Topic: NWR Game Club #2: Metroid: Other M

[Chocobo_Rider]

@GoldenPhoenix

+1 ... hundred.

@Lithium

Don't forget, dialogue and story are two separate things.  I hated the dialogue but loved the story.  You make a good point about some people not being able to overlook the bad to enjoy the good, though.  It certainly is a skill that varies not only person to person, but game to game. 

I am not immune to this.  I loved Conduit 1 but HATED Conduit 2.  Why? The game was better in nearly every way.  Except, they made Michael Ford (almost literally) into Duke Nukem.  I couldn't get past it.

[GoldenPhoenix]

@GoldenPhoenix

+1 ... hundred.

@Lithium

Don't forget, dialogue and story are two separate things.  I hated the dialogue but loved the story.  You make a good point about some people not being able to overlook the bad to enjoy the good, though.  It certainly is a skill that varies not only person to person, but game to game. 

I am not immune to this.  I loved Conduit 1 but HATED Conduit 2.  Why? The game was better in nearly every way.  Except, they made Michael Ford (almost literally) into Duke Nukem.  I couldn't get past it.

I seen the story as more of a work in progress with Metroid Other M. Nintendo has never really attempted something quite as detailed as the story in Other M, complete with a ton of cutscenes, and dialogue. It was a refreshing step for them, even if one could argue that they shouldn't have done it with the Metroid series, and that is fair (though I would like to see it furthered in some capacity within the series, giving more balance to who Samus is). Besides video game stories are not really known for being amazing works of art, and compared to many games out there, the story was A+++ material (which I admit is pretty sad, but that says more about the lack of storytelling skills in the industry then anything)! I think most of the negativity around it is more over people's perceptions of who Samus should and shouldn't be based on their own interpretations from the limited characterization of her in previous games, more so then the story itself, that aspect alone seems to have created the most hostility.

[broodwars]

I think most of the negativity around it is more over people's perceptions of who Samus should and shouldn't be based on their own interpretations from the limited characterization of her in previous games, more so then the story itself, that aspect alone seems to have created the most hostility.

It's not an issue of "perception" or "interpretation" when Samus acts completely contrary to the character established in previous games.  You want to argue that in the NES and Super NES Metroids that Samus was merely an avatar for the player because modern storytelling conventions weren't common back then?  Fine, but it doesn't explain how the Samus in Other M is completely different from the one shown in the Metroid Prime games, which were created with full cutscenes (albeit largely unvoiced).  But just like how Sakamoto almost seems to go out of his way to not reference the Western-made and more financially/critically successful Prime games, he likewise also probably didn't want to acknowledge the Samus character solidified by Western developers.

Both Fusion and Zero Mission also IIRC had internal monologue cutscenes and some dialogue, and Samus wasn't anywhere near as whiny and emotionally unstable as she was in Other M.  I don't remember reading posts and articles around the release of any of those games from people saying that "that's not Samus", yet that was commonly the case with Other M.  Other M's Samus is just very incongruous from her previous depictions, especially when it comes to her dealings with Ridley (which I've extensively detailed in my previous posts on this matter).  In fact, the only other Metroid product that apparently has a similar Samus was a Japan-only manga, to which I say "if it's not consistent with the other games, it's not canon."

[Chozo Ghost]

Putting Samus' personality aside for a moment, wasn't it also established in her official biography that she is like 6'3" tall? So if that's the case, why is it that in nearly every cutscene in Other M everybody seems to tower over her? It seems to me either all the other characters in the game are like 7ft tall, or Sakamoto cut her height down to a more average level. Which is it?

[Ian Sane]

It's kind of weird, but one of the reasons I always appreciated Nintendo as a developer was because their control schemes were always so honed and refined. Between Metroid: Other M, Donkey Kong Country Returns (shake to roll? What the hell is wrong with the classic controller?) and Kid Icarus: Uprising, Nintendo has made some serious mistakes in recent years.

