Topic: La Mulana is F***ed up!

[Pixelated Pixies]

So I got La Mulana on Saturday and while it was at first a little daunting I was really digging it. I had unlocked a number of useful items, opened up quite a few new areas and was even getting to grips with the game's cryptic hints system. I reached a certain point, however, where I felt like I had explored everywhere I could explore and completed all the puzzles I could complete. So I did what I always do in that position, I turned the game off and resolved to tackle it afresh the next day.
 
Sunday came and went, however, without me making any further progress in the game. I must have spent about 5 hours just walking about trying to uncover a clue which might set me back on the right path, but to no avail.
 
Today after work I decided to give the game one more crack. This time I did uncover a brand new area, but it too dead ended after an hour or two, so I returned to what might be considered the first temple/dungeon of the game in the hopes that all my previous experience would help me to intuit what to do next. After hours of checking stone tablets, pressing switches and even whipping at suspicious looking walls and blocks I finally gave up.
 
I took the easy way out. I went on to youtube and watched a video walkthrough of how to beat the first dungeon which was called 'The Gate of Guidance'. For those that wish to play the game themselves please avoid the following, as it is a description of the completely nonsense and utterly unintuitive process by which that dungeon's boss is unlocked.
 


You have to defeat two red enemies in one room so that a box in an adjacent room falls from a hole in a wall. The box is then used to press a switch (the last part at least makes sense). This opens the door to the boss chamber but not the boss itself.
 
You then have to whip four stone pillars, each with an image of an element (Water, Fire, Wind & Blood). There actually is a message on one of the stone tablets which tells you in which sequence they should be whipped. The problem is that every time you try to whip them in that sequence you get a shock from the dungeon's security system.
 
So what do you do? Why, you go up two levels in the dungeon and use an invisible bridge to cross over to another platform in order to press a switch. Said switch of course turns off the security system. Of course! How could I have been so stupid. 

 
My main beef with how the puzzles and levels in this game have been designed is that they ask you to do seemingly unrelated and disparate actions in a completely unintuitive sequence in order to proceed. Why for instance would killing enemies in one room cause a box to drop in another? How would a player know first of all that there is an invisible bridge, and secondly that by crossing it and pressing a switch that it would cause a security system two floors below to deactivate.
 
It's absolute madness. I started off really digging this game. The music is awesome, the graphics are basic but appealing in a 16bit sort of way, and the action and platforming are reminiscent of both Metroid and Castlevania. Unfortunately, La Mulana also aped the worst elements of both those series. La Mulana is badly designed in the same way that the original Metroid and Castlevania II were badly designed. The actions required of the player are not dictated by logic and the solutions are arbitrary and irrational.

La Mulana is F***ed up!
 
 

[ejamer]

Not reading the spoilers until I have a chance to play for myself, but I bet you won't be the only one with this reaction.  Some people swear that the required hints exist and that the game is difficult (bordering on cheap) but not impossible. Others disagree... strongly.


As a part-time masochist who often enjoys badly-designed games more than they deserve, I'm curious to see how it stacks up against my expectations. Just need to finish Monster World IV first, which is a great old-school game that is much easier to recommend for people who like classic 16-bit games.

[Pixelated Pixies]

Not reading the spoilers until I have a chance to play for myself, but I bet you won't be the only one with this reaction.  Some people swear that the required hints exist and that the game is difficult (bordering on cheap) but not impossible. Others disagree... strongly.


As a part-time masochist who often enjoys badly-designed games more than they deserve, I'm curious to see how it stacks up against my expectations. Just need to finish Monster World IV first, which is a great old-school game that is much easier to recommend for people who like classic 16-bit games.

True. I had a certain awareness about the difficulty debate surrounding this game. I was actually on board with the game right up until the moment I checked the walkthrough. If the walkthrough had illuminated something that I had missed or perhaps something I was doing incorrectly, then I would have said 'oh well, lesson learned'. When I watched that video walkthrough, however, and finally seen what it was that I had to do in order to proceed, that's when I realised that this game is not for me. It's just far too arbitrary. I enjoy difficult games; I don't, however, like having my time wasted.
 
