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Offline BoMbErMaN123

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« on: March 20, 2003, 01:43:18 PM »
If majoras mask is supposed to take place a few months after ocarina of time, how is it that link still has the ocarina of time if he gave it to zelda at the end of ocarina of time?


P.S. if I was wrong about majoras mask taking place a few months after ocarina of time, then nevermind.  
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Offline Gibdo Master

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« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2003, 05:32:27 PM »
I think he gets it from young Zelda after he gets sent back in time. Notice how the last scene is in the ending of Ocarina is young Link and Zelda meeting. Maybe Link was able to convince Zelda to give it to him for safe keeping. Still it seems like they just forgot about that part as well as one or two other things I can't remember right now.

I also think there will be some similar problems in Wind Waker.

SPOILER WARNING.

If Wind Waker takes place 100 years after the events of Adult Link then how is the Master Sword in the game. You see when Link was sent back in time by Zelda it was my understanding he took the sword with him. He was shown standing by it after all as young Link. So how does it end up in the future? Very similar to the question of how did Link have the Ocarina of Time in Majora's Mask. I suppose the answer is that Link didn't actually take the Master Sword with him when he was sent back in time and was shown standing next to child Link's time line Master Sword at the end of Ocarina instead. Did that make any sense?
 
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2003, 06:44:30 PM »
More Back to the Future/Bill & Ted's logic here I see...

Early in Majora's Mask, Young Zelda gives Young Link her virginity--! I mean, the Ocarina of Time as a form of insurance right before he sets off into the lost woods in search of Navi, Skullkid, his Uncle from Zelda3, BigBird, whatever--the game never makes it clear.  This occurs in the cutscene the moment Link retrieves the Ocarina from the lunatic Skullkid at the end of your very first 3-day cycle.

As for the Master Sword, as long as it's in Hyrule, it'll end up in Hyrule's future, RIGHT?  However you look at it, 100 years after Adult Link or 107 years after Young Link, the Master Sword sword didn't leave the earth and plant itself in the Mushroom Kingdom, now did it?

There's better things to think about, like since Ganon was sealed during Big Link's time, is Ganon even still a threat or does he even exist in the past when Link was returned to his former young self?  Since Link set off into Majora's Mask while things were apparently peaceful, apparently a single Ganon existed for all time streams (probably cuz the Triforce pieces exist for all time streams).
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2003, 06:55:56 PM »
I forgot something, since WW's story takes place 100 years after Big Link's Big Adventure, we have to buy the fact that that particular vision of Hyrule wasn't lost or destroyed when Link returned to the past, cuz then the future from that point could've been anything, like a Meteor hit Hyrule, whiping out all Hylians and life and 3 billion years later the Chozo walked the earth and named it Zebes.  Anyway, if Big Link took the Master Sword with him to the past, he could bury it under his treehouse, and Big Zelda (7 years later) could go over to there and dig it out AFTER she sent Big Link to the past, cuz I don't think there could be multiple Master Swords, sorta like Ganon and the Triforce.

Keanu Reeves was in Bill & Ted's [most] Excellent Adventure.  He traveled thru time in a telephone booth before he managed to learn kung-fu and take flight during the 2003 Superbowl Halftime.
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Offline Gibdo Master

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« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2003, 07:24:53 PM »
Well you see I believe that there are two separate time lines. One being the future time line in which Ganon ruled Hyrule for seven years and then was defeated by Link and the Sages. Aonuma (Wind Waker director) said in the Summit interview that Wind Waker takes place 100 yrs after this time line. The other time line in simplest terms is child Link's time line. This is the time line that Zelda sent Link to at the end of Ocarina.

Quote

Where does The Wind Waker fit into the overall timeline of the Legend of Zelda?

Mr. Aonuma: In terms of the storyline, we've decided that this takes place 100 years after the events in The Ocarina of Time. We think that as you play through the game, you'll notice that in the beginning the storyline explains some of the events in The Ocarina of Time. You'll also find hints of things from The Ocarina of Time that exist in The Wind Waker.

There's also a more complicated explanation. If you think back to the end of The Ocarina of Time, there were two endings to that game in different time periods. First Link defeated Ganon as an adult, and then he actually went back to being a child. You could say that The Wind Waker takes place 100 years after the ending in which Link was an adult.
I take this to mean that there are two separate time lines or as Aonuma puts it, "time periods" in the Zelda universe. One time period contains the events of Ganon ruling Hyrule for 7 yrs and Link and the Sages finally defeating him. This time period eventually leads into the events of Wind Waker and probably all the other Zelda games with the definite exception of Majora's Mask.

The other time period though is the one that Link was sent to as a child at the end of Ocarina. One theory I have is that Ganondorf doesn't exist in this time period therefore allowing Link to live out a normal life which is why Zelda sent him there. Anyway in this time period Link goes and meets the Zelda in it and like I said above convinces her to give him the Ocarina for safe keeping. After this the events of Majora's Mask unfold.