My beef with Nintendo this gen in a nutshell.  The issue stems from a desire to "prove" something that isn't true.  Motion controls aren't the be-all-end-all so not permitting the classic controller to be used in DKC Returns comes across as a deliberate attempt to "prove" their superiority by not providing the comparison.  There's a childish stubborness to it, like having classic controls would make motion controls look bad and thus make Nintendo look like fools for pushing it so hard.  Sakamoto did the same thing with Other M.  If he allowed the option to use the nunchuk then it would suggest his idea of just using the remote isn't necessarily a good idea.  Better to force everyone to use inferior controls than to admit to being wrong or that his original idea didn't work well when they tried it.  Sacrifice the game's quality to "prove" a failed point.
 
Chozo hit it on the head regarding the game bossing you around constantly.  If I want someone constantly telling me what to do, um, I have my job for that as well as the government.  In my leisure time I don't want to play something that simulates being under someone else's thumb.  While we're at it, let's make a game about doing chores and feeling sick and waiting in line and getting kicked in the balls.  All of life's annoying bullshit, carefully recreated in videogame form.

[TrueNerd]

Besides video game stories are not really known for being amazing works of art, and compared to many games out there, the story was A+++ material (which I admit is pretty sad, but that says more about the lack of storytelling skills in the industry then anything)!

Maybe the actual story itself in Other M is fine. Who knows. I can't tell because the actual storyTELLING is unbearable. The laziest, least cinematic way to tell stories in any visual medium is through straightforward narration. Another terrible storytelling technique is overt, on the nose dialog. Main characters should also not be confined to a narrow emotional range for very long. Other M has ALL of these things.

Does the game deserve a pass because this is Nintendo's first attempt at something like this? I mean it's understandable, but no, it doesn't. The best thing to come out of this generation is the improved storytelling in video games. Games like Bioshock, Red Dead Redemption, GTAIV, Mass Effect, Uncharted, Portal, Ghost Trick, etc. have all raised the bar considerably in this area. Really, I'm beyond fine with Nintendo not including narrative in their games at all or doing so minimally, but if you're gonna have a lot of story in a game these days, you better know how to do it right.

[Chocobo_Rider]

@GoldenPhoenix

+another hundred

@broodwars

You're discrediting a lot for being inconsistent with something it could not possibly be consistent with.  That's not the basis for a good argument.  Other M, parts of Fusion and the Manga had attempts at deep plot.  The other games did not.  You can't fault one for not being consistent with the other.

Btw, I'm glad you mentioned Fusion.  A game that probably WOULD have gotten similar treatment if the dialogue had been given voice.  Here are some examples people might not be familiar with ... everyone, try reading them with Samus' voice actress in your head ... (spoilers below... obviously)

Samus: That computer reminds me of a gruff Federation CO I served under named Adam Malkovich. He called me "Lady" on missions; from anyone else, it would've sounded sarcastic, but Adam made it sound dignified. Out of respect and with some irony, I named the computer after him.

Samus: As I listened to the briefing, my thoughts turned to Adam. The real Adam understood me well. He would end orders by saying, "Any objections, Lady?" He knew I wouldn't disagree. That was just his way of noting our trust. I wonder if I can trust this computer, too...

Samus: The real Adam would have said the same thing about that incident, but he would have softened the blow. He was relentless in his criticism, but he always cared... He was not a machine obsessed with duty. No such compassion could exist in that computer...

SC: And what would this...friend advise you to do now?

 Samus: He would know that the only way to end this is to start the self-destruct cycle. He'd know how important it is...

 SC: Did this "Adam" care for you? Would he sit in a safe Command Room and order you to die?

 Samus: He would understand that some must live and some must die... He knew what it meant. He made that sacrifice once.

 SC: So, he chose life for you? Our fair warrior, Samus Aran... Your Adam gave his life so that you might keep yours... For the sake of the universe...

