Topic: Matt's latest: "Revolution as a console is merely a vehicle for the new controller"

[odifiend]

"The police chase game is actually a driving game. I should have specified it as car chases. There's no getting out in beating up crooks. It's just chasing someone until you catch them or you can't continue to pursuit because your car is too wrecked."
Cough, Need for speed?  I didn't own the game and don't remember ever being the police but Hot Pursuit 2 definitely did what you proposed with out running cops.  If you're aware of the progression on NFS, that gameplay got more stale than Tony Hawk and they followed the trend of building your own character/car.  I do hear they expanded on cops chases in the new need for speed, though.  I know you only buy 1 game a year, but you might want to check that out...
Not to be a hater, Ian, but most of your game ideas would possibly make for a good bonus mode or unlockable in whatever game is similar to it in the industry right now.  I do admit that I have plenty of fighting games where the execution makes the difference, but calling your ideas new is a little out there.  

The Revolution could bring about truly new forms of gameplay just due to the change in interface.  Some games may emulate old style games just with the revmote, but we've long past the point of diminishing returns for new ideas relying on boost in hardware as the means to innovate - in fact hardware boosts and the expense of experimenting are rayifying the games to be the same old stuff with minor tweaks.  The industry is guilty of this, EA, especially and in recent times Nintendo has been guilty of this.  I loathe Mario Party since the second one and it has been my painful for me to watch Nintendo rehash that series, however even Metroid Prime one of my favorite 'new' series had a sequel incredible similar to itself.  This jadedness could very well have to do with the fact that I am getting older, but the Rev offers all developers with IPs the ability that Metroid Prime had without the talent of Retro and Nintendo - a way to take an established series in a fresh direction.

Additionally Nintendo seems to have made the price of admission low enough that new blood can get in to the industry - an industry that has many people dying to break in but is incredibly cost prohibitive.  Nintendo is taking steps to revolutionalize for everyone, so please stop spouting BS about this system only occuring because Nintendo feels they can't compete.

[UltimatePartyBear]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane

The police chase game is actually a driving game.  I should have specified it as car chases.  There's no getting out in beating up crooks.  It's just chasing someone until you catch them or you can't continue to pursuit because your car is too wrecked.

That sounds like A.P.B.  I really liked that game, way back in the mists of time when arcades wandered the earth.  You'd start each level with a quota for ticketing people for a certain offense.  You'd cruise along in traffic, and when you saw someone you'd line up behind them and turn on your siren.  They'd pull over and you'd move on.   When you met the quota you'd receive an A.P.B. about a criminal on the run, then he'd zoom past you and you'd begin a high speed pursuit.  These guys had to be run off the road before they'd stop.  They had a tendency to just barely beat trains at crossings, so you'd get smashed if you were right behind them.  Some of them liked to throw dynamite, too.  After you caught them, you'd have to rapidly hit the siren button to choke a confession out of them before the chief caught you.  That last part would be pretty interesting on the Rev.  You lost when you got too many demerits, for things such as running into other cars without the siren on, wrecking your cruiser, or getting caught choking an arrestee.  Ah, good times.

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I thought of an idea for the space battle game.  I wonder if the motion sensor of the remote works when the shell is attached.  If so imagine a wavebird with motion control.  Hold it in front of you and it's kind of a like a wheel for a plane or in this case space ship.  All the extra buttons are there for different weapons and such.  The only problem with this is that after a couple minutes your arms would get tired and think that's a big problem with the remote.  I see the potential arm fatigue from swinging this thing all over the place as a big issue.

First of all, your space battle game strongly reminds me of X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter, right down to switching to one of the AI controlled fighters when yours was destroyed.  Also, I don't think arm fatigue would be a lasting problem.  It's a hurdle to overcome, but you'll build up your arm strength pretty quickly if the game's fun enough to keep you playing.  I know that from my time in my school marching band, not to mention various light gun games.

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I also don't like how the look of the remote is because it is unintimidating to non-gamers.  Controllers should be functional and comfortable.  I don't like it when marketing dictates the shape of a controller.  How is Nintendo making it look like a TV remote any different than MS putting that big X logo on their controller?

That question seemed like a non sequitur of epic proportions at first, but if I go with the meaning I think you intended, the difference is that the X is simple branding, while the TV remote shape is designed to appeal.  No one would look at the Xbox controller and say, "Wow!  It has an X on it!  I want to play with it!"  No one at Microsoft expects that of it, either.  Nintendo designed their controller to attract interest, which suggests that ease of use and comfort were top priorities as well.  We'll have to wait a while to find out whether they succeeded.  