I look forward to hearing what you think about it.
 
P.S. Monster World IV is incredible!

[NWR_Neal]

It's for the reasons above why I likely won't get this. I'm all for a challenge, but everything I read about this makes it seem stupid hard and unfair.

[Lithium]

It's for the reasons above why I likely won't get this. I'm all for a challenge, but everything I read about this makes it seem stupid hard and unfair.

agreed, i was ready to spend the points on this until i actually read up on the discussion of this game.

[Luigi Dude]

Damnit, I was looking forward to the game too.  Seriously, what is it with a lot of these games that are suppose to be throwbacks to older games, pick the worst parts of classic gaming to emulate.  The sounds of this remind me of the end of Cave Story where you need a guide to reach the true final area because the game gives you no hint what you need to do to reach it, and then when you do reach the area, it's an insanely brutal place that doesn't bother to give you a save point before the fucking true final boss who's very hard himself.  This is what made me stop playing that game and I haven't bothered to play it since.  There is no fucking reason why there shouldn't have been a save point before the true final boss since the area leading up to him was already hard as **** and the final boss is brutal as well.  This is the bullshit the original Ninja Gaiden did where you had to repeat all three of the stage 6 levels if you die at the final boss instead of just starting at the last level before the boss like every other stage did.  It was bullshit back then and made me hate the Ninja Gaiden series, and it's bullshit that made me end up hating Cave Story as well.

This type of game design should have died in the 80's and it's sad to see La Mulana got ruined by this extremely archaic game design that nobody except an extremely small group of elitist gamers actually like.

[Pixelated Pixies]

This type of game design should have died in the 80's and it's sad to see La Mulana got ruined by this extremely archaic game design that nobody except an extremely small group of elitist gamers actually like.

It is such a shame. There's a great game in there somewhere, but it's buried beneath layers of impenetrable bulls**t. I mean come on. Invisible walkways?! Really?
 
 

[Jonnyboy117]

I spent nearly an hour wandering around the first ruins area and eventually got stuck in a deeper area with no way back to the entrance. Watched a very, very basic YouTube video about the beginning of the game and learned half a dozen extremely important things that would have taken me hours of brute force to figure out. Still, at least I was able to start a new game, play correctly from the start, and surpass my previous progress within ten or fifteen minutes. And now I have the warp ability, so the game has at least opened up for experimentation and exploration.

Games like this tend not to frustrate me because, either due to weakness of character or the call of other games, I will give in very quickly to Internet resources to help me proceed. Even if I rely on guides and hints pretty heavily to reach the end (see: Fez), at least I can emerge with a certain respect and understanding of what the designers accomplished, albeit without the satisfaction of solving it myself. Maybe this mindset comes from my academic research training, in which you quickly learn not to waste time redoing the hard work others have already cleared away, but rather absorb all their knowledge in order to push out in your own little way and do something truly unprecedented.

[broodwars]

Personally, in my brief hour or so with the game the thing that's frustrated me the most about it are the terrible jumping physics, where you stiffly jump straight up and kind of nudge your character in a given direction in the air.  Geez, I think I may have finally played a platformer with worse jumping than LittleBigPlanet, and I didn't think that was possible.

[Pixelated Pixies]

Personally, in my brief hour or so with the game the thing that's frustrated me the most about it are the terrible jumping physics, where you stiffly jump straight up and kind of nudge your character in a given direction in the air.  Geez, I think I may have finally played a platformer with worse jumping than LittleBigPlanet, and I didn't think that was possible.

Having enjoyed games like Castlevania 3 and Super Ghouls and Ghosts I was able to adapt pretty quickly to the momentum of the jumps. Not having full control in the air after a jump is something I'm ok with. You really have to commit to your jumps and be precise, but that at least seems fair to me (althougth I appreciate it's not to everyone's tastes). I still feel the larger issue with the game is it's puzzle design (or rather lack of design).