Adam: Then return to your ship and escape. Move quickly, and stay alive. That's an order! Any objections, Lady?

Samus: That perfect military mind... The wisdom of Adam Malkovich continued to serve even after death. Until today, I had no idea that the minds of leaders and scientists were frequently uploaded to computers. My incredible reunion with Adam may have saved the universe...
 
 But how will the beings of the universe view our resolve? I doubt they will understand what we did... the danger we barely averted. They will hold tribunals and investigations. They will hold us responsible. Adam understood this, and he spoke to me in my anger...
 
 "Do not worry. One of them will understand. One of them must."
 
 I've reflected upon his words, and I see the wisdom in them. We are all bound by our experiences. They are the limits of our consciousness.
 
 But in the end, the human soul will ever reach for the truth... This is what Adam taught me.

A lot of that sounds like it's plucked right from Other M, don't it?

[GoldenPhoenix]

I think most of the negativity around it is more over people's perceptions of who Samus should and shouldn't be based on their own interpretations from the limited characterization of her in previous games, more so then the story itself, that aspect alone seems to have created the most hostility.

It's not an issue of "perception" or "interpretation" when Samus acts completely contrary to the character established in previous games.  You want to argue that in the NES and Super NES Metroids that Samus was merely an avatar for the player because modern storytelling conventions weren't common back then?  Fine, but it doesn't explain how the Samus in Other M is completely different from the one shown in the Metroid Prime games, which were created with full cutscenes (albeit largely unvoiced).  But just like how Sakamoto almost seems to go out of his way to not reference the Western-made and more financially/critically successful Prime games, he likewise also probably didn't want to acknowledge the Samus character solidified by Western developers.

Both Fusion and Zero Mission also IIRC had internal monologue cutscenes and some dialogue, and Samus wasn't anywhere near as whiny and emotionally unstable as she was in Other M.  I don't remember reading posts and articles around the release of any of those games from people saying that "that's not Samus", yet that was commonly the case with Other M.  Other M's Samus is just very incongruous from her previous depictions, especially when it comes to her dealings with Ridley (which I've extensively detailed in my previous posts on this matter).  In fact, the only other Metroid product that apparently has a similar Samus was a Japan-only manga, to which I say "if it's not consistent with the other games, it's not canon."

Samus had little to no personality in the Prime games, they largely referenced the Avatar esque take on her. Other M was really the first game to truly delve into her complexities as a character, and I APPRECIATE that. I've always viewed Other M as a retcon/reimagining of the series, including Samus, to push it beyond the avatar portrayal of Samus.

And of course no one complained about Samus in the Prime games, they hardly even dealt with her character at all. They are fantastic games, but hardly attempted to make her a complex, real, character, in fact they primarily took the easy way out and didn't really touch on who she is at all. Fusion and Other M have been the first real attempts to flesh out, and yes, in some ways, retcon/reimagine Samus as a real character, not a cliche masculinized bounty hunter.

Besides, whether one likes it or not, I get the feeling Sakamoto would not consider the Prime games canon, and frankly he likely has the most control (besides Nintendo themselves) over what is and isn't. I'd argue that the Samus in Fusion, personality wise, is contradictory to the Prime depiction of her. And with Ridley, if the Prime games aren't considered Canon, she would have destroyed Ridley only twice previously. To see him come back a third time would have to be emotionally jarring to say the least. We also have to keep in mind that Sakamoto based her character off of Ripley of the Alien series, and she too experienced post-traumatic stress disorder when she re encountered the alien species again and had to overcome that trauma (like Samus did in Other M).


Anyway, this discussion will keep going around and around, so I'm stepping out of the discussion. I'll just end by saying I am glad Nintendo is giving Samus a personality, and making her more then the typical emotionless hero found in other games. If it contradicts the Prime games, then so be it, because I don't believe they even really tried to make her an emotionally complex character. I want to see the series evolve beyond being all alone and without emotion. If it takes some retconning or eliminating some games from the series canon, then so be it.


