Topic: Nintendo really wasn't kidding....

[KDR_11k]

Graphics aren't as good as they can get, but they have ceased to be a bottleneck. Large armies wouldn't have been possible on the N64, but they are now with the Cube. What would an improvement bring? Graphics are advanced enough to let you do anything, even LOTR-size battles (if you use sprites, but still). Graphics will no longer further gameplay and will only add more fluff. Many a SNES game couldn't have been done on the NES, even with downspecced graphics, many GC games wouldn't have been possible with the N64, even with simplistic graphics but the 5th gen since the crash won't bring anything that cannot be done on current systems with lower specced graphics. That's why Nintendo is preaching innovation, because with the previous generations better graphics also allowed for better gameplay (well, okay, at least for more gameplay styles) but that's no longer the case with the next gen.

[Bloodworth]

My best example in this whole question of graphics is the DS vs the PSP.  Yes, the PSP can clearly handle sharper, cleaner 3D games, but the fact is that the gameplay would be almost identical if it weren't for the unique features on the DS.  I don't know about you guys, but once I start playing a game, the oohs and aahs of the graphics just kind of fade into the background.  I'm focused on navigating the game and doing whatever I have to do.  I don't have time to look at how well-modeled the trees are in Burnout 3 because they're going by way too freaking fast.

[Ian Sane]

"My best example in this whole question of graphics is the DS vs the PSP. Yes, the PSP can clearly handle sharper, cleaner 3D games, but the fact is that the gameplay would be almost identical if it weren't for the unique features on the DS."

There's one flaw with that example: they're portables.  Nintendo (I assume) went with "inferior" hardware because of battery life and price.  With consoles you don't have to shrink everything down so you can be more flexible with the cost of the hardware and obviously battery life isn't an issue at all.  If the DS was not a portable odds are it would be more on par graphically with the PSP and would use optical media.

[ThePerm]

also, as portable games their gonna end up being limited in some way....

the graphics for morrowind arent too shaby...the thing that impresses me are the size of the levels, the character detail and the grass. The one thing i assume is Nintendo will take the things the next generation systems can do and make them better.  

[kurst_chao3030]

many of you act like this is the end of gaming, well, sometimes i worry too, but, its only been, like what, 30 years or something. Cmon people, don't worry about, don't reply either, go on with your lives and see what happens, because argueing about it isn't going to make a difference. Games are games, thats it.

[PaLaDiN]

"many of you act like this is the end of gaming, well, sometimes i worry too"

Dude, no.

Once developers realize this whole graphical pissing contest thing is stupid and start focusing on the actual game, gaming can only get better.

I'm actually looking forward to it... I'm glad Nintendo is concentrating less on graphics, although I get the feeling I'm the only one. Bah.

[KDR_11k]

Once developers realize this whole graphical pissing contest thing is stupid and start focusing on the actual game, gaming can only get better.

Hahahahaha... Do you really believe that? Publishers decide the terms and publishers make decisions for marketing reasons and "better gameplay" just isn't a good marketing bullet point. When they don't have graphics to boast with anymore they'll find a new thing to push. Gameplay isn't something that can be summed up in marketing terms, it's relative and for a marketing droid that means they can always write "revolutionary cool new gameplay" on the box no matter how bad it actually is. Gameplay just has to exist, graphics and stuff like that can be shown on the box.

[kurst_chao3030]

you should read the back of an armored core 3 box...vote kdr for moderator!

[Bill Aurion]

"Gameplay just has to exist, graphics and stuff like that can be shown on the box."

And it's for this same reason that the Entertainment industry(at least here in America, but most likely the world) is in the toilet...

