Topic: G4 Interview with Iwata Reveals New Details

[KnowsNothing]

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If that were the case, why do we need the nunchuku?

I would imagine swinging around a sword would be diffucult without the sword, don't you agree?  One would also think that aiming a gun would be impossible without the gun.

Games like that wouldn't be possible wihtout the analog stick, but wouldn't work with just the remote.  It doesn't matter how much you tweaked the remote, having the two pieces separate open up new possibilities.  And I enjoy new possibilities.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Innovative possibilities like CHUCK NORRIS NUNCHUCK MASTA.

[odifiend]

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Originally posted by: KnowsNothing

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If that were the case, why do we need the nunchuku?

I would imagine swinging around a sword would be diffucult without the sword, don't you agree?  One would also think that aiming a gun would be impossible without the gun.

Games like that wouldn't be possible wihtout the analog stick, but wouldn't work with just the remote.  It doesn't matter how much you tweaked the remote, having the two pieces separate open up new possibilities.  And I enjoy new possibilities.

Then tweek the remote so that there is no need for the shell.  Don't tell me that is an impossibility as well... That was kind of my point.  If the nunchuku was Nintendo's answer to not having enough buttons, why not make it so that there was one cure all?  The nunchuku or the shell?  They basically designed to DO the same thing,  why make us buy both of them?

[KnowsNothing]

Go ahead, conjure me up a remote with all the functionality of the Wavebird.

Keep in mind, this must be functional for one-handed use and cannot be so complicated so as to scare away nongamers.

[odifiend]

I'm no photoshop artist, but that is where all these "just add a couple more buttons" pictures are coming from.  If you take the nunchuku into consideration we're down 3 buttons and c-stick.  I'm talking about putting those 3 buttons on the remote.  I'm positive there was already a suggestion somewhere in this thread.  2 bean shaped buttons around the A button (3 would resemble the GCN), and the large B split.

"Keep in mind, this must be functional for one-handed use and cannot be so complicated so as to scare away nongamers. "
Jeebus, people.  Non gamers are the same species as us.  In fact most non gamers indulge in more 'important' things like movies.  If they can operate a tv/dvd/vcr/sat/cable univeral remote, don't tell me 3 more face buttons will make them go screaming into the night...
The bottom line is if movement is the primary means for control in non games, that is what will attract non gamers.  It worked for the DS and its stylus, why would the Revolution be any different?

[wandering]

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Originally posted by: IanSane
Personally I don't like this non-gamer strategy largely because to me it's Nintendo selling out. They're putting the fans and the gamers that made them who they are on the backburner in favour of this new group of non-gamers.

Nintendo has NEVER, ever, gone after hardcore gamers. They've always gone after the wider market, the average joes.

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They don't have to be exactly the same as Sony (MS isn't the same as Sony) but they don't have to be totally different either.

Blah. And from someone who claims to dislike cookie-cutter sequels....

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[Now they're going away from depth and complexity to appeal to non-gamers.

I doubt this. You're basing this on, what, marketing speak (that you say you don't buy into)? PORTABLE games (like the fantastic Nintendogs)? The fact that the controller is missing a couple of buttons? Sheesh, have you seen Twilight Princess?

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Originally posted by: odifiend
As for nongames and game-games: I am confident in Nintendo's ability to make games, but am worried that since the nunchuku was an addendum brought on by American devs

I doubt this very highly. If anything, I'd be willing to bet that they started off with a unified two-handed design where both pieces were permanetly connected to each other, before deciding to split them apart and focus on one-handed gameplay for non-gamers.

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I'm no photoshop artist, but that is where all these "just add a couple more buttons" pictures are coming from. If you take the nunchuku into consideration we're down 3 buttons and c-stick.

For the record, we're down 2. The select button counts as a button (just as much as z did, at least.)

And, does it really matter? Looking past this silly notion that every system NEEDS to retain all of the buttons of its predecesor (last I checked, ALL consoles are down quite a bit from, say, the computer keyboard).... can you name any concrete examples in which missing 2 buttons would hamper gameplay in a way that couldn't be fixed even with an added d-pad and motion control?

