Author Topic: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making  (Read 7623 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MegaByte

  • NWR Staff... Can't win trivia
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: 31337
    • View Profile
    • Konfiskated Teknologies Network
« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 06:28:13 PM by MegaByte »
Aaron Kaluszka
Contributing Editor, Nintendo World Report

Offline Stogi

  • The Stratos You Should All Try To Be Like
  • Score: 18
    • View Profile
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2011, 05:56:53 PM »
Wow...

That's...

That's just wrong...

I gotta a feeling Geohotz case with Sony might set a precedent that would abolish the foundation for those ideas. All the more reason to support his cause.
black fairy tales are better at sports

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2011, 06:23:35 PM »
I know we can't talk politics here and what I'm about to say more or less is political but it's relevant to the link Aaron posted.

What bothers me the most about the contents of that link is that it essentially implies a global government.  How can I have a democracy where I elect the government of my country when the government of another country, which I have no representation in, can call the shots?

I problem with IP is that it isn't really a limited resource anymore.  It just isn't, which can suck for a creative person wanting to make a living off of his creative works, but that is just how things are.  If we could copy any natural resource from nothing, like we can essentially do with IP, it would just destory the concept of selling goods.  It's a losing battle.  At the core of it capitalism is very much a deal to distribute resources.  Not everyone has access to everything so we buy that which we cannot obtain on our own.  I don't think "boy that grocer is screwing me by controlling the food supply" I think "good thing I can buy this since I don't have the time grow my own food."  Once something is plentiful there is no real reason to buy it from an instinctive survival mentality.  I would never pay for apples when I've got my own apple tree pumping out more apples than I could eat.  Better to save my money for something else.

This is where we're at with IP.  I don't HAVE to pay for it to get it so the only real reason to do so is to either be nice or to grasp the concept that new IP often needs money and if no one buys it, it just isn't going to get made at all.  But the average person isn't so smart to think of that longterm effect.  They're thinking "hey I can get this for free" and the idea of videogames becoming an amateur's pursuit (ie: rich people only) because there is no way to make a living with it doesn't cross their minds.

But it is inevitable and the problem is that greed is a powerful motivator.  The guy selling the apples isn't necessarily happy to find out that I have my own apple tree and don't need to buy his product.  The mutual exchange of goods that is the core of capitalism doesn't favour his greed so he needs to protect the favourable circumstance he has.  Thus we're constantly under the threat of oppressive legislation to force an artificial scarcity so that those who no longer have a limited resource can continue to profit from it.

Of course there are little people involved too.  Every movie, TV show, music album, or videogame has a big team of people involved and a lot of them aren't rich.  Their livelyhood is disappearing as well.  In that situation they would want to fight back out of mere survival just like any person can get angry about getting laid off because their job is no longer a limited resource they can "sell".  The way it all works is that everyone contributes something and in return gets something else.  If you don't contribute anything, you just don't fit in.

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2011, 08:16:14 PM »
I don't get the problem. States and countries are free to ban whatever they want. Just because something is legal in on place doesn't mean others have a right to buy it. For example, brass knuckles are illegal in New York. They are legal in other states, but legally companies can not ship them to places in New York. It would be disappointing if this news story is true, but that won't make me support Hotz or other hackers.
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline NWR_insanolord

  • Rocket Fuel Malt Liquor....DAMN!
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: -18986
    • View Profile
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2011, 08:58:07 PM »
The government should not be free to do this. There is no legitimate reason to ban the import of these kinds of things. You could make a case against it as a First Amendment violation.

The DMCA is already slanted too much against consumers, and this would take it way further. This can't be allowed to happen.
Insanolord is a terrible moderator.

J.P. Corbran
NWR Community Manager and Soccer Correspondent

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2011, 09:31:10 PM »
How is it a 1st amendment violation? The government is not taking away your right to free speech with it, your right to peacefully assemble, your right to practice or not practice religion, or the press. You could attempt to argue the first amendment, but you would fail because there is nothing in it related to this situation. The DMCA is a good law, it protects the people who actually put in the effort to create stuff.
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline NWR_insanolord

  • Rocket Fuel Malt Liquor....DAMN!
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: -18986
    • View Profile
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2011, 09:40:05 PM »
The government would be censoring expression by banning people from seeing and hearing information from outside the country. Games have been upheld by the court system as being protected by the First Amendment, which means the government can't ban or censor them.

And the DMCA is not a good law. It's a law with a good ideal behind it, but shitty execution.
Insanolord is a terrible moderator.

