Topic: does innovative mean wreckless design?

[Darkheart]

Recently it's been brought up to my attention that the DS is getting hit with cuts and insults because the games out for it do not all use all of the new innovative features assigned to the system.  Does that mean everyone wants a game that uses the touch screen, the wifi, one cart download, mic, etc etc?  IF so does that also mean developers are going to have to force themselves to add a feature in the gameplay that uses the mic or some other innovative feature? Personally, i dont want all of the features to be forced into a game, and if a game doesnt use any of them at all, but decides to use the DS's ,multiple screens, better graphics engine, and better sound, that the gameboy advance cant offer why not let them do it?  There are develpoers probably that have ideas for games but know that it could not be achieved on the gameboy so they move to the DS to accomplish it, is that so bad? Or to have a game developed for the DS, must it have innovative features built into the game?

I dunno just a thought

[kirby_killer_dedede]

Well all the people criticizing it should probably consider that there are are only going 11 games on the market right now...

Seriously, can you honestly say that any launch title has been the most innovative on that system?  Or the prettiest?  Or the most fun?  Or the best-sounding?  Or the most complex?  Or the most challenging?  The first batch of games are usually slow for any system.

[Spak-Spang]

I would like to answer the broader question you present in your title.  Does innovation mean wreckless design?

This is an interesting question and does require examination.  

When you step back in time and look at the truly innovative games throughout the course of gaming you find a trend that many of the unique games have aspects of bad game design, or wreckless design.

Think of any unique game experience.  Something you loved or hated, but you had to admit it was something innovative.  Now examine the game and tell me if there was some wreckless elements to the game.  I bet you for the most part you will find something that feels rushed or not quite right.   Sega one of the most innovative companies out there is a perfect example.  Seaman, Jet Grind Radio, Space Channel 5:  they all have elements where the game is flawed.  

The reason for this is time.  When you are creating something new it takes alot of time to balance something that has never been done before.  It takes time to figure out what works, and what doesn't...once that balance is struck the deadline for the game racing by, and you soon realize that the game design becomes lacking.  

However, when enough time is given to innovative projects you find that it all comes together very nicely and the game becomes a classic.

Now look at the DS lineup.  The DS system has a double edged blade to it.  Nintendo has been toting the potential of this "wonder" system.  How it contains everything a developer could possible want in one little package.  Nintendo screamed,  "New","Innovative", "Revolutionary", "Industry reviving" ideas and game designs would be possible with this system.  So the system comes out and developers are faced with this challenge to deliver that experience with the first games.  All of the launch games suceed atleast alittle bit to show some of what is possible, but nothing lives up to the hype.  

Nintendo needs to show that its ok to make a game that doesn't follow this myth about the system.  Once that does game design can look at what is available with the system and choose what really helps the game and what doesn't.

[Ian Sane]

"Seriously, can you honestly say that any launch title has been the most innovative on that system?"

Super Mario Bros and Super Mario 64.  At the time of their releases there was not really anything like them available and they both greatly influenced nearly all games that came out afterwards.

I don't think that every DS game should use every feature.  I don't even think every DS game has to use any of the DS exclusive features.  I have no problem with a DS game merely using the d-pad and buttons and only one screen.  The reason a lot of critics are bashing the DS launch lineup is because Nintendo promised "new types of gaming" and then released as their sole launch title Super Mario 64 with sh!ttier controls.  It's not that every DS game doesn't use all the features.  It's that Nintendo promised some innovative stuff and so far hasn't delivered.  It doesn't help that in my opinion the DS American launch lineup was lame to begin with with most of the games being crappy EA junk.

I think the DS launch lineup sucks overall.  I'm not going to form a negative bias against the DS because of it nor am I going to make up excuses for the current lineup.  A lot of people are taking one of those positions and I think it's because they're letting the system wars mentality affect their judgement.  A lot have picked either the DS or PSP as the "winner" and thus are going to overlook or overanalyize the DS launch lineup's faults.

[kirby_killer_dedede]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Seriously, can you honestly say that any launch title has been the most innovative on that system?"

Super Mario Bros and Super Mario 64.  At the time of their releases there was not really anything like them available and they both greatly influenced nearly all games that came out afterwards.

I don't think that every DS game should use every feature.  I don't even think every DS game has to use any of the DS exclusive features.  I have no problem with a DS game merely using the d-pad and buttons and only one screen.  The reason a lot of critics are bashing the DS launch lineup is because Nintendo promised "new types of gaming" and then released as their sole launch title Super Mario 64 with sh!ttier controls.  It's not that every DS game doesn't use all the features.  It's that Nintendo promised some innovative stuff and so far hasn't delivered.  It doesn't help that in my opinion the DS American launch lineup was lame to begin with with most of the games being crappy EA junk.

