Author Topic: LOZ: 2005  (Read 566789 times)

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Offline Mashiro

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2725 on: July 13, 2007, 09:22:23 AM »
EXACTLY Bill.

That's why I said when companies turn to forums to see what players want it's the dumbest move they can make. Nintendo should just trust in their own creativeness and PH will definitely help to see that that is exactly what they do in the future.

Offline Gamebasher

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RE:The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2726 on: July 14, 2007, 04:46:30 AM »
I see. So perhaps you gentlemen will be so kind and tell me where you then think Nintendo will get their player feedback from? What mistake is it that you are implying they made by looking at fan-based feedback from internet forums?

They would surely understand to just get some ideas from viewing various opinions of games rather than winding up being confused, wouldn´t they? As I recall it, they were intently looking at fanwebsites forums after the 2004 unveiling of the WindWaker cell shaded style Zelda game to understand gamers reactions, and they saw what were the reactions then! Not too happy reactions, I remember. So they later agreed among themselves, that it would be better to go back to making a realistic style Zelda. Which in fact they did, and now they see the result of making a realistic game such as what THEY liked it to be, and not what gamers expected. I will tell you straight off the bat, that Nintendo will always be running behind with regard to meeting gamers expectation if they fail to properly understand what the majority expects from a Zelda game.

The majority are those who hated the WW style Zelda, and whom Nintendo themselves referred to as "many, many people" wanting "a realistic Zelda". I am perhaps expecting too much, if I ask for them to put Miyamoto back into the Directors-chair in order to make a new Zelda game. It may never happen, because he is too busy with too many other projects. He is needed in many places, and has the right to involve himself in what he likes. But one of my biggest wishes as pertaining to the Zelda series, is that he will do like he is now doing with Mario: getting a lot more involved. He is the creator of these game series, and only he knows how they should look and play. And above all, he is the only Nintendo game developer who has ever stated that the expectations of the customers comes first! That is included in interviews linked to in this thread.

Say, a game is made very difficult to play. Tough to get through. Well, if so it had better be one heck of an intriguing, inviting world they make to be in. With lot´s of things to unlock, sights to expect. Otherwise it wouldn´t be worth it to have to go through all of those efforts in order to progress. I, for one, wouldn´t care. I didn´t with Mario Sunshine. Sure it was better in certain ways in the way it played. But that world... It was ugly in many places. Ugly textures, strange beings, stupid water-cannon. All the results of trying to re-innovate the series, so it became fresher, newer. It didn´t. Many reviews reflected how dissapointed people were with it. How tenaciously difficult it was. Mario 64 had a difficulty-variation which was perfectly balanced out for all to try and go through with. You didn´t need all of the stars to complete it. The worlds were fun, and inviting. Awesome accomplishment. Huge applause worldwide. That game was a huge success. What´s wrong with making a sequel? Why stray so far off the proven formula? Because he wants to be innovative? Is it him, or the gamers who will buy the game?

I believe that there is still a majority who prefers the realistic style Zelda, and I have in my posts pointed out what I believe is at fault with the current realistic style Zelda game. The over-reliance on certain game elements alone, and not all of them (GGSM). I have already pointed out above, that the 3D modelling team got over-ambitious with creating the new Hyrule. And that the rest of the developer teams couldn´t catch up. Miyomoto admitted it. So I am right. I merely analyze the feed back coming from Nintendo itself about their games. In this case Zelda TP. But now they are talking about possibly putting Link, in a WW2 setting? Give me a break!!!!!

I can´t demand that an OoT-like game is made again, but I can expect that they don´t take the series too far out, and risk alienating too many gamers from the franchise for lack of meeting expectations. I.e. I mentioned in one of my posts above that Link is an elf, so he belongs in a forest-world, with green beautifull surroundings. Not on an open ocean, in a game where there is so few forests that it was a joke. I read in many places how disspointed people were because of the world they had created for Link to be in then. Everyone at E3 was shocked at it´s unveiling, and Nintendo was just arrogantly scoffing at them. THAT you cannot do as a games company.

