Topic: Celda 2?

[PIAC]

i want a text based zelda like Zork or Adventure

[Mario]

Nintendo are using the Wind Waker engine for the next zelda game, i think that pretty much confirms it will be cel-shaded.

Slightly off topic: I heard Aonuma got promoted to director because of his fantasic work on Wind Waker. *claps*

[Matthew]

I like the cel shading, but I'd also like to see a realistic one. I don't care if he's grown up or is a kid, I just want more Zelda.

[Ninja X]

I hear Miyamoto cannot picture Adult Link being cel-shaded.  My guess is that if a Zelda game requires him, we'll see the realistic style being used once more.  

I really hope for the next-generation Nintendo console, we'll see a realistic Zelda.  The GCN seems to be the home of cel-shaded Zelda.

[mouse_clicker]

Shocking: You're just fooling yourself- the SW2K demo was as much Zelda as anything else. It really pisses me off when people bash it when it's obvious the only reason they're doing it is to convince themselves that cell shading was the better choice.

"Also, I felt like I was watching Soul Calibur...it wasn't Zelda."

Obviously you haven't played Soul Calibur, then- besides being as graphically impressive, I didn't see any similarities (actually, I thought the SW2K demo looked better than SC2). Just because two people are fighting with swords doesn't mean it's Soul Calibur- come up with some original arguments, too.

"There was no whimsy in it. Miyamoto has always put magic in to his games and this clip seemed like it was trying to be some sort of uber-fight which didn't focus on what made Zelda Zelda."

Oh jesus, here's that same crap again- like I said before, who are you to think you know what Miyamoto wants in a Zelda game? And how could you honestly think you know how he would have handled the game if it did follow the SW2K demo? You don't think just because Miyamoto's working with a realistic style his abilities are going to lack, do you? I think that's insulting to him just to imply as much. Besides, you claimed yourself there were more epic swordfights in wind Waker, yet these were somehow different than in your mind than the SW2K demo's? What were the fights, anyway- I don't remember any epic swordfights at all- in fact, the SW2K demo had the best choreographed swordfight I've seen in a elda game, anyway.

WW SPOILERS!

"Link is never as powerful as Ganon. He always beats him with his handed- down tools (Light arrows?) or the Master Sword."

Is this your excuse for an argument, that Link can only use Light Arrows to defeat Ganon? Maybe Link would hae become more powerful- like I said, you don't know the course of the game. Maybe Link would have STARTED off fighting Ganondorf sword-to-sword, but switched the Light Arrows, like he did in Wind Waker. And as for whimsical, Link defeated Ganondorf in WW by stabbing him through the head- there's nothing whimsical about that.

Also, consider the entire demo was made in less than a week- if something like that can be made in 5 or 6 days, consider what could've been done if the game had the funding and development time of Wind Waker.

"Also, CEL-SHADING. Cell = biological unit. Cel = animation cel. Wind Waker is not about biology."

Yeah, and cel also means a unit of velocity; 1 cm per second, yet Wind Waker doesn't have anything to do with measurement of speed.

[StRaNgE]

i still think if nintendo would have released  WW  which  shocked everyone who wanted the old SW demo to be made and then quickly  after  sales peaked shown that the SW version was almost complete and released it  soon after they would have banked some serious cash  flow in thier pockets.

people would have bought both, especially al the free hype and advertising a stunt like that would have got them.
would have been smart business.

[ShockingAlberto]

You always seem to misunderstand what I'm saying.  Ok, I said Miyamoto games have magic and whimsy in them and that I didn't feel that from watching the SW demo.  Did I say that Miyamoto doesn't like realistic Zelda?  That seems to be your main argument; a lot of "Well, you don't know what he really thinks," and "You don't know what you really think!"  Quite frankly, I'm getting tired of both.  I am quite capable of looking at a tech demo and getting a feeling from it.  I am quite capable of playing a game and enjoying it regardless of what it looks like.  I am quite capable of having preferences when it comes to Zelda.  You are, too, but you see fit to argue incessantly with those who don't agree with you and to insult me as a gamer and as a person.