I think the DS launch lineup sucks overall.  I'm not going to form a negative bias against the DS because of it nor am I going to make up excuses for the current lineup.  A lot of people are taking one of those positions and I think it's because they're letting the system wars mentality affect their judgement.  A lot have picked either the DS or PSP as the "winner" and thus are going to overlook or overanalyize the DS launch lineup's faults.

Well, I suppose you could consider Super Mario Bros...but, though SM64 was cool and all, I think it was topped in just about every category by GoldenEye, later in that generation.

[thepoga]

there's already an editorial on this subject.

http://www.planetgamecube.com/editorials.cfm?action=profile&id=128

and on dictionary.com it says the definition of innovative is "being or producing something like nothing done or experienced or created before."
So the answer to your rhetorical question is no. : )

People shouldn't be totally against a do-all game though. But like darkheart said, it should not be forced.

[KDR_11k]

You know what I'm thinking? I'm thinking the DS should have had a Kururin title for launch. The GBA did and look how it's selling! (yes, I know that logic is flawed but I want my Kururin DS!)

[Spak-Spang]

Did somebody actually say Goldeneye topped Mario 64 as an innovative game, or actually say that Goldeneye was a better game then it?

I understand difference of opinion, but lets look back at history.

Mario 64 defined and created the standard for 3D platformers today.  In fact, replaying the game with the DS shows you that it still hasn't been topped in design and functionality.  It was that advanced of game design.

Goldeneye was a FPS that succeeded in creating a living breathing world that captures the Bond universe perfectly.  It was exceptionally balanced...but it did not create new experiences in gaming.  It just proved that consoles can do FPS as good as computers.

[couchmonkey]

*Nods to Ian and Spak-Spang* Super Mario 64 was very innovative.  It took me from being mildly interested in the Nintendo 64 to NEEDING one as soon as possible.  There may have been some better games on the N64, but very few were more innovative.

Super Mario 64 was a turning point in gaming for me, if that game had never existed, I might just be a casual gamer by now, but Super Mario 64 showed me that new videogame systems didn't have to just crank up the graphics and sound every few years.  New systems could do things I had never seen before!  Since then innovation has become very important to me.  It does usually result in slightly flawed, "wreckless" design, but as long as the game is still fun and playable, I'm willing to put up with that in return for a fresh experience.

Just how flawed innovative games are depends on experience, time and money.  Pikmin actually turned out extremely well.  It was short and a lot of people dislike the time limit, but I felt that the Pikmin experience was virtually perfect.  Future Tactics turned out much more flawed, but the flaws were still small enough that I was willing to overlook them for an original game experience.

DS has faced criticism because it has failed to innovate so far.  I don't think every game needs to use the features, but at this point only one or two games have delivered on Nintendo's promise that this system would be really innovative.  I think Nintendo is going to deliver the true DS experience with some of its future games like Yoshi's Touch and Go and Wario Ware, but at this point the system hasn't delivered much innovation.

[kirby_killer_dedede]

I'ts an opinion, guys, jeez...don't go all Bill on me...

[Spak-Spang]

Kirby:  That is pretty funny all Bill on yeah.

Bill is definately the Champion of all Nintendo here.  

I kinda respect him for his loyalty though.

[Plugabugz]

The system itself is new. Treat it as a child: you never know it's full talents until he/she has grown up.

[Spak-Spang]

Another problem is the term innovate

When people think of innovation they think of a completely new experience.  Something that has never been done before.  Within games it could be new gameplay experiences, or themes or style play, or even just the control of the game.

We have heard that the DS is the "developers system" so we just expect too much.  We expect all the doors to be open and every idea to be golden.  Well it just doesn't ever work like that.

In actuality there was quite a few interesting and innovative games on the DS from the start.

Mario 64 DS:  Hey it gave us analog control using the touch screen.  This will become the premere way to play 3D platformers.

Metriod Prime First Hunt:  Gave true mouse style control on a console system using the touch screen.  Once again This will be used regularly on FPS on the DS.

Madden DS:  Touch Screen play calling may not seem like much, but with the inclusion of wireless play it has sped up the play for mulitplayer matches.  Next year may be even better with the potential to draw your own plays.

Picto Chat:  Wireless chat on the go.  Awesome.


Sure none of these ideas are groundbreaking, but they are innovative for gaming.  They haven't been done before...they just are not the WOW factor we were hoping for.  

In the coming years Nintendo and other developers will come up with even more creative and innovative ideas.  But as more and more ideas are created they will slowly seem to be less and less innovative.

