Topic: Super Mario Maker

[TOPHATANT123]

I'm OK with having elements unlock over time, whenever I'm faced with a editor or anything complicated really I appreciate it when I'm forced to get to grips with the basics before more options are added.

Constraints breed creativity do they not? The reason Mario is an Italian plumber instead of a generic Jump Man is because the hair and mouth were too difficult to make and the red overalls would contrast with the blue sky. The best example of this is the Wind Waker which has an incredible artstyle and really unique world design because of technological limitations.

For Mario Maker I think if everything was there day one the majority of levels made would be a random assortment of giant goombas, koopas, bowsers, wings and power stars. If you let the artist use all the colours you are going to end up with brown. By limiting it users have to learn to create interesting levels without all the crazy advanced tools, although you can probably just change the system clock if you wanted but where's the fun in that?

The thing that I am not a fan of are the custom sounds, I like how you can create music kinda like the note blocks in Minecraft, but as far as making sound effects I cannot think of one useful applicantion beyond having "U R ****!" shouted at the player whenever they fall into a pit. This is the kind of game you would want to play with children so I hope there are measures in place to turn off this feature, since I can't see how Nintendo would ever go about trying to police it. As far as I can tell just from the trailer there are no ways to make them apart from with the Wii U microphone, why not have a way to make chiptune sfx using notes like you can in animal crossing?

[broodwars]

So apparently Nintendo is applying their Splatoon strategy to Mario Maker & locking in-game assets & features behind a time-wall, according to their latest official Youtube trailer.

Because if there's one thing your game about boundless creativity needs, it's arbitrary restrictions on what you're allowed to use.

If your release schedule is thin you can create the illusion of notable stuff happening by releasing games in an unfinished state and then slowly release the rest of the content spread over a period of time.  It keeps the game "new" right until the next game is ready.  Damn, I hate when I put my mind into "evil corporate" mode.

As much as I'd love to rail at Nintendo for doing that like I did Splatoon, that doesn't seem to be what's going on here. The content this time is done. They're not even pretending it's not on the disc this time. They're just deciding you can't have it until an arbitrary period of time has passed since you first started playing it. I suspect if I bought this game a year from now, I'd still have to wait for all the unlocks to occur.

That's a very strange design decision.  I wonder if you can just move your console's clock ahead a few days and unlock everything at once.  Assuming you can't then the first user created levels made available to everyone will only use the first parts unlocked, so they'll be much lamer than they otherwise would be.  So Nintendo wants the first user created levels available to be lame simplistic levels that can't do much?  Huh?

Speaking of lame, simplistic levels, you can't recreate 1-1 until Day 6.

[azeke]

There will be levels available online and on-disc with full block set day 0.

Majority of people only want to PLAY levels, including those who are faking outrage about the game they didn't planned to buy on a console they don't own from a manufacturer they despise.

[broodwars]

There will be levels available online and on-disc with full block set day 0.

Majority of people only want to PLAY levels, including those who are faking outrage about the game they didn't planned to buy on a console they don't own from a manufacturer they despise.

Here's the problem, though: people can't MAKE good levels for you to PLAY until they have access to all the tools. I'm not a big fan of level creation, either, but I still want to play good levels.

[Soren]

There will be levels available online and on-disc with full block set day 0.

Majority of people only want to PLAY levels, including those who are faking outrage about the game they didn't planned to buy on a console they don't own from a manufacturer they despise.

Then make Super Mario Player. There's no reason a game called Super Mario Maker needs to have its full toolset locked away for a week and a half after purchasing. Regular Mario games don't make we wait a full day to play World 2 after I beat 1.

[Stratos]

Then make Super Mario Player. There's no reason a game called Super Mario Maker needs to have its full toolset locked away for a week and a half after purchasing. Regular Mario games don't make we wait a full day to play World 2 after I beat 1.

I LOVE this idea. Sell Maker for the full retail price, then sell a limited "player" edition for really cheap. Make the player work on both the 3DS AND the Wii U and you could end up netting a lot more sales and exposure.

[UncleBob]

And we wrap around back to the OP.

[Ian Sane]

There will be levels available online and on-disc with full block set day 0.

Majority of people only want to PLAY levels, including those who are faking outrage about the game they didn't planned to buy on a console they don't own from a manufacturer they despise.

Then make Super Mario Player. There's no reason a game called Super Mario Maker needs to have its full toolset locked away for a week and a half after purchasing. Regular Mario games don't make we wait a full day to play World 2 after I beat 1.

If we ever start complaining that their games are too short then maybe Nintendo's wacky solution will be to make the player wait to play later levels.

I just find this idea odd.  For better or worse this is the sort of idea I could ONLY imagine Nintendo coming up with.

For maximum hilarity watch as they'll now get the review copies out to the media less than 9 days before release so the reviewers can't access part of the game before publishing their review.

[Soren]

There will be levels available online and on-disc with full block set day 0.

Majority of people only want to PLAY levels, including those who are faking outrage about the game they didn't planned to buy on a console they don't own from a manufacturer they despise.

Here's the problem, though: people can't MAKE good levels for you to PLAY until they have access to all the tools. I'm not a big fan of level creation, either, but I still want to play good levels.

There's no justification as to why I should wait one day to use a fire flower or a star in my levels.

[Enner]

That's a very strange design decision.  I wonder if you can just move your console's clock ahead a few days and unlock everything at once.  Assuming you can't then the first user created levels made available to everyone will only use the first parts unlocked, so they'll be much lamer than they otherwise would be.  So Nintendo wants the first user created levels available to be lame simplistic levels that can't do much?  Huh?

You can't unlock everything at once as the game wants you to spend 3-5 minutes in the Maker to get the notification that tells you that you will unlock new building pieces the next day. The design goal, I presume, is to encourage players to play and make a little bit every day.

Oh hey, Nintendo is embracing mobile game strategies.

I guess the other design goal is to have creators gradually learn the elements day by day and limit how they might get in to trouble. But getting in to trouble is the best way to learn, isn't it?

I'm surprised that this time-locking design is getting such a huge thumbs-down when I really shouldn't be. I've played too many mobile games such that that nine day lock out has me saying, "Oh, that's short. It won't be long until I will have everything. I'll just put the time in and it will be done in no time."

I've forgotten that the target audience of this game probably binges on playing video games and would rather have everything all at once.

[Enner]

There's no justification as to why I should wait one day to use a fire flower or a star in my levels.

Nintendo: "You need to learn the mushroom and have it's concept settle in your mind before you are ready for the flower!"

"Please don't trade in our game."

[broodwars]

For maximum hilarity watch as they'll now get the review copies out to the media less than 9 days before release so the reviewers can't access part of the game before publishing their review.

I doubt they would do that. For all their faults, Nintendo has a reputation for getting review copies out very early (except for console launches), just with very strict and assinine NDAs.

[Enner]

For maximum hilarity watch as they'll now get the review copies out to the media less than 9 days before release so the reviewers can't access part of the game before publishing their review.

I doubt they would do that. For all their faults, Nintendo has a reputation for getting review copies out very early (except for console launches), just with very strict and assinine NDAs.

Any strictness that reaches our ears seem to be limited to story spoilers (which is understandable) and video content (which can be really stupid). Oh, I guess the embargo dates are messed up because Nintendo can't grasp the international nature of the internet and how websites can have offices in different parts of the world.

Also nice is that written reviews for Nintendo games tend to be posted a week before release.

[Ian Sane]

There's no justification as to why I should wait one day to use a fire flower or a star in my levels.

Nintendo: "You need to learn the mushroom and have it's concept settle in your mind before you are ready for the flower!"

"Please don't trade in our game."

You need to understand how mushrooms work even though the only people who would give the slightest **** about a game with NES style graphics are the long time fans of Mario who are fully aware how EVERYTHING in this game works.  A game that caters to nostalgia that treats the audience like rookies who don't know how any of it works?  Yep, only from Nintendo.  If you're a newcomer to Mario (so you're like 3 years old I suppose) this is very much NOT the game you would start with.

Though I wonder if this is somewhat how Nintendo designs levels themselves.  They tend to gradually introduce the concepts so maybe when they design levels they intentionally restrict themselves at the start so this is their way of getting the player to have the same mindset.  Still doesn't seem like something the user would want to have to go through though.

[Mop it up]

Considering how long I'll likely be playing this game, 9 days is insignificant. Besides, there are pre-made stages to try in the meantime.

[UncleBob]

Would this be better received if, instead of locking the stuff behind time retraints, it had been locked behind onther in-game requirements?  Like, you can't use Set B until you've completed World B?

That would be more inline with traditional video games, locking content behind in-game performance.

[broodwars]

Would this be better received if, instead of locking the stuff behind time retraints, it had been locked behind onther in-game requirements?  Like, you can't use Set B until you've completed World B?

That would be more inline with traditional video games, locking content behind in-game performance.

I would be OK with that, because then you could use the argument that "Well, now that you've seen how these things work for yourself, now they're yours to play with!" It's basically what LittleBigPlanet does with its Bubble Collectables. This just feels so...arbitrary.

[nickmitch]

There will be levels available online and on-disc with full block set day 0.

Majority of people only want to PLAY levels, including those who are faking outrage about the game they didn't planned to buy on a console they don't own from a manufacturer they despise.

Here's the problem, though: people can't MAKE good levels for you to PLAY until they have access to all the tools. I'm not a big fan of level creation, either, but I still want to play good levels.

You can totally make good levels with the first set.  Just gotta git gud.

[Adrock]

I'd liken this to how games don't give you the best items or weapons at the beginning of the game. The point is that you have to learn the mechanics of the game and whatnot. In that sense, I can kind of see the line of thinking here even if I don't entirely agree with it. Due to the type of game Super Mario Maker is, unlocking new toolsets isn't the same thing as say Link getting the Master Sword a few hours into most Zelda games. How do the developers decide if players are ready for the next toolset? That's a rhetorical question since they can't so I think the idea is "Fool around with this stuff then we'll give you more tomorrow." In order to guide players through the learning curve of stage creation (I'm not even a planning on creating many stages if any at all, and I'm probably still underestimating just how difficult it is to make a decent one), some limitations are expected if not welcome. However, looking at the unlock schedule and it seems so arbitrary. The Chain Chomp isn't unlocked until day nine. That's an odd choice. I'd understand locking some of the crazier stuff at first.

I suppose it would make more sense to lock the toolsets behind a wall dictated by hours spent creating stages or through single player advancement rather than per day. I plan on playing this well past that nine day period so in the long run this barely matters. That doesn't make this choice any less bizarre and silly, but I can't say I'm especially bothered by it now or in the grand scheme of things.

[Ian Sane]

Would this be better received if, instead of locking the stuff behind time retraints, it had been locked behind onther in-game requirements?  Like, you can't use Set B until you've completed World B?

That would be more inline with traditional video games, locking content behind in-game performance.

A nice way to do it would be both.  You can either complete the levels or have the time pass, whatever happens first.  Then if you suck at the game and can't beat the levels the stuff still unlocks for you at some point.

[Stogi]

There will be levels available online and on-disc with full block set day 0.

Majority of people only want to PLAY levels, including those who are faking outrage about the game they didn't planned to buy on a console they don't own from a manufacturer they despise.

Here's the problem, though: people can't MAKE good levels for you to PLAY until they have access to all the tools. I'm not a big fan of level creation, either, but I still want to play good levels.

There's no justification as to why I should wait one day to use a fire flower or a star in my levels.

As someone who is a bit creative, being artificially restricted is a great way to try something new. So instead of being overwhelmed with the full set of tools, maybe Nintendo thinks it might actually be better for you to learn the basics and goof around with a few things first. Then if you're having fun, the next day you can try a new set of tools, and so on and so forth until you've actually tried them on.

[Dasmos]

So it's been confirmed that you can just skip ahead the date to unlock everything, so I guess people can stop having a sook about it now.

[broodwars]

So it's been confirmed that you can just skip ahead the date to unlock everything, so I guess people can stop having a sook about it now.

Sure, if you feel like going through the severe pain in the ass of going into the game, screwing around in the editor for 5 minutes, exiting the game, waiting for the Wii U to finish its minute-long load into the System Settings, changing the date, waiting for the Wii U to finish its minute-long load into the main menu, going back into the game, wash, rinse, repeat.

[UncleBob]

I have to agree - while I'm not as offended as some by this lock-out, having to fiddle with your system settings if you don't like it is *totally* not a reasonable way around what one would define as a concious flaw in the design of the game.

[Ian Sane]

I've been watching a couple videos from guys with review copies and I find myself... excited?  I'm thinking to myself "man, when I get this I'm going to..." and then I stop and realize I don't have a Wii U so I can't get this...yet.  That's kind of the thinking you're supposed to get with a system seller.  Imagine if the Wii U launched with this instead of NSMB U.  Despite being a sidescroller with gameplay lifted right out of the old titles it has a concept that has not been seen in a Mario game before in the level creator.  The best Mario games usually offered something that the prior games didn't have.  Not only is this more interesting than NSMB U but it also makes really good use of the Gamepad.  The concept wouldn't work well without the touchscreen which means unlike the other Wii U Mario games you couldn't do this on prior Nintendo consoles.

USGamer has a series going where the reviewer makes a new level using the tools made available each day.  The approach is to design a Mario game using the same design philosophies that Nintendo does and how they want you to play the game.  It actually is a pretty good argument in favour of the unlocking system.

But then there is the opposite approach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGZ-mD53X1w
The creator is trying to throw everything he can think of into a mega level that looks incredibly fun.  But you couldn't do this until day 7 or so.  And there's the argument for not locking the features - you can't jump right in and create something cool like this.