Topic: Preordering Games

[Nick DiMola]

Recently in the Zack & Wiki thread, a discussion sprung up involving preordering games in order to show suppliers demand. Apparently GameCock is begging people to preorder small budget games because it spurs the game carriers to order more copies of the game for distribution.

Why is preordering becoming a standard for this industry? I believe this directly links gaming sites who are covering games and giving titles exposure to the gaming crowd direct power over the sales of a particular game (See Halo 3). Essentially we have created a system in gaming where any writer can spam his opinion and it will literally control the fate of the product. Why the hell is this happening? The big game carrier Gamestop is using Joe Shmoe casual gamer out there who preorders games as the representative of the gaming mass.

How do we fix this issue, how can we as gaming enthusiasts push the industry into stocking games(smaller budget) properly without relying on the casual gamer's preorders to determine the fate of a game? Preordering is an unnecessary step in purchasing a game and it ultimately pads the pockets of these big companies allowing them to make money on your invested cash. I refuse to put money down on a game unless I am getting something out of doing so.    

[Kairon]

I make it a point to pre-order games that I'd like to support and hopefully increase shipments for, like Z&W, Dewy, Phoenix Wright, and Trauma Center. But yeah... it'd be nice if I didn't have to think this way.

I think with pre-orders, we basically blame Gamestop's profit move, and all retailer profit motives to begin with. They don't want unsold stock on shelves, so they can probably reduce their financial risk greatly by UNDER-ORDERING the occasional game instead of over-ordering most games, and thus they can use pre-orders to gauge the demand for games better and allow them to adjust their shipment orders downwards in many cases.

Also, there's the increasing push from retailers like Gamestop to sell used games, and extra brand new titles available do nothing to help this profit stream.

... but now that we know that brick and mortars are to blame for this, we shouldn't take it too hard on them. They;re corporations intent on making money, it should be expected. We can't simply lay blame on them, label Gamestop the great Destroyer, and expect anything to come of it: they'll continue to do what they do until the economic reality makes them change, the same economic reality that's making them use the pre-order system to the detriment of small publishers right now.

Basically, I don't see much of a way out pre-order game market dynamic until the games business model changes, and games can be sold under a more consignment-like business plan with less risk for the retailer (aside from shelf-space, of course)... or there's always the possibility of brick and mortar stores being ultimately marginalized once we move to full download distribution...

Until then, I plan to keep pre-ordering third party games at Gamestop... and pre-ordering the rest of my stuff at Familyvideo.com...

Edit: In fact, didn't Nintendo have to sell the NES and its games in toy stores under a deal similar to consignment? That if stock didn't sell, Nintendo would have to buy it back from the store? Or did Nintendo just have to account for any official price drops that happened?

Yup, to get the NES off the ground Nintendo actually had to risk buying back its own stock:

Quote
They called the US. version of the Famicom the 'Nintendo Entertainment System (NES)', and designed it to look less like a videogame console and more like something that would fit in with other home entertainment appliances. Nintendo took steps to make the system seem like a computer or a VCR. Nintendo even agreed to buy back all unsold inventory in order to get retailers to take a chance on them.

[UncleBob]

I believe, originally, Nintendo agreed to buy back unsold stock.  After the first year or so, they no longer had to do that.

[vudu]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
In fact, didn't Nintendo have to sell the NES and its games in toy stores under a deal similar to consignment? That if stock didn't sell, Nintendo would have to buy it back from the store? Or did Nintendo just have to account for any official price drops that happened?

Yup, to get the NES off the ground Nintendo actually had to risk buying back its own stock:

Quote
They called the US. version of the Famicom the 'Nintendo Entertainment System (NES)', and designed it to look less like a videogame console and more like something that would fit in with other home entertainment appliances. Nintendo took steps to make the system seem like a computer or a VCR. Nintendo even agreed to buy back all unsold inventory in order to get retailers to take a chance on them.

You have to realize that the industry was in a completely different place in the mid-eighties.  After Atrai completely crashed everything retailers weren't willing to stock products they didn't think consumers had much interest in unless Nintendo took away the risk.  It's completely unnecessary today.  

The entire concept of preordering is stupid.  If you want my money early you have to make it worth my while by giving me a discount or a freebie.  No other retailer judges demand for games on preorders.  No other industry judges demand for anything on preorders.  Fight the man; if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.  I'm sick of your complacency just as much as I'm sick of mine.

Can I get a Hell Yeah?

[UncleBob]

Hell no.

Quote
. After Atrai completely crashed everything retailers weren't willing to stock products they didn't think consumers had much interest in unless Nintendo took away the risk. It's completely unnecessary today.

