Topic: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*

[Chozo Ghost]

Then shouldn't that also apply to video game systems as well?

A video game console isn't as costly to ship from overseas as a car. It would probably take about 100 video game consoles to equal the weight of just one car, if not more than that.

[Adrock]

Nintendo would have to pay them an actual wage and not the beads that Foxconn gives their workers.

[Chozo Ghost]

Assuming that the Foxconn thing did shut down, what would happen to the people who work there? See, that's something Tendoboy isn't considering. Those factories are their livelihood. The reason they choose to work there (and they do work their willingly, because they aren't slaves) is because its either the best job they could get or the only job they could get. If that's gone then what the hell are they supposed to do? Commit suicide becasue they can no longer support themselves and their family?

That's the thing people don't realize when they complain about sweat shops in foreign countries. You shut them down then what happens to those people?

[tendoboy1984]

Nintendo would have to pay them an actual wage and not the beads that Foxconn gives their workers.

Nintendo has their own in-house engineers, game designers, animators, etc. The actual hardware design is done by their own engineers, so why do they have to outsource the actual hardware manufacturing? Yes it's cheaper to send everything to China, but most of those workers are treated very poorly.


This question applies to Sony and Microsoft as well. Outsourcing to factories that are known to have underpaid / overworked staff is just wrong.


And the output from these outsourced factories is lower quality. Look at the animation industry, everything that is done in Korea looks cheap and sloppy. Back in the 1940's and 1950's everything was animated domestically by American animators. The output was high, and the quality was unrivaled. The animators valued their work, and it showed in the cartoons they produced. Look at cartoons today, everything looks sloppy and hastily done.

[tendoboy1984]

Assuming that the Foxconn thing did shut down, what would happen to the people who work there? See, that's something Tendoboy isn't considering. Those factories are their livelihood. The reason they choose to work there (and they do work their willingly, because they aren't slaves) is because its either the best job they could get or the only job they could get. If that's gone then what the hell are they supposed to do? Commit suicide becasue they can no longer support themselves and their family?

That's the thing people don't realize when they complain about sweat shops in foreign countries. You shut them down then what happens to those people?

Well none of these problems would happen if the sweatshops didn't exist. You don't see auto companies outsourcing their manufacturing to 3rd world countries. The problems is the workers in China aren't unionized, so they can't vouch for better pay, better work conditions, etc.

[nickmitch]

Cars tend to weigh at least a ton and a half (3000 pounds). The original PS3 was 11 pounds. It would take about 273 PS3s to equal a car, or over 1000 Wiis.

While unions are great they tend to drive up costs. Companies don't like unions for that reason, so moving jobs to union based work forces isn't a perk to anyone.

And we've already gone over how exaggerated the conditions at Foxconn have been.

[Chozo Ghost]

The actual hardware design is done by their own engineers, so why do they have to outsource the actual hardware manufacturing?

Because to do it like how you suggest would bankrupt the company.

Maybe you don't really want Nintendo to go bankrupt or for the Foxconn workers to starve to death, but that's the effect that would happen if what you want were actually carried out.

Yes it's cheaper to send everything to China, but most of those workers are treated very poorly.

A poor job is better than none at all.

Would you at least ensure there is some alternative in place for those workers before you pulled the rug out from underneath them?

Well none of these problems would happen if the sweatshops didn't exist.

If sweatshops didn't exist what jobs would these people have? In a perfect world everyone could have a cushy high paying union job, but how could that be possible? In places like Africa people are literally starving to death because they have no job at all period. I'm sure they would love to have something like Foxconn because even something terrible is better than nothing.

If Chinese factory workers unionized, you know what would happen? The jobs would be outsourced from there to some other 3rd world country, such as Africa and the Chinese would be unemployed. People in Africa would benefit if the factories moved in, but China would be where we're at right now with no manufacturing jobs because they've all been outsourced to where the labor was cheaper.

You don't see auto companies outsourcing their manufacturing to 3rd world countries.

Brandogg explained that. The shipping costs for 10 million cars weighing 2+ tons a piece would be horrendous and would more than cancel out any savings from the cheaper labor. Not to mention that a lot of the manufacturing these days is robotic anyway, and you don't have to pay robots a wage.

[tendoboy1984]

Cars tend to weigh at least a ton and a half (3000 pounds). The original PS3 was 11 pounds. It would take about 273 PS3s to equal a car, or over 1000 Wiis.

While unions are great they tend to drive up costs. Companies don't like unions for that reason, so moving jobs to union based work forces isn't a perk to anyone.

And we've already gone over how exaggerated the conditions at Foxconn have been.

Unions work for the auto industry (UAW), actors (Screen Actors Guild), etc. It could work for factory workers, but companies are too lazy and cheap to consider it.

[TJ Spyke]

Look at cartoons today, everything looks sloppy and hastily done.

Um, you think The Simpsons looks sloppy and hastily done? That is animated in South Korea. As are Family Guy, Justice League/Justice League Unlimited (which looked fantastic), Futurama, and King of the Hill. Many others do as well (most actually), but I just picked some that look really good and not "sloppy and hastily done" like you say.

