Topic: Just beat Wind Waker

[Jale]

Quote
Originally posted by: Mumei
... the ability to jump whenever you like.  They could keep in the auto-jumping feature, but being able to jump whenever you like would be nice.

I don't think that would realy add much to the game, as the only time you need to jump is when it use the auto jump. Besides that you can do some jumps in the targetting system.

[Bill Aurion]

Then the auto jump should be completely discarded so we can use Roc's feather...

[Mumei]

Quote
Originally posted by: Bill
Then the auto jump should be completely discarded so we can use Roc's feather...

I don't think the auto-jump really adds anything; it is just a handholding feature.  Is it that hard to press jump at the right moment?

[Link_Up]

Wow, Bill, this is like Mind-control or something, right?

You see, Bill and I talked about a new introduction of old items (especially from AlttP) last day, and now it's the number one talk on this topic. Talk about weird...
But, anyway, like i already told to Bill yesterday, i'd like to see a 3d version of the Magic Cape, maybe even a part of the game where you need it to advance in the main story, like the sneaking-in-a-barrel part in the Wind Waker. Try thinking of the stealth camo in Metal Gear Solid.
And yes, i'd say ditch the auto-jump and reintroduce the roc's feather as well, I always liked that in Link's Awakening (though there isn't anything i didn't like about that game) and like Bill told me, it should make you able to jump multiple holes.

[Mumei]

Nope, not mind control .  I disagree with him on many things anyway XD.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

The autojump isn't supposed to "add" anything special in particular, it's supposed to make "Zelda" continue to play like "Zelda" which is rooted in planar-horizontal adventure gameplay.  It gives us one less thing to worry about, and frees a face button to be mapped for something useful.

Manually jumping sounds "silly" and unnecessary considering 3D Links haven't been able to jump considerably high or far.  And it would make Link look like a bigger idiot if he's able to jump around senselessly on a large field with generally even topography.

[Bill Aurion]

"It gives us one less thing to worry about, and frees a face button to be mapped for something useful."

First of all, profy, jumping wouldn't be a main action...It would be a dedicated item you would find somewhere during the course of the game, just like in Link's Awakening...

"Manually jumping sounds "silly" and unnecessary considering 3D Links haven't been able to jump considerably high or far."

Have you played a Zelda game with Roc's feather at all? :\  It's not Link's ability to jump high, it's the feather's magic power...So though Link can't jump far on his own, the feather helps him...

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

My post was more in response to Mumei, with regards to auto-jumping vs. manual jumping as a natural mechanic in 3D Link's repetoire, like his ability to auto-climb nearby ledges or roll around.  Having a special jump ability via an item is beside the point; i'd group that with things like the hookshot and the Deku Leaf.  I regard manual jumping around an even open field as "silly" in the spirit of manually rolling across Hyrule Field in OoT; however, the manual roll has proven to be quite useful given the game designs of the past three 3D Zeldas.

I've messed around with Roc's Feather a lot in Four Swords Adventures.  I'm always stabbing my teammates.  

[NWR_Lindy]

Wow, criticize Zelda and people really start to come out of the woodwork ;-D

I thought the sailing part of the game was a brilliant concept, but it was lacklustre in execution.  My reasons:

- sailing is cool for a while, but at the end of the game when you're just trying to clean things up (e.g. get all the treasure chests, go to the same islands over and over to complete side quests, etc.) it's an inconvenience.

- the enemies out on the open ocean were annoying.  How is fighting the sharks "fun"?  It was a pain in the ass because all I wanted to do was have my boat go to the next island unimpeded.

- beyond killing Big Octos (and the occasional submarine/cannon tower), there really wasn't anything constructive to do on the open water; hence the 3-minute sail-a-thons from island to island.  In other Zelda games there was always something to do while travelling, such as getting more gems (not just those dumb floating barrel games), killing monsters, burning bushes, etc.

- am I the only that thought that fighting anything with the cannonball was irritating?  When it pops out of your boat it always points in the same direction, so you have to reposition it if the enemy isn't over there, then you fire...aaugh.  Such a pain.

I really could have done with less open water and bigger islands.  Or maybe faster sailing...anything to get rid of the "dead time" created by sailing around the map.