[Bill Aurion]

Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
Kirby:  That is pretty funny all Bill on yeah.

Bill is definately the Champion of all Nintendo here.  

I kinda respect him for his loyalty though.

Damn straight!

But seriously, I'm going to go ahead and agree with Spang(and others if they said it, I'm too lazy to read all this!) that the term "innovate" is used way too harshly...You can't expect every game to be a completely new gaming experience...It's just not possible...But patience is key here, and we game because it's fun, right?  Does a game need to be truely innovative for it to be fun?  Of course not, so just sit tight and don't get your pantsu in a bunch...

[Ian Sane]

"Mario 64 DS: Hey it gave us analog control using the touch screen. This will become the premere way to play 3D platformers."

Considering that every review of Mario 64 DS complained that the touch screen controls are complete crap compared to the original analog stick design I really doubt that will become the "premier" way to play 3D.  Touchscreen analog controls are a workaround for N64 ports on a system without an analog stick.  No one with any sort of intelligence would consider Mario 64 DS's controls to be superior to the original.

This is the sort of stuff that ultimately fuels negative DS bias.  Not only is Nintendo making all these promises of innovation (and so far without a released title that fulfills this promise) but a lot of their hardcore fans are hyping up a bunch of nothing.  You don't have to defend everything Nintendo does.  Super Mario 64 DS is not innovative AT ALL.  It's a quick 'n' dirty port to provide something for a rushed American launch.

There's nothing wrong with saying "yeah the DS lineup is pretty lame right now but there's some good stuff on the way and I think the system has tons of potential".  But don't say "the DS is the best system EVER".  Fans worshiping everything Nintendo does is partially why there's an anti-Nintendo bias in the first place.

[Bill Aurion]

"Fans worshiping everything Nintendo does is partially why there's an anti-Nintendo bias in the first place."

Ahahaha, so it's OUR fault...What faulty logic that is, as anti-Ninty bias extends way past any "worship" going on...

[Spak-Spang]

Yeah compared to the original game the controls are not as precise, but when you need to do analog control on the DS the touch screen is the only way to do it...and its a great thing that Nintendo went out there and showed developers they could do it.

Mario 64 DS touch Screen control is pretty darn fantastic, its not perfect, but its quite a feat, and it is innovative.  Its innovative in the sense that it took an input device and used it in a rather unconventional means.  In fact, the analog control is the only way I can play the game.  It feels very natural to me, and much easier than the D-PAD controls.  For the DS using the touch Screen will be fantastic for 3D platformers.  We really just need to wait for a 3D platform designed for the touch screen controls from the ground up.  For Mario 64 DS it works very well until you get to moves that require quick movements on the touch screen.  

I don't defend everything Nintendo does.  I defend much of it, not because Nintendo is flawless, but because when Nintendo makes mistakes people amplify that mistake by 10X.

Nintendo bashing has become so hip and trendy its completely and utterly pointless.

I am standing by the DS.  Its not a perfect launch, but its a pretty solid launch.  It has delivered some decent games, and its crowning achievement is a portable version of Mario 64 that is hands down a better game than the original.  There is also nothing wrong with saying that the DS launch lineup is pretty good.  I would like to point out most launch games for a system only get about average reviews because of the rush to launch developers have.  So we don't have perfect 10 games.  We do have a playable Madden, a decent racing game, a Fantastic Mario game, and a few other average games that many people will find enjoyable to play.



 

[GoldenPhoenix]

I might as well jump in too, for SUper Mario 64 being a poor port, I sure am having tons of fun! It makes me believe that you have not played any poor ports if you state SM64 DS is one. Just because it doesn't have the joystick does not automatically make it a poor port! The game is a great remake of a classic game, are the controls better for N64? Yes, but that still didn't detract from me playing the game and finally getting all 150 stars. I had a blast, even if the control pad was tougher to use, there was enough new additions to this game that it provided a breath of fresh air for individuals like myself that played the heck out of the N64 SM64. Now could the DS launch have been better? Sure, but personally I do not regret any of the time I've spent playing the Nintendo DS, I've had hours upon hours of addictive fun so far with not only Mario 64 DS but also Feel the Magic, which is one game that does take advantage of most of the DS's features. So I guess if Mario 64 DS is a shoddy port, I guess I have a great time with shoddy ports then (even though it has enough new material to easily place it in the remake category).

[xyber_hitman]

I do have so say that hearing everyone get the stars in the game is making me want to bust out the N64 again and start playing Mario 64 so I can hear the sound effect of the women singing.....  You go up on the roof and get yoshi?   Oh yea....I really hope they ad Ocenra of time or something good like that....loved that game

[Ian Sane]

I think it's rather fitting that after I post that Nintendo fans need to stop defending everything Nintendo does and making up excuses for the DS that people respond by defending Super Mario 64 DS's controls as if it's some great idea that Nintendo is so innovative for doing.

