Author Topic: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."  (Read 18253 times)

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Offline broodwars

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2012, 10:51:49 PM »
"Kid Icarus has some of the worst controls in any game I've ever played."

I don't know what Kid Icarus you're playing, but Kid Icarus Uprising didn't have bad controls. It has a learning curve, but I guess you only want games that can be tamed in a second.

Uprising's controls are awful once the game transitions to 3rd person ground combat.  Turning the camera with the stylus is extremely sluggish and imprecise (the 90 degree "quick-turning" often overshoots the very thing I'm turning the camera to see); switching between abilities in the midst of combat using the Dpad is such a chore it's almost not worth the hassle of even using them (plus, you have to take your eyes off the top screen where all the action is to see them); and character movement is very hit-or-miss.  I often dash when I don't want to, and I don't dash when I need to (and yes, I make sure to stop moving to allow the dash to activate).  In the air, I also tend to run into an issue of using my special attack when I don't mean to because an enemy just happens to fly into the lower-left corner where the specials are placed on the bottom screen.

And all of that is secondary to the fact that playing the game as a portable experience just destroys whatever hand is holding the 3DS.  The only way to play that game for more than 5 minutes without inducing carpal tunnel is to use the included stand, which likewise means the best way to play that "portable" game is to sit at a table or desk.  Oh joy.

Like I said, though, the game does enough other things well that I still enjoy the game.  But those controls are awful and show that a stylus (like the Wii pointer before it) is not an acceptable or comfortable substitute for a real analog stick on camera control.

Quote
"People shouldn't have to buy an accessory to make certain 3DS games playable"

Implying that they're unplayable.

Kid Icarus very nearly is and Resident Evil Revelations certainly is a far better game with two pads.  I can't speak for Monster Hunter, but the fact that the Japanese had to get used to an archaic, hand-cramping control configuration like "The Claw" to play Monster Hunter tells me all I need to know about it.

Quote
What kind of f***ed up Luigi's Mansion advertisement were YOU watching?

 :confused; My, you must be young.  Back when Nintendo was originally showing off the GameCube hardware with Luigi's Mansion, one of their big selling points was how you could now play the game like a Twin Stick Shooter, moving Luigi in one direction with one stick while aiming your Vacuum with the other.  It was something you couldn't do on the N64, so it was a big deal with them whenever they showed off the game in the days before the GameCube launch.

Quote
"Considering that one of the main complaints about the DS' main competitor (and the original version of the 3DS) was the lack of a second analog nub"

What "main complaints"? Again, where are you GETTING this stuff from?

I, apparently unlike you, actually listen to Sony-related podcasts, read Sony-related gaming articles, and browse Sony-related message boards.  The lack of a second analog nub was something PSP owners complained about for pretty much the entire length of that handheld's life cycle.  That you aren't aware of this is interesting.

Quote
Yes, they're so "backwards". They obviously didn't invent the D-Pad, the analog stick, the SNES designed controllers, motion controls, touch screen, and all that crap. They're behind because their handheld console doesn't have two pads installed on it! No, it's not that it doesn't HAVE two pads, it's because it's not on there from the start!

The lack of a second circle pad is just one thing in a line of issues across multiple platforms, including the Wii (also no second analog stick, a horrible button layout, and motion control that generally doesn't work even with the accessory meant to fix that).

Quote
And by the way, putting two Circle Pads on the 3DS XL will once again alienate old ambassadors.

You know, I'm really starting to get tired of hearing about the "plight" of all those poor ambassadors who bought the 3DS on Day 1, who have had their asses kissed by Nintendo every single day since then and have access to all those Virtual Console games we mere mortals don't.  They've been more than compensated for the horrors of having to play Steel Diver and Pilotwings Resort on an overpriced handheld.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 11:00:31 PM by broodwars »
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Offline tendoboy1984

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2012, 11:35:48 PM »

And by the way, putting two Circle Pads on the 3DS XL will once again alienate old ambassadors.


