Topic: The Wiimote does NOT work like people seem to think...

[Wiiner]

Nintendo has told us all along that this was a new technology that 'the console's controller can detect its exact location and orientation in 3D space' with 'pixel-perfect accuracy'. This lead me, and likely you to believe that this was like some sort of 3D grid in the room that the console could detect exactly where it is, and in what position it is in. That if you laid the controller on the floor and started up the system, it would know that the controller is on the floor. There is no new technology at work here, but rather the culmination of two existing technologies used in a new way.

Interesting stuff I think - sheds a little light on how things work...

http://www.xgaming.com/newsletter/Wii%20Dupe.shtml

[wandering]

Yeah, I think the fact that the console can't track the controllers perfectly isn't surprising, considering what we've learned from E3. I think he may be underestimating the controllers a little, though: they can't be used to control a boxer's arm? Why not? It knows where you want a cursor to appear on the screen,  it knows if you push the wiimote towards the screen...throwing a punch shouldn't be that hard, especially since we know how well the controller works for tennis swings.

Anyway. Interesting that it seems IGN was half right: if you're too close to the sensor bar, you may need to point the wiimote at the bar:

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But then a Nintendo® rep came to my rescue and told me to take 2 steps back and aim the controller at the sensor bar stuck to the bottom of the TV set...whoah!... that's better.

Also interesting that there are 3 accelerometers in the wiimote (and 2 in the nunchaku.)

[Wiiner]

"in real time"

[TrueNerd]

Interesting, I guess, but how close to the tv was this guy at E3? I'm guessing a lot closer then I'll be in my basement.  

[thejeek]

Surely for tracking gestures like boxing, the accelerometers should be sufficient - to throw a punch the system only needs to track the rough direction and force of the movement from a known starting postition - pixel perfect accuracy is probably unncessary.

I think that, in practice, you'll either be aiming at a specify game object, which will be on the screen and so in range of the bar from most practical angles where you can confortably see the TV, or you'll be making gestures where absolute positional accuracy is not required.

Finally, developers will be aware of the issues and will play test everything extensively before release - everything at E3 still has months of development and testing to go before release.

[trip1eX]

Yeah it looks like from all the reports out there from E3 that you can't aim directly at a spot on the TV like with a lightgun like I thought.   Altho then again I'm not positive about that either.

The article is a bit off about the boxing arm thing.  The wiimote is a gesture system.  And it can determine location in 3d space away from the sensor bar and direction and angle and acceleration/speed.

Here's a couple paragraphs  about the Wii and sensor bar from another article.


"The sensor bar emits an infrared field out directly in front of the TV. In order to accomplish this, it is necessary to place the sensor bar in the same plane as the TV, either on top of or below the TV is recommended. As the remote is pointed towards the TV, it interacts with the infrared field. Using triangulation logic, the remote is able to determine location, angle, and distance; as you move the remote around, the change in location/angle/distance is calculated. The remote then communicates with the console via Bluetooth, sending this information to it, and from there the software determines how your movements relate to the game world/application.

The sensor bar doesn't receive any type of signal from the wireless remote and is there purely to generate the field. The remote also has a gyrometer and accelerometer to allow it, for instance in the tennis game, to know the difference between a back hand or regular swing. You need to maintain a proper distance from the sensor bar as well; if you come to within about three feet or less, it will not work precisely."

http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2757
 

[Wiiner]

"it can determine location in 3d space" - the article proves this to be incorrect. If it could, why would it need an accelerometer at all? Why would it need infrared pointing technology at all?

[thejeek]

Exactly. Triangulation from only two points is not sufficient to determine location in 3D space - hence the need for both accelerometers and the sensor bar. Whether this is a problem in practice though remains to be seen.

[EDIT] triangulating from two points only allows you to determine your position on a circle centered on a line passing through those two points, and in fact triangulation from an arbitrary number of points along the same line in space (e.g. the sensor bar) does not improve this situation.