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The bottom line is if movement is the primary means for control in non games, that is what will attract non gamers. It worked for the DS and its stylus, why would the Revolution be any different?

Because it's doubtful that you could control a REV game with JUST movement.
The 2 button design (A for the thumb, B for the index) is interegal to the whole controller concept. You couldn't just slap more buttons on there willy-nilly, as so many people seem to want Nintendo to do.

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why not make it so that there was one cure all? The nunchuku or the shell?

I look at it thusly: the remote + nunchuck is the ultimate controller, perfectly tuned for the best gameplay experience, with little compromise taken. The remote, by itself, is a simplified version of this controller for simpler games. And the shell is there for classic games and the tiny, minisule, next-to-nothing minority of REV games that need a traditional controller....it's there so that pointless compromises needn't be made to the primary controller. I liken it to the OS9 emulator that's embedded in OSX.

[KDR_11k]

Maybe it was buried somewhere in this thread but I don't reecall hearing Ian's description of what exactly Nintendo is supposed to do. His perfect control setup, his perfect games, etc.

[odifiend]

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Originally posted by: wandering

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[Now they're going away from depth and complexity to appeal to non-gamers.

I doubt this. You're basing this on, what, marketing speak (that you say you don't buy into)? PORTABLE games (like the fantastic Nintendogs)? The fact that the controller is missing a couple of buttons? Sheesh, have you seen Twilight Princess?

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Originally posted by: odifiend
As for nongames and game-games: I am confident in Nintendo's ability to make games, but am worried that since the nunchuku was an addendum brought on by American devs

I doubt this very highly. If anything, I'd be willing to bet that they started off with a unified two-handed design where both pieces were permanetly connected to each other, before deciding to split them apart and focus on one-handed gameplay for non-gamers.

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I'm no photoshop artist, but that is where all these "just add a couple more buttons" pictures are coming from. If you take the nunchuku into consideration we're down 3 buttons and c-stick.

For the record, we're down 2. The select button counts as a button (just as much as z did, at least.)

And, does it really matter? Looking past this silly notion that every system NEEDS to retain all of the buttons of its predecesor (last I checked, ALL consoles are down quite a bit from, say, the computer keyboard).... can you name any concrete examples in which missing 2 buttons would hamper gameplay in a way that couldn't be fixed even with an added d-pad and motion control?

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The bottom line is if movement is the primary means for control in non games, that is what will attract non gamers. It worked for the DS and its stylus, why would the Revolution be any different?

Because it's doubtful that you could control a REV game with JUST movement.
The 2 button design (A for the thumb, B for the index) is interegal to the whole controller concept. You couldn't just slap more buttons on there willy-nilly, as so many people seem to want Nintendo to do.

1) Last I checked TP was a GCN game...  And like every other Zelda created I bet it will take advantage of every button.
2) Just going on what Nintendo said, i.e. American devs wouldn't give them the time of day until they came back with the nunchuku.
3) Select button can be a play button maybe if it is shifted upwards to be more accessible.  You are pretty inane or simply argumentative to compare the select button to the 'z' button.  My finger always rests on z whereas that could never happen with select...
4) LOL, silly notion?  Do you mean backwards compatibility, maybe?  I have to admit the concept of a customisible controller is facinating, but if you can only access backwards compatibility using the shell that means we are forced to pay for that feature.  Was it Miyamoto-san or Iwata-san who liked that Nintendo sold complete out of the box experiences?  Plus let's not forget that stubborn 3rd parties may only be using the shell.  So if there are two separate expansions, there is a chance at any given time you can't play certain kinds of games.

And even if Nintendo ends up boxing all their expansions with the controller, how much do you think that will cost them (since all customers know it is all about the creator) and us?

[Mario]

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The DS is perfectly capable of deep games but Yoshi's Touch 'n' Go and Pokemon Dash still got made.

Yoshi Touch & Go is deep.

