I also do not agree that you can justify this by saying, Sony took a feature away that people wanted.  Nintendo took out Gameboy Advance support in the newer DS.  That doesn't give me the right to complain and then hack the system to play games.  The feature was removed, probably for reasons of security in the first place. 

I also really hate the analogy if you have a locked door someone must unlock it.  That is twisted logic, and if it is true...is a testament to how selfish and I would dare say evil our society is.  People should have the right to protect themselves and businesses should have the right to change their products and protect their properties.

That being said, like I started before I have no problem with the hobbyists, and I don't know if this is illegal, but they shouldn't be pressed at all for legal action.  And I agree that Sony taking an advertised feature and not just taking it away from new PS3s like backwards compatibility but taking it away from all users is pretty low. 

I am flabbergasted by your lack of curiosity. The universe itself is a big giant lock with it's secrets screaming to be unlocked. For scientists, the laws of nature is both the key and the prize. For others, Sudoku is enough of a mystery, others it is electronic devices, playing games or digging a hole in the ground to see whats underneath(I most certainly did this as a kid).

You find a locked chest or someone gave one to you are you not going to take bolt cutters to it to see what is inside? Or is the idea of Pandoras Box so strong within you that you are frozen with inaction or even flee? If you truly believe this curiosity is so selfish that you even consider it EVIL, then man should have never walked out that cave into the light and just die.

Your DS analogy is broken. Nintendo didn't retroactively disable my DS Phat GBA slot. They made a revised product while still selling the old. If this is what Sony did, then you might have the correct analogy, but this didn't happen. Try harder.

For all your love of intellectual properties and the law you forgot it is a two way street. Laws only work because there is mutual respect between the people in society as a whole to follow the law. Corporations are not people, it's a legal construct or more basically an idea to remove personal responsibility and risk for private rewards. Society as a whole acts to remedy the imbalance caused by the abuse of the law. Just because somebody wrote it down on paper and signed it mean it contains the consent of society as just and to be enforced. Otherwise you could make anything legal or illegal. The civil penalty in the US for a person for piracy is greater than that of actual theft whether it is a CD of said music or billions of dollars. The penalty effectively imposes perpetual bankruptcy for the lifetime of the defendant resulting in a permanent reduction in quality of life short of that person through chance being able to pay off the burden. How is this just? If I stole a CD and got sent to jail, I can look forward to the day that I leave jail in weeks or months time with a chance and with time to clean the record.

Piracy is only a symptom of a greater issue government losing the will of the people and is also one of the results of freedom. Not only of speech, movement and action, but information. Paradoxically, we limit these freedoms in order to enjoy them.

However reactionaries exists because some people feel that these limitations have exceeded their scope. Some are hackers, some form alternate political groups others are protesters, rioters even or the odd terrorist. The methods vary, so more agreeable than others, but they do not exist in a vacuum. An increasing number of people join these groups or give silent consent as these limitations increase without benefit to the greater society or even remotely match society even believes in regardless of benefit.