[animecyberrat]

>>Consumers are plain stupid. Why do you think 50 cents game sold over 1 million units across<<



I am only going to reply to this and thats it everything else gets addressed nicely. That my friend is matter of opion. Gamerankins is also a matter of OPINION in thier OPINION teh game wasnt good, yet in some peopels OPINIONS it was the SH!7


I for one have yet to play the game but as a 50 cent fan I am planning on giving it a try becaus eit does look interesting TO ME. You shoudlnt call someone stupid cuz they like soemthing you dont thast phukking ignorant and childish.  

[Strell]

I think it can be agreed to that a game that is A) an obvious rip off of a popular franchise, B) is poorly done, and C) is using a popular media figure to boost its sales is a crappy premise, period.  The game scored low across the board.  If it were called "Urban Gunners" or something without Fiddy's dumbass plastered all over it, no one would have cared.  

The fact is that Fiddy was used to sell it to kids.  And this is bolstered by the fact that he went on record to tell parents "it is perfectly okay for young children to play this, just explain it to them."  I saw kids - probably 8-14 - at no less than 3 Gamestops asking for this game.  Not only that, but their parents were with them and agreed to get it.  The game was advertised left and right in the store.  I doubt the employees cared whether or not the kid was "mature" enough to play it, and I can gaurantee the parents didn't.  That is absolutely infuriating to me as a gamer because it means I'll have to put up with bullshit from the general public about the general impression of gamers.  

Yea, ok.  The game is trash, period.  It's selling out and appealing to people based on weak reasons.

Finally, the denizens of the interweb need to learn this phrase:  OPINIONS CAN BE WRONG.  Somehow a few years ago, I guess everyone took a philosophy 101 class collectively and learned that opinions are merely one's own projection regarding information, and decided "well damn, that means they can't be wrong if they are all relative!"  

That's stupid, ok?  And me calling it stupid is a fact.  Opinions can be wrong.  One guy might have an opinion that it's ok to stalk 12 year olds in middle school.  Another guy might like to drag people into his car and murder them.  These are extreme examples but it illustrates the point well enough.  This "omfg it is relative so it is okay" nonsense needs to be purged from the intertron.  It's pathetic, and people hide behind it like its an ironclad defense to say whatever the hell you want.  

I gather that I'll receive word that this post is misguided, and that's fine, but I've had my say and I don't need to defend it any longer.  

[animecyberrat]

yur still wropng, some peopel LIEK the game because 50 centis in it. I know peopel who got True crime JUST CUZ Snoopp was in it, and tehres nothign wrong with that. YOU say the game sucks, but someone might actualy like it. your full of it when you say Opinions can be wrong, especialy when discusing VIDEO GAMES!. games are all subjective, to someone a game could be crap to someone esle that same game can be good. IN My Opinion I thought the Sega Genesis was FAR SUPERIOR to the SNES, based on THE AGMES I PLAYED. BUT otehrs here will argue thats not true.


I thought Stat Fox Adventures was a fantastic game, and I HAVE FACTS to back it up, but others say itw as crap and they rpesent their FACTS to back it up, NO Opinions is right or wrong they are all OPINIONS, purelsy subjective.  

[Ian Sane]

"The revmote detects motion on a true 3-d plane with incredible sensitivity...the first time anything like that has been offered on any games console. And that's 'not as precise'?"

An analog stick has more sensitivity than a d-pad.  But in situations where you just want left, right, up & down without paying attention to that sensitivity a d-pad is better because it's just simple on and off.  There's no room of error for the game to interpret things incorrectly because you thought you were doing one thing and actually were a little off.  I think that sort of thing would be worse with the remote.  In a situation where how you move the remote is exactly how the character responds then the sensitivity will be welcome.  But if you don't want that level of sensitivity then it's going to be more imprecise because there's a higher chance of things being misinterpretted.

"That question seemed like a non sequitur of epic proportions at first, but if I go with the meaning I think you intended, the difference is that the X is simple branding, while the TV remote shape is designed to appeal."

I'll admit they're not exactly the same.  But I would still consider designing a controller in a certain shape to appeal goes against the basic rules of controller design.  A controller is a tool and it should be designed as such.  I don't think how a controller looks should ever be part of the controller design process.  It should all be about button placement and ergonomics and stuff like that.

[Smash_Brother]

The Rev offers:

-Wifi out of the box with a focus on free online gaming
-LAN multiplayer with 1 disc
-Full DVD support
-Roughly twice the power of the GC
-Online downloadable games from all previous generations, possibly including Sega games as well
-Backwards compatibility with GC games
-The lowest price by far

That is reason enough to buy one for me. The new controller doesn't even factor into the equation so I fail to see how it's a "vehicle" for the new controller when it has so many of its own merits without the controller.