I enjoyed Other M, and found it to be a promising new step for the series, even if it has some major flaws in its storytelling, including how Samus was depicted (I do NOT think her characterization was perfect by any means, but I found it much better in this then any other game in the series which felt awfully generic and cliche).

[GoldenPhoenix]

Besides video game stories are not really known for being amazing works of art, and compared to many games out there, the story was A+++ material (which I admit is pretty sad, but that says more about the lack of storytelling skills in the industry then anything)!

Maybe the actual story itself in Other M is fine. Who knows. I can't tell because the actual storyTELLING is unbearable. The laziest, least cinematic way to tell stories in any visual medium is through straightforward narration. Another terrible storytelling technique is overt, on the nose dialog. Main characters should also not be confined to a narrow emotional range for very long. Other M has ALL of these things.

Does the game deserve a pass because this is Nintendo's first attempt at something like this? I mean it's understandable, but no, it doesn't. The best thing to come out of this generation is the improved storytelling in video games. Games like Bioshock, Red Dead Redemption, GTAIV, Mass Effect, Uncharted, Portal, Ghost Trick, etc. have all raised the bar considerably in this area. Really, I'm beyond fine with Nintendo not including narrative in their games at all or doing so minimally, but if you're gonna have a lot of story in a game these days, you better know how to do it right.

I don't believe I said they deserve a pass, but I want them to continue to learn from it and improve upon it instead of abandoning it because it was flawed.

[Lithium]

I think Extra Credits' episode on other M would be very relevant to this thread, it's basically about what we can learn about how Other M was handled.

[Chozo Ghost]

Other M was really the first game to truly delve into her complexities as a character, and I APPRECIATE that. I've always viewed Other M as a retcon/reimagining of the series, including Samus, to push it beyond the avatar portrayal of Samus.

The problem is the Aura of mystery surrounding Samus is now completely gone. You can no longer wonder or imagine. Its now in your face, and if you don't like it there's nothing you can do about it.

Someone compared it earlier in the thread to the Star Wars prequels. Before 1999 a Star Wars fan had a lot of room to use their imagination of the events which happened before A New Hope, but now they can't. There used to be this magical mysterious thing known as the "Force" and I was always fascinated by that and wondered how that worked, but then in 1999 A Phantom Menace came out and it was explained it was just some microscopic bacteria called Midi Chlorians. I was like "....oh. ok." and from that moment forward the whole appeal and wonder and magic I felt over the whole thing just instantly evaporated. When it was left open to interpretation I loved it, but then having it explained I was severely disappointed.

That's my feelings regarding the Samus character as well. When she was just an "avatar of the player" she was open to a lot of interpretation. We didn't know much about her past or her personality, but now thanks to Other M we know more than I would like to have known. My reaction again was "oh.... ok." and my heart sank, and from that day forward I no longer view Samus the same way as I have since I first played Metroid as a little kid. I got an idea way back then of how Samus was and I loved her, but now I see Sakamoto's vision and I was severely disappointed... I felt like a balloon that had been popped.

[Adrock]

I liked Other M for the most part. It's hardly the best Metroid game but as a whole, it's a good game. Despite the handholding, the gameplay was fun. Aside from story and characterization, Nintendo got 90% of everything else right. The problem is that all of the flaws stack up and become super noticeable.

I suppose my problem with the characterization of Samus in Other M is that she's not only is she pretty unbelievable as a woman, but she's completely unbelievable as a heroine. What kind hero does the kinds of things she does in the cutscenes? Her flaws don't make her relatable because they don't make sense in Other M's place in the series.