[tendoboy1984]

The actual hardware design is done by their own engineers, so why do they have to outsource the actual hardware manufacturing?

Because to do it like how you suggest would bankrupt the company.

Maybe you don't really want Nintendo to go bankrupt or for the Foxconn workers to starve to death, but that's the effect that would happen if what you want were actually carried out.

Yes it's cheaper to send everything to China, but most of those workers are treated very poorly.

A poor job is better than none at all.

Would you at least ensure there is some alternative in place for those workers before you pulled the rug out from underneath them?

It wouldn't bankrupt the company. Many of the world's auto companies manufacture their cars domestically, and a majority of Ford, GM, Chrysler cars are built right here in America. Those workers are unionized, and the companies haven't done anything to change that.


Toyota, Honda, Volkswagen, etc. have plants in America too, and those workers are all unionized. If Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, etc. followed the fair labor laws and convinced Foxxcon to change their practices, then we wouldn't have to worry about those poor workers in China.

[nickmitch]

Companies don't like unions. It's not a matter of being lazy, it's a matter of not wanting to shoot themselves in the foot. Workers have to come together themselves to form a union. And no, they didn't work for the auto industry because they shipped a whole bunch of their factories to Mexico to get around union costs. Unions and companies work AGAINST each other. I don't know why you'd think the opposite.

[tendoboy1984]

Look at cartoons today, everything looks sloppy and hastily done.

Um, you think The Simpsons looks sloppy and hastily done? That is animated in South Korea. As are Family Guy, Justice League/Justice League Unlimited (which looked fantastic), Futurama, and King of the Hill. Many others do as well (most actually), but I just picked some that look really good and not "sloppy and hastily done" like you say.

King of the Hill has terrible animation. None of the cartoons today are of the quality of the shorts made during the 1940's and 1950's. The animators back in those days did everything themselves, they didn't have to outsource to Korea to get things done quickly.


Look at South Park, that entire series is made in-house. If South Park can do it, then other animation studios can do it.


I'm just glad that CG movies are still made in-house (Pixar, DreamWorks, etc.). The quality of their work is evident.

[nickmitch]

The actual hardware design is done by their own engineers, so why do they have to outsource the actual hardware manufacturing?

Because to do it like how you suggest would bankrupt the company.

Maybe you don't really want Nintendo to go bankrupt or for the Foxconn workers to starve to death, but that's the effect that would happen if what you want were actually carried out.

Yes it's cheaper to send everything to China, but most of those workers are treated very poorly.

A poor job is better than none at all.

Would you at least ensure there is some alternative in place for those workers before you pulled the rug out from underneath them?

It wouldn't bankrupt the company. Many of the world's auto companies manufacture their cars domestically, and a majority of Ford, GM, Chrysler cars are built right here in America. Those workers are unionized, and the companies haven't done anything to change that.


Toyota, Honda, Volkswagen, etc. have plants in America too, and those workers are all unionized. If Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, etc. followed the fair labor laws and convinced Foxxcon to change their practices, then we wouldn't have to worry about those poor workers in China.

Cars are made mostly by robots who don't need unions because they're robots. And you don't HAVE to worry about poor workers in China. Nobody is making you.

[tendoboy1984]

Companies don't like unions. It's not a matter of being lazy, it's a matter of not wanting to shoot themselves in the foot. Workers have to come together themselves to form a union. And no, they didn't work for the auto industry because they shipped a whole bunch of their factories to Mexico to get around union costs. Unions and companies work AGAINST each other. I don't know why you'd think the opposite.

If companies don't like unions, then the foreign car companies wouldn't have built plants in America. There is something called fair labor, and the factories in China obviously don't adhere to it. Perhaps Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, Apple, etc. should persuade the Chinese government to overhaul its labor policies and institute better wages for their workers.


And there are companies that do built their own things in their own factories, and they are doing just fine.

[TJ Spyke]

Look at cartoons today, everything looks sloppy and hastily done.

Um, you think The Simpsons looks sloppy and hastily done? That is animated in South Korea. As are Family Guy, Justice League/Justice League Unlimited (which looked fantastic), Futurama, and King of the Hill. Many others do as well (most actually), but I just picked some that look really good and not "sloppy and hastily done" like you say.

King of the Hill has terrible animation. None of the cartoons today are of the quality of the shorts made during the 1940's and 1950's. The animators back in those days did everything themselves, they didn't have to outsource to Korea to get things done quickly.

Look at South Park, that entire series is made in-house. If South Park can do it, then other animation studios can do it.

I'm just glad that CG movies are still made in-house (Pixar, DreamWorks, etc.). The quality of their work is evident.

KOTH was not badly animated (except the first season, but that was true of Simpsons as well). And I noticed you glanced over the greatly animated shows I mentioned. Most cartoons in the 40s and 50s had static backgrounds and very little actual animation.

South Park is one of my favorite shows, but its animation is extremely simplistic at best and not a show I would consider one of the better animated ones.