[KDR_11k]

But the profits are higher than ever which means the suits think they're doing an awesome job. I think if Nintendo didn't have Miyamoto, who really doesn't care about appeal or profits, they would be similar to EA. Nintendo is very concerned about their profits, too, it's just that Miyamoto showed them ways to make the big profits by creating games that are different from the masses. Now they're preaching gameplay over graphics because they realize that THEIR gameplay IS a selling point. They don't even have to make it a bullet point, their name alone implies it. Nintendo knows that they could cut costs by not trying to compete at the top level when it comes to graphics and instead use their tried and true tactic of exploring new areas with little competition. All these new technologies make graphics too expensive to advance.
Concrete example: EA has graphics teams where everybody has a very specific role and your average character has maybe 6-7 people involved in the creation process. Nintendo currently seeks a new lead artist whose job will be modeling (low and hipoly), rigging, animating and UV mapping, pretty much everything except textures. Ninty's art lead would do the job of 3-4 EA employees. Of course he wouldn't be as fast as those 3-4 people but he'd be cheaper (a top guy, all skills and art lead, gets maybe 100k/a, a beginner level employee about 40k/a, IIRC). Smaller, cheaper teams won't produce the same quality of output in the same timeframe with thew same number of objects but they're cheaper and allow for lower sales numbers to break even. Of course, since art leads are supposed to be allrounders it could be that I'm interpreting more into it than what's there.

[couchmonkey]

Interesting points, KDR.

Maybe it will always be possible to hype graphics.  Until the day when games look like the holodeck in Star Trek, there will be room to add another blade of grass, or improve water physics, and they'll push those things even though most people can't tell the difference.  I remember Steve Jobs talking about the amazing detail in the carpet in Toy Story 2...CARPET! That was probably when I first realized that computer graphics could keep improving for many years or even decades to come, And also that I don't really care.  Not to say it isn't nice, but carpet shouldn't be something worth mentioning when you talk about a movie or a video game (unless it's a technical discussion about computer graphics).

There are also other ways to hype graphics.  How many hours of awesome graphics did you pack into the game?  How many unique objects does the universe have?  Talking to some friends on the weekend, a favourite Sims 2 feature that one person brought up was the ability to arrange bone structures in the face.  It IS cool, but is it part of the game proper?  Well, actually maybe it is.  I think that's a question of taste.  Many people don't consider the Sims itself to be a real game.  But I don't want to get caught up in semantics here, I just thought it was intesting to think about what publishers will hype as graphics head towards their technical peak.

[PaLaDiN]

"Hahahahaha... Do you really believe that? Publishers decide the terms and publishers make decisions for marketing reasons and "better gameplay" just isn't a good marketing bullet point."

And when publishers get it through their heads that spending more money on graphics is going to drive up costs more than sales, then they'll start creating games that people enjoy more so sales will go up.

Like you said, "Now they're preaching gameplay over graphics because they realize that THEIR gameplay IS a selling point."

Once graphics are homogeneous and the average consumer can't tell the difference, publishers will be forced to make their gameplay a selling point. Not entirely of course, but certainly more than they are now. I don't see how you can deny that.

[KDR_11k]

A company like Atari or Activision isn't exactly known for its gameplay. Many people played Nintendo games because a long time ago there wasn't much choice. People realized that Nintendo has a very high signal to noise ratio and remembered the brand name. The name Nintendo alone is already a "bullet point". If, say, Activision adopts a similar strategy, everyone will see their games, look at the graphics and pass them on because for all they know it could just be one of all those really crappy games. A game needs to differentiate itself from the masses. For Nintendo the Nintendo name does this for others they only have graphics at their disposal because there's no way of instantly building up a reputation and without reputation nobody plays their games which in turn makes it hard to build up reputation.
Also, graphics are quantifiable. A suit cannot tell Ocarina of Time from Custer's Revenge when it comes to gameplay but they understand numbers. With bad games the developers are often unaware that they're making a bad game, to them it seems like a good game (artist's blindness, while you work on something you cannot spot its flaws). Making a bad game doesn't necessarily stem from only focussing on graphics or something, making a bad game can also come from enjoying things the masses don't or having a skillset that differs greatly from what the masses have. There is no universal formula for making good gameplay and there is no scale to measure how successful you have been. Feedback on gameplay is slow, it can take years until you've reached a point where you can see whether your idea works at all.
When we made Wakou (that's how we refer to the game, I don't recall its full name...) for some competition, at first the gameplay seemed like a good idea. When I drew up the art assets everyone told me how great they looked (and indeed we won second place in the graphics category) but we didn't realize until a few hours before the end that the gameplay we were going for didn't really work well. We only spent 72 hours to develop that game, imagine someone figuring out that the gameplay is fundamentally flawed and it's best to start over one year and a half into development.

