Topic: The Perrin Kaplan Interview

[Bill Aurion]

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Originally posted by: nemo_83
also camera issues could be assisted by online

So you are saying to make SSB an online-only title...YAY...(and I still don't see how this would work...)

[nemo_83]

who would make a game that only plays online?

im saying online really can open doors for Smash Brothers, you dont have to take those options if you dont want them

[Pale]

...  ignoring any discussion about online...

You are really just convinced that 3D is always better huh....  I can't fathom trying to take smash bros. to 3d... I also can't fathom comparing 64x4 minigameish fighting to Smash Bros.  You really just haven't played the game have you....

[PaLaDiN]

"If they are not capable of making Smash Brothers 3D and preserve the gameplay then they shouldn't make one on the Revolution."

I'm usually not a violent person, but stuff like this makes me want to kill people.

Why don't you go ahead and buy MK: Deception since that's apparently what you want Smash Brothers to be. In the meantime, please stop trying to turn the game into a pile of crap.

[nemo_83]

I offered Mario 64 x 4 as an example.  It doesnt mean take the literal gameplay and use it.  I was suggesting you imagine those screen shots as Smash Brothers and think about how much more interactive the 3D enviroments would be.  I am asking you to use your imagination to visualize playing a fully 3D Smash Brothers.

I don't believe that 3D is the solution for every game, but you can definately offer up the 3D enviroments and character models and still offer a 2D view, but that view would only work with online from the side, and as top down view without online.  Im not saying that the camera has to be behind the characters like in a platformer.  I prefer 2D camera views, but I feel that a 3rd dimension in Smash Brothers can only exapand the gameplay.  It gives twice the amount of space to fight in.  Why would you not want to be able to move up and down the screen as well as left and right and jump?

An example of 3D being bad for a game would actually be Mario Bros. which is so strongly based on the height of your jump that you don't need the extra space aloted by 3D to make things any harder.  Mario Kart on the other hand doesn't involve the vertical plane so much as it does your turning so it works best in 3D.  Another example of games that are good in 3D is Madden.  Another example of a game that is best in 2D, Castlevania.  

[nemo_83]

Quote
Originally posted by: PaLaDiN
"If they are not capable of making Smash Brothers 3D and preserve the gameplay then they shouldn't make one on the Revolution."

I'm usually not a violent person, but stuff like this makes me want to kill people.

Why don't you go ahead and buy MK: Deception since that's apparently what you want Smash Brothers to be. In the meantime, please stop trying to turn the game into a pile of crap.

Mortal Kombat is crap regardless of whether it is 2D or 3D.

Are you suggesting that Soul Calibur is crap?

[Bill Aurion]

No, we are suggesting that your ideas are...Soul Calibur is a great game, but once again you are making a horrible analogy...Soul Calibur is Soul Calibur...SSB is not Soul Calibur...Turning SSB into a SC-like game would be foolhardy, and not to mention impossible with said camera issues...  

[PaLaDiN]

"Are you suggesting that Soul Calibur is crap?"

No, I'm suggesting there already is a game that is what you want Smash Brothers to be.

Why don't you go out and play SC and leave Smash Brothers the way it is for those of us who like it.

[odifiend]

So how about that Ms. Kaplan...

[Djunknown]

We'll get to her in a minute.

It seems people are convinced that a 3d Smash bros would complicate things. Not so.

I urge you to play/read about Powerstone (and its superior sequel Powerstone 2) for Sega Dreamcast. Definately one of the most underated titles for that system. Simply put, it had the Smash-bros mentality, put in 3d. Its still easy to pick up and play, and guranteed to give you a rocking good time. I remember playing this title with friends for hours on end.

If the boys at HAL, or whoever's going to make part 3 (assuming its coming) take a few notes, they can take it 3d without complicating to the point of a Soul Calibur or Mortal Kombat.

As far as online, I won't touch that with 10 foot pole. By the time Nintendo (eventually) implements this fearture, we'll probably STILL argue about it.