[UltimatePartyBear]

That's a very weird way to put it.  The remote doesn't "interact" with a "field."  Depending on its position, the bright spots from the IR LEDs will show up in different spots on its CMOS sensor.  As for whether you point at the bar or the TV, there's no conceivable reason why you couldn't calibrate the thing so that you could point at the TV.  Somewhere I posted a link to the LCD TopGun, which works much the same way.  The fact that Nintendo still calls it a sensor bar makes me wonder if there isn't more to it, though.  It could be just convention by now, or maybe the Bluetooth receiver is in the bar, too.  Nintendo probably won't ever publically announce everything about how it works, sadly.

[thejeek]

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Nintendo probably won't ever publically announce everything about how it works, sadly.

I think this is probably because it's capabilities are indeed more limited than they've led people to believe: roughly accurate sensing of linear acceleration and rotation plus fairly accurate sensing of angle relative to sensor bar within a limited range of distances and angles. This likely won't afffect gameplay, so long as developers stick with what works well, but it could be a stick for Nintendo's competitors to beat them with

[Wiiner]

"there's no conceivable reason why you couldn't calibrate the thing so that you could point at the TV" - That's what one Nintendo rep told me at E3 too, but all of the Wiimotes I played there that used the pointing you pointed at the bar.  

If you had a projector and you had the sensor bar at the bottom of the screen near your floor, then you calibrated it to point at the screen, when you pointed at the top of your screen near the ceiling the IR signal could be lost...maybe...

[zakkiel]

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Exactly. Triangulation from only two points is not sufficient to determine location in 3D space - hence the need for both accelerometers and the sensor bar. Whether this is a problem in practice though remains to be seen.

It doesn't use those sensors for triangulation, at least not in the way you think. It doesn't sense the absolute distance to the sensors, just the relative distances between the sensors and the ports on the remote. So they won't help locate it in space, just sense orientation.

[Infernal Monkey]

The Wiimote will work like Sony's new PS3 controller, because Nintendo obviously stole the idea.  

[KDR_11k]

If you had a projector and you had the sensor bar at the bottom of the screen near your floor, then you calibrated it to point at the screen, when you pointed at the top of your screen near the ceiling the IR signal could be lost...maybe...

Solution: Don't sit too close to the TV . Seriously, if you are close enough to have such viewing angle problems you're too close.

[UltimatePartyBear]

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Originally posted by: thejeek

I think this is probably because it's capabilities are indeed more limited than they've led people to believe: roughly accurate sensing of linear acceleration and rotation plus fairly accurate sensing of angle relative to sensor bar within a limited range of distances and angles. This likely won't afffect gameplay, so long as developers stick with what works well, but it could be a stick for Nintendo's competitors to beat them with

How's the competition going to beat them with it when their own controllers are far more limited?  Even if Sony's motion sensing was identical to Nintendo's, Nintendo's can be used as a pointer, and with the nunchuck you get two motion sensing controllers in one.  Besides, you're downplaying the Wiimote's capabilities too much.  It's very accurate sensing of acceleration on three axes simultaneously plus tilt plus rotation plus almost too-accurate by some accounts pointing.

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Originally posted by: Wiiner
"there's no conceivable reason why you couldn't calibrate the thing so that you could point at the TV" - That's what one Nintendo rep told me at E3 too, but all of the Wiimotes I played there that used the pointing you pointed at the bar.  

Then I would say that the Wiimotes you used were improperly calibrated or the games you played weren't working right.  Some of the impressions I've read explicitly stated that you aim at the screen.

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If you had a projector and you had the sensor bar at the bottom of the screen near your floor, then you calibrated it to point at the screen, when you pointed at the top of your screen near the ceiling the IR signal could be lost...maybe...