And therefore I will include that I will forewarn of consequences for the Zelda series, if Miyamoto does not keep his army of developers in a short leash, and keep the series of track. After the return to a true successor for the Mario series, with Super Mario Galaxy, it is only so clear how much it is precisely that which a majority wants from a Mario game. Huge anticipation isalready building, AND they have themselves said that this is a true sequel to Mario 64. Even Bowser´s in it! No trips to ugly, strange worlds clearly lacking in content and motivation to get through. Only the SAME type of awesome gameplay that only Miyamoto can create. Customers come first. That is why it can NEVER be unimportant to look at gamers opinions, gentlemen! If a game creator starts to think that his opinion comes first, and gamers second, he´s starting to seal his own doom. What, did you just think Nintendo was going to get NO feed back from gamers, and maintain their stance that alone they know what´s best to give us to play?

That is the way it is not wise to make it. Customers have always come first, always will. And since more and more companies wants a piece of the ever growing videogame market, there is increased competition all of the time, and this means that any game maker had better follow intensely what is the precise reaction to games shipped to market. Or they might risk building up irritation in enough gamers to create negative hype, and enough of it, to make them wander off to another console maker - and stay there. They did with SEGA, after SEGA had dragged people around for too long with expensive, under-supported consoles, and too many costly add-on´s. Bad solutions, bad timing. They simply got out of touch with what the gamers wanted, and seeing THAT gamers jumped ship real quick. Sony could just waltz into the market with a perfect and abundantly supported gameconsole which had all of the games, and all of the fun. They have been at the top for two console generations now, maybe they will for a third allthough it doesn´t seem like it. Videogame history that speaks for itself. Take it or leave it. I know what happened.

Right now, the Wii is abundantly supported. That is right now. But this is first, and foremost a Nintendo platform. All else that comes out on it is second- or third party games. The brandname recognition lies in Nintendo games. Otherwise people can go to Microsoft, Sony, and play many off the same games there albeit without the same controls. Those types of controls will be sought copied soon anyway. Nintendo should never forget that in order to stay on top of the world of gaming, they have to do a little of the same that a boxer must: stay in shape all of the time. Now, you can´t say they aren´t doing anything right now for people. They work really hard. But they must be able to properly READ  I F  people are satisfied with what they get - or not! That goes for every game they make. So I hope for Nintendo that they will set up a system to monitor the reactions of gamers ALL over the world, through interviews over a wide demographic, not just a selected number of fanboys who will say anything good about the games for lack of true qualifications as game-reviewers. A system to measure opinions of games, not sales. And gather all of these informations like they do with sales curves currently at every E3 show. Then we shall surely see the true opinions of the games they make. And for the record: that idea is worth a lot if taken into use! But I gladly give it free to Nintendo if they ever happen to read this post.    
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Offline Mashiro

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2727 on: July 14, 2007, 08:15:09 AM »
Quote

I see. So perhaps you gentlemen will be so kind and tell me where you then think Nintendo will get their player feedback from? What mistake is it that you are implying they made by looking at fan-based feedback from internet forums?


Don't take this the wrong way but I just skimmed over whatever else you wrote.

Anyway, there is a difference between listening to player feedback on more controlled scales (such as a survey or even a formal contest to submit ones ideas for a game) and Nintendo looking to a forum for what their players think is good and bad.

If you have ever played World of Warcraft you will see WHY listening to people complain on forums is a horrible idea.

Everyone has their own idea of what is good for the game or what direction the game can head in and when a company starts to cave in to the pressures of it's fan base the game will slowly begin to collapse in on itself.

Heck imagine if Nintendo had listened to the forums after revealing Wind Waker! We NEVER would have seen Wind Waker. It would have been thrown in a fire. The forums exploded with hate over the new Zelda style and fans were in an uproar. Yet, it turned out to be a really awesome Zelda experience.

The point is, we don't always know what is best for a franchise. There is a reason that they are the ones making the games and we aren't.

Offline Gamebasher

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RE:The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2728 on: July 14, 2007, 09:57:06 AM »
Excellent post, Mashiro.

Though tend to disagree with you on most of it.

"Everyone has their own idea of what is good for the game or what direction the game can head in and when a company starts to cave in to the pressures of it's fan base the game will slowly begin to collapse in on itself."

You don´t read what I write completely. Are you just skimming it, again? At the end of my post, I wrote explicitly that I found it wise that Nintendo set up a system to measure gamers opinions of the games they send out to market. And make curves of them, so they can see what they´re doing right and what they aren´t doing right.  That´s what I wrote. I didn´t write that they should stick their heads into a heated forum full of emotional rants and raving. I agree, that it isn´t fans who should exclusively decide what a game should be like. But they should listen to it, and take some of the things into the game. Part what we want, part what they want. That way it is fair. Your insistance that they decide everything was reacted to like I described at that E3. People perceived it arrogant. And there was talk of the end of the company even.