Ever heard of patches? The games can be patched to allow for an updated dual analog control scheme. And the addition of a second stick is just another OPTION for developers to use when designing their controls. Many games have customizeable controls, so it would be very easy to just give the player different control options to choose from.


Examples of games that give you optional control layouts include:

- Kid Icarus Uprising
- GoldenEye 007 (Classic Controller Pro or Wii Remote)
- Killzone 3 (DualShock or Move controller)
- Resistance 3 (DualShock or Move Controller)
- Smash Bros. Brawl (GameCube, Classic Controller, Wii Remote and/or Nunchuk)
- DKC Returns (Wii Remote and/or Nunchuk)
- NSMB Wii (Wii Remote and/or Nunchuk)
- GTA 4 (Sixaxis motion controls, Classic button layout, Modern button layout)
- most other shooters and racing games on the PS3 and Xbox 360


Hell, Kid Icarus Uprising even lets you use the Circle Pad Pro, yet you still can't use the second Circle Pad for camera movement!
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 11:41:03 PM by tendoboy1984 »
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Offline Pixelated Pixies

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2012, 01:55:33 AM »
I was going to post a reply but Broodwars has pretty much covered everything I was going to say. So I won't bother...Wait! Does this count as posting a reply?...hmm.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 01:58:40 AM by Pixelated Pixies »
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Offline Ymeegod

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2012, 06:29:24 AM »
"but Kid Icarus Uprising didn't have bad controls. It has a learning curve, but I guess you only want games that can be tamed in a second."

Yet ever professional review states otherwise.  Just because you get "used" to it doesn't mean it wasn't foul to begin with.  I can take an crap next to you and say "hey the smell isn't so bad and you'll get used to it".




Offline Uncle_Optimus

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2012, 07:49:26 AM »
I was curious, so I took a peek at the teardown for the OG 3ds. You can check it out here:
http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Nintendo-3DS-Teardown/5029/1

It looks like quite the densely packed system...I can see the side without the circle pad is where the battery slots. In this case it is understandable when Nintendo states they made a design tradeoff. As for the XL, I have not seem any teardown so I am not ready to call BS on Satoru Iwata when he made this statement.

Actually Ive read transcripts from a few of his earnings report meetings now and I have to say he explains Nintendo's positions on a range of issues rather succinctly (or perhaps I should give the credit to an ace translation job). As such, I do find it needlessly cynical to say "he so full of crap". Disagreement with the features in an end product is one thing, but condemnation for shoddy and misleading management is another.
There is the decent possibility that when this multibillion dollar publicly traded company, that probably doesnt want to hamstring its own competitivness for a reason like "pride" (dont think would go over well with shareholders), says that their very expensive r&d efforts concluded that price-performance-batteryLife measures dictated their decision...well, a decent Perhaps that it did. They have the experience and the history of success in this highly competitive market of portable game players that I can appreciate their judgement.

On an aside, regarding the Vita hardware design and why it can support two sticks, I believe the secret lies in the units base thickness. Exhibit A can be viewed here in Engadgets XL review:
http://www.engadget.com/photos/nintendo-3ds-xl-review/#5138563

Note that the Vita structure thickness exceeds both halves of the XL when closed. Now remember that the XL houses the battery in the lower portion and perhaps this explains the space constraints when compared to Vita's battery compartment. Incidentally, the Vita's 2100 mAh battery delivers about the same range of gameplay hours as the OG 3ds.
 It is an interesting design question to consider how Sony's engineers will (or indeed if they even can) improve the battery life for the inevitable next hardware model. I assume they wont be increasing screen size and I dont know how much miniaturization of several key hardware components can save in space. If only battery tech could improve beyond the sad low incremental arc of this current age.



Edit: kudos for the funny OP btw, OooohBoi
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 07:52:44 AM by Uncle_Optimus »

Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2012, 08:00:17 AM »
I honestly don't think Kid Icarus would control better with two sticks. To aim at the speeds required by that game the sensitivity on the right stick would have to be pretty damn high, and it would likely be just as hard to aim as it is now.