This is exactly what's going on right now - Retailers are unwilling to stock products they don't think consumers want (because they haven't been preordered or have no similar previous sales data).  If a company was willing to take away that risk, perhaps retailers would be more willing to order newer games.

The movie industry is set up this way.  Every week, we get *crap-tons* of new release movies in.  Even smaller-scale movies (like, say, some from the Masters of Horror series).  In two-to-four weeks, we typically get to send them back if they haven't sold.  Give us that option with video games, and you'll see more of a variety of video games on the shelves.

[Kairon]

You don't fight the man. That's exactly what the Wii's taught me: You pull the rug out from under his feet. Currently, I see now way to disrupt the pre-order driven Gamestop business plan unless market realities change. Until then, I'll bide my time and live under his strictures, conserving my energy for the real revolution.

Also, yeah, I know that the NES was a completely different situation, but I'm just saying that retailers are right now almost enemies to game publishers, and you have to get past them SOMEHOW. I guess that this is why digital distribution is sooo desirable in plenty of ways for content providers.

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
Hell no.

Quote
. After Atrai completely crashed everything retailers weren't willing to stock products they didn't think consumers had much interest in unless Nintendo took away the risk. It's completely unnecessary today.

This is exactly what's going on right now - Retailers are unwilling to stock products they don't think consumers want (because they haven't been preordered or have no similar previous sales data).  If a company was willing to take away that risk, perhaps retailers would be more willing to order newer games.

The movie industry is set up this way.  Every week, we get *crap-tons* of new release movies in.  Even smaller-scale movies (like, say, some from the Masters of Horror series).  In two-to-four weeks, we typically get to send them back if they haven't sold.  Give us that option with video games, and you'll see more of a variety of video games on the shelves.

Wow really? Then it might be beneficial if we could transition to this business model! I mean... the main thing that publishers and developers are always fighting for is shelf space, and if they really believe that getting their product on the shelf will result in success, then they should be willing to risk buying back unsold product.

Besides, they can still use that unsold product and leverage it in secondary markets, bundle them together, sell them through alternative discount services, etc.

[UltimatePartyBear]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon

Besides, they can still use that unsold product and leverage it in secondary markets, bundle them together, sell them through alternative discount services, etc.

DVDs are already a secondary market in the movie industry, though.  The movie itself should have already made money in the theaters, and they can use that performance to gauge demand for the DVDs.  Video game publishers don't have that luxury, and if you think they're averse to risk now, just wait until they have to face the risk of eating the cost of hundreds of thousands of unsold copies.  

[Kairon]

You're right... Hmm... well then Publishers should do everything they can to drive down the hard costs of manufacturing... but that would involve drastic restructuring of deals with first party manufacturers of the game boxes and discs... hmmm.... this industry model suxors...

[Pale]

See, the causality of Gamecock's comments really piss me off.

People shouldn't preorder games to help small developers.

Game stores should stop sucking to help small developers.

[Kairon]

But we're not game stores... we're powerless... do we just sit here and pray for redemption to rain down from above? Is there ANYTHING we can do?

[vudu]

Order directly from the developer.  Order online from one of a dozen websites that will carry the game without the need for a preorder.  I repeat, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Can I get a Hell Yeah?  

[Kairon]

Do you think that pre-ordering from the developer has as beneficial an impact on the game as pre-ordering from Gamestop? Or should we necessarily accept a less effective way of influencing shipment orders now because we need to think of limiting the overall long-term damage of encouraging Gamestop? Hmmm... ok, I think I'll only buy a select few almost unknown titles from Gamestop from now on, and everything else from alternative indie retailers.

[bustin98]

I buy my games from Walmart. If Walmart doesn't carry it, I'll go directly to the publisher if possible. (I shop at Walmart because my wife is an employee. . .)

Screw pre-ordering. The gamestore gets to sit on the pre-order money collecting interest while I twiddle my thumbs hoping the game doesn't get delayed. If I got a discount for pre-ordering then I would.

Imagine Gamestop sitting on a million Halo3 pre-orders at 5 bucks each. I'd like a piece of the interest payment on 5mil.  

[Kairon]

I don't begrudge Gamestop making money. I begrudge them hurting small developers and publishers.

[Nick DiMola]

I do begrudge Gamestop making money on preorders because it is their driving force to offering the service. They couldn't careless if it guarantees you the game, it guarantees them a sale and it guarantees them interest on preorder cash. The side effect is hurting the small guys. Between that store and the big gaming media, indie gaming is being hurt if not killed. This is a pretty serious issue and only appears to be getting worse. I tend to agree with vudu here, if you aren't a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem...

Preordering is such a crappy system anyway because you never know if you will have the disposable income come release date to actually buy the game. If you don't buy it within x amount of time they sell the copy you preordered, but they had no problem holding your cash and making money on it for 8 months. Total BS.