[Luigi Dude]

Having enjoyed games like Castlevania 3 and Super Ghouls and Ghosts I was able to adapt pretty quickly to the momentum of the jumps. Not having full control in the air after a jump is something I'm ok with. You really have to commit to your jumps and be precise, but that at least seems fair to me (althougth I appreciate it's not to everyone's tastes). I still feel the larger issue with the game is it's puzzle design (or rather lack of design).

Castlevania 3 and Super Ghouls and Ghosts

You just named two games I hate with a passion because of terrible jumping controls that should have died 20 years ago as well.  Saying La Mulana has controls similar to these makes me hate this game even more and I haven't even played it.  All these controls do is make the games way more frustrating then they need to be.

These types of jump controls are the equivalent to making a person in real life run a mile in less then 5 minutes with a 100 pound weight tied to their back.  Running the mile under 5 minutes is already difficult and so why would you put a 100 pound weight on someone trying to do it?

[Pixelated Pixies]

You just named two games I hate with a passion because of terrible jumping controls that should have died 20 years ago as well.  Saying La Mulana has controls similar to these makes me hate this game even more and I haven't even played it.  All these controls do is make the games way more frustrating then they need to be.

You say terrible jumping controls. I say they're different jumping controls. As with any mechanic there's examples of it being implemented intelligently and examples where it's been implemented poorly. In my opinion there are several examples of great games which have used a jump mechanic in which there is limited or no air control. As long as the game has been designed around the controls, then there's no reason why a jump mechanic of that sort can't work.
 
In my opinion there's no such thing as inherently bad mechanics, only bad design. I for instance hated the shake-to-roll mechanic in DKCR. That's not to say, however, that if a game was intelligently designed with that mechanic in mind that it couldn't be successful.
 
That doesn't of course change the fact that you didn't like Castlevania 3 or Super Ghouls & Ghosts, lol. It's worth thinking about though.

[Pixelated Pixies]

I am having some real hard swings with this game. There are parts of it I absolutely hate and sections which I enjoy thoroughly. I'm currently playing through the Mausoleum of Giants and am really having fun. The problem is that every so often you just hit a brick wall and it becomes the most frustrating and confusing game ever. I haven't been this torn since Skyward Sword.

[Pixelated Pixies]

I've heard people say that there are ample resources online to help with this game, but I'm finding it difficult to find any guides or FAQs. I prefer written guides over video walkthroughs as I find it quicker to get answers to specific problms by searching for particular terms.
 
Has anyone found any good online resources to help with this game?

[ClexYoshi]

Oh man, I smell me some La Mulanas!  Gather 'round children. It's time for auntie Clex to tell y'all about the birth of civilization!

... okay, maybe I won't go that deep into it, but I am a HUGE fan of this game, and am MORE than willing to be more helpful then Elder Xelpud, who has a very specific kind of love/hate relationship with Professor Kosugi.

Anyhow, I was a fan of this game's 2006 Freeware release, which many describe as a love letter to the MSX home PC systems in Japan. This bad boy Microsoft made PC system that never really broke out in the USA is where Konami made many of their early hits like Parodius, Snatcher, Metal Gear, Knightmare 2: The Maze of Galleous, and Antarctic adventure. The scrolling on the MSX was incredibly choppy and the sprites often time would be mono-colored. it's a distinct look and I think the NES looks a bit better. The original game had several references to these Konami made classics, even had a konami-like logo on the title screen, and had a Parodius and Snatcher mini-game you could play on the MSX compatable laptop Lemeza carried around with him.

That being said, you're going to really be floored when I tell you that much of the Puzzle design was DUMBED DOWN FOR THIS REMAKE!!! there's one particular one I can think of in the area that Pixelated Pixel mentioned that in the oiriginal was this really piss annoying math logic puzzle but now it's just a room where you jump on some switches to rotate a mural on a wall. It's also worth mentioning that in the original Up and Jump were the same thing, which is why Lemeza can't jump off of ladders as you'll probably discover later.  there's also been tweaks made to his jump. yeah, it used to be stiffer, and his attack speed was certainly slower. also, you could only save by having a computer program that you have to buy at the begining of the game, and Elder Xelpud could only save your game and not the special tablets you've been using to save instead.