Back on topic, as I've argued before, Nintendo simply doesn't want a second analog to be the standard on 3DS. The Circle Pad Pro exists solely to get Capcom to put Monster Hunter on the platform, like the Classic Controller Pro before it. I understand that this is not a popular stance, and I don't really agree with it myself, but at this point I think it's fairly clear that that's what's going on.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2012, 08:11:21 AM »
Let's look at the fact that the PlayStation Vita is bombing while 3DS is breaking records set by the DS,

The Vita just launched in March. Is your memory that short that you don't remember that the 3DS also struggled in its first months of existence? I don't think the Vita right now is doing any worse than the 3DS did at this point in its life... of course the Vita probably isn't going to see a substantial price drop or hit games in the near future. But that's not the point. I think a few years from now the Vita will have turned around. We've seen that already happen with the PSP, which got off to a shitty start and did poorly up until Monster Hunter was released and its really turned around since then.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2012, 08:57:12 AM »
The Vita is doing worse than the 3DS was at this point in its life, but I think it's ridiculous to argue that has anything to do with how many analog sticks it has, which was the context in which that comparison was made. If you want to discuss the relative merits of the two handhelds, this is not the thread for that.
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Offline Pixelated Pixies

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2012, 11:00:59 AM »
I was curious, so I took a peek at the teardown for the OG 3ds. You can check it out here:
http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Nintendo-3DS-Teardown/5029/1

It looks like quite the densely packed system...I can see the side without the circle pad is where the battery slots. In this case it is understandable when Nintendo states they made a design tradeoff. As for the XL, I have not seem any teardown so I am not ready to call BS on Satoru Iwata when he made this statement.


Not to suggest that Iwata is lying in this instance, but Nintendo do spout BS reasons all the time for why they do or don't do certain things. Remember when Miyamoto said that the reason NSMB Wii didn't have online multiplayer was because the game already tapped the Wii's processing power? That still makes me chuckle. I think part of why people get so agitated at Nintendo is because their rationale is so inexplicable.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2012, 11:10:13 AM »
Nintendo made the screens larger and the body larger to accomodate the screens, everything else is either pretty much the same size as the original 3DS or could have been made smaller. Is all that extra space really being occupied by the battery? I'm not sure I believe that. So, I find Iwata's explanation dubious at best though I can wait until ifixit does a teardown to make any final judgements on it.

If Nintendo wanted the XL to have the right circle pad, it would have the right circle pad. That's why they pay the people who make up their research and development department to come up with solutions to these things.

R&D employee: Oh, there isn't enough space for the right circle pad.
Iwata: Make space. That's your job. Wait, where did these bananas come from?

Nintendo didn't want the right circle pad so there is no right circle pad. I'm not arguing for or against including one. I want no part of that. All I'm saying is that it's pretty obvious why the right circle pad isn't there.

Offline Uncle_Optimus

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2012, 01:41:31 AM »
Back on topic, as I've argued before, Nintendo simply doesn't want a second analog to be the standard on 3DS. The Circle Pad Pro exists solely to get Capcom to put Monster Hunter on the platform, like the Classic Controller Pro before it. I understand that this is not a popular stance, and I don't really agree with it myself, but at this point I think it's fairly clear that that's what's going on.

I wonder if they rue the agreement at all (probably not, that one title practically puts Japan in the bag).
When they showed the custom controller for Tri there was Generally excitement. In the case of 3ds it Looks to have created something of a headache...not a surpise, the CPP sent a mixed message they apparently did not intend to transmit.
Of course, with the CPP XL due, the cynicism wont be going away anytime soon!