J.P. Corbran
NWR Community Manager and Soccer Correspondent

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2011, 10:02:53 PM »
The government would be censoring expression by banning people from seeing and hearing information from outside the country. Games have been upheld by the court system as being protected by the First Amendment, which means the government can't ban or censor them.

And the DMCA is not a good law. It's a law with a good ideal behind it, but shitty execution.

Importing is not a form of expression. The government would not be censoring or banning the games (a publisher could still publish the game if they want to). Please show me how this would be unconstitutional, because so far your arguments have been wrong.

I also don't see why you think the DMCA has been bad, unless you have done something banned by it (like pirating music or games).
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline NWR_insanolord

  • Rocket Fuel Malt Liquor....DAMN!
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: -18986
    • View Profile
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2011, 10:16:59 PM »
Okay, that's it. I'm not arguing with TJ Spyke anymore. There's only so long you can beat your head against a brick wall before you say "no more."
Insanolord is a terrible moderator.

J.P. Corbran
NWR Community Manager and Soccer Correspondent

Offline ShyGuy

  • Fight Me!
  • *
  • Score: -9660
    • View Profile
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2011, 10:22:32 PM »
Okay, that's it. I'm not arguing with TJ Spyke anymore. There's only so long you can beat your head against a brick wall before you say "no more."


Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2011, 10:26:24 PM »
insanolord, if you can come up with legit arguments then I would be happy to listen. You tried to say a law against importing would be unconstitutional, and I showed why it wouldn't.
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline King of Twitch

  • twitch.tv/zapr2k i live for this
  • Score: 141
    • View Profile
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2011, 11:12:47 PM »
Isn't it the President's job to make treaties, and the Senate's job to ratify?
"I deem his stream to be supreme and highly esteem his Fortnite team!" - The Doritos Pope and his Mountain Dew Crew.

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2011, 12:46:05 AM »
TJ, you are absolutely ridiculous. In fact, I don't even think you believe any of the stuff that you say. You absolutely *HAVE* to be trolling us all, just to get a reaction.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline MaryJane

  • Ain't got nothing on Felica Hardy
  • Score: -13
    • View Profile
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2011, 11:38:00 AM »
Gotta say that I agree with TJ, even though I disagree with the law in itself.

The government has every right to regulate imports. Unfortunately, I think this time they are using that right to help big business and not every day people. I think there needs to be a separation of corporation and state, just like there is a separation of church and state.

@Ian
It's not a global government, but a global economy, and a global economy really helps protect intellectual property. If you make something in Canada, it will be illegal for people in Russia, China, India, and other countries to steal your creation. Governments with similar interest working together and instituting cooperating laws is more effective than one country trying to force their opinions on others. Each country makes some concessions and everyone benefits. Of course that's the perfect model, and mistaks can be made, but I don't want to get political; I think it's much more about economics.
Silly monkeys; give them thumbs they make a club and beat their brother down. How they survive so misguided is a mystery. Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an a eye to heaven conscious of his fleeting time here.

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2011, 02:11:49 PM »
If it's a global economy, then you should be free to support the economy of any part of the globe, and have the freedom to import whatever you want.

I rest on your face.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline TJ Spyke

  • Ass
  • Score: -1350
    • View Profile
    • Spyke Shop
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2011, 02:49:48 PM »
If it's a global economy, then you should be free to support the economy of any part of the globe, and have the freedom to import whatever you want.

I rest on your face.

Except that is not true even in the same country. Something can be legal in one part and illegal in another (as I pointed out earlier in this thread). Just because something is allowed somewhere else does not guarantee you the right to it where you live. You can still support the economy there, you just won't have the right to import it.
Help out a poor college student, buy video games and Blu-ray Discs at: http://astore.amazon.com/spyke-20

Offline MaryJane

  • Ain't got nothing on Felica Hardy
  • Score: -13
    • View Profile
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2011, 03:02:40 PM »
You rest on my face? We don't even know each other ;).

And the global economy is a regulated one, just like every other economy on the globe.
Silly monkeys; give them thumbs they make a club and beat their brother down. How they survive so misguided is a mystery. Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an a eye to heaven conscious of his fleeting time here.

Offline oohhboy

  • Forum Friend or Foe?
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2011, 03:19:14 PM »
For those only interested in some of the potential effects in America, this treaty would violate First sale doctrine.

For those who don't want to read the whole article.

Quote
The first-sale doctrine is a limitation on copyright that was recognized by the Supreme Court of the United States in 1908 (see Bobbs-Merrill Co. v. Straus) and subsequently codified in the Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 109. The doctrine allows the purchaser to transfer (i.e., sell, lend or give away) a particular lawfully made copy of the copyrighted work without permission once it has been obtained. This means that the copyright holder's rights to control the change of ownership of a particular copy ends once ownership of that copy has passed to someone else, as long as the copy itself is not an infringing copy. This doctrine is also referred to as the "right of first sale," "first sale rule," or "exhaustion rule."