[wandering]

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Originally posted by: odifiend
1) Last I checked TP was a GCN game... And like every other Zelda created I bet it will take advantage of every button.
2) Just going on what Nintendo said, i.e. American devs wouldn't give them the time of day until they came back with the nunchuku.
3) Select button can be a play button maybe if it is shifted upwards to be more accessible. You are pretty inane or simply argumentative to compare the select button to the 'z' button. My finger always rests on z whereas that could never happen with select...
4) LOL, silly notion? Do you mean backwards compatibility, maybe? I have to admit the concept of a customisable controller is fascinating, but if you can only access backwards compatibility using the shell that means we are forced to pay for that feature. Was it Miyamoto-san or Iwata-san who liked that Nintendo sold complete out of the box experiences? Plus let's not forget that stubborn 3rd parties may only be using the shell. So if there are two separate expansions, there is a chance at any given time you can't play certain kinds of games.

1) Right. I'd imagine that a game Nintendo is developing for a home console would be more indicative of what they might produce for their next home console than games Nintendo's developed for a pick-up-n-play portable system. Though we won't know for sure until Nintnedo shows us REV games.
(oh, and whether or not TP uses all of the buttons is a moot point, in my eyes. The REV controller pretty much has all of the functionality of the N64 controller + motion control....and next to no one seemed to have a problem with OOT's control/gameplay.)

2) I don't think Iwata's really indicated that they made the nunchaku at the request of western devs, so much as he indicated that western devs didn't 'get' the controller until they saw the nunchaku. Though I could be wrong.

3) I don't use my middle fingers when I play the cube. So, for me, I have to move, and curl, my index finger to hit the z button (and then, every so often, I have to hit z again....the thing's fairly finicky.)
   Just for comparison, the REV metroid demo used select to make samus go into morph ball mode (and people said it was surprisingly easy and comfortable). Imagine the complaints if Prime used Z for the same purpose.
   I wasn't trying to be argumentative, I was just trying to point out that the select button, which you didn't count, would probably be more functional than what many people consider to be the least functional button on the cube (Z), which you did count.

4)Silly because insisting that something shouldn't change just because that's the way it's always been is ALWAYS silly. If we don't challenge assumptions then we don't evolve.
   As for whether requiring the shell to play old games is an ideal solution....no, it isn't. But comprising the REV's primary controller just for the sake of backwards compatibility wouldn't be ideal, either.
     

[Dasmos]

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Originally posted by: PaLaDiN
"The DS is perfectly capable of deep games but Yoshi's Touch 'n' Go and Pokemon Dash still got made. Nintendo's focus is what concerns me."

And there are people who loved Yoshi Touch 'n Go. Are you saying it shouldn't have been made just because you didn't like it?

Correct me if I am wrong but has Ian ever played a DS game properly? From what I have read he hasn't found a game worthy of picking one up. So he doesn't not like the game, he doesn't like the look of the game. It's not the same thing. Maybe if Ian played so many of the games he hates he would have some merit to his arguments.

I didn't like the look oh Pokemon Dash and sure I didn't like Pokemon Dash after I played it, but this isn't true with all games. I didn't like the look of Yoshi Touch 'n Go either, but I picked it up and had a ball. This also applies to gamnes like Killer 7,  that received mixed reviews, that I thought I would have no interest in. So what I am trying to say, just because a game doesn't seem deep and complex, it may well surprise.

[odifiend]

Wandering:
Re:1) Not if the new console is using the DS as a model and the Revolution being pushed as easy to pick up and play.

Re: 3) How do you grab in Smash bros?  And don't give me any of that shield + attack garbage

You are right, I did not include select in the button count just as I didn't include home.  Select is traditionally a menu button, plus it is not that close to the A button to be taken advantage of.  I'd have some complaints personally if I had to reach that low for select every time I wanted to be in morph ball mode.  Have you played MP2?  There are some instances where you want to be in morph ball mode right that second (boss battles esp.), so while MP2 could be possible on NR, it is not ideal without tweeking/shell expansion.  