The trade-off in this remake is that the traps are far more deadly and the Mini-bosses are actually major threats that sap your life bar pretty darned quickly, which was a rather rude awakening for me having come off of the original. there are changes they put in this remake just to screw with their established fanbase, including one particularly... confusing area that had it's puzzles completley changed for the sole purpose of messing with people who had played the original.

what you ARE going to discover is that La Mulana when mastered is a metroidvania that allows a ton of leaniency in how you go about conquering the ruins. your first couple of items will always be collected in the same order, but the game becomes incredibly freeform and you can have about 7 or 8 different things you could be doing to advancing towards clearing areas.

If you want my advice, DO NOT FIGHT BOSSES UNTIL YOU ABSOLUTLEY NEED TO! Bosses are not only very tough, but also a money sink due to how they are often impossible to get close to and require sub weapons to even have a prayer at beating them. you cwanna collect as much stuff as you can before you go at any of the bosses, especially sacred orbs and items that will improve your ability to move around.

As for a place to go for help... http://lamulana-remake.wikia.com/wiki/La-Mulana_Remake_Wiki Here's the La Mulana Wiki for the Remake... keep in mind they're still trying to get high res captures of the rooms uploaded and such, but this should be pretty helpful, although they will start spoiling some of the names of the various areas and such, so... yeah.

One last note for people on the fence on this one! http://agtp.romhack.net/project.php?id=lamulana Here's a download for the Freeware version! and uh... http://lamulana.wikia.com/wiki/Getting_Started here's some tips on getting going in the freeware version! there are some minor compatability issues with WIndows 7, I believe, so if you have trouble with that, just post and I'll see what I can do since uh... the page on how to fix those issues on the La Mulana Wiki is kinda down since most of the wiki got pulled down. D:

[KDR_11k]

The jumping is unusual but overall fine IMO but the momentum canceling platform edges seem like deliberate trolling, especially since spikes are often placed so that walking off a platform edge will make you fall onto them. It's just nonsense that you get air control if you hopped one centimeter before going over the edge but if you ran past the edge at full speed you fall down exactly vertically. I understand that diagonal jumps give different air control than vertical ones (you can go left and right from a vertical jump but with a diagonal you're limited to your original direction at various speeds) but going over a platform should at least preserve your running momentum even if it doesn't give you air control.

Overall I'm convinced the game's dick move central, I've seen similar amounts of trolling from IWBTG and Eryi's Action but those games have frequent checkpoints and are played for laughs (if you don't realize that you're supposed to laugh when IWBTG kills you in yet another completely nonsensical way it's not going to be enjoyable). But e.g. the lava area in La Mulana has random collapsing floors that pretty much amount to instant death (well, you can teleport back while you're being fried but the result is the same, being thrown back to a save point 5-10 screens back), the waterfall has bastard vultures that will knock you down to the bottom and can randomly be unavoidable and by now I treat activating any weight place like lighting a stick of dynamite. Anything good in plain sight is ALWAYS a trap.

As for the first boss unlock, I did activate the weight switches on both sides of the invisible walkway but still get shocked if I activate more than one tablet in the "history of giants" room. I did fight the first boss by bringing a red gem from the water area instead. I'll still need to get the entrance gem to make up for that but bosses don't give you items anyway so I'm not really in a hurry. Most minibosses amount to me simply damage tanking while punching away, they tend to have little enough health to die before you do and I really can't see a way to hurt them without jumping into them anyway (maybe I was missing subweapons but this worked too). I beat the Mausoleum boss with repeated pistol shots though, the hitbox on that is very screwy but ultimately I think I only wasted one bullet which was good enough IMO.

The puzzles are way nastier than even the most obscure parts of Metroid 1 (well, overall M1 is rather easy once you get going) or Bunny Must Die which can already get pretty obtuse. Mind you, I beat Braid with no help and got within 1 puzzle of getting all 64 cubes in Fez (well, 1 puzzle plus the stupid clock that I cannot be arsed to deal with) without help.