Here is the potential aftermath from the removal of first sale from copyrighted goods.

Quote
In 2009, in Pearson Education, Inc. v. Ganghua Liu,[8] the District Court in the Southern District of New York ruled that the first sale copyright doctrine does not apply to products that are lawfully manufactured abroad and then imported and sold in the U.S without authority from the copyright holder. The court reached this conclusion reluctantly, saying that it found nothing in the copyright statute that limits the doctrine to copies manufactured in the U.S., but it relied upon dicta in the 1998 Supreme Court opinion in Quality King Distribs., Inc. v. L’anza Research Int’l, Inc. (discussed above) to reach its conclusion. That case is currently before the Second Circuit Court of Appeals, on petition for leave to appeal, a decision on which has been deferred pending a ruling in a similar case. The argument that § 109(a) does not apply to copies made abroad is often approached as a means for a copyright owner to seek to prevent the "gray market" importation of copyrighted goods made abroad without finding the first sale doctrine to be an obstacle, and thereby enabling the copyright owner to engage in geographic price discrimination without fear that copies it sells more cheaply abroad will find their way back into the United States and undermine the higher prices they seek to extract from U.S. consumers. While this theory has some appeal in economic circles, the implications of such an interpretation are much broader, as it would mean that any object (perfume, an automobile, a cell phone, a home appliance) bearing a copyrighted label or containing copyrighted computer code, where the label or code was made into a copy while outside of the United States, could not be lent, sold or given away without the permission of the owner of the copyright in that work[citation needed]. Given that modern technology allows literally thousands of discrete copyrighted works to embody the same tangible medium, just one copyright holder in a work that was reproduced onto the object, while outside of the United States, would effectively give the copyright owner power over the object[citation needed]. For example, if a new cell phone was made in China, where it was pre-loaded with a number of copyrighted computer programs, the owner of the copyright in each program could sue anyone who let someone else borrow their phone. Even where everything was initially made in the United States, if a student downloaded a "patch" or upgrade to a computer program while temporarily abroad would be committing copyright infringement by lending the computer to someone else upon returning to the United States

You all know the shooting war LG and Sony got themselves into? I bolded that part for a reason. This will kill trade as anything of significant value or use these days has copyright or patents. A patent troll on the lowest level demand to be paid for something without merit because they managed to slip something through the over worked and broken patent office.

Legal departments would explode in size as companies from the most mega to the smallest would be forced to gain approval from each and every copyright owner or else it can't be imported in fear that somebody with an obscure claim could ban a product.

Companies engaged in patent wars would find themselves in the trade equivalent of nuclear war where even the smallest guy could be packing a nuclear suit case.

For those who didn't read the original article.

Quote
It would require criminal enforcement for certain cases of circumventing DRM even when there's no copyright infringement, going beyond existing treaties even when there's no copyright infringement. There are some exceptions, but rather than allow countries to determine their own exceptions, it defines the exceptions and actually says countries cannot go beyond those.

If you have a freeloader disc, a switch at the back of your Gamecube that allows you to switch regions, ever use VLC or another program to watch a DVD from another region, transcoded a movie or episode for your ipod, you fall under this and are potentially a criminal.

Here is the original article that the opening post sources from. It is a lot more dry and the commentary is at the end. At the end there is a link to the original leak in PDF form. It's a lot of it is unreadable due to the brutal amount of complexity that is international legal language, but the summary is accurate. This is bad for anyone, companies and especially people who need to import generics to live due to cost.

Quote
Pharma-favored provisions included in many recent U.S. trade deals extend drug company monopolies and keep prices high. But price-lowering generic competition is essential to advancing global access to medicines. For example, over the past 10 years, generic competition has played a key role in reducing the costs of first-line HIV/AIDS medicines by 99 percent, enabling 5.2 million people worldwide to access lifesaving treatment.

New Zealand has manned up against this in a leak.

Quote
The leaked New Zealand paper states the parties “should be cautious about moving beyond TRIPS [Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights] standards under [the] TPP,” noting “there is a tendency towards overprotection of IP in all our societies, particularly in the areas of copyright and patents.” New Zealand proposes an alternative “TRIPS-aligned” structure, focusing on operational coherence and enforcement, and capacity building in developing countries.