And that would be fine if Nintendo wasn't touting backwards compatibility.  I'm not resisting taking away buttons because that's how it has always been, I'm resisting their absence because they are integral part to a feature Nintendo is pushing.  Sure you could buy the shell, but then you still need the analoge nunchuku stick.  And let's not forget about those of us who have friends and siblings.  You're looking at an expensive and confusing proposition (SOMEONE SAVE THE NONGAMERS!1!).  Or you could add 2 more conviently placed buttons (relative to select) and split the back B button (creating 2 triggers mirroring the nunchuku), avoiding the shell all together.

EDIT: For clarity hopefully
 

[wandering]

1) well, we'll see.... this argument doesn't really convince me because Nintendo generally tries to make most of their games easy to pick up and play. (See: SMB, Mario 64, Mario Kart.) Their controller takes things one step further, but keep in mind that a) the controller doesn't remove that much functionality (hey, it still has buttons and an analogue stick), and b) Nintendo has already said they are commited to appealing to the existing fanbase by coming out with games like Zelda.

3) A, B: attacks, d-pad: jump, z1: grab, z2: shield, select: taunt (are you forgetting that this game worked with the N64 controller?)

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And that would be fine if Nintendo wasn't touting backwards compatibility. I'm not resisting taking away buttons because that's how it has always been, I'm resisting their absence because they are integral part to a feature Nintendo is pushing. Sure you could buy the shell, but then you still need the analoge nunchuku stick. And let's not forget about those of us who have friends and siblings. You're looking at an expensive and confusing proposition (SOMEONE SAVE THE NONGAMERS!1!). Or you could add 2 more conviently placed buttons (relative to select) and split the back B button (creating 2 triggers mirroring the nunchuku), avoiding the shell all together.

Well, for what it's worth, I'd be willing to bet that a) the shell won't cost extra and b) the REV controller will have at least one more button by the time of release (remember the cube's z button?).

I'll stand by my stance that sacrafices shouldn't be made to the controller just for the sake of backwards compatability. If Nintendo did as you suggested, it wouldn't really work very well with old games (SNES games don't play very well even with the cube controller, and a lot of cube games wouldn't play very well without the c-stick), but nor would it work better for REV games (as it would undermine the controller's simplicity, and require you to move your thumb around a good deal. Nintendo actively tried to avoid requiring the player to move their thumb around  with the REV design because they felt that a) moving your thumb around while also holding the controller in one hand and moving your wrist around would be uncomfortable and b) they felt that non-gamers were intimidated by the, uh, level of thumb cordination that modern games required.)
 

[odifiend]

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Originally posted by: wandering


3) A, B: attacks, d-pad: jump, z1: grab, z2: shield, select: taunt (are you forgetting that this game worked with the N64 controller?)


I'll stand by my stance that sacrafices shouldn't be made to the controller just for the sake of backwards compatability. If Nintendo did as you suggested, it wouldn't really work very well with old games (SNES games don't play very well even with the cube controller, and a lot of cube games wouldn't play very well without the c-stick), but nor would it work better for REV games (as it would undermine the controller's simplicity, and require you to move your thumb around a good deal. Nintendo actively tried to avoid requiring the player to move their thumb around  with the REV design because they felt that a) moving your thumb around while also holding the controller in one hand and moving your wrist around would be uncomfortable and b) they felt that non-gamers were intimidated by the, uh, level of thumb cordination that modern games required.)

I meant how do you, personally, grab in Melee, with you not using Z and all.  And don't forget the N64 controller had more buttons and less moves.

It isn't just backwards compatability though as non exclusive Revolution titles will be using the "traditional" setup.  As for SNES games, shell or no shell you'll likely be SOL, since it sounds like the shell is a wavebird clone.  
Revolution games can still be simple on a controller with more buttons.  Nintendo can take a page out of Kirby Air Ride's book if they insist the game be simple.  And all Nintendo has to do is attract non gamers, then they'll become gamers again... MWA HA HA HA HA

[KnowsNothing]

Shield + A is the only way you should be grabbing in Melee, the Z button is far slower and I find it much harder to pull off.  With Shield + A you can just dash at someone and grab them before they know what hit them.