"Yeah compared to the original game the controls are not as precise, but when you need to do analog control on the DS the touch screen is the only way to do it"

Only because Nintendo didn't put an analog stick on the DS in the first place.  There's no reason for the game to use the touchscreen for analog controls when it's the first DS game and Nintendo could have designed the DS to have an analog stick.  If the touch screen is the only way to do it then Nintendo should have put more thought into the DS design.  That's like saying in-game cutscenes on the N64 was an innovative idea.  No it wasn't.  It was a workaround for a design oversight.

I mean I can make a car that steers with two left & right analog buttons and you could call it innovative.  But it's still an inferior design.  Just because something is unique and different doesn't mean it's any good.

[Spak-Spang]

Ian Sane:  Hey, I don't mean to continue debating.  Ok, maybe I do alittle, but its all in good fun.

There are several reason's Nintendo could have decided not to use an analog stick for the DS.

1)They wanted to make a more affordable product.  
2)They wanted to save space on the system.  An analog stick can't be used as a digital stick very easily. Having both control devices would clutter the system.
3)Nintendo knew that the touch screen could simulate similar controls, and they wanted to highlight the touch screen control not analog.
4)They may not have been able to keep the quality of analog control Nintendo is known for with a portable system.  (Nintendo really is the only system that has the most precise analog controller of all the systems.  Even a Fresh N64 controller seems better then the PS2, and Xbox.)
5)Keep It Simple.  When the original design of the DS came out, they weren't even thinking about having a D-Pad.  They wanted to keep it just the touch screen.  They decided to make it alittle more compatable with traditional games, but they didn't want to go overboard with controls and buttons.  Its a nice compromise.


Ok.  Those are some reasons.

But your complaints are exactly what I am talking about.  Nintendo decided to do something innovative with the DS.  They cut the safety net and created a console that is much more focused on innovation.  

We also ask Nintendo to step up to the plate and show ideas to other developers.  Show them that Nintendo is leading the way on how to create games using all the features for the system.  

Out of the Box, Nintendo showed developers wireless gaming is important to the DS with the Metroid Demo.  They even showed developers how to design the controls with the Metroid demo.  

Next with Mario Nintendo demonstrated a solution to analog control on the DS.  Using Mario 64 DS, they are making the groundwork for gamers to get comfortable with this means of control games in this fashion.

And when you look at Nintendo's other games launching for the DS you see Nintendo is continuing to lead by example for other developers.  

So, I say cut Nintendo some slack.  Everything news story going on about the DS right now is extremely positive.

[foolish03]

The controls in mario 64 are nowhere near perfect(I dont believe anyone stated it was), but they work.  They work pretty damn well too.  Like I said before there not without flaws.  From the way you speak you sound like you havent even experianced the controls in mario.  I could be wrong but thats the impression I get.  The DS launch titles are a bit lacking, but what can you expect.  They had about 6 or 7 months development time(not including nintendo).  The only interesting and worth while titles to get right now are mario and feel the magic, imo.  I havent played the others so I really cant say if there good or not.  Ill just have to wait and see what other games developers come out with.  

It seems people up the standards when it comes to nintendo.  If nintendo doesnt meet these standards It gets blown totally out of proportion.

[Bloodworth]

You want to know what makes touch screen control so impressive?  Over Thanksgiving, a thirty year old woman who I've never seen play a videogame before was playing Feel the Magic every chance she could get for hours at a time.  She picked up the Metroid demo and said that she had an easier time grasping the concept of touch screen control than using joysticks on consoles.  It blew me away of course, because all of the "real gamers" out there have talked about how difficult it is to adjust.  There's something about not having to worry about a myriad of buttons that's going to attract new markets, which is what Nintendo's aiming at here, especially in Japan. ---Of course, they still need to do a lot more to hook the American mainstream that's so enamored with GTA and Halo, but that's another subject.

[foolish03]

I havent heard anyone complaining about the psp having two didgital control schemes.  According to gamespot and other reputable sources(that actually have the unit), the "analog" nub is not even truly analog.  I think the touchscreen is much more precise then a pseudo-analog nub-stick.  

[Dirk Temporo]

WHY DOESN'T ANYBODY KNOW HOW TO SPELL "RECKLESS"?!?!?! AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

*runs around in circles, falls, dies, comes back to life*

Anyway, yeah, you've got a point. Every game doesn't need to use every feature. The fact that the features exist at all is a good sign.