Note that this came from players, the press, on the showfloor. Who do you think has the most power over people´s opinion. The company or the press? The press, if you ask me! And they were the ones to lament the arrogant stance of the company with regard to Wind Waker. They had just experienced a very lame Nintendo show the year before in 2003 where all that Nintendo came up with was a suggestion to make a new Pacman with Namco which had a multi player option. EDGE Magazine, wellknown British industry monthly, exclaimed at one video I saw that they thought this was the end of Nintendo as we knew it. That they thought it would do a SEGA. I remember it all very clearly. Two years later Nintendo had suddenly turned around for the much better, as if they had been given a wake-up call by the press. So the press has awesome power. More than any advertisements, if you ask me.

"Heck imagine if Nintendo had listened to the forums after revealing Wind Waker! We NEVER would have seen Wind Waker. It would have been thrown in a fire. The forums exploded with hate over the new Zelda style and fans were in an uproar. Yet, it turned out to be a really awesome Zelda experience."

That is not what a lot of people thought, myself included. The triforce hunt in particular was tedious and boring. And I have mentioned the other things about it that I and lots of others didn´t like. It was way too difficult to find out what to do in the game, as that ocean was so big, and when you finally got to a location it was often one that required that one had collected some items that were in another part of the map making for lots of annoying backtracking back and forth. In OoT I had that Great Owl to guide me, or Navi, here there was nobody but a talking boat. Very depressing.

So I repeat: It isn´t fans who should exclusively decide what a game should be like. But they (Nintendo) should listen to it, and take some of the things thus desired into the game. Part what we want, part what they want. That way it is fair. If people do not want a cell-shaded game, why was it changed so drastic in the first place? How can they just make such an abrupt change? See, had they first measured properly the opinions of gamers around the world concerning  the other two Zelda´s before it, rather than just look at pure sales numbers, it would have been easy for them to make a Zelda based on the demand of gamers. The customers demands should be met. Miyamoto even states it himself in that interview which I was referring to as linked to in this thread.

So you can hold that you liked Wind Waker. That is fine. But there was lots and lots of people who did not like it. A majority in fact, according what I read somewhere (it´s three years ago, so I don´t remember where it was except that it was on a big website) had been measured based in independent surveys. I recall the figure 70% against the toon shading of Link. That´s a majority. And followingly Nintendo stated that "many, many people" had wanted the realistic Zelda-style.

So yes the ycould have avoided the flack, had they listened to fans at E3 then. The game didn´t sell well, and this is what Eiji Aonuma has stated in an interview was what made them decide to drop the toonshading in the next game.

The bottomline is this: I hold that you can´t continue to see Link change from realistic to toonshaded, back to realistic, and next God knows what form or expression... It is too confusing hurting gamers identification with the game character, the series. So Nintendo should have it as prime principle to measure which is the majority desire as pertaining to game content, style, etc. and which could be done nicely in a advertised survey with strict rules, and specific questions only put to everyone participating. That way, no wild debates would leave confusion instead of insights into gamers desire´s for game content. They would have then measured the fanbase majority opinion, and could work according to that to form outlines for the new game, and work within those guidelines to decide how they would create content for it. Both sides win, both are allowed freedom to choose.

I think it is possible to do it. They should of course only select sane, adult, competent gamers who are above a certain age where they are mature enough to voice their opinion in a sound manner so it would be clear and fair to listen to. Some gamers will just blare out all kinds of things they want, a gazillion things that´s wrong everywhere, and that they want Link in a plane, or a car, or some other nonsense. That is not usefull to a company measuring opinions. What is usefull, in my opinion, are those who can narrow it down to such things as those 4 elements I have mentioned above several times now and talk in a way thus which the developers can understand.

Since there isn´t such a system in existence today, only forums full of crossfires of opinions, biching, ranting, I suggest such be created with strict criteria for what questions to asked, and who will be asked them.  
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Offline Mashiro

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2729 on: July 14, 2007, 10:23:05 AM »
I'm not defining my stance on the feedback thing well enough sorry =)

When it comes to certain elements of a game (post release) I see how feedback is necessary for certain elements. The example of the triforce search is perfect. Heck it was so overly hard in the japanese version that it was changed for the NA release and it was still tedious and boring.

It's in these instances where elements of a game fails that it is wise to listen and say "well the players felt X element wasn't so fun. What can we do with X that will make it more fun? Should we just get rid of X next time around?". No doubt about it they SHOULD do that, delivering the same BAD elements in a game is something no company should do.

Now on the flip side, when it comes to listening to gamers impressions about a game before it is released (those whom base their impressions of a game off of screenshots for example), companies shouldn't listen to that. Example again: Wind Waker. In the end I LOVED playing in a cartoony Zelda world. I did. Maybe not everyone did but my initial impressions were hostile and in the end I loved it. So in those instances I like it when companies stick to their guns, we don't always know what will be fun for us or really interesting to us.

On another side of things it's hard for companies to listen to people over "this is better than this" discussions. What I mean by that is, you Gamebasher LOVE OoT. I did NOT love OoT. I didn't. So when Zelda games are made different from OoT I LOVE it. I love the fact that OoT's elements are copy and pasted into the other 3D Zelda titles. Now I'm not talking about gameplay, I'm talking about the story elements and locations and such. I'm glad they changed things up in the later titles.

So in that way it's hard for a company to sometimes compare things when each game is successful. Now if TP was a FAILURE per say (which it wasn't) then I would say "man Nintendo should look back at what made the other Zeldas great", but it wasn't so I don't think the company should just look back and copy and paste what made the previous game so popular.

It's all situational but in the discussion of Nintendo and in this case Zelda I don't think they need to do looking back or listen to the fans for what made OoT good because they know what makes a ZELDA title good. And that's what matters.

This doesn't cover all games or companies like I said but in this instance I know Zelda is in good hands.

Offline Gamebasher

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RE:The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2730 on: July 14, 2007, 10:54:54 AM »
Mashiro, I liked your post. You write well.

But don´t forget that Miyamoto lamented the fact that they, the developer group, couldn´t catch up with the 3D modelling team like they wanted to. This is what made that game lesser than what it could have been. While hardly as bad as WindWaker was for me it was not complete. I said before that I felt it was like a beta-version of a game, not a final one. So I do maintain my stance that they need to look back on that game, and se what they could have been done better.  
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Offline Mashiro

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2731 on: July 14, 2007, 11:03:35 AM »
Thanks Gamebasher, I respect your point of views as well and you certainly write posts that do back your claims and point of views well.

I ... lol I was going to add more to the discussion but I just can't think of anything more to say.

Once again I respect your views and this has been a fun discussion =) but I think I am bowing out for now.

Offline MarioAllStar

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2732 on: July 14, 2007, 05:42:16 PM »
I believe that Nintendo should use forums only to help recognize faults in past games, not to create the foundation in a new one. Although I enjoyed Twilight Princess, I feel that it was created to satisfy the desire of Zelda fans for a "worthy" successor to Ocarina of Time. This is evident from the game's first trailer:
Quote

Blades will bleed...
Shields will shatter...
But as the light fades...
Will the Hero rise again?
 
Thanks for listening.

Offline Gamebasher

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RE:The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2733 on: July 15, 2007, 12:01:47 AM »
OK, Mashiro, I guess we have also reached the end of this discussion.

And thanks, MarioAllStar. Beautifull!

I agree, you can do that too. They should look at forums to recognize gamers views of mistakes in past games. Forums can be a treasure trove of information for developers if they know how to use it!
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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2734 on: July 15, 2007, 12:08:30 AM »
Eh, I think picking good ideas out of forums is like picking gold coins from a sewage tank...Just not worth the time and effort... =|  
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Offline Mashiro

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RE:The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2735 on: July 15, 2007, 12:09:44 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: MarioAllStar
I believe that Nintendo should use forums only to help recognize faults in past games, not to create the foundation in a new one. Although I enjoyed Twilight Princess, I feel that it was created to satisfy the desire of Zelda fans for a "worthy" successor to Ocarina of Time. This is evident from the game's first trailer:
Quote

Blades will bleed...
Shields will shatter...
But as the light fades...
Will the Hero rise again?



They used the same cinematic trailer with the same music from OoT for Wind Waker as well. Which was so annoying since it didn't fit the Wind Waker style at all. Very lazy. It was awesome for OoT though.

Edit: I stand corrected they didn't use the text like they did last time but they had a narrator talking over it.

Offline Gamebasher

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RE:The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2736 on: July 15, 2007, 03:25:44 AM »
Speaking of trailers, I have one big question.