Yes, I have played Soul Calibur.  I am quite good at the game and have had a tournament with friends on an almost monthly basis since the game's release on the Dreamcast.  Perhaps the Soul Calibur analogy was not the best one I could have made, but it certainly did not feel like Zelda.  I would like you to show me anywhere in the series that Link and Ganondorf engaged in a one-on-one sword fight or even came close to doing such.  The vision you're describing (as I gather it, correct me if I'm wrong; I don't want to be the type of person that assumes the opinions of others and tells them that's not what they really mean) of Link engaging in epic sword fights most closely matches Zelda II.  I wouldn't mind a return to Zelda II, but it wouldn't be the same traditonal Zelda that I love.  Yes, I speak for myself, not others.  Do you understand what I'm saying?

And how could you honestly think you know how he would have handled the game if it did follow the SW2K demo? You don't think just because Miyamoto's working with a realistic style his abilities are going to lack, do you?

It's not Miyamoto's abilities I'm doubting, it's the style of Zelda as "realistic" that I dislike.

Quote
What role does realism play in videogames I ask myself. Is this image more interesting? Sometimes.. however, what if a "detailed" hand with 5 fingers is catching a bottle but the fingers pass right through it? Is this still realistic?

I can easily imagine a realisitic Link sword-fighting with Ganondorf.  As an action fan, it excites me and I'd love to play the game.  I can not, however, imagine a realistic Link whipping out a leaf twice his size and using it to slay a Boko Plant.  I can not imagine that same Link sidling along the side of a wall while a search light follows him.  I can not imagine that Link beating up chickens and then being killed by one.  I can not imagine that Link falling 50 ft down a tree trunk in to a web and coming out unhurt.

Realism hurts Zelda.  This is my opinion and I'll stand by it.  There's a perfect mix of realism and fantasy - something that I did not feel from the Space World demo, something I felt from Wind Waker.

-- ShockingAlberto  

[Vanilla Thunder]

Here's how I feel about the topic.

When I first saw the Zelda tech demo at SW2000, I was very impressed.  Though the preset camera angles and such made it clear that it wasn't representative of actual gameplay (this isn't to say they weren't real time graphics) I was still really excited by it.  Essentially, seeing this new watermark for graphics allowed me to imagine the world from OoT in the next generation, any gamer's dream.  I'll never forget reading an e-mail from a buddy I met at Camp Hyrule, and seeing the picture of Ganondorf enclosed within it, with no explanation as to what it was.  I followed the NP logo to their site, and boy, was I blown away.

But by now, the novelty's worn off.  The general consensus with people seems to be that the graphics engine, as impressive as it once was, is now clearly outdated, and that the characters, now that everything's calmed down a bit, appear dry and robotic, lacking soul.  I'd have to agree, though these types of things could easily by solved today, and who wouldn't want to see, say, Epona riding into a brilliant sunset, with each hair on her mane fur-shaded and animated, with clouds of dust whirling up behind her in real-time volumentric fog as she gallops across the gently blowing grass?

Still, after tasting cel-shaded Zelda, I don't want to go back anyways.  Like Shocking said, there's levels of depth and realism that can be accomplished only with cel shading, levels of expression and personality that, with the same cartoony antics that allow them so much freedom, also make them that much more realistic, ironically.  Link's world has never swelled and breathed like it did in Wind Waker, and there are things that simply would never fit in a world bound by nitty gritty details.

I trust that, with Miyamoto's guidance, we'd enjoy the game either way, though somehow I doubt he'll ever make a game as "realistic" as the tech demo.  I think he'll only go as far as Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask did, leaving for a healthy degree of lighthearted fantasy (and lighthearted, mind you, does not mean bright and colorful).  It's just the feeling I get from all of this.

And by the way, I'm not some fanboy praising Nintendo on another awesome move made, I'm giving my true opinions.  That's all there is to it.  