[Kairon]

Hey, don't worry Mr. Jack! I'm intent on shifting almost all my game purchases to familyvideo.com... in fact, a bulk of my November purchases are ALREADY slotted for that location!

Or do you begrudge me for pre-ordering through that indie site? Would it make you feel better if you knew that online pre-orders through them involve no money down?

[UncleBob]

The problem with FamilyVideo.com is the same as with Gamestop at times - they allow too many pre-orders to go through, then it takes too long to get your game.  If I pre-order, I want the game the day (or day after) it comes out.

[Kairon]

Familyvideo.com will NEVER get the game to you on time, because they ship it cheap, for 99cents, taking about a week to get to you. Which I don't mind frankly because of my backlog, and because I feel like being stingy in that regards.

Is amazon good at getting you the game on launch day? Shipping makes the games more expensive than retail though...

[Mashiro]

This is a good hot topic . . . topic =)

[vudu]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Familyvideo.com will NEVER get the game to you on time, because they ship it cheap, for 99cents, taking about a week to get to you.

I just want to point out that my copy of GH3 shipped from FamilyVideo on Saturday (day before release) and it arrived on Monday.  I couldn't have been happier.

Also, I must point out the irony that after my last post in this thread I went to Target and preordered Mario Galaxy.  It took two clerks and two managers to finally figure out how to do it.  I was halfway amused and halfway annoyed.  Then when I got back to my car I noticed that the preorder card said it wasn't to be sold after 10/28/07.  Oh well.

[that Baby guy]

I don't know how to fix the system, but I hate it.  The only reason to preorder is in the event that demand exceeds supply possibilities, like for the Wii, not for Halo 3.

I hate the system, and really, there should be a law against preorders, giftcards, and silly things that nature, to prevent customer fraud, among other things.

Also, GameStop sucks.

[oohhboy]

The biggest problem I found with game stores is the people who make the purchasing decisions. They don't play games, have no idea what a game is other than a product to be sold. Example, every store in one chain had in excess of 10 copies Goldeneye : Rogue Agent that didn't sell for years. These people just don't understand their product and try to sell it like any other.

The pre-order system is potentially useful for both sides of the counter, but it has been uselessly used as a hard statistic.

Although it doesn't help that the entire chain is garbage.

[Nick DiMola]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Hey, don't worry Mr. Jack! I'm intent on shifting almost all my game purchases to familyvideo.com... in fact, a bulk of my November purchases are ALREADY slotted for that location!

Or do you begrudge me for pre-ordering through that indie site? Would it make you feel better if you knew that online pre-orders through them involve no money down?

I would say supporting other suppliers is a much better thing to do. Gamestop is far too large and actually is able to make a difference in the industry. By not endorsing them or their preorder system you are doing the right thing. Not that Gamestop is some evil establishment, they are just too powerful and control too much of the market which is to the detriment of the gaming industry.

Perhaps these companies can be held to some sort of standard where they guarantee a certain number of copies of their game will sell and anything that doesn't will be recalled. This would probably greatly limit the amount of shovelware out there and fix the supply and preorder issues. Two birds, One stone.

[SixthAngel]

I always hated preorders (especially because you rarely actually get your bonus) and Gamestop having this much power worries me.  I think the best solution would be to expand where video games are sold.  If specialty stores can get so many sales there should be a market for more non specialty stores that stock games.  Specialty stores are usually a horrible way to sell a product anyway, people have to come to your store with the intention to buy, there are very few purchases from people who just run into a product they want.  I think this is why Nintendo seems to be trying to get a good relationship with stores like Walmart and Toys r Us.  They are far better places to sell games then a specialty store.  The question is where else should games be sold and would changes have to be made to do so?

I disagree with you point about gaming sites and the writers having so much pull.  I think the writers of gaming sites are generally impotent.  Look at the DS and to a much lesser extent the Wii.  Every site said the DS would fail and it was a "stopgap" but what they said meant dick.  I think most sites did the same thing with the Wii but tried to disguise it more because of how absolutely incorrect they were about the DS.  Most gaming sites hype games that the big companies want them to as part of the advertising.  They get access to these games at special events, they make a big deal of it because the companies do.  They are basically an extension of the PR campaign even if they like to think of themselves as independent.  Games that get tons of attention on game sites are therefore the biggest games and the sequels that have the biggest PR campaign outside of the gaming sites as well.  They are the games the company sees as the best and biggest.  The gaming sites are just another tributary that adds to the hype of the next big game, always going with the flow.  This is not to say the they have absolutely no pull but imagine how movie reviews would change if the reviewers suddenly had to suck up to the big companies to get the "exclusive."  They certainly wouldn't be what they are now.