I would vote for John Key if he came out and out by giving the middle finger to the US industrial lobby over this, even after that embarrassing capitulation clarification over the hobbits movie.

If this passes TJ, I hope you never, ever catch an illness that could be cured or controlled by generics because there will be no fucking way you are rich enough to live.
I'm Lacus. I'm fine as Lacus!
Pffh. Toilet paper? What do you think cats are for?

Offline BlackNMild2k1

  • Animal Crossing Hustler
  • Score: 409
    • View Profile
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2011, 03:26:39 PM »
Thanks you for breaking it down into laymans terms with examples that I can understand. [applaud]

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2011, 05:09:17 PM »
I get that something like brass knuckles can be illegal in one area and not in the other so you can't bring them in between.  But that makes some sense in regards to public safety.  This isn't anything like that.  This is just company X doesn't want you importing their product from this country or that country.  That doesn't exist to serve the public, it exists to serve the interests of individuals and private companies.

The thing is I get irritated enough about stuff like duty.  I've had times where I'm bringing something in from the States and *I* know it is technically not the same product available in Canada.  The guys at the border don't get or care about the subtle difference so they charge me.  Let's say for whatever reason some videogame was censored here in North America but was available without it in Europe.  I want to the "real" version but I can't import it because they say "nuh uh".  That sucks.  Typically if I'm going to trouble of importing it is because the product is not available in my country or not available in the format I would like.  Ignoring the law, I should be able to buy that if I want to.  To me that's just the freedom to decide what goods I buy and who I buy them from.

And I'm not talking about the situation where it is the is same product but the local price is so much higher that importing and paying for shipping is actually cheaper.  In those situations, which I never run into with videogames thankfully,  the pricing is largely artificial.  It isn't based on demand or what the public is willing to pay, it's based on laws that more or less fix the price.  It's like if I go across the street to buy the same bread at a lower price.  The guy who owns the store on my side of the street doesn't like it so he gets a big wall built up around the competing store to force me to go to his store and pay more.  That's not real competition, that's not a real market, that's just a rigged game designed to favour the store owner.

We're not talking about pirated stuff here.  We're talking about real products that don't have any real dangerous element to them, that we're being told we can't buy because it doesn't fit the business interests of certain companies.  That's ridiculous.

You can point out that it isn't unconstitutional (which is useless for me anyway since I'm not American) but that doesn't make it right.  Freedom and liberty is instinctive, not something that is granted by laws.

Offline SixthAngel

  • Score: 18
    • View Profile
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2011, 04:09:18 AM »
Tarrifs cause some of what you are talking about Ian.  They will be more expensive in your country and cheaper somewhere else in order to keep the manufacturing and jobs in your country.  I agree with you about the ridiculousness of the situation Megabyte talks about though.

IP and copyright laws only get worse and worse.  These were all originally made to encourage creativity by giving the original creators time to make money but they both stopped doing that a long time ago and now actually actively hurt creativity.

The combination of companies pouring money into the system and old judges who frankly don't even understand half of the internet stuff much less use it is a recipe for disaster. Sadly I don't see anyway to stop it.

Offline MegaByte

  • NWR Staff... Can't win trivia
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: 31337
    • View Profile
    • Konfiskated Teknologies Network
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2011, 02:11:51 AM »
Quote
The White House today proposed sweeping revisions to U.S. copyright law, including making "illegal streaming" of audio or video a federal felony and allowing FBI agents to wiretap suspected infringers.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-20043421-281.html
Aaron Kaluszka
Contributing Editor, Nintendo World Report

Offline ShyGuy

  • Fight Me!
  • *
  • Score: -9660
    • View Profile
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2011, 02:18:10 AM »
All I know is I'm against gun control.

Offline oohhboy

  • Forum Friend or Foe?
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2011, 03:52:57 AM »
So they want to fill the already full prisons that are currently loaded with drugies who need treatment, not jail time with the remaining population off the United states that has or will ever share an anime music video, downfall parodie, redubs, recuts, gameplay video, videos of cans of coke, anything copyrighted or looked at Hollywood funny.

This is 21th Century Probation. Instead of alcohol, it's information. Captain Picard is too tried and old for this ****.
I'm Lacus. I'm fine as Lacus!
Pffh. Toilet paper? What do you think cats are for?

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
Re: TPP: 'Son of ACTA' IP disaster in the making
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2011, 10:13:52 AM »
This country is turning into bullshit. That's not politics, it's an observation. I can see them getting mad at people that stream say HBO, or other subscription-only channels, but anything on basic cable or OTA should not be included, since when you stream content, you also stream the advertisements, which is all that the TV channels care about anyway.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA