Topic: Miyamoto Confirms Revolution Control for Zelda

[GoldenPhoenix]

I have to agree, Wind Waker was an amazing game. Personally it is my 2nd favorite Zelda, behind LTTP (I did not care much for Majora's Mask), sure it had a lack of dungeons and a lame collectathon at the end but it still was an amazing experience. The visuals were stunning and engrossed me more than OOT, the story was quite solid for a Zelda game, the atmosphere was great (time frozen Hyrule anyone? Definately one of my favorite gaming moments), and the gameplay mechanics were flawless. I for one enjoyed sailing, it was relaxing and it had enough action here and there to keep you on your toes. The boss fights were fun, if not a bit easy, but fun none the less, and the final boss fight was definately interesting with one of the coolest Zelda endings ever.

[croumeli]

“Wind Waker was a bold move, the kind of move that makes Nintendo so great. The game was incomplete, but it was a fantastic experience for me, it was timeless and absolutely charming, the game is simply unique. Twilight Princess is Nintendo getting coward, giving remote functionality, besides all my other complains, is Nintendo being coward regarding the rev. You cant even compare these two at all.”

Man I just read through all your posts, and you are contradicting yourself left and right.  The statement above is so absurd and contradictory that I cannot even come to believe that you fully back up, and wholeheartedly believe, what you are saying or even trying to say.

If “Wind Waker was a bold move, the kind of move that makes Nintendo so great” then
......you obviously missed the boat here....COMPLETELY.....

When you saw the WW trailer.....YOU doubted Nintendo for drastically switching the graphical style....But when you actually played the finished product.....WW was all of a sudden “fantastic”, “charming”, “timeless”!!!!  This was a BOLD move by Nintendo right???

By definition MAN a bold move is a move that is daring, fearless, and risky.......YOU doubt that Nintendo can deliver with the added Revmote functionality......YOU doubt that the game will not see any benefit......YOU have no faith in Nintendo because you feel that they cannot deliver a great product while appeasing both the GC and the REV customer.......NINTENDO may lose you as a customer!!!!........YOU feel this way about Nintendo’s new move for TP right???........then you by DEFINITION have labeled this move BOLD!

HOW can you simply sit back and state that “Twilight Princess is Nintendo getting coward” WHEN YOU YOURSELF  HAVE ABSOLUTELY DEFINED NINTENDO’S MOVE AS BOLD!!!!........adding Revmote functionality.......something completely unconventional.......to anything.......is the boldest move for Nintendo........Nintendo has the potential of falling hard.....or even regaining its crown....THAT MAN...........IS COURAGEOUS AND BOLD!!!!.....but to state that adding Revmote functionality........is "cowardly"....even when you do not even know anything about it yet either.....is.....completely......scandalous.....and .....absurd!!!

AND WHY CAN’T WE COMPARE WW and TP??  WHEN CAN YOU NOT COMPARE GAMES THAT ARE BOTH COMPLETLEY ZELDA........and to my absolute surprise.....wow this is a huge revelation.......BOTH GAMES CONTAINED SOMETHING “UNCONVENTIONAL”.........according to you I CANNOT “even compare these two at all”?!?!?!?!

And you yourself stated that WW was “incomplete”........ “but it was a fantastic experience for me, it was timeless and absolutely charming”.......YOU CAN ACTUALLY SAY THAT BECAUSE YOU ACTAULLY PLAYED THE GAME!!!.....NOW......WHY.....IN THE HEELLL.........CAN’T YOU SEE YOUR OWN LOGIC HERE??.....SOOOOO.....with YOUR OWN ENLIGHTENING LOGIC......you have just agreed.....that EVEN IF TP offers “incomplete” GC support or “incomplete” Revmote functionality........you MAY ACTUALLY find that it is “fantastic”, “charming”, and “timeless” as well!!!!!!

YOU CANNOT SAY FOR SURE UNTIL YOU GAAAD DAAAYMN ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME!!!!!  Stop contradicting yourself and stop whining for no apparent reason!!!

[RiskyChris]

That post was blistering on the eyes to read.  Use less caps and ellipsis...es.

[wandering]

So...if croumeli's IP was banned, how much do you want to bet PIAC would suddenly not be able to post as well?

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: mantidor
Going in circles again?

You people are making it sound like TP was crucial for the Rev, which would be a terrible, terrible scenario for the future of the console, as has been said, like, a million times, now that I pointed out that, you will say, agreeing with me, again, that Zelda with rev controls wont make or break the revs launch, and we get back to the original point, that this funcionality then really isnt needed.

"FYI Mantidor, I'm also willing to bash Mjora's Mask. This is not about toon shading, it is about thegame itself."

Oh you just have bad taste in games, then ^_^ Majora's Mask is perfect

No one is saying that TP is a must for the Rev launch. What we ARE saying is that it makes the Rev launch BETTER. And most importantly, TP's quality isn't degraded in such a move, perhaps even improved.

Also, Majora's Mask wasn't directed by Shigeru Miyamoto. Therefore, by definition, it can't be perfect!

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[mantidor]

hahaha croumeli's post has made my day. Just to be sure, because I think Ive only repeated it like 50 times, I dont think TP will be a bad game. When I said that the GC version will "suffer" because of the functionality, I mean that the standalone GC game, the one I care about, could be better if all the focus is on GC, which is obvious. Our disagreement comes into how much are we willing to accept this "sacrifice" for lack of a better word, I think is unacceptable because Nintendo promised it and got my hype up, some of you think is acceptable because it will get an incentive for people to jump onboard to the Rev and also think that this "sacrifice" wont be of consideration as opposed to what I think. But we all agree that the game will be good.  

[Kairon]

Mantidor, the GC-portion of the game can only suffer if the game is derailed to add rev controller functionality. No one can say whether that is happening, will happen, or has already happened.

But a lot of us are encouraged by the fact that the game is being delayed instead of rushed, that when they refer to rev functionality as an addition they truly mean an addition as opposed to the sort of "replacement-addition that Ian fears the Rev controller is, and that the game by some reports felt more or less complete last fall when people played its demo. Why would Nintendo bother to go into the completed GC game and retool its guts when they still intend on it being played on the GC? Why wouldn't they overlay an optional control scheme on the complete game that doesn't change anything about the game except how it receives and interprets input?

You seem to be predicting that Nintendo will go into the GC game and dramatically alter the way it plays with a GC controller just so they can add Revolution input, a situation where I cannot possibly imagine any derived benefits!

Or are you proposing that they GC game will be damaged because it will be delayed? Will a few extra months of waiting make the game less of an accomplishment or failure than how Nintendo imbues it with spirit?

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Renny]

[Kairon]

Why would you see the SIDE of the ambulance through a rear-view or side-view mirror?

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[ThePerm]

actually, I would think that including revolution functionality in Twilight Princess is a very offensive move. It adds sugar to the cake. From a few of the Interviews I have read they have been wanting to make Zelda have this sort ofd funtionality for years, but rather than releasing an add-on for the cube..which would definitely be precieved as a sparkling innovationy device as all add-ons do, they are releasing it for the cube with the chance to upgrade the gameplay with the new controller.

[Mario]

Quote
Originally posted by: RiskyChris
No, a lot of people are saying that TP is an excellent complement to the revolution's launch.  That doesn't "make or break", rather, it "makes or better makes" the launch.

Why would GC owners care about the Rev launch?

Also Majoras Mask is indeed the best Zelda ever

[GoldenPhoenix]

I think most GC owners will care about Rev's launch considering that the first initial buyers will be those that have bought a cube and previous Nintendo products.  

[Hostile Creation]

Majora's Mask is my third favorite Zelda, behind Link's Awakening (the best, if you argue you're wrong) and Wind Waker.
Majora's Mask just had too many dull, tedious parts (far more tedious than sailing and even triforce hunting, the latter of which I didn't mind cuz I only had to find three after I'd beaten the Wind Temple).  The sidequests were awesome, incredible even, but the main quest felt a little weary at times.
Wind Waker had a better balance between the two.