Still, I appreciate that Nintendo attempted to expand upon and humanize Samus because honestly, she was only female in that the series established that she has lady parts. That was it. Nothing about Samus being female changed anything about the series. The player just took control of a hot blond chick under layers of armor. To that effect, Samus was an almost blank canvas. However, Sakamoto's writing sucks. He doesn't know how to use metaphors effectively and despite the fact that he penned Metroid Fusion, he still managed to write a conflicting interquel. How did that... I don't even... Worst of all, he gave Samus a bunch of stereotypical female traits and kept adding layer upon layer of it to the point where Samus was practically a parody of a woman. It came off to me that he doesn't know anything about women. Not that I'm an expert, but Samus' persona was so poorly handled that it was obvious that he was fudging it. I kept thinking while playing Other M, "You'd have to be mentally unstable to behave this way."

Moving forward, how does Nintendo reconcile this? Either they start over or they ignore Other M happened. Seriously, if you excise Other M from the mythos, you don't miss a beat. Fusion is a much better sequel to Super Metroid anyway. I think there's a good opportunity to make Samus interesting; Other M just didn't take advantage of it.

[Chozo Ghost]

I wouldn't mind a sequel to Other M, as long as you play as Higgs, whom I felt was the true hero of the first game. As for Samus, after that whole debacle I think the character is finished and should be swept into the waste basket and forgotten. That doesn't mean the Metroid franchise itself can't live on, though... but let the new hero be Higgs.

[Adrock]

Hmm... no... I respectfully disagree. I still love Samus.

[Ian Sane]

One of Sakamoto's goofs is wanting to de-emphasize the Metroid Prime games and potentially remove them from canon.  The problem is that this isn't like the Superman movie series retconning out sequels that no one liked.  Metroid Prime was well received.  Sakamoto is crapping on a game that is a contender for best game on the Gamecube and best game of its generation.  If he is assuming that Metroid fans don't like the Metroid Prime games and want to ignore them he's out-to-lunch.

Retro brought Metroid into 3D and surpassed anyone's expectations.  They succeeded like EAD succeeded with Super Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time and maintained Nintendo's reputation of a spotless record in bringing their old 2D franchises into 3D.  Sakamoto is presenting Other M almost like it's 3D Metroid "done right".  Except that that already happened.  Sakamoto set out to fix a problem that didn't exist.  It's more like HE just doesn't like Metroid Prime so he's going to set things the way he wants and ironically he did a worse job and pretty much sunk his entire reputation in one clean sweep.

And it was so unnecessary because it isn't like the Metroid franchise was stolen from him.  Metroid Prime was the spin-off.  Metroid Fusion was the continuation of the "main" series so he could have kept going with the 2D games without ever acknowledging Metroid Prime.  Does Miyamoto get all hissy fitty about Paper Mario and decide he's going to do Mario RPG the REAL way?  No, because he's not 12 years old and he's fine with sticking to the main Mario series.  Sakamoto's immature writing actually fits that of someone who would get all hissy fitty about another developer working on "his" series.  The sheer existence of Other M suggests the work of an immature individual and the embarassing execution just confirms it.

[Chozo Ghost]

Ian may be onto something... maybe Samus being so emotional in Other M is a reflection of Sakamoto and his own personality. Maybe Samus breaking down and crying in the game is based off Sakamoto's reaction to Retro taking "his" Metroid franchise, and then upstaging him by making a superior version. Maybe that really got to him so much that he did break down and cry in real life, and made him so desperate to take the series back and make it his own again.

Then you have the dictatorial Adam character telling Samus and everyone else what to do. Maybe Sakamoto identified with this Adam character. Maybe that's a window into his mindset while making this game and his feeling over Retro and what they did with "his" franchise.

[Lithium]

Ian may be onto something... maybe Samus being so emotional in Other M is a reflection of Sakamoto and his own personality. Maybe Samus breaking down and crying in the game is based off Sakamoto's reaction to Retro taking "his" Metroid franchise, and then upstaging him by making a superior version. Maybe that really got to him so much that he did break down and cry in real life, and made him so desperate to take the series back and make it his own again.