NOW, about PK, its nice that she is a bit more forthcoming for a change. Maybe the Reggie mentality is starting to rub off on people...

My guess on why PK and Co aren't blasting Sony and MS is that Mr.Gosen(?) from their European Counterpart did such a thing. Remember his little tirade? Maybe the higher-ups weren't too happy with that? Just a thought.

EDIT: Typos and Grammar.

 

[PaLaDiN]

"I urge you to play/read about Powerstone (and its superior sequel Powerstone 2) for Sega Dreamcast. Definately one of the most underated titles for that system. Simply put, it had the Smash-bros mentality, put in 3d. Its still easy to pick up and play, and guranteed to give you a rocking good time. I remember playing this title with friends for hours on end."

But is it as good as Smash Bros?

Don't get me wrong... I played and enjoyed the game. But it's a step DOWN.  

[Pale]

You guys don't realize that part of what makes smash bros great is its 2d....  Can you imagine trying to pull off juggling combos from beneath with jumps in 3d?  I sure can't....Adding the third dimension of aim would make it next to impossible.  And Nemo, not to sound like a jack ass....but I still don't understand how the hell online comes into the number of dimensions??

"but that view would only work with online from the side, and as top down view without online"

What??  Online gameplay affects cameras how??  Are you not talking about online and just using the term to mean something about cameras??  Color myself confused.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

There's a big chance you'll sacrifice the depth of the combat system when moving into 3D.  Power Stone was great, but it lacked complexity for 1-on-1 situations.  Forcing all jumps to be mapped to a button and the control stick confined horizontal walking directions (like, well, Mario64) discards the sets of high/low moves that would've otherwise been in play in SSBM and many other fighters (almost all) which still cling onto a 2D-plane control scheme that's relative to 2 onscreen fighters, whose opposing positions create the axis with which your controls respond to.

PK's body and spirit was absorbed into the universal force we know as REGGIE.

PK is but one of Reggie's 7 deadly personalities.

[Bloodworth]

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but you can definately offer up the 3D enviroments and character models and still offer a 2D view,

Excuse me, but isn't this exactly what Smash Bros. is?  There were 3D environments and the character models are some of the most detailed on the system even today.

You must have only barely touched Melee to say the things you're saying.  There IS 3D dodging for instance.  You've clearly just mashed buttons and not gotten anywhere near the depth of the fighting system and the incredible improvements over the previous game.

[Mario]

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Originally posted by: Savior
""the launch itself was great""

No it wasnt... Luigis Mansion, Wave Race and Star Wars wasnt enough...  sure Smash Brothers came soon but it wasnt enough...

Hopefully the Revolution has a stronger launch lineup.

The launch lineup was awesome. Three words: Super Monkey Ball.

and to the Luigi's Mansion haters, screw you, the game is a classic!

[S-U-P-E-R]

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You guys don't realize that part of what makes smash bros great is its 2d.... Can you imagine trying to pull off juggling combos from beneath with jumps in 3d? I sure can't....Adding the third dimension of aim would make it next to impossible.

I'd like to point out the sick amount of juggling in Power Stone, SC2, Tekken, VF, MK: D, Project Justice, and pretty much every 3D fighter ever made. Nurrrrrrrrrrrr

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That's exactly the point...When you play online you ARE by yourself...There's absolutely NO "multiplayer atmosphere" when you play online...

That's not true, as long as you at least have voice chat. I got to talk to a good buddy I hadn't seen in years over a game of Guilty Gear. All the fighters out are still too laggy, though.

Also, I'm pretty sure what PK was getting at about the hardcore gamer part was that Nintendo wasn't exclusively focusing on them like a lot of folks seem to think they are. Like, for the third party stuff, GC got Ikaruga and VJ (at least initially) in the U.S. and nobody else did. But, you know, they're a company and all, they want the whole delicious pie, if at all possible.  