Anyways, back to the REAL topic, I think it's pretty safe to assume that Tetra and the pirates will be with Link throughout his new adventure.  They'll probably find a new country above the sea, one in distress.  They'll investigate and find that some new villain is spreading trouble throughout the land.  Link will go in, navigating perhaps the land's waterways and gulfs and such with his boat, and save the day once again.  And then the Wind Waker epic will truly conclude, with everything resolved in the finding of a second Hyrule.  This story could have millions of possibilities to it.  Personally, I'd like to see Majora again, as well as tall, snowy mountains and lush jungles, environments not visited in WW...  

[Hostile Creation]

Quote
Slightly off topic: I heard Aonuma got promoted to director because of his fantasic work on Wind Waker. *claps*

I believe he's been the director for OoT, MM, and WW.  Miyamoto was only a producer.  As for the graphics, Aonuma (or however you spell it) has said that he prefers the cel-shading to realism, and since he's the director, that'll probably be what goes, at least for now.

[ShockingAlberto]

Aonuma also did Animal Crossing.

-- ShockingAlberto  

[Luciferschild]

I want to see a dark, bad ass, difficult zelda game with adult link. Is that so wrong? Think of zelda with mario sunshine or mp caliber graphics, now that would be sweet. Okay, go ahead and rip on me.      

[ShockingAlberto]

Quote
Originally posted by: Luciferschild
I want to see a dark, bad ass, difficult zelda game with adult link. Is that so wrong? Think of zelda with mario sunshine caliber graphics, now that would be sweet. Okay, go ahead and rip on me.

Well, here's the thing about opinions, Lucifer: everyone's allowed to have them, but you're not allowed to force them on others or insult other people for theirs.

There's nothing wrong with wanting a dark, bad ass, difficult (I agree completely there) Zelda game, I just feel that "bad ass" is not something that usually goes along with the series.  I mean, just because OOT's Link wore an earring doesn't help the fact that he wasn't still just pushing blocks around and getting hurt from falling 10 feet.  Plus, Wind Waker had quite a few dark moments (many would be spoilers, so I'm not going to go in to them here).

-- ShockingAlberto  

[Don'tHate742]

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I can not imagine that Link falling 50 ft down a tree trunk in to a web and coming out unhurt.

Wasn't that in OOT? The game was made realisticly, but still managed to do some of those cracked out things.

Like I said, I don't care if its real or cellied I just want to feel danger again. In WW, I couldn't feel the danger that was sopposedly there, everything was too.....too happy (lack of a better word).

SPOILERS

During that big fight in WW, with all those knights (10 I think), I wasn't afraid I was going to die and start over agian...I thought it was halarious, becuase there is this little goffy looking kid in a tunic jumping around and getting knock on his ass.

END

Flash back to OOT, I remember fighting the Iron knuckles as adult link right before going up to face Ganon in the last battle. I remember that I would awake both of them, then have the craziest battle ever....I felt the danger becuase nothing was out of proportion (knights in WW have little legs), there wasn't a goffy little kid jumping everywhere, and there where HUGE realistic looking axes and arena.


uh done

[Hostile Creation]

The only reason OoT was so much more difficult than WW is because WW's fighting system is so much better and more flexible.

[ShockingAlberto]

Quote
Originally posted by: Don'tHate742

Quote
I can not imagine that Link falling 50 ft down a tree trunk in to a web and coming out unhurt.

Wasn't that in OOT? The game was made realisticly, but still managed to do some of those cracked out things.

I meant the Space World Link.  It also proves my point that you can't be entirely too realistic
- you need the cracked out things to still be Zelda.

-- ShockingAlberto

[Luciferschild]

I wonder if there was a poll on how many people wanted the next zelda game to be like I described or a game like wind waker what the majority would be. Obviously on this site there would be more people who want a game like ww but I don't know if this site represents the average nintendo fan. There are so many hippie gamers on here that want link to carry around flowers instead of a sword and do battle with cute little disney chararcters that I think they scarred everyone else off.  

[SCF]

Quote
Originally posted by: Luciferschild
I wonder if there was a poll on how many people wanted the next zelda game to be like I described or a game like wind waker what the majority would be. Obviously on this site there would be more people who want a game like ww but I don't know if this site represents the average nintendo fan. There are so many hippie gamers on here that want link to carry around flowers instead of a sword and do battle with cute little disney chararcters that I think they scarred everyone else off.