This is why the question of how the Master Sword is in Wind Waker is relevant. The way the ending cinema for Ocarina played out it seemed as if though Link took the Master Sword with him when he was turned into a child and sent to the second time period. If this is the case then the Master Sword can't be in the first time period because each time period should be separate. At least that is how I took Aonuma's response anyway. Like I said above it's possible that Link actually left the Master Sword with Zelda and that the Master Sword he was standing in front of as a child at the end of Ocarina was actually that time periods Master Sword.    
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Offline RickPowers

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« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2003, 08:00:39 PM »
Heh ... many of these questions are answered for you right at the beginning of "Wind Waker", and the rest are revealed near the middle.
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Offline Gibdo Master

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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2003, 08:15:08 PM »
Even though the game will be released in a few days I'd like to know if I was close or way off Rick.  
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2003, 08:18:53 PM »
OK, so a meteor does hit Hyrule, melting the polar ice caps and creating the great flood of Noah?
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Offline RickPowers

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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2003, 09:09:55 PM »
WAY off.  
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Offline Army_F_body

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« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2003, 09:22:33 PM »
OK, I get the, I think, OOT- WW conection, but being the continuity freak that I am, how do the other Zelda's fit into the grand theme of things.  If OOT is the first Zelda story, then Link is Link #1.  Zelda history seems to flow from the timeline after Gannon is defeated in OOT, consistent with Zelda 1,2,3,etc(Triforce, Gannon stuck in the Golden Land as evil pig boy, Impa being really old).  I guess Link is sent to his childhood timeline as reward for his bravery(?), thus removed from the "real" Zelda timeline, like the alternate reality Spock from Trek.  Zelda, Gannon, Master sword, etc all remain in the "adult Link" timeline and move forward.  Sooooo, is the WW Link a whole new Link, Link #2.  And if so does he become the Link from Zelda 1,2,3, etc, or are those all new Links too?  Sorry, these things tend to confuse me.  That's why I gave up altogether on Star Trek:Enterprise.  To many brain cramps!

Offline Gibdo Master

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« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2003, 09:31:50 PM »
Yep, there is more than one Link and Zelda since the time line basically covers hundreds if not thousands of years. This was confirmed by Aonuma in the same interview I qouted from in my above post.

Quote

In the beginning of the game, we see Link receive his trademark green tunic. It is explained that Link is the Hero of Time. Just how many Links are there?

Mr. Aonuma: In our opinions, every Zelda game features a different Link. A new hero named Link always rises to fight evil.
I would like to point out that there isn't actually a new Link in every game. Aonuma was just trying to get to the point without getting into messy details. What I mean is that the Link in Ocarina and Majora's Mask are the same and a lot of people feel that the Link from LoZ and AoL are the same. One of my personal opinions is that each new Link and Zelda is a reincarnation of the Ocarina Link and Zelda. I like this because while it's technically a new Link it's actually the same Link. This way you can keep a constant hero throughout the series.  

On the other hand I don't believe that there are multiple Ganons/Ganondorfs. There are really many ways for him to have lived so long. For one thing he has possessed the Triforce of Power which while I don't believe would give him eternal life it could have very well increased it. Also the Dark World/Golden Land may be a sort of Never Never Land where you don't age. Also the ending to Wind Waker would have definitely allowed him to stop aging at least for a while. Finally it's my opinion that he has definitely been resurrected at least once (not counting the Oracle games).

Impa though I believe is a completely different person each time. I think Impa is probably just a title/name for the royal family's nurse maids.

I'm glad that you were able to understand what I was getting at with the different time periods thing. I was afraid it would be a little to confusing. I guess it doesn't matter though since Rick said I was way off unless he was referring to Professional 666 moon/icecap post.

As far as how the games fit together it's kind of hard to say because until after Ocarina was released I don't think that Miyamoto was really concerned about making the story line consistent. Since Ocarina though there seems to be more of an effort to try and tell where the new games fit in the time line. Actually I think it's fairly easy to split the games into groups it is just the idea of figuring out how those groups go together.

Ocarina, Majora's Mask, Wind Waker are definitely related. We know that Majora's takes place 6 months after Link was turned into a child and sent to the second time period and that Wind Waker takes place 100 yrs after Ocarina on the main time period.

Then we have The Legend of Zelda and Adventures of Link which even though it's not concrete I would say they go together on the time line.

Finally you have A Link to the Past and Link's Awakening. Yeah, I know that we have the Oracle games to but to be honest I just feel there are to many contradictions in those games to properly fit with any other game.