Offline Adrock

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2012, 01:57:27 AM »
The important thing is that 3DS is getting Monster Hunter 4. The series is such a juggernaut in Japan that people will buy the Circle Pad Pro and the Circle Pad Pro XL just to play the game if they don't have it already. That's probably part of the reason why Nintendo chose not include the right circle pad with the XL. They didn't need to. They got what they wanted. They made sure one of the most popular franchises in Japan is absolutely coming to their handheld. And it's being made with the hardware in mind. Even if Capcom ports the game to Vita, it will play better on 3DS. 3DS is already outperforming Vita and they took the one game that could have given Sony a fighting chance. Talk about a win. Now, imagine if it doesn't get ported. Imagine if Nintendo was able to get Monster Hunter 4 exclusive on 3DS; thus far, it is. Game over. They took away one of Sony's biggest 3rd party assets last generation and they took it with a big **** you. That's like how the Lakers scored Steve Nash for a few bad draft picks and some cash. They're clearly the winners in this even if they had to release a hideous peripheral.

Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2012, 08:03:52 AM »
Adrock, even without Monster Hunter the Vita could be saved by some other franchise which ends up becoming the next big thing. Monster Hunter is a new franchise that appeared out of the blue a few years ago without warning. There's every possibility something else could likewise appear out of nowhere and rescue the Vita. We can't count it out just yet. Miracles do happen.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2012, 09:33:46 AM »
The problem with that possibility is that the only reason Monster Hunter was the savior of the PSP is because the DS wasn't powerful enough to run it. For the Vita to have the same kind of success, there would have to be a hugely popular idea that comes out of the blue that the 3DS isn't capable of running, which seems a lot less likely.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2012, 11:06:29 AM »
Adrock, even without Monster Hunter the Vita could be saved by some other franchise which ends up becoming the next big thing. Monster Hunter is a new franchise that appeared out of the blue a few years ago without warning. There's every possibility something else could likewise appear out of nowhere and rescue the Vita. We can't count it out just yet. Miracles do happen.
In that highly unlikely situation, yes. Do you really think a new franchise like that going to happen out of the blue? I don't though I never said it wasn't possible. Your suggested miracle game has a lot stacked against it. Even Monster Hunter didn't stop DS, it only kept PSP relevant. Losing Monster Hunter is a big deal for Sony. For any game to help Vita in really meaningful way, it would have to have an even bigger social and cultural impact that Monster Hunter had and go up against a 3DS that now has Monster Hunter. That's asking a lot for one game.

Still, and to try to bring this discussion back on topic, Nintendo didn't include a right circle pad and the sky didn't fall. Again, I'm not arguing for or against it because the argument is pointless. It didn't happen and we all have to live with it. What did happen is that Nintendo still found a way to get Monster Hunter on 3DS.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 11:44:56 AM by Adrock »

Offline Uncle_Optimus

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2012, 01:10:33 AM »
The important thing is that 3DS is getting Monster Hunter 4. The series is such a juggernaut in Japan that people will buy the Circle Pad Pro and the Circle Pad Pro XL just to play the game if they don't have it already. They made sure one of the most popular franchises in Japan is absolutely coming to their handheld. And it's being made with the hardware in mind. Even if Capcom ports the game to Vita, it will play better on 3DS.

Why wouldnt it play as well on the Vita? Vita has got the two sticks the MH fans seem to crave, a larger capacitive screen and a...back touch screen (actually I dont know what that one accomplishes).
I am watching Capcom's announcements with great interest. I am guessing a big reason reason why MH Tri went to Wii and MH 4 went to 3ds is development cost...creating ground-up HD assets for such an expansive game when a suitably large audience on a cheaper dev platform were already available. That and/or money hats.
Capcom is surely working on true HD MH assets so I do expect an eventual announcement of MH 4 Freedom Liberation or some such for Vita next year.
Vita actually seems to have better western support, though perhaps TGS will show some strong Japanese titles.

On topic, I am giddy to see the 3ds XL + CPP XL Voltron. Besides girth comparisons, and All other complaints aside, it really floored me how Ugly the original was. I honestly couldnt beleive the news at first.
 Nyko however created a very nice alternative that Even included an extra battery for $30.
http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/05/nyko-power-grip-pro-3ds/

Offline xcwarrior

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2012, 07:41:56 AM »
Most of the best games were on the NES, which has 0 circle pads and two face buttons.