Then you have the dictatorial Adam character telling Samus and everyone else what to do. Maybe Sakamoto identified with this Adam character. Maybe that's a window into his mindset while making this game and his feeling over Retro and what they did with "his" franchise.

I can never tell if you're being serious or just like deadpan humour

[Chocobo_Rider]

No one wants to field this simple "yes" or "no" question?

A lot of that sounds like it's plucked right from Other M, don't it?

[AV]

I HATE THIS GAME. HATE IT.


I got it for FREE by winning a contest and I still HATED IT SO MUCH I TRADED IT IN, WITHOUT COMPLETION. ITS NOT EVEN WORTH MY TIME TO FINISH THIS TURD.
NO, NO NO. I don't care if it was FREE for me, NOT WORTH IT.
The controls are awful and story was terrible.


I love Metroid games, but this was easily the worst Metroid game.


Pixel hunting in First person = chore
first person elements are horrible compared to Prime Trilogy controls


I really hate this game.

[JRokujuushi]

From a gameplay perspective, I thought Other M was a step backward.  In the 2D games, you had a way to toggle missiles on and off.  In the Prime games, missiles had a dedicated button.  In Other M, you had to plant your feet and practically immobilize yourself to use missiles.  Yeah, you could shake the remote to dodge using Quicksense, but you still lost your freedom of movement.  Quicksense also took a lot of challenge out of battles.  Just rapidly tap the D-pad when in battle and Samus will usually jump out of the way of any attacks that come close.

It was also disappointing how items were practically stripped out of the game.  Energy tanks are always nice, but missile pickups only increase your maximum capacity by one now, and accel charges are just boring.  Samus already has everything else, it's just a matter of being told you can use it, and there aren't any fun optional items to seek out like the spring ball in Super Metroid. 

Speaking of being told you can use your items, Adam is an idiot.  Having been in the military, I can understand not authorizing Samus' more powerful weapons due to rules of engagement, use of necessary force, etc., but there is no reason why that would result in her disabling her protective equipment.  Not to mention the sheer idiocy of shooting a teammate in the back, completely disabling their protective gear as a metroid hovers overhead, then proceeding to shoot the metroid with a weapon that it is supposedly immune to due to genetic manipulation.  And this is the "perfect military mind" she refers to in Fusion?  The fact that he seems so incompetent in Other M makes Samus look bad for having such a strong infatuation with him.

You also don't get the satisfaction of taking out a number of key targets.  The Deleter, found dead.  Ridley, sucked dry by metroids.  MB, frozen by Madeline, then shot and killed by the other military unit that showed up.  Having the game complete your objectives for you should be done through Super Guides or cheat codes because you suck, not because it's an integral part of the game.

[lolmonade]

Found the game for $5.  My interest has been piqued with all the arguing back-and-forth in this thread to invest the time to play it.  This'll be interesting, especially since it's my first Metroid game.

[Adrock]

Found the game for $5.  My interest has been piqued with all the arguing back-and-forth in this thread to invest the time to play it.  This'll be interesting, especially since it's my first Metroid game.

That might actually be beneficial to you. Then, you can move on to the better ones, namely Super Metroid and Metroid Prime... unless Other M scars you so much that you don't want to.

[Evan_B]

I must say, I've never actually played this game, and I feel bad about it. As a lover of Metroid, the negative response to the story and characters really pushed me away from getting it- even though it was released on my birthday. The silly story choice of "permission" seemed ludicrous, but I still have always wanted to see how the game played and wanted to experience it for myself. Maybe the discussion over the month can sway me.

[JRokujuushi]

You can get it new at GameStop for $10.  If nothing else, that's a decent price for some Club Nintendo coins.

[Chocobo_Rider]

The silly story choice of "permission" seemed ludicrous

Agreed.  But is it any more ludicrous than an alien planet being full of compatible missile and energy upgrades?

Or starting every mission with only the base equipment?

In other words, there are some choices that merely reflect that this is still a video game.... and that's not such a bad thing!