[KDR_11k]

Does Powerstone use levels similar to those found in SSBM, i.e. with lots of platforms and holes in between? Because I find platforming in 3d to be very cumbersome, especially when you add a static camera to the mix, since it's very hard to judge your position while airborne.
Also, if Powerstone already is SSB in 3d, why should SSB become 3d? That would just make it redundant.

And yes, online has the lag issue and until that is resolved a split-second-timing game like SSBM cannot be played online very well. Maybe if they seriously slowed down SSBM...

[S-U-P-E-R]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Does Powerstone use levels similar to those found in SSBM, i.e. with lots of platforms and holes in between? Because I find platforming in 3d to be very cumbersome, especially when you add a static camera to the mix, since it's very hard to judge your position while airborne.

Yeah, and it works. Better play it for yourself if you want to get a good feel for it. (hoep u got ten bux and a Dreamcast)

[PaLaDiN]

"Yeah, and it works. Better play it for yourself if you want to get a good feel for it. (hoep u got ten bux and a Dreamcast)"

It does work, but I doubt you can argue it works better than SSBM. I don't want SSBM to take a step down just because it works.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Yup.  The sheer variety in fighting "styles" is something we don't want to sacrifice in favor of walking in extra directions.

[S-U-P-E-R]

It works just as well. There aren't any problems with properly navigating platforms, mostly thanks to good camera angles and good control. And I think you can see the shadow under your guy, too, but it's been a while since I played it.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

What about aerial combat?

[Aussie Ben PGC]

Dammit, I know this has already been and gone, but I already wrote out this paragraph!

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That's exactly the point...When you play online you ARE by yourself...There's absolutely NO "multiplayer atmosphere" when you play online...

I'd have to disagree with that - from what I understand, similarly you'd be saying that when we respond on these forums, we're not interacting with each other.  And that's just not true.  I'm sure quite a few forum members know each other quite well, even if they've never met each other aside from online.  It's a very similar social aspect with Xbox Live, or at least, the experience has been for me.  When I played Burnout 3 with five other people, I was playing, and joking, and smack-talking (as I was losing miserably, but nevermind) with them.

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And to put SSB into 3d would be to take away the innovative way of "dying"...Health bars are a no-no, thanks...

Just one thing... when describing Nintendo's methods of gameplay, can we all try for some synonyms?  Some examples include "unique", "creative", "avant-garde", "inventive" and "ingenious".  Remember, it pays to enrich your word power!  (Or so Reader's Digest keeps telling me.)

[Bill Aurion]

I like the "innovative" more than those other ones, so no...

"When I played Burnout 3 with five other people, I was playing, and joking, and smack-talking (as I was losing miserably, but nevermind) with them."

It's just not the same with me...I need to see my friends around me to feel it...Otherwise, it's just like playing enhanced AI with speak capabilities...

[Spak-Spang]

Ok...since the topic has changed COMPLETELY from the point of the thread I will join in.

Super Smash Brothers, could be done in a 3D enviroment, and it could be very very fun, but what you would have is less of a combo rich fighter and more of a platform fighter...which is what Powerstone was.  

Powerstone was alot of fun, but it didn't have very much depth at all, because creating that depth meant much more complicated controls.  What you ended up getting was simple button press combos, and fullscreen combos, and not very precise platforming elements.  Not really a fighter, and not really a platformer.

I think Super Smash Brothers in 3D could be done easier and very fun, but it would also so dramatically change SSB that it wouldn't feel like SSB.  Just how Super Mario 64 is a Mario game, but it doesn't feel like a Mario game compared to the 2D worlds.

I personally wouldn't mind Nintendo trying different things with the king of the hill formula of SSB in 3D...but for revolution only.  And then for DS and eventually Gameboy Revolution (whatever) keep it 2D.  

Online is another situation completely.  I don't like online gaming, but creating a game online doesn't effect the playability of multiplayer at home, or single player.  Or shouldn't.