Topic: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword

[broodwars]

I've been avoiding all the Skyward Sword videos since E3.  I remember overdosing on the Twilight Princess ones and it didn't end well when I actually played the game.  Besides, I know I'll end up watching probably every video review this game gets when it actually comes out.

[King of Twitch]

The tear collecting is crap but the upgrades sound cool. Ironically he says:

"The problem is that when you do something once in a game like Ocarina of Time, when you make the next game it becomes expected that all of that is there. You end up spending a lot of time creating all these elements of the game just to meet expectations."

but nobody thinks back to Ocarina and says, I hope there's stealth in the next Zelda. Yet here we are. Collect-a-thon-y, timed, stealth segments. The worst of all worlds.

[Caterkiller]

I remember people wanting some kind of stealth before WW was revealed, here in these very boards even. People don't know what they want.

All I know is the worlds are bright and cheery and the music fits it, that is half of my complaining right there. Was there anyone else that just did not like the majority of TP's music? It was to dreary and they looped too quickly, they never get a chance to take off!

[Ian Sane]

Why does Nintendo have such a hard-on for stealth?  They shove it in Zelda.  They shoved it into Metroid: Zero Mission.  Of course does Nintendo ever make a full-on stealth games like Metal Gear Solid or Splinter Cell?  Nope, they just shoehorn it into their existing franchises.  Wind Waker takes for-fucking-ever to get going because of the stupid stealth at the beginning and yet Nintendo keeps shoving that **** in our Zelda games.  WHO THE **** LIKES IT?  The whole thing sounds a lot like the annoying bullshit we all hated in Phantom Hourglass.  Why would Nintendo want to continue in that direction?

The more I find out about Skyward Sword the LESS interested I become.  Do you what the last game to do that for me was?  OTHER M!

I don't think people really want all the elements for the Ocarina of Time to be in every game since then.  Does it ever cross Nintendo's minds that there might be things people DON'T like about OoT but the game was otherwise so strong the flaws didn't hurt sales?  What a great game designer has to do is figure out what elements to keep and what not.  It also involves making a good guess at what fans really want.  Dumb fans who don't know how to properly express themselves will just give you a laundry list of everything they liked and ask for the exact same thing to appear again.  Those people are idiots.  Ignore them.  You have to sort through that list and think about what they REALLY want and why they're asking for it.  If you do exactly what they want you'll just get cookie-cutter sequels... which they'll bitch about.

[Stogi]

I think all Nintendo is trying to do is change the pace of the game.

Just like in FPS's, you aren't running around shooting everything in site all the time, Nintendo wants Link to take a break from time to time.

[Adrock]

Nintendo shouldn't be listening to fans and that's sounds counterproductive, but they didn't make their hits by listening to other people. They made those games by thinking about how to make games fun. No one knew what a side-scroller was until Nintendo made Super Mario Bros.

I actually like the stealth segments because it breaks up the game. However, I wish there were consequences for failing. In Ocarina of Time, you're sneaking into the Gerudo Fortress and when caught, Link, Hero of Fucking Time, just puts his hands up and gives up. Fortunately, they just throw you in a cell with ALL OF YOUR ****. Even if you ignore that from a plot perspective, how does that logically make sense? I'm not saying they strip you of your things and you have to get all 91 of them back, but fighting a special enemy or you have to fight your way out would make those segments more interesting.

[Caterkiller]

Ian did you hate sneaking around Gerudo Fortress? I always thought that was a great part of the OoT. Wasn't there something similar in MM only on a ship?

I remember when WW was in development Splinter Cell was all the rage. That's when I remember Miyamoto bringing up stealth directly in interviews. I do feel like it was more a knee jerk reaction than an actual good idea for the game. I did enjoy sneaking around inside the barrel during the beginning of WW but I do see it could have been better implemented.

This game does seem to have that crappy Spirit Tracks level of stealth but only this time in much wider areas, so at least it doesn't appear to be totally confined to little corridors. Just run away and grab the tears.


Finally the one thing I asked for since like LA! Zelda is now complete with big dingily jiggly nipple rings!

[broodwars]

The problem with invoking the Gerudo fortress section from Ocarina is that you were armed in that "stealth" section.  In fact, a major part of the gameplay in that section was using your bow to knock out the guards by shooting them with your bow, as well as duel specific guards with your sword.  The momentum of the game keeps moving.

Contrast that with the utter stupidity of the Wind Waker stealth section in the Forsaken Fortress.  You have no weapons, and you have to crawl around this relatively massive (for that point in the game) dungeon avoiding searchlights and sneaking around in barrels.  It's slow, it's tedious, it's pointless, and when you fail it it's back to the beginning for you.  That whole section just drags an already-dragging portion of the game down to an unbearable crawl of trial & error repetition.  Then Nintendo went and did that B.S. again in the Temple of the Ocean King in Phantom Hourglass, which they are seemingly replicating for Skyward Sword.

I hate this style of stealth in my games.  If you have to have stealth, why not follow the Arkham Asylum model?  In that game, you are a lethal shadow who preys on the fear of your targets.  You want your work to be discovered because it just makes it even more fun to mess with your prey as you close in for the kill.  But this?  Running around trying to avoid one-hit-kill monsters collecting tears just combines the tedium of the Twilight Realm sections from Twilight Princess with the hideous stealth sections of Phantom Hourglass/Wind Waker.  Based on the information we have, I don't see how anyone could find these sections fun, especially as you keep having to do them over the course of a fairly long game.

[noname2200]

Nintendo shouldn't be listening to fans and that's sounds counterproductive, but they didn't make their hits by listening to other people. They made those games by thinking about how to make games fun. No one knew what a side-scroller was until Nintendo made Super Mario Bros.

Plenty of people knew what a side-scroller was before Super Mario Bros. They were quite popular in arcades years before the NES was created. Moreover, the genre is really only a logical technical progression from the already-booming flip-scroller.

On a broader scale, I completely disagree with your thesis. There isn't a single company around that's successful by not listening to the customer base. You may argue, correctly, that they should ignore what's said by some of the more vocal-and-consistently-wrong segments of the market, but if you really think that Nintendo's hits sprung full-form from the mind of Miyamoto et al. well, I'm not sure how to respond.

On a more narrow scale, I also hate the stealth segments in Zelda games. They've all felt out of place, and I'd get rid of them entirely. Link's supposed to be the avatar of Courage, skilled in arms and undaunted by the odds. So why the heck does he just put up his hands and surrender to foes that I've beaten several times over by now?

[Adrock]

Jesus Christ, really? Yes, I literally meant no one in the entire universe knew what a side-scroller was before Super Mario Bros. Nintendo revolutionized entire genres by focusing on why people even play games: because people want to have fun. There were no Mario fans before Mario existed. There were no Zelda fans before Zelda existed. Nintendo didn't have fans to listen to because they weren't there.

I don't think Nintendo should listen to fans because they'll hear millions of different voices and they simply can't please everyone. Some things in previous games work, some do not. You and Ian don't like stealth in Zelda games while I and others do. Who should Nintendo listen to? I don't think there's a way to make that call. Nintendo shouldn't make games based on a million different standards. Someone is bound to feel disappointed. If Nintendo adhered to fans, we wouldn't have some of the best games they've made. For example, Metroid Prime. Most people hated the move to 1st person when it was announced yet it worked beautifully. I can't imagine the game any other way.

[Ian Sane]

Ian did you hate sneaking around Gerudo Fortress? I always thought that was a great part of the OoT. Wasn't there something similar in MM only on a ship?

I enjoyed it in OoT and thought it was a little less interesting to do that again in MM and was outright sick of it by WW.  In OoT it was this cool section they put in the game and I liked it as such.  But I didn't want it to become a Zelda staple.  I thought turning into different races in MM with the masks was cool as well but it isn't like Nintendo then put that into every Zelda game since then, which is a good thing.

Though as broodwars points out the Gerudo fortress lets you use your weapons.  I find I like having stealth as an option.  Even before it became a common element in games, if I could sneak up on enemies in a game, I often did as a strategy.  It's good game design to allow multiple ways to tackle a scenario.  Do I sneak up on the enemies or lure them one at a time or go in guns blazing?  Goldeneye let you do this for example and it was awesome.  Metal Gear usually lets you fight it out, though you'll often get your ass kicked.  Splinter Cell however pulls the plug constantly if you're spotted.  That's lame and frustrating.  Why can't I try to shoot my way out if I choose to?

That is not so bad in Zelda.  If stealth is an optional strategy at a point, that's cool.  I can sneak around OR go in and kick ass if I choose.  It's the "suddenly I'm playing Splinter Cell" bits that are annoying.

In regards to NEVER listening to fans, that's just stupid.  What if you introduce some element that everyone can't stand?  You keep that in every game afterwards and you risk turning your audience away.  You need to listen to some feedback.  You know what series ignored what everyone complained about and just kept going head on in the unpopular direction the developers wanted and has became a complete joke?  Sonic the Hedgehog.  Fuckin' Metroid will turn out the same way if Nintendo doens't listen to fan feedback about Other M.

[noname2200]

Jesus Christ, really? Yes, I literally meant no one in the entire universe knew what a side-scroller was before Super Mario Bros. Nintendo revolutionized entire genres by focusing on why people even play games: because people want to have fun. There were no Mario fans before Mario existed. There were no Zelda fans before Zelda existed. Nintendo didn't have fans to listen to because they weren't there.

I don't think Nintendo should listen to fans because they'll hear millions of different voices and they simply can't please everyone. Some things in previous games work, some do not. You and Ian don't like stealth in Zelda games while I and others do. Who should Nintendo listen to? I don't think there's a way to make that call. Nintendo shouldn't make games based on a million different standards. Someone is bound to feel disappointed. If Nintendo adhered to fans, we wouldn't have some of the best games they've made. For example, Metroid Prime. Most people hated the move to 1st person when it was announced yet it worked beautifully. I can't imagine the game any other way.

I interpreted your example of SMB to mean that "Nintendo shouldn't listen to fans because fans don't know how they can have fun, while Nintendo does. Look at SMB: they made the side-scroller fun because they didn't listen to people!"

My response was simply pointing out a historical reality: the side-scroller genre created SMB, not the other way around like you are asserting. Side scrollers were already popular in gaming circles, and their predecessor, the flash scroller, was immensely popular before that. It is no accident that Nintendo chose to take what had become their most popular character (Mario, from the smash-hit Donkey Kong arcade game, which was itself leveraged on previous titles and IPs...) and stick him in what was already a popular genre.

In other words, they listened to the fans.

The mistake here is in believing that "listening to the fans" only means "listening to what fans tell the company orally/ in writing." I believe your examples of how there were "no Mario fans before Mario existed" etc. support this idea. Instead, "listening to the fans" can and has also meant observing how fans react to things: is X idea popular? Do people generally seem to hate Y? Are people spending time and money on Z?

Few, if any, people directly asked Nintendo to create Nintendogs. Tens of millions of people told Nintendo that Nintendo should make Nintendogs when they rushed out and spent hordes of cash on Tomagatchis (sic) and other virtual pets. The same is true for Brain Age. And Wii Sports. And the original Zelda. And Mario. And Donkey Kong. I can't think of any big IP Nintendo has created that wasn't leveraged on something that was already popular elsewhere. They may refine it better, but they first have to listen and learn what is worth refining. That is what I meant to express.

As for how that relates to Zelda (i.e. the topic at hand, which I admit I somewhat strayed from!). You are correct in that Nintendo asking fans directly is not a wise idea, and for the very reason you mentioned. That's exactly what I meant when I said " that (Nintendo) should ignore what's said by some of the more vocal-and-consistently-wrong segments of the market." And yes, I admit that would include my internet posts.

What I am instead proposing is that Nintendo should stop and examine what it is that people play Zelda games for in the first place. I have a hard time believing that "stealth" has ever been one of them. At best, that segment seems to be superfluous filler: do you or anyone you know play Zelda for the stealth segments? Can you argue truthfully that those segments "fit" in with the rest of the game? Or do they represent a temporary and unnecessary sea change in the mechanics?

I argue that the stealth elements can be removed without decreasing most people's enjoyment of the game, while simultaneously increasing the enjoyment of others. In other words, few people will think it's a worse game without the stealth (and in fact they wouldn't even have noticed its absence), but many people will think it's a better game without it.

Let me head off the next post by admitting that I do not have any hard data to support this, and that I could be wrong. But I ask that you admit the same, or at least submit hard evidence that shows that I'm wrong (in which case I am willing to re-examine, and possibly concede, my position).

[Ceric]

On the whole stealth side of things as long as its optionalish then I'm fine with it.  What I hate is stealth you can't recover from when you slip up.  That is what really gets me.  Granted that it should be really intense to recover but if your skilled enough fully doable.

[Adrock]

Edit: this was a response to Ian's post. I'll have to respond to the others later

Sigh

As previously stated, some things work, some do not. The development team is most likely aware of or can identify many of these things without fan feedback. Sakamoto's team begged him to use the nunchuck and he refused. Other M suffered for it.

I don't think any development team shreds all feedback from fans but feedback that is positive or negative mostly reaffirms what they already know. The point about not listening to fans is because if you ask a million people what they did or did not like about a game, you get a million answers and there's no way to reconcile that. A developer's responsibility is to make a fun game. They make games for fans but they can't make every fan's game.

The problem with listening to fans is that most fans are not game developers and/or have no idea what they're talking about. A good idea on paper is not automatically a good idea in practice. Nintendo shouldn't ignore fans since they're paying the bills. Fan feedback is impossible to adhere to. Many attempts to placate fans result in a hodge podge of uninspired ideas. Twilight Princess isn't a bad game, but it's essentially Ocarina of Time 2. It lacks almost all of the charm and originality of the game it so desperately wants to be. Nintendo listened to fans so closely that they made a worse game. Not a bad game; just a worse one. Alternatively, Ocarina of Time isn't a classic because Nintendo listened to fans. It's a classic because they didn't and couldn't being that there was nothing to compare it too. Ocarina of Time isn't just Link to the Past 3D. Nintendo just made the best game they could make and delayed it until they felt they got it right and I'm glad they did because Ocarina of Time is fucking boss.

[Caterkiller]

I thought i'd try to play through TP again last night. Before I started I had the feeling of SS in my head even though I knew it wouldn't feel that way, but god it feels like such an aweful system that I never want to deal with again. Waggle at the time ok for me, I enjoyed it sometimes, but after playing SS link is super unresponsive and slow.

I realize how awesome the run button is now and now with Link able to run a few steps up walls and over enemies he just feels way more mobile. I just wish the animations were more fluid in zelda games. Mario does the zaniest things but the way he flips and moves around it looks so natural. Seems like anytime Link gets enveloped by a strong wind the way it carries him looks like crap. Enemies too, some look like they move as if they would in real life, then you have those black twilight things that are crawling on the ground but it looks like they're sliding all over the place.

[Stogi]

I just thought of something childish yet hilarious. Is it possible to make Link walk around with penis sword? And if so, how hilarious would it be if you thrust your hips to thrust the sword.

[Ian Sane]

I just thought of something childish yet hilarious. Is it possible to make Link walk around with penis sword? And if so, how hilarious would it be if you thrust your hips to thrust the sword.

Due to Nintendo's conservative nature they probably would not allow you to do that.  But then again, due to their conservative nature they might not think of something crude like that in the first place and thus not take action to prevent it.

[Mop it up]

Seriously either there is another thread where people are discussing this or everyone has just lost all hope in this game. Let's talk about it!

I'm already going to buy it so I'm not discussing it because I want to discover things as I play the game. Once it's released, I'll be back in here talking about what I find.

In fact, a major part of the gameplay in that section was using your bow to knock out the guards by shooting them with your bow

You monster! I always used the Hookshot since it seemed less painful...

[Kytim89]

The latest issue of Game Informer features a very cool image of Skyward Sword. It shows Link, Zelda and Ghirahim on the cover and shows off the game's art stlye very well. This is perhaps my favorite Game Informer cover, and issue, ever, and, most of all, it is one of a few times where Game Informer actually features a Nnitendo centric title. I am going to link an image of the cover and this issue also has a very nice dexcription of each game in the series follwed by some nifty pictures of Skyward Sword and an interview with Aonuma himself. This is highly recommended: http://www.zeldainformer.com/news/images/dashboard.jpg

[Drizzt]

I found a Skyward Sword easter egg in OOT 3D. In the Gerudo Valley roll into boxes that are against the wall in the room with the table with two pots on it and you'll find a Skyward Sword link poster.

[Caterkiller]

Awesome Drizzt, i'll be looking for it. I got that game day one and still havn't gone through the 2nd dungeon.

[Caterkiller]

2 new Zelda videos. It is actual gameplay but nothing we havnt seen before. Just the lava area with link walking on the ball. Also one attack from the fire boss.

Music is nice!

http://www.gameinformer.com/games/the_legend_of_zelda_skyward_sword/b/wii/archive/2011/09/22/exclusive-videos-the-fire-temple-and-its-boss.aspx


Impressions, verbal! Sounds good! But lots of mini cool spoilers, not story wise. But I suggest stay away Mop it up and the like. No more for me after this!


http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2011/09/23/discussing-skyward-sword-a-video-preview.aspx

[Killer_Man_Jaro]

Indeed. With Nintendo games, it's not the story spoilers that I'm wary of, but rather the gameplay spoilers. Through osmosis, I learned of all the new power-ups in Mario Galaxy 2 before it was released, and while that didn't make them any less cool when I finally got to play the game, I didn't get those cool 'Surprise!' moments. I don't think the old saying 'ignorance is bliss' holds much merit, but at the same time, I would like to go into some games without knowing everything about it beforehand.

[cubist]

Man, they should rename the thread to 'Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword - Anti-Hype.'  Seriously, every Zelda title has been excellent since 'A Link to the Past'.  Let's let Aonuma and his Zelda dev team surprise us.  Every trailer just seems to get better for me and I'm hoping this game really makes us regret this thread.

Majora's Mask and Wind Waker were both excellent.  Some of my friends in my offline gamer's circle think that Phantom Hourglass is the best one in recent years.  I'm hoping for one that's on par with Twilight Princess, which I thought was still brilliant despite popular NWR Forum opinion.

[Mop it up]

Indeed. With Nintendo games, it's not the story spoilers that I'm wary of, but rather the gameplay spoilers.

I'm the same way. Some of my best memories of Zelda involve things like receiving new items and figuring out the best way to use them, discovering little tricks on traveling and defeating enemies, and finding various secrets in the world. Zelda is best experienced without knowledge of what's ahead.

Of course, these days with the Internet and all, it's very difficult to go into a game without knowing anything about it. There are lots of things revealed before the game comes out, and once it's released, all of its secrets are posted on the Internet within days. I miss the days when I could go into a game with no knowledge whatsoever and be totally surprised by the events... but at the same time, without the vast information available on the Internet, it would be a lot harder to determine good from bad games. The Internet is a curse... and a blessing.