Now you just have to decide which order those three groups go in. Actually considering we know for sure that Ocarina is the first game in the time line you really only have to figure out in what order the last two groups go in.  
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Offline StRaNgE

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« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2003, 12:42:03 PM »
now is it just me or does everyone else catch this in OOT  also.

if little link would have never taken the damn sword out he would have never opened the portal  which pathed the way for gannindorf to  take over everything?

sorta like everything he did 7 years in the future was to just correct  his mistake of opening that window of time?

Offline theaveng

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« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2003, 01:33:59 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Gibdo Master
SPOILER WARNING.

If Wind Waker takes place 100 years after the events of Adult Link then how is the Master Sword in the game. You see when Link was sent back in time by Zelda it was my understanding he took the sword with him. He was shown standing by it after all as young Link.

I don't understand what you're talking about?  Whereever the Master Sword ended up, time will eventually pass.  It's called aging.  Link #1 grew old... died.  And then along comes Link #2 100 years later in the Wind Waker, and he retrieves the Master Sword which was just laying around, gathering dust.

Offline Gibdo Master

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« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2003, 01:46:36 PM »
Again with the multiple posting theaveng. My point was that if there are two separate time periods and Link took the Master Sword with him to one of them then it wouldn't be in the other time period. If you say that Link was simply sent back in time then this causes time paradoxes to occur. For one thing this would mean that Link would have to battle Ganon over and over again and be sent back in time by Zelda over and over again. Also Zelda's whole point to sending him back in time was for him to live a normal life. How could he do this though since when he is sent back in time Ganon would be there and he would have to fight him. In other words Zelda had to have sent him to a separate time period/dimension where Ganon doesn't exist.  
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Offline Demonhunter

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« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2003, 06:11:30 AM »
Now heres a question, at the end of OOT, Zelda sends Link back, right? And the timeline Link is in now has no Gannondorf, so where is the triforce of power? Is the triforce in the Sacred Realm, or is it non-existant?

Offline Gibdo Master

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« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2003, 07:59:28 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Demonhunter
Now heres a question, at the end of OOT, Zelda sends Link back, right? And the timeline Link is in now has no Gannondorf, so where is the triforce of power? Is the triforce in the Sacred Realm, or is it non-existant?
What I was saying is that Ganondorf doesn't exist in the time period Link was sent to at the end of Ocarina. He still however exists in the main time line (the one where Ganondorf ruled for 7 yrs and Link and the Sages finally defeated him) although he would be trapped in the Sacred Realm with the Triforce of Power. Wind Waker does explain what happens to each piece of the Triforce after Ocarina of Time and Link did not take the Triforce of Courage with him when Zelda sent him to the second time period.

Keep in mind most of the above stuff is just a theory of mine so don't take it to seriously.    
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Offline RickPowers

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« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2003, 08:22:00 AM »
SPOILER WARNING!  This is the entire text of the intro movie for "Wind Waker."  Some of the questions you are asking are answered here.  Others are answered in the game itself.

That said, Aonuma is absolutely correct.  While some of the games appear to share a common timeline, there are only a few games where it is the same "Link" in each game.  In fact, you'll notice that you get to choose the name of the hero in each game.  "Link" is the name Nintendo has given the character to symbolize YOUR "link" to this world.  The Legend of Zelda games are Action ROLE-PLAYING GAMES.  You take on the role of Link.  In fact, Wind Waker makes it very clear below that this Link is NOT "The Hero of Time" from Ocarina, although the two games share a timeline.

There is also the fact that the games rely a great deal on symbolism, and aren't necessarily meant to be taken literally.  Without spoiling anything, there are changes in "Wind Waker" that would have been absolutely impossible to have come about in 100 years time.  Yet, this is a FANTASY world, and our rules of time and space should not be applied to a world such as this.  It's seems odd to me that people are trying to fit the games into a strict timeline, but are willing to forgive the fact that magic exists and things of that nature.  

Please, just enjoy the games.  How many Links there are and where each game fits in the "grand scheme" is pretty pointless.  Just enjoy it and have fun.  Because if you don't, some of the things that happen in Wind Waker will probably keep you up at night trying to piece it together even more.  

Lastly, I'll also mention that there is an saying along the lines of "Those that do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it ..."  In the fantasy world, this tends to play out as a classic story that is repeated through time, and while the players and locales may change, the overall story remains the same, and so ...

------------------------------------------

This is but one of the legends of which the people speak ...

Long ago, there existed a kingdom where a golden power lay hidden.  It was a prosperous land blessed with green forests, tall mountains, and peace.  But one day, a man of great evil found the golden power and took it for himself ...

With its strength at his command, he spread darkness across the kingdom.  But the, when all hope had died, and the hour of doom seemed at hand ... a young boy clothed in greeen appeared as if from nowhere.

Wielding the blade of evil's bane, he seals the dark one away and gave the land light.  This boy, who traveled through time to save the land, was known as the Hero of Time.  The boy's tale was passed down through generations until it became legend ...

But then ... a day came when a fell wind began to blow across the kingdom.  The great evil that all thought had been forever sealed away by the hero ... once again crept forth from the depths of the earth, eager to resume it's dark designs.  The people believed that the Hero of Time would again return to save them.

... But the Hero did not appear.

Faced by an onslaught of evil, the people could do nothing but appeal to the gods.  In their last hour, as doom drew nigh, they left their future in the hands of fate.

What became of that kingdom ...?  None remain that know.

The memory of the kingdom vanished, but its legend survived on the wind's breath.  On a certain island, it became customary to garb boys in green when they came of age.  Clothed in the green of fields, they aspired to find heroic blades and cast down evil.  The elders wished only for the youths to know courage like the heroes of legend ...
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Offline theaveng

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« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2003, 05:36:19 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Gibdo Master
My point was that if there are two separate time periods and Link took the Master Sword with him to one of them then it wouldn't be in the other time period. If you say that Link was simply sent back in time then this causes time paradoxes to occur.
Of course it does.  The writer of the story screwed up.  That often happens in time travel stories.  So you just say, "It's a fantasy... normal rules don't apply," and then forget it.

I mean, really, there are all *kinds* of paradoxes in Zelda.  Like Magic.  Link falling 10 stories without dying.  A whale with a huge dungeon that is about 5 times larger than the whale's actual body!  We pretend these paradoxes don't exist, so just do the same for the time paradox.

So, repeating what I originally said (with more detail):
- Link travels forward, kills Ganan.
- Link travels back, restores master sword to its place.
- 100 years later, Link #2 come along and retrieves it.
- We assume it's all the same timeline, and ignore the paradox introduced by poor writing.

Offline Gibdo Master

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« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2003, 07:51:54 AM »
Look my whole point in the first place is that Aonuma himself said that there are two time periods. He is the freaking director of Wind Waker so I think he would know. I wasn't just pulling that out of my ass Aonuma himself actually said that. Considering that Miyamoto was supposed to be sitting right beside him I'm sure he agrees with the two time period thing as well. Also things you listed as "paradoxes" are simply inconsistency because it's a video game and video games do have limitations. The story is a different thing. Once again my other point was that having two time periods gets rid of the time paradoxes and simplifies the whole thing. On the other hand the "single timeline theory" is what causes all of those problems.

Also this bull of saying it's a fantasy game so it can't have a coherent story line is crap. So you are telling me you can't put the Lord of the Rings or any of the other stories set in that world into a consistent story line. Yes, I realize it isn't real but for me part of the enjoyment of the Zelda series is the stories. So it's natural that I would want to put them in some order.  Also this isn't Final Fantasy in which it has been stated that none of the games have a connection with each other. With Zelda though the creators of the series have continuously supported the idea that there is a story line. Miyamoto himself had given a time line of the games shortly after Ocarina of Time's release.
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Offline RickPowers

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« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2003, 09:20:58 AM »
Yawn.

Of course, let's just forget that there may be parts of the story that are simply never told, like how the Master Sword might have been recovered, or how Zelda loaned the Ocarina to Link a second time.  It's a GAME people, they shouldn't have to spell the whole damned thing out for you.  Am I the only one that likes using my imagination, or can simply let the inference that something happened that wasn't explicity told to me explain things.  Come on ... you guys are way over analyzing this.  Not all of these games ever expected to have sequels written, and it's pretty clear that there will be holes as a result.  Even the great Miyamoto-san is not infallible.  Wind Waker does a pretty good job of tying things together, but it's not perfect.

Regardless, if you want to get into the whole debate of how Link's time travel screwed things up, and you're going to insist on taking everything literally, let's go two ways about this.  First, Link never "travelled" through time.  Ocarina is very explicit in this matter ... Link was simply kept in another place for seven years.  When he awoke, he gained the ability to go back and forth between the two, which is how there won't ever be two Links in the same place, because at some point, Child Link is put to sleep for seven years.  

OK, so you don't quite buy that?  OK, try this on for size ... Adult Link never existed, and that's a large part of how Ganon managed to escape in the future.  Link was kept in stasis for seven years so that he could grow and take on Ganon, but as soon as he returned to the past, any action would invalidate that future time line, causing that version of Adult Link to never exist.

Still not working for you?  OK, so how about this ... at some point seven years in the future, Child Link and Adult Link meet, and the paradox rips the space/time continuum apart, leaving only Ganon (trapped in another word) to remember everything that has happened in the past, and Hyrule of the future only recalls these events as vague memories or stories of legend ...

I mean, if you want to get all anal about it, you could really ruin the entire storyline or just explain it all away.  You cant win, so you might as well just let it go ...
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Offline enigma487

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« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2003, 09:39:46 AM »
<spam>  Good enough explanation for me Rick.  </spam>