Ummm I think your talking about Kingdom Hearts, and that was a good game. I think Nintendo will do an adult link game...BUT not in the GC life cycle. If they want to start with a bang for the next gen systems wars , why not start with an adult link in a zelda game. Think about it , it makes sense...makes us wait for a couple of more years for this "dark link" game, announce it as a game for their next gen game...( with a killer line up too) make haters love u again and make more blin blin...$$$$ its all about profits people its all about the bejamins.

[ShockingAlberto]

Because, obviously, Nintendo's designers don't know what they're doing.  So, how should we fix such a problem?  The answer is as plain as day:

Polls!

People in masses are always right.  Not those damn hippie gamers, though.  Lucifer, I'm sorry you're too cool to be playing Wind Waker.  I know how embarassing it must be to buy a game that isn't M-Rated.  I also know how important it is that everyone else know it.  Go, Lucifer!  Spread your message throughout the internet!  No one must be forced to play games they don't want to!  How long will Nintendo tie us to chairs and require that we purchase things we don't like?  Damn those handsome devils!

-- ShockingAlberto  

[Hostile Creation]

I laugh.

[Ninja X]

Quote
Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
The only reason OoT was so much more difficult than WW is because WW's fighting system is so much better and more flexible.

True.  I still say Nintendo should have made the enemies smarter.  Or at least their attacks should deal more damage than 1/4th of a heart.    

[NintendoKiD]

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The only reason OoT was so much more difficult than WW is because WW's fighting system is so much better and more flexible.

Flexible? No way! I hate the fighting system in WW. Its the one thing I do not care for, and makes me give this game a 9.5. You have 4 combos of moves, its so boring. The same attack over and over...I like the "hack and slash put your own combo sword play" way better then this. I hope its changed in the next Zelda, or atleast improved with some new techniques.

Also cell shading died along with the Wind Waker, as I said before there are too many games coming out with cell shading and they look HORRIBLE. I hope the next Zelda is not cell shaded, I want some realistic looking Link next game, cell shading was done now its time to move on.

[mouse_clicker]

"You always seem to misunderstand what I'm saying."

I don't even know who you are, and as far as I know, this is the first time we've debated, yet I've already developed a track record of misunderstanding you?

"I am quite capable of looking at a tech demo and getting a feeling from it."

I never said you weren't, btu you were obviously trying to pass judgement on how the game from the demo would have turned out, and that's what you shouldn't do. That has nothing to do with opinions.

"I am quite capable of playing a game and enjoying it regardless of what it looks like. I am quite capable of having preferences when it comes to Zelda. You are, too, but you see fit to argue incessantly with those who don't agree with you and to insult me as a gamer and as a person."

Ah yes, now I bash anyone who doesn't agree with me- if you have read even a quarter of my posts here you would realise that I respect those whose opinions differ from mine. I only get pissed off when people try to tell me the way things are when they obviously have no clue about it. I'M quite capable of reading someone's post and recognizing what's crap and what's a worthwhile opinion that you're merely informing others of rather than enforcing them of. You railed on some guy for trying to ram his opinion down everyone's throat when he started his post with the two words "I want". You seem to have a problem sorting out opinions yourself.

"I would like you to show me anywhere in the series that Link and Ganondorf engaged in a one-on-one sword fight or even came close to doing such."

Don't come down on me for not understanding you when you haven't even grasped what I've said- I never claimed that there was an epic one-on-one swordfight that was similar to the SW2K demo- I said maybe there WOULD have been one in the next Zelda. You say that's not Zelda, but YOU'RE not the one who's in charge of the franchise. You actually told me there were more epic sword

"The vision you're describing (as I gather it, correct me if I'm wrong; I don't want to be the type of person that assumes the opinions of others and tells them that's not what they really mean) of Link engaging in epic sword fights most closely matches Zelda II. I wouldn't mind a return to Zelda II, but it wouldn't be the same traditonal Zelda that I love. Yes, I speak for myself, not others. Do you understand what I'm saying?"