The 3DSXL isn't missing a thing. And once it gets tested for HGH, expect the size to go back down for obvious reasons - it's juicing!
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Offline tendoboy1984

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2012, 02:58:09 PM »
Most of the best games were on the NES, which has 0 circle pads and two face buttons.

The 3DSXL isn't missing a thing. And once it gets tested for HGH, expect the size to go back down for obvious reasons - it's juicing!

NES = 2D
3DS = 3D (polygons)

There's a huge difference. 3D games require some form of analog control for character movement. Try playing a PS1 game with a D-pad...
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2012, 07:18:06 PM »
*Cough*Mario 64DS*Cough*

It worked surprisingly well, but Mario 64 movement and look were separate from each other. One solution is to move the "Look" part of shooters to the pad and have move be digital like a reverse WASD on the ABXY buttons.
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Offline pokepal148

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2012, 08:46:50 PM »
it isnt that simple at all. first off dual analog is far from an industry standard on handhelds. if a developer wants the second analog the circlepad pro is still there. the DS had no analog sticks and it has had great third party support. if it sells third parties will support it.

Offline Hey Einstein!

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2012, 06:42:34 AM »
it isnt that simple at all. first off dual analog is far from an industry standard on handhelds. if a developer wants the second analog the circlepad pro is still there. the DS had no analog sticks and it has had great third party support. if it sells third parties will support it.


Spot on.

Offline DonnyKD

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2012, 10:33:36 AM »

And by the way, putting two Circle Pads on the 3DS XL will once again alienate old ambassadors.


Ever heard of patches? The games can be patched to allow for an updated dual analog control scheme. And the addition of a second stick is just another OPTION for developers to use when designing their controls. Many games have customizeable controls, so it would be very easy to just give the player different control options to choose from.


Examples of games that give you optional control layouts include:

- Kid Icarus Uprising
- GoldenEye 007 (Classic Controller Pro or Wii Remote)
- Killzone 3 (DualShock or Move controller)
- Resistance 3 (DualShock or Move Controller)
- Smash Bros. Brawl (GameCube, Classic Controller, Wii Remote and/or Nunchuk)
- DKC Returns (Wii Remote and/or Nunchuk)
- NSMB Wii (Wii Remote and/or Nunchuk)
- GTA 4 (Sixaxis motion controls, Classic button layout, Modern button layout)
- most other shooters and racing games on the PS3 and Xbox 360


Hell, Kid Icarus Uprising even lets you use the Circle Pad Pro, yet you still can't use the second Circle Pad for camera movement!

Thank you, that has nothing to do with what I was talking about!

Who the hell would want to keep their old 3DS if there was a bigger one with two Circle Pads? A year after the original release?

By the way, kiddies, take a glance at this.



See that blank spot below the ABXY buttons? Yeah, that's where the BATTERY is.

Offline tendoboy1984

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #47 on: July 21, 2012, 12:26:43 AM »
it isnt that simple at all. first off dual analog is far from an industry standard on handhelds. if a developer wants the second analog the circlepad pro is still there. the DS had no analog sticks and it has had great third party support. if it sells third parties will support it.

Most games on the DS were 2D. There weren't many 3D games in the style of Super Mario 64, and for good reason. You can't make 360* movents with a D-pad (not as efficiently as with an analog stick).
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Offline pokepal148

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2012, 06:26:33 PM »
and the 3ds does. the developers that want twinsticks have the circle pad pro with added shoulder button action.(ironically bringing us closer to the traditional console experience then the vita in terms of control.) like i said if it sells well devs will come and now they can.

on the subject of being backwards nwr needs a nice mobile forum experience that actually works.

Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2012, 06:42:02 PM »
In my experience modern smartphones are perfectly capable of running the standard forums without issue. What kind of problems are you having?
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