[Pixelated Pixies]

@KDR_11k
 
Yeah, I kind of agree with everything you've said. The lack of air control after walking off ledges is weird, the bosses can be cheap, and the puzzles can be far too obtuse. The dissappointing thing for me though was that there's a good game in there somewhere, otherwise I wouldn't have played it for as long as I did. The game can be really satisfying, but it's an example of a good game being undermined by unneccessary difficulty and opaqueness.

[KDR_11k]

Also I love how some save points can't be teleported to with the grail, e.g. the Twins Labyrinth. Especially with its various traps that lock you up and force you to teleport out. Currently that means teleporting two areas back and crossing them again just to get to the one place where I got screwed over by a wrong move.

[Pixelated Pixies]

Also I love how some save points can't be teleported to with the grail, e.g. the Twins Labyrinth. Especially with its various traps that lock you up and force you to teleport out. Currently that means teleporting two areas back and crossing them again just to get to the one place where I got screwed over by a wrong move.

That was super frustrating. I had the same problem with another area, I think it might have been the Moon Temple (you know the one where you're prevented from using weapons). From what I understand you can eventually find another piece of software which will let you warp to those Grail points, but I was never able to find it.

[KDR_11k]

The water surfacing physics deserve a special ****-you, truly awful. Plus enemies that knock you back in if you do manage to get out.

[Kytim89]

La Mulana, Ark of Sinners, Cave Story, and Retro City Rampage will be the last Wiiwae game that I buy.

[KDR_11k]

I'll get RCR on the Vita once that comes out here in Europe (portable > non portable, ALWAYS) but wasn't Ark of Sinners garbage?

[KDR_11k]

The more of them I fight the more I believe the bosses are just badly designed and that's why they're hard. You have very little range but not only are most bosses designed to keep you at range, their weak point is usually pretty far inside their hitbox. The six legged lion before the inferno cave in particular has a damage box so wide that you have to take damage in order to get in range to actually hit it. I'm currently at the water area boss and its only vulnerable phase comes with zero warning, it pops up and you have a split second to catch the wake and actually be catapulted up to its weakpoint. The distance between the point where you're catapulted too low to hit him and where you're catapulted into him and take damage seems to be less than a block wide and you have no time for fine adjustments, he could pop up from either side of the arena when he decides to do this, if you're on the other side you're just screwed because he covers that half of the screen in projectiles and even if you're close enough you will likely get hurt from a collision. And then there's his shoot-randomly-from-the-background attack that's about as hard to dodge as those things usually are, i.e. you practically have no chance and have to pray that he doesn't aim for you.

Oh and the path from the save point to him isn't dangerous but goes up a vertical shaft and is littered with enemies designed to knock you down to the bottom.


Then again is there any point in fighting the bosses? They don't seem to help with progressing, I guess you need to beat them to reach the finale but is there any reason not to wait until the end of the game before fighting them?

[Pixelated Pixies]

@KDR_11k
 
That boss drove me insane, lol.
 
I hated having to keep climbing up through that area to actually fight him again. It wasn't hard, it was just tedious. The game should have just had save points before all the bosses. That would not have lessened the challenge, it would simply have prevented time wasting. I have no problem banging my head against a brick wall as long as I can get back in to the action. Having to navigate through areas over and over again just to get back to the boss was a pain.
 
Overall though, I actually kind of enjoyed that boss battle. The mines he shoots out were cheap, especially because I didn't at that point have a double jump, but with a little luck his other phases offered enough opportunity to do damage that I was eventually able to defeat him. As with all the bosses in this game, however, it wasn't easy.
 
p.s. I found Flares to be quite useful during that battle.

[KDR_11k]

I have three flares remaining since I tried using the things in various places in the hope that they would solve puzzles that have hints related to showing lights (they never did). Guess I could buy more but they're 40 gold per box and I'm not sure they add enough damage to be worth the expense.

The other ankh I have active is the Sun Temple, I could try that one too for a change. Because I haven't been able to get the first red light I've been using the lights in areas they weren't meant for.