I understand what you're saying perfectly- however, you seem to have skipped the part where I asked you to point out the epic swordfights in WW. And I thought AoL was just as much Zelda as any other game- just because it's different doesn't mean it doesn't fit. Metroid Prime should've taught us all that by now.

Also, don't get all high and mighty with me- however egotistical and arrogant I'm obviously making myself look, it brings you onto the same level.

"It's not Miyamoto's abilities I'm doubting, it's the style of Zelda as "realistic" that I dislike."


NOW the tables are turned- I was ridiculed to no end when WW was first shown for preferring the SW2K demo because I didn't like the idea of cell shading and thought it would'nt fit Zelda. Let me tell you now I was *entirely* wrong- I still would have preferred a Zelda based on the SW2K demo, but I am NEVER going to doubt the  authenticity of the game just because it's making a foray into uncharted territory, and I heavily suggest you do the same.

"I can easily imagine a realisitic Link sword-fighting with Ganondorf. As an action fan, it excites me and I'd love to play the game. I can not, however, imagine a realistic Link whipping out a leaf twice his size and using it to slay a Boko Plant. I can not imagine that same Link sidling along the side of a wall while a search light follows him. I can not imagine that Link beating up chickens and then being killed by one. I can not imagine that Link falling 50 ft down a tree trunk in to a web and coming out unhurt."

Look- I think our core misunderstandin between the two of us, buried under all our insults, is this- I'm not saying Zelda should be entirely realistic, or even that I want that. What I'm saying is I'd like to see a MORE realistic Zelda- OoT and MM were more realistic than WW and I loved both of those games to death. The SW2K demo, to me, wasn't realistic in that sense that, say, Splinter Cell or MGS is- it was realistic in the sense that it took a vision of the world closer to reality. Look at anime- I still consider most of it realistic, but it still retains that style and atmosphere that a lot of people love. Basically, picture OoT or MM with more polygons- that's what I'd like, not realism to the point where it would limit the series in it having to be grounded in reality. It still IS a fantasy tale, but so is Lord of the Rings, so I know it would work. And like somebody else ponited out, what you described happened in OoT.

"Realism hurts Zelda. This is my opinion and I'll stand by it. There's a perfect mix of realism and fantasy - something that I did not feel from the Space World demo, something I felt from Wind Waker."

That's where I disagree- my two favorite Zelda games are OoT and MM, both of which resembled reality quite a bit, while still staying true to their fantasy roots. I felt this from Wind Waker, which is my thrid favorite Zelda game, and I felt it from the SW2K demo- just because Zelda isn't a flat out cartoony doesn't mean it will loose it's atmosphere.



"The only reason OoT was so much more difficult than WW is because WW's fighting system is so much better and more flexible."

No, I think it was because of the fact that enemies and bosses did far less damage- if Nintendo had just increased the damage enemies did, the game would have been much more difficult, I don't think it hurt Wind Waker that much at all, though.

[Luciferschild]

I'm standing up for the people who want a non-kiddie zelda (yes, we are out there) cause no one else is speaking up. We have been persecuted by wind waker fanboys and many of us have gone into hiding. I'm not here to rip ww, just to say that I want the next zelda game to be more along the lines of Oot/Mm. We have different tastes and Miyamoto seems to have forsaken us. I'm sorry about the hippie comment but don't take that as an insult because I actually think hippies are pretty cool. Which reminds me, Miyamoto must of been smoking some strange herbs when he thought up ww.  

[Hostile Creation]

Miyamoto isn't making Zelda.  Aonuma or whatever his name is is now the director.

As foor NintendoKID, I have no idea what you're talking about.  Wind Waker had so many possibilities it's amazing.  Sure, there were only a few standard sword attacks, but mix that in with a parry, a shield block, two hits from the boomerang, a backflip, and finish with a bomb and you've got something that blows OoT out of the water.  Plus, enemies can hit each other, which just adds to the fun.

The enemies should do more damage, though.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

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Originally posted by: LuciferschildWhich reminds me, Miyamoto must of been smoking some strange herbs when he thought up ww.

Not true.  This gave birth to PIKMIN.

WW is Mr. Aonuma's doing, but he was apparently in the same "recreation room" with Miyamoto.