[1day]

The screen shots for the Elder Scrolls 4 look AMAZING, particularly this gorgeous shot:

http://media.pc.gamespy.com/media/702/702491/img_2425197.html

YOU ALSO have to remind yourself of how ENORMOUS the latest Elder Scrolls have been, then you will realize your error in judgement

[KDR_11k]

Gorgeous? Doesn't look that much different from what the current gen does. Okay, the current gen is a bit underpowered when it comes to large, open areas but this is still not something that wows me.

[PaLaDiN]

Yeah, I'm with KDR... nothing particularly wowing about that shot. Been there, done that, just with slightly less viewing distance.

[theRPGFreak]

That screenshot shown proves my point. Sure, the graphics look good, but it is not as big of a jump in technology as it used to be. If we went from the N64 to those graphics, then it would.

[Hostile Creation]

The next generation can do better than that.  Please.  Even if Nintendo is right about graphics not being as important, and I think they are, the systems coming up should be more powerful than that.

[Gamebasher]

They will be! Since they follow the current systems, they will be more powerfull, but what I think is that Nintendo will use that power in far more innovative ways than their competitors. Such as letting us control 100 pikmins at one time running around the screen! Which surely would prove dead-on accurate that it´s the gameplay that comes first!

And Nintendo knows that! So people can whine and lament and complain and slam them as much as they like, when they don´t follow the "trend" of super-cool graphics and lesser gameplay. I owned an xbox last year, but I couldn´t stand it´s big black greedy appearance and it´s near total lack of games made with love! Xbox games simply don´t have the wonderfull atmosphere I feel in every Nintendo game, so I couldn´t keep it. It had to go!

But the GameCube...is still there and isn´t going anywhere! And I do agree with Ms. Pikmin that we should pray for Nintendo, a lot. As she (are you a she?) correctly points out, Nintendo consists of people who like any other human beings are prone to making mistakes and able to make decisions that have certain consequences. Some like them, some don´t. It isn´t easy to be a gamedesigner these days, where the battle for the gameplayers is raging stronger than ever, and where Nintendo must give both what children with their concerned parents and families wants, and what more affluent and independent young adults want.

So I agree to her point, and as a true all-out Nintendo Supporter (not fanboy, mind, as they can´t see anything wrong with the one or ones they adore and so lack the ability in most cases to critisize where appropriate), I think we should bear with Nintendo in good and in bad and be gratefull they still exist! Think I wasn´t dissapointed with them many times? I was. But look where they are taking us now! To a frickin´ revolution...starting with the DS!

 

[Kirby_PopStar]

Quote
Originally posted by: Infernal Monkey Anybody remember 'Picasso'?

And here I thought I was the only one...

[Kirby_PopStar]

Oh, and Gamebasher... I couldn't have said it better myself. Bravo.

[Gamebasher]

It´s NICE to be appreciated here on the Forums! So thanks, Kirby_PopStar!

We should all learn to write crushingly powerfull, cunningly outwitting, damn cool little topics and post that will so impress Nintendo once they have their weekly search of the PGC Forums for the latest gossip about themselves, that they will give the best contributors a Platinum GCN with a WaveBird and a copy of Metroid Prime 2!

We DESERVE that! Don´t you agree?

Afterall, who support Nintendo 110%, and rake the dirt out of their fireplace for them when they forget it themselves!

We do!

Not that I ever expected or demanded they gave us anything, but would be NICE anyway!

Maybe they should create a competition, where the person who write the nicest words about them, will become President of Gametesting Department, with an army of gametesters to do the hard work, while he or she would only have to supervise the others and drink cokes!

   

[kirby_killer_dedede]

Could we get some scans, RPG Dude?