[odifiend]

Quote
Originally posted by: Mario

Quote
Originally posted by: RiskyChris
No, a lot of people are saying that TP is an excellent complement to the revolution's launch.  That doesn't "make or break", rather, it "makes or better makes" the launch.

Why would GC owners care about the Rev launch?

Are you serious?  I just realized that VGrevolution replied to your question, but it is so absurd, it bears repeating.  Along with what VGR said, the Revolution is backwards compatible and current Gamecube owners are the quickest to buy Nintnedo products.  

[stevey]

"I dont think TP will be a bad game. When I said that the GC version will "suffer" because of the functionality, "

I dont think the game will suffer because of the rev stuff add on because they have work on the gc version for a year to get it just right and they'er not going to mess it up. Add rev support wont break the game, when has aiming the bow been a big part of the zelda difficulty or gameplay, were the game will be broken when it gets improved, add rev controls to the game wont mean that every single part of the game will now have to be changed. Redoing the game and everything before to be thrown out by the fact of revmote is just silly. The cube version has been perfected and it wont be mess with, if the monster move faster or are thougher in the rev version wont make them faster is the cube game mode. And the tp going to change as much on the rev as oot on n64 did changed in oot master quest on gc port.  

[wandering]

Quote
Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
The sidequests were awesome, incredible even, but the main quest felt a little weary at times.

Well, since the sidequests were the whole point of the game, I'm not sure that was much a problem....

Quote
Originally posted by: mantidor
dont think TP will be a bad game. When I said that the GC version will "suffer" because of the functionality, I mean that the standalone GC game, the one I care about, could be better if all the focus is on GC, which is obvious.

No offence, but, to me, this is a bit like reacting to the unveiling of the TP boxart with 'The box art is fantastic! This is terrible! How could Nintendo betray me like this? If they had focused more on the game and less on making good box art, the game could've been even better!'

[Hostile Creation]

"Well, since the sidequests were the whole point of the game, I'm not sure that was much a problem...."

I know, that's why it's my third favorite Zelda of all time

[Ian Sane]

Somewhat delayed response here but I was busy on the weekend.

"Rev has a brighter future than the GameCube initially displayed."

I disagree.  At the time we were pretty optimistic about the Cube.  It was supposed to be Nintendo's big comeback because now they didn't have the cartridges limiting them and they had this awesome dream team of devs like Rare, Silicon Knights, Left Field, and Retro Studios.  And Microsoft was a newcomber who clearly didn't know gaming and thus wouldn't be a threat.  The Rev's potential is much smaller.  Nintendo's reputation in the console market is far more tarnished.  It's going to take more to convince someone that this time Nintendo isn't going to underperform and that five years from now we're not going to be in the same boat where virtually no games are being released because support has almost completely dried up.  Plus the Rev is so risky.  It's offering something very different and we can't say for sure it will be accepted.  The Rev has to work the hardest of all of Nintendo's consoles to gain acceptance and it's probably the riskiest system Nintendo has ever released except for the Virtual Boy.  So it doesn't have a brighter looking future than the Cube did initially.  Brighter than the Cube ended up having?  Maybe.  But when the Cube was first shown there was a lot more optimism and a lot more hype.

Regarding the whole Zelda issue my point remains that if the Rev needs Zelda at launch then the Rev is screwed.  There is no way in hell that Nintendo could successfully sell a brand new concept like the Rev on the strength of a last generation title.  It's not a bad idea to cover all their bases and hedge their bets but the Rev needs to stand on it's own two feet and blow everyone away right off the bat.  Who honestly, besides hardcore Nintendo fans, do you think is going to give the Rev time to prove itself?  The competition is more popular and has more potential for third party support.  No one is going to sit around waiting for a title that really demonstrates the remote.  It's a new concept no one asked for or wanted.  Nintendo has to sell it right away.  The way Nintendo is seen by the general gaming public today I'd say that even if the Rev was a more traditional console they would have to make a fantastic first impression or else everyone would just assume it would be another "Nintendo flop".  Ever had a situation where someone just didn't have any faith in you and in their mind you seemingly could do no right?  If you hadn't seen that person in a few years the next time you met them, to prove them wrong you would have to show them right away.  If the first thing you did didn't impress you would be screwed.  Nothing you could do would change their opinion.  It's the same way with Nintendo.  Everyone assumes it's always going to be the same underachievement so Nintendo has to prove them wrong right away because they only have one chance.

So Zelda for the Rev launch can't be a requirement for Nintendo's launch plans.  The launch needs to be able stand alone.

[Kairon]

I agree with you Ian, if all the Rev has is Zelda:TP to show off its controller then it WILL be a disappointing launch.

Of course, there are shades of grey in-between succes and total failure. The GC launch was a sort of "eh" launch with Rogue Leader and Luigi's Mansion, and only several months later the killer app Smash Bros. The PS2 launch was a failure of course, the games were immensely underwhelming, but then again Sony had a year of luxury and plenty of momentum. The DC launch was pretty well received...I think. And both the PSP and DS launches were sort of not break-out, with the DS correcting that to a greater extent than the PSP. And the XBox 360 also had a sort of "eh" launch, though like the PS2 it also has a year's grace period.

I think we also need to look at how long of a honeymoon period a console gets when launching. It's pretty much a shoe-in that both the PS3 and Rev will sell out at launch on hype or novelty alone.

Actually, come to think of it, let's ditch this old notion of a "system launch" and adopt the "launch window" term used by industry heads because it's pretty well shown that what matters is NOT the launch itself, but after the honeymoon period is over. The XBox 360 has had a semi-drought, but with key titles coming out late spring that may come to an end. The PS3 is said to have 100 games in development, so I don't think they'll have any drought of titles after the launch. But Nintendo? Hmm....

This adds another benefit to the forward-compatibility of TP. Nintendo will surely have less games from third parties than either MS or Sony, that's a fact that won't be rectified overnight. Now, this ISN'T a fact that dooms them, (compare to the XBox's non-existent JPN support at launch, and the sense about a year after its launch that Halo was the only thing worth owning it for) it just means that Nintendo will have to play smart with the resources they have. Another big title at launch like TP will allow Nintendo to relax their release schedule just a little bit longer and hopefully prevent players from feeling any sort of drought at all.

And of course, a "lack-of-proof launch" like you predict Ian, works from the assumption that Nintendo has no games of innovative significance during the launch window. That is a pretty large IF though, so I don't think that the scenario you paint is the most likely one.

~Carmine Red
Kairon@aol.com

[nemo_83]

I've been suspicious of this being the reason for the delay since it was first announced.  Perhaps at GDC we will find out whether this means full 3D sword control or simply just aiming for the bow and camera control via the remote.

And I do think this means Zelda at or within a month of launch of Revolution.

[Kairon]

I strongly doubt that the only thing they're adding with all this extra time is rev controller compatibility. I'm interested in finding all the chunka of content and side quests and quirks and nooks and crannys and crooks and grannies they throw in.

But then again...Miyamoto isn't directing it... so I'm sure to be disappointed. *sigh*

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[wandering]

Quote
I disagree. At the time we were pretty optimistic about the Cube. It was supposed to be Nintendo's big comeback because now they didn't have the cartridges limiting them and they had this awesome dream team of devs like Rare, Silicon Knights, Left Field, and Retro Studios. And Microsoft was a newcomber who clearly didn't know gaming and thus wouldn't be a threat. The Rev's potential is much smaller. Nintendo's reputation in the console market is far more tarnished. It's going to take more to convince someone that this time Nintendo isn't going to underperform and that five years from now we're not going to be in the same boat where virtually no games are being released because support has almost completely dried up. Plus the Rev is so risky. It's offering something very different and we can't say for sure it will be accepted. The Rev has to work the hardest of all of Nintendo's consoles to gain acceptance and it's probably the riskiest system Nintendo has ever released except for the Virtual Boy. So it doesn't have a brighter looking future than the Cube did initially. Brighter than the Cube ended up having? Maybe. But when the Cube was first shown there was a lot more optimism and a lot more hype.

I think you're talking for yourself here more than the population at large. Nintendo's reputation is more tarnished after the cube than it was after the n64, the system that was almost universally deemed a collosal failure? We were optimistic for the cube, but aren't optimistic for the rev? The rev's potential is much smaller than the cube? The cube had more hype than the rev? What?

edit, oh, just one more thing. Those of you worried about the new Zelda, Miyamoto has just confirmed that it will be perfect, so no worries:

Quote
Zelda is a project with a huge volume of people and complex game development procedures," said Miyamoto, speaking with Official Nintendo Magazine. "As soon as we decided to postpone the game from last year to this year and make the perfect Zelda, all the team were delighted to have the time to work on many ideas.

[EasyCure]

Then you go on to call Nintendo cowardly for taking Zelda: TP, which for all we know is shaping up to be a very content-strong game UNLIKE Wind Waker, taking TP and adding just a single aspect of forward compatibility and you call that cowardly. Here is a company that is going for the gold, trying to balance creativity and the pressures of the real world, trying to do its legacy justice WHILE AT THE SAME TIME trying to ensure that it has a future, a company that apologizes to consumers when they run out of DS units or DS lites, a company that has just introduced an entirely new game interface and is taking the leap into the unknown, a company that is the last bastion against the uber-commercialization of mega-corporations like Sony and Microsoft, a company that does all this... and you call them cowardly?



-Ahmen brother. Preach on, preach on.
It'd be a sad sad day if Nintendo every became anything like Sony or Microsoft. I'll even go as for to say that i'd be more content with Nintendo dying out all together over going the Sega route. The day nintendo soley makes game for the dollar is the day i stop giving that dollar to nintendo. I"ve said it before and i'll say it over and over again. Call me a fanboy or whatever, i simply don't care, i've been a nintendo fan since the age of 3 and always saw myself as being one till the day i die. It sounds emo, i know, but its true. It was they're passion of gaming reflected in the games they created, some of the greatest of the ages, that kept me coming back for more again and again. WindWaker was rushed, i see that in hind-sight but at the time of completing it i was still blown away but what a wonderfull experiance it gave off. Thats why i think its sad that when Nintendo tries to keep its fans happy by giving a Zelda release and delivering, it gets thrown in their face because it felt "rushed". Now they do their usual routine of delaying a game to fix the wrongs of the past and all alot of you can see is "gimick this, gimick taht" and "their only out for my dollar". well t heir supposed to be as a company, but the main goal as developers, is to give you the best damn gamin experience you've ever had and make every dollar you dished out count. Thats how i see them going about this.
i don't think its cowardly at all to be the "last place competitor" and tell the world you dont want to be apart of the console war while actually trying to take away steam form a competitors launch. personally i think that takes balls of steal.

[Ian Sane]

"Actually, come to think of it, let's ditch this old notion of a 'system launch' and adopt the 'launch window' term used by industry heads because it's pretty well shown that what matters is NOT the launch itself, but after the honeymoon period is over."

That probably is a better way to look at it.  I still think it's really important to make a good first impression in this case because of what Nintendo has promised.  I fear that if they don't deliver at launch the gaming media will rag on them for the remote just being a g!mmick and I think it would just overall be better to avoid something like that.

But there is a window period where things can be corrected.  I think the crucial time period is from launch until the second Christmas.  The first Christmas is usually pretty close to the launch so it doesn't really count.  The second Christmas though takes place after the console has been out for at least a year and releases are coming out a regular rate and the demand at that Christmas is more indicative of the real demand from the public, while the first year it's more about hardcore nuts and early adopters.  Typically in the first few months after that Christmas we can see where things are going.  It was clear that after Christmas 1997 that the Playstation was going to beat the N64.  It was clear after Christmas 2002 that the Xbox would beat the Cube for second place.  Once that point is reached everyone just assumes that things will stay that way so it's impossible to break out.  The "ranking" has been established and that affects people's decisions regarding console purchases.  People will be drawn to one console because it's in first while they'll be turned off by another console because it's in last.

[Kairon]

That's a very good observation Ian.

And I think that we can all agree that if the Revolution hasn't had any "proof games" by it's second Christmas, THEN we have had a disappointing launch, to put it mildly.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com