[Strell]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I don't think how a controller looks should ever be part of the controller design process.  It should all be about button placement and ergonomics and stuff like that.

Right, because those things aren't related in any way.

[BlkPaladin]

You know I'm probally going to be grilled for this. But considering the begining of this thread, I have one thing to say. At least the Revolution is a vehicle for something different than the Xbox 360 or PS3. Because right now it just looks like they are just souped up version of their last forms. (the HD support for the PS2 if new I think). With all three you cannot play the new console games on.

And as for the shell add on, there is no reason why the motion sensor shouldn't work.

[MaryJane]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
The Rev offers:

-Wifi out of the box with a focus on free online gaming
-LAN multiplayer with 1 disc
-Full DVD support
-Roughly twice the power of the GC
-Online downloadable games from all previous generations, possibly including Sega games as well
-Backwards compatibility with GC games
-The lowest price by far

That is reason enough to buy one for me. The new controller doesn't even factor into the equation so I fail to see how it's a "vehicle" for the new controller when it has so many of its own merits without the controller.

same here except i thought the dvd support was an add-on? something change and i didn't notice?

[Smash_Brother]

It might be, not sure, but that wouldn't be my defining reason for buying the console one way or another.

It means more capacity for games so I'm happy with that as well.

[IceCold]

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The police chase game is actually a driving game. I should have specified it as car chases. There's no getting out in beating up crooks. It's just chasing someone until you catch them or you can't continue to pursuit because your car is too wrecked.

Sorry, but that just sounds like the Police Chase mode in Burnout 2 to me.. I'd hardly call it a new idea, or innovating with the traditional controller. And think of how boring that game would get after a while. You can have all the upgrades and tracks you want, but a police chase as an entire game?

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I also don't like how the look of the remote is because it is unintimidating to non-gamers. Controllers should be functional and comfortable.

First, how the hell do you know if it is or is not comfortable? None of us have tried it yet, so for all we know it could be the most comfortable controller ever. About functionality, as others have mentioned, the motion sensing gives unlimited functionality.. And for the developers who are too lazy to try to innovate, there's the shell.. And I really don't care what my controller looks like.

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I am only going to reply to this and thats it everything else gets addressed nicely. That my friend is matter of opion. Gamerankins is also a matter of OPINION in thier OPINION teh game wasnt good, yet in some peopels OPINIONS it was the SH!7

Well, I agree with you that the reviews ARE opinions of the games. However, there are measurable things in games. Fluid control scheme. Good graphics. Varied and innovative gameplay. Those are a must for games to receive high scores, and they can be measured. After that, it is opinion. But not every game gets past that stage. In the 50 cent case, all the reviews said it had terrible controls. They couldn't even shoot where they wanted to sometimes, since the aiming was so bad. And wasn't this the game where there was a glitch that made it unbeatable? The fact is that this game was rushed and it was trying to capitalise on a famous mainstream icon. If you get it and enjoy it, congratulations to you. If you find it fun, then that's perfectly fine. But reviews do have some credence.

I guess what I am trying to say is: Never boost right before a jump in Fire Field: Undulation..  

[Plugabugz]

I'm going to say what i say in every thread because i have yet to see a viable solution.

Revolution may be a solution to an initially Japanese problem, but it still, still doesn't fix europe. The controller and console may as well be made of the moon and it'll still be made into coconut flavoured cheese and sold for £200 by NOE.

[Ian Sane]

"Sorry, but that just sounds like the Police Chase mode in Burnout 2 to me.. I'd hardly call it a new idea, or innovating with the traditional controller."

Fine the police idea isn't that new.  I thought of it like ten years ago and I haven't played every game in existence so I can't help it if coincedently a game I've never played features a similar idea.  At the very least I didn't see some other game and said "me too" and made a virtual clone of it like many devs do.  That's probably the biggest problem with gaming and it has existed from the beginning when literally ever game was a carbon copy of Pong.  I still think new ideas are possible with the old controllers and a lot of it has to do with the attitude of the developer when he makes the game.  He should have an idea and then think of how to implement it not go "hey this genre is popular" or "this formula works, let's copy that".  That problem isn't going to be fixed with a new controller.  The attitude and the actual game content is what drives new ideas.  If Nintendo makes brand new stuff for the new controller then it'll make a difference. If they just make Mario Party with the Remote!! then it won't do anything.  Right now they're in "milk every franchise for all it's worth" mode so the problem's not going to go away.