Pixar movies tend to take 2-3 years to animate and are not cheap. CGI movies also sometimes have work outsourced too. It seems like you think anything not made 100% in American is not as good.

[nickmitch]

1941:

2004:

[nickmitch]

If companies don't like unions, then the foreign car companies wouldn't have built plants in America. There is something called fair labor, and the factories in China obviously don't adhere to it. Perhaps Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, Apple, etc. should persuade the Chinese government to overhaul its labor policies and institute better wages for their workers.

1) Companies don't like unions. They also don't like regulations. Do they still deal with both? Yes, because they HAVE to. Foreign car companies deal with unions because union cost are far less than shipping costs. That's all there is to it. It's the lesser of two evils, the cheapest way to get **** done.

2) There's also a thing called different laws in different countries and different standards of living in different cultures. "Fair labor" is mostly a lie.

[Chozo Ghost]

It wouldn't bankrupt the company. Many of the world's auto companies manufacture their cars domestically, and a majority of Ford, GM, Chrysler cars are built right here in America. Those workers are unionized, and the companies haven't done anything to change that.


Toyota, Honda, Volkswagen, etc. have plants in America too, and those workers are all unionized. If Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, etc. followed the fair labor laws and convinced Foxxcon to change their practices, then we wouldn't have to worry about those poor workers in China.

How many times does this have to be explained to you? Brandogg did it once, and I just did it twice. I refuse to do it a third time.

How the hell is the cost of shipping a car weighing 2 tons overseas comparable to a video game console that weighs 10 pounds? They're not even apples and oranges. Its like comparing a watermelon with a pea.

[tendoboy1984]

KOTH was not badly animated (except the first season, but that was true of Simpsons as well). And I noticed you glanced over the greatly animated shows I mentioned. Most cartoons in the 40s and 50s had static backgrounds and very little actual animation.

South Park is one of my favorite shows, but its animation is extremely simplistic at best and not a show I would consider one of the better animated ones.

Pixar movies tend to take 2-3 years to animate and are not cheap. CGI movies also sometimes have work outsourced too. It seems like you think anything not made 100% in American is not as good.

I never said South Park had good animation. I was simply saying that they don't need to outsource everything to get the show made.


And I think you need to have a second look at animation that was done in the 1940's. Watch the old Tom & Jerry shorts by William Hanna / Joseph Barbera, the Loony Tunes shorts, Tex Avery's work, etc. Animation back then was much higher quality than the stuff done today. It was "full animation" (over 24 frames a second). Most TV animation done these days is limited animation.


A good example of the difference between full animation and limited animation:

This is the Family Guy episode "Road to the Multiverse". It parodies a bunch of different animation styles, and this scene is directly inspired by the old Disney musicals. The animation in this scene is far above anything I've seen in TV animation.


Also, here's a scene from Ren and Stimpy's "Sven Hoek". This scene shows how well done TV animation can be if they actually tried.

And my final point: Both of those scenes were done by American animation studios. You think the animators in Korea could make stuff that good? Animation is an art form, and I'm saddened that most studios would rather outsource to cheap animation studios in Korea than have it made by talented artists in America.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Source: http://cghub.com/images/view/95042/
Learn to use Google image search :-p

Posted from my phone. Which means it almost wasnt posted at all.
But I doubted it was from anything real, just didn't have the means to check at the time.

[nickmitch]

Comparing movie animation and TV animation isn't apples to apples. Disney movies gross hundreds of millions for 2 hours of animation. Most television shows (cartoon or otherwise) don't actually make ANY money in their initial run.

[tendoboy1984]

Comparing movie animation and TV animation isn't apples to apples. Disney movies gross hundreds of millions for 2 hours of animation. Most television shows (cartoon or otherwise) don't actually make ANY money in their initial run.

I was giving examples of how TV animation could be much better than it actually is if the animators had bigger budgets.


Those scenes from Family Guy and Ren & Stimpy were done by American studios, which shows just how much better they are than Korean animators.

[TJ Spyke]

Also, here's a scene from Ren and Stimpy's "Sven Hoek". This scene shows how well done TV animation can be if they actually tried.

You apparently didn't realize that Ren and Stimpy was another cartoon animated in South Korea. As is Family Guy. So don't use those as examples of American animation.

And Tom and Jerry having great animation? Hanna-Barbera cartoons were very simplistic and not high quality by current standards.

Bigger budgets equals having to make even more money just to break even. Most of the animating done overseas is just menial work anyways, the creative stuff is usually done here.

[tendoboy1984]

Also, here's a scene from Ren and Stimpy's "Sven Hoek". This scene shows how well done TV animation can be if they actually tried.

You apparently didn't realize that Ren and Stimpy was another cartoon animated in South Korea. As is Family Guy. So don't use those as examples of American animation.

And Tom and Jerry having great animation? Hanna-Barbera cartoons were very simplistic and not high quality by current standards.

Bigger budgets equals having to make even more money just to break even. Most of the animating done overseas is just menial work anyways, the creative stuff is usually done here.

You didn't read