If my rough estimates are correct, the maximum screen size exceeds anything you're likely to find in any home theater.  However, I think that after the novelty wears off, playing games on a huge screen is more trouble than it's worth.  It can be a pain to actually have to turn your head to see incoming enemies, for example.  Anyway, way back when Nintendo announced the Wiimote they said they tested it with 100" screens.  You wouldn't have to put the bar in the middle of the screen, like with the LCD TopGun, if the viewing angle was big enough, either.

Of course, I wouldn't take anything in the article on xgaming at face value.  It's written in such a way that I question the writer's grasp of technology.

[thejeek]

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How's the competition going to beat them with it when their own controllers are far more limited? Even if Sony's motion sensing was identical to Nintendo's, Nintendo's can be used as a pointer, and with the nunchuck you get two motion sensing controllers in one. Besides, you're downplaying the Wiimote's capabilities too much. It's very accurate sensing of acceleration on three axes simultaneously plus tilt plus rotation plus almost too-accurate by some accounts pointing.

It sounds like the wiimote is quite accurate enough for any reasonable game use. I simply see a potential problem with people getting worked up if Nintendo have described it as having accurate 3D positioning when it (in a very narrow, technical and probably unimportant sense, admittedly) doesn't - simply because some people would like to see Nintendo fail and it's easy to get the public upset by letting them think they've been lied to.

The fact that competitors controllers perform worse may not be the issue, if they haven't made claims for them that aren't strictly accurate

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: thejeek
It sounds like the wiimote is quite accurate enough for any reasonable game use. I simply see a potential problem with people getting worked up if Nintendo have described it as having accurate 3D positioning when it (in a very narrow, technical and probably unimportant sense, admittedly) doesn't - simply because some people would like to see Nintendo fail and it's easy to get the public upset by letting them think they've been lied to.

The fact that competitors controllers perform worse may not be the issue, if they haven't made claims for them that aren't strictly accurate

Sony lies their goddamn head off and still won the last console war. They promised "Toy Story" graphics for the PS2 and other such nonsense and they clearly didn't deliver on that.

The only punishment for "exaggerating" in the gaming industry seems to be that a few die-hard fanboys get pissed at you and everyone else goes on buying your product.

[thejeek]

True - but I think that maybe just proves they're better at lieing than their competition in general and Nintendo in particular. I admit I'm a pessamist and incredibly cynical but I can see Sony lieing through their teeth left right and center, while Nintendo make a slight exaggeration of the capability of their controller and Sony come up smelling of roses and Nintendo get a pasting from a media that have an irrational need to do them in :-(

[willie1234]

they should add 4d capabilities to keep up with competition.

[thejeek]

Only 4D? For backwards compatibility they should probably have 34D. Or maybe 34DD, just to be double sure...

[willie1234]

ok, how about 4d, and they wait until Sony says the next generation starts to release the wii.

[Switchblade Cross]

I could refute his arguments, but it has already been done in a few previous posts.  I'd like to point out that the person who wrote this also seems to be under the impression that Wii still may have 3D projection  capabilities.  Sorry, but that would not only make me take these statements with a grain of salt, but perhaps all of the salt and sodium in an order of McDonalds french fries...

[Wiiner]

I think the article about the 3D is simply pointing out facts, at the end he doesn't sound convinced of anything.

[IceCold]

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This lead me, and likely you to believe that this was like some sort of 3D grid in the room that the console could detect exactly where it is, and in what position it is in.

I didn't believe that, and I don't know how anyone would jump to that conclusion after the NRC was revealed. What we have is exactly what I envisioned..

[Michael8983]

Didn't a developer of Trauma Center say the game would involve "depth" and gave the example of thrusting the controller forward and backwards to simulate a defibrillator?

If the technology at work can indeed detect the tilt/rotation of the of the controller, where it's pointed, and how far away from the sensor bar it is - it can more or less do everything a 3D mouse could even if it technically isn't one.

As for the example of it not being able to detect where in the room the Wii-mote is upon boot-up. Does you're computer know where on your desk your mouse is when it boots up?