[jasonditz]

the police idea put me more in mind of APB... that'd be a much more fun thing to try to update for the modern era.

[Smash_Brother]

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That problem isn't going to be fixed with a new controller. The attitude and the actual game content is what drives new ideas. If Nintendo makes brand new stuff for the new controller then it'll make a difference. If they just make Mario Party with the Remote!! then it won't do anything. Right now they're in "milk every franchise for all it's worth" mode so the problem's not going to go away.

Two indie devs have surfaced with plans for the Rev and have made it into gaming news.

Their plans mean nothing on their own, but the fact that they're here and that they're drawn to the Rev is huge. It means that the Rev is inspiring new ideas and encouraging new developers to come forward and try their hand at developing. If you hate what Nintendo does with their franchises, you'll love what these new devs can offer because they're fresh, new and as of yet uninfluenced by archaic entities like EA and Ubisoft.

I'm not worried about what Nintendo does with their franchises. First, I think they understand that they need to be serious with them this time around. The cube was like a lost cause from the start, but Nintendo is doing great things with the DS and it sounds like they're doing the same with the Rev.

Second, the 3rd party games on the DS have been good enough that they can actually carry the system when Nintendo doesn't have new games out. That's an advantage that most consoles haven't been able to boast for a while now.

I think Nintendo chose the right path. The DS is a shining example of how something new and innovative can bring the gaming industry back to life and I would not be surprised if they did the same thing with the home console market.

[Dirk Temporo]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Sorry, but that just sounds like the Police Chase mode in Burnout 2 to me.. I'd hardly call it a new idea, or innovating with the traditional controller."

Fine the police idea isn't that new.  I thought of it like ten years ago and I haven't played every game in existence so I can't help it if coincedently a game I've never played features a similar idea.

Need For Speed: Hot Pursuit AND Hot Pursuit 2 were both pretty much completely about that. How do you miss two incredibly popular games like that?

[IceCold]

And I thought you played Burnout 2? Oh well, it's insignificant. I want to say, however, that I do like your other ideas, and they would make good games if fleshed out. And I guess all we can do is wait to see how the controller is implemented in games like yours.. it might even make them better.  

[nemo_83]

It appears the megaton is back...

[wandering]

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An analog stick has more sensitivity than a d-pad. But in situations where you just want left, right, up & down without paying attention to that sensitivity a d-pad is better because it's just simple on and off. There's no room of error for the game to interpret things incorrectly because you thought you were doing one thing and actually were a little off. I think that sort of thing would be worse with the remote. In a situation where how you move the remote is exactly how the character responds then the sensitivity will be welcome. But if you don't want that level of sensitivity then it's going to be more imprecise because there's a higher chance of things being misinterpretted.

Well, yeah. How many 3d games have you played where you wanted the movement to be controlled with a d-pad instead of an analogue stick?

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I'll admit they're not exactly the same. But I would still consider designing a controller in a certain shape to appeal goes against the basic rules of controller design. A controller is a tool and it should be designed as such. I don't think how a controller looks should ever be part of the controller design process. It should all be about button placement and ergonomics and stuff like that.

Yeah, but if they designed the controller with only comfort in mind, you'd be complaining about how Nintendo is still stuck in their own little world and still refuses to try to appeal to the average consumer. For my part, while I want the controller to be comfortable, I recognize that it is extremely important that Nintendo sell this controller to as many people as possible. An iconic shape can do that.

I like your game ideas, BTW.

[Ceric]

Rumor has it the the remote was originally just a Cube add on.  If memory server Nintendo wanted to get a 10 or so year run out of the cube.  But things happenned and the design didn't appeal to the market right so they had to redesign.  To be competitive they also needed to show people that it's also beefier.  If someone else has posted these thoughts I'm sorry.

[Smash_Brother]

I remember Nintendo mentioning how they wanted to do a good many addons for the cube but it seems the system wars and the cube's sluggishness pushed them out of that mindset.

They needed a new edge to REALLY push the concept. Trying to "reinvent" the GC wouldn't have gone over well. The amount of effort it would have taken to get people to accept these new ideas - controller, downloadable games, SD reader, etc. - on the GC would have been greater than releasing a new console.

[Ian Sane]

"Need For Speed: Hot Pursuit AND Hot Pursuit 2 were both pretty much completely about that. How do you miss two incredibly popular games like that?"

They're EA games.  I pretty much intentionally try to avoid them.

"And I thought you played Burnout 2?"

I have but it's only been at a friend's house so I'm not really familiar with all the modes available.