In one of the first TLP trailers, Link was shown fighting off some Stalfoss Knights, inside a dungeon which looked nearly identical to that dungeon beneath the Well in Kakariko Village where Link found the Eye of Truth in OoT. I have simply never seen it in the final game. There was even a scene where three of them come towards him in Hyrule Field.

Yet, all I ever encountered in Hyrule Field was the Bokoblins, deadly plants, the creatures with the steel shield, and another type of rapid creature which I cannot seem to figure out what is. He is also shown in that same old trailer running across a threaded steel bridge, in a room where there is a torch next to a ladder higher up to the left of him as he is running towards a door in front of the picture. This particular scene reminded me of OoT´s forest temple. But I have never been to such a place yet., There is one Lizard-like Stalfoss type of creature also shown on either a screen shot or in the same trailer (which I cannot find again) and which is inside a dungeon with a spider pushing Link up into a corner that looked much different from the one seen in the Forest Temple in TLP.
 
Is it me, or are all of these in there somewhere in some bonus area? Spoilers are ok, as I simply want to know if any of you have seen these anywhere?

This is a mystery. Did they remove them from the final game?

Thanks.  
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Offline Mashiro

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2737 on: July 15, 2007, 03:33:54 AM »
If it was one of the original trailers from TP there is a high chance that it didn't make it into the game simply because it was still in development. It's fun to watch old trailers and spot what didn't make it into a game =).

I can't give you a definitive answer on if they were in the game or not but chances are it was something they decided to not use in the final version of the game.

Some interesting beta games to read about have been Goldeneye 007 and Sonic 2. Super geeky stuff but it's really fascinating seeing what makes it and what doesn't.  

Edit: OoT probably has the most notorious beta data and trailers that were available to the public. Two of the best beta Zelda moments was the video preview of OoT when it was based off the Mario 64 engine and the other is Link finding the triforce.

Offline Gamebasher

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RE:The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2738 on: July 15, 2007, 03:42:15 AM »
Ok, makes a lot of sense.

Thanks.
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Offline ShyGuy

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2739 on: July 15, 2007, 04:59:25 AM »
Wasn't Link boxing with the Goron in the trailer instead of Sumo as well?

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RE:The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2740 on: July 17, 2007, 01:35:19 PM »
I think so. They should stop launching trailers that show scenes not being in the actual games. I wonder why they can´t just show actual final game footage. Is it for reasons of felt duty to show at least something, even if the game isn´t ready? Then the problem isn´t Nintendo´s but drooling gamers too impatient to wait for the final game´s release.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2741 on: July 17, 2007, 03:30:42 PM »
What the hell?  I remember getting punched by Gorons when I played.  If you blocked with the shield you'd get knocked off-balance.  If you dodged, they'd almost trip and fall.
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Offline ShyGuy

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2742 on: August 01, 2007, 06:14:07 PM »
Gorons just rolled at me (?)

Sixty plus hours in so far. Near the end here, Twilight princess is a better Spiderman game than the Spiderman game!

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2743 on: August 01, 2007, 08:12:54 PM »
You fish way too much.
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Offline ShyGuy

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2744 on: August 04, 2007, 10:53:47 PM »
Sixty Five plus hours and I have completed the game. Excellent ending, I enjoyed the final final boss battle more than any other Zelda boss battle.

Incidentally, I've wonder why human Ganon is called Ganondorf and Pig Ganon is called Ganon. Does Ganon in Gerudo mean pig or beast and Dorf mean man? Ganon = "Pig" Ganondorf = "Pig-Man"

Offline Kairon

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2745 on: August 04, 2007, 11:01:50 PM »
You fish way too much.
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Offline ShyGuy

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RE:The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2746 on: August 04, 2007, 11:40:58 PM »
I did hardly any fishing and I am going to kill you all.

Offline anubis6789

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2747 on: August 05, 2007, 02:49:20 AM »
You fish way too much.  
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Offline Ceric

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2748 on: August 05, 2007, 02:52:06 AM »
What there was fishing? j/k
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Offline ShyGuy

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2749 on: August 05, 2007, 03:47:49 AM »
The time was not spent fishing, I probably fished a total of two hours. The time was spent hunting for bugs, getting pieces of hearts, eploring the country side and doing the sidequests. EXCUSE ME FOR SAVORING THE 10/10 GAME INSTEAD OF SWALLOWING IT WITHOUT TASTING.