[wandering]

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I meant how do you, personally, grab in Melee, with you not using Z and all. And don't forget the N64 controller had more buttons and less moves.

Oh, yeah, I grab with the shield.
Though sometimes I'll use z, just for the heck of it, but obviously that doesn't work quite as well because of how I hold the controller.

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It isn't just backwards compatibility though as non exclusive Revolution titles will be using the "traditional" set-up.

I doubt this highly, but we'll see.

I suppose we differ somewhat on what we want out of this system. You, and a lot of other people, want non-gamers to be appeased in some fashion, but want the focus to be on traditional gamers. Whereas I think I'm on the same page as Nintendo- I want the focus to be on non-gamers, with appeasements made to traditional gamers. I know too many people who aren't into gaming, and I want them to be. I want this system to be as mainstream as possible.... and, imo, in order for that to happen the remote absolutely cannot be cluttered with more buttons, and absolutely can't have a traditional button layout. The cube had a large a button, the cube had kirby's air ride, the cube lost. The rev, on the other hand, is offering a mouse-like set-up: that requires, not carefully coordinated thumb movements, but broad wrist strokes and buttons that are assigned to individual fingers rather than locations under a single thumb. It's a brilliant design that surprisingly doesn't do away with much functionality, and messing with it could be absolutely disastrous.

[Mario]

I use Shield + A to grab too. I didn't even know Z did anything for ages after I got it, but I still find Shield + A works much better anyway

[odifiend]

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Originally posted by: KnowsNothing
Shield + A is the only way you should be grabbing in Melee, the Z button is far slower and I find it much harder to pull off.  With Shield + A you can just dash at someone and grab them before they know what hit them.

Uh-huh... You find it much slower and much harder to pull off.  You can definitely dash and grab with z as well...

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Originally posted by: wandering
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It isn't just backwards compatibility though as non exclusive Revolution titles will be using the "traditional" set-up.
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I doubt this highly, but we'll see.

It seems to me it would go without saying that a ported game would use traditional design, since the other consoles which carry that game have no other alternative.

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Originally posted by: wandering
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I know too many people who aren't into gaming, and I want them to be. I want this system to be as mainstream as possible.... imo, in order for that to happen the remote absolutely cannot be cluttered with more buttons, and absolutely can't have a traditional button layout. The cube had a large a button, the cube had kirby's air ride, the cube lost. The rev, on the other hand, is offering a mouse-like set-up: that requires, not carefully coordinated thumb movements, but broad wrist strokes and buttons that are assigned to individual fingers rather than locations under a single thumb. It's a brilliant design that surprisingly doesn't do away with much functionality, and messing with it could be absolutely disastrous.

The DS's success with Nintendogs would suggest you're incorrect.  Again, nongamers will be attracted by the movement.  Just because Kirby's Air Ride was simple doesn't mean nongamers will instantly flock to it (not that it was advertised).  But as the DS has proved just because there are more buttons, doesn't mean nongamers will turn away.
It must do away with functionality if several games need an expansion to be played...
Edit: missed a

[KnowsNothing]

Uh, yeah, I find it easier to use Shield + A, was there any confusion?  I was responding to this:

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Re: 3) How do you grab in Smash bros? And don't give me any of that shield + attack garbage

I don't think it's garbage, is that hard to understand?  I don't have to use my middle finger for playing SSBM, there you go.

[odifiend]

You misquoted me since you missed the smiley face which set the mood of my statement.

and I was responding to this Shield + A is the "only way you should be grabbing in Melee".  And if you want to get technical since there are so many duplicate functions in melee, you could still use z to throw without using your middle finger, since L is also shield.

[KnowsNothing]

Fine

[KDR_11k]

Meh, I don't know anyone who plays at a level where throws start to make sense.