I thought that the dungeons and bosses were really well-done.  They were easy, but I don't really look to the Zelda series for a high level of difficulty anyways (there hasn't been any level of challenge to the series since it went 3-D...as me and my friends like to say, all you have to do now with Zelda games is "put your time in" to beat them).  I'm more there for the adventure and gameplay experience.

silks

[KDR_11k]

I didn't think of the sailing as that bad, but then I played X-BTF...

[Smashman]

Silks- did you jack into my brain and steal my thoughts. Well-Said!

Yes, sailing WAS a good concept, but as you said, there needed to be more mechanics that you could use with the boat. Make it like Skies of Arcadia, have it a giant ship (this probably would not work), possibly. I found it to get tedious, and I had to actually FORCE myself to keep playing, just to finish it.

[NWR_Lindy]

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking with my comments.  I know that Zelda can't be compared to RPGs like Final Fantasy, but the cool thing about those games is that you upgrade your transportation over the course of the game.  You get a ship to sail around the map, and it eventually becomes an airship and a huge travel advantage.

In Wind Waker there really should have been upgrades to your boat along the way.  Of course they could only go so far with this (since the entire basis of the game is sailing on the open water - an airship wouldn't make sense), but it would have been awesome if you went from a little raft, to the King of Lions boat, to a pirate ship like the one that Tetra sails around.  That would have been bad-ass.

silks

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Or a dolphin.  Cel-shaded Wave Race, anyone?

[KDR_11k]

Well, you get the sail, the baton and the cannon to allow your ship to go to places it couldn't go before...

[Smashman]

The thing I always loved about LTTP and OoT were how diverse and useful the items were. Every dungeon you get a new useful item, and it opens up new places for you to explore. WW had NONE of this. Almost all of the items were cheesy and useless.

KDR_11k- yes, but, one of those things were essential, only for simple sailing. The cannon and baton, however, were the -ONLY- things to use, but they USELESS. There was no convincing reason to use them, other than to just have mindless fun...  

[- NintendoFan -]

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Almost all of the items were cheesy and useless.

Hold on there you call the grappling hook cheesy, well how dare you?! I thought it was one of the best items in Wind Waker to say the least, and it was pretty cool grappling from place to place. Although, would have been much better if it could have been done in more spots and if Link had more diverse ways of grappling in general.

But I will agree with you that Wind Waker was pretty lacking in the items department.

[KDR_11k]

Quote
Originally posted by: - NintendoFan -
if Link had more diverse ways of grappling in general.

Why do I have a feeling this could be read in a very perverted way?

[Smashman]

KDR_11k- lol. I don't think he MEANT for it to sound like that. I think he meant for grappling to have more uses in term of possibly climb up stuff, pull stuff, or bungee jumping... those things would've been cool.

- NintendoFan -- the grappling hook was probably one of the few useful items in the game.

[NWR_Lindy]

The old 2-D Zeldas always had a fairly linear item progression, but it was rewarding..for example, when you finally got the boomerang, you knew that you'd be able to go places and open up -meaningful- new areas.  Wind Waker had this to a point, but it mostly seemed like getting a new item - aside from being able to open a new dungeon - only allowed you to get extra rupees you couldn't get, or find an extra heart piece, or whatever.

And sure, you could "power up" your boat by getting a sail, but that only makes your boat go from useless to useful instead of useful to more useful.  Besides, you upgrade your boat early in the game and it stays that way until the end.

silks

[Berny]

Quote
Originally posted by: Silks
The old 2-D Zeldas always had a fairly linear item progression, but it was rewarding..for example, when you finally got the boomerang, you knew that you'd be able to go places and open up -meaningful- new areas.  Wind Waker had this to a point, but it mostly seemed like getting a new item - aside from being able to open a new dungeon - only allowed you to get extra rupees you couldn't get, or find an extra heart piece, or whatever.

You raise a very good point. I had completely forgotten that. Huh. Well hopefully Ninty will improve on that feature of Zelda in the next one. GC or in Minish Cap. Minish Cap looks sexy, by the way. S E X Y.

[Smashman]

I LOVED how whenever you got a new item, several more places were open to explore. LTTP for example. The three 3D Zeldas did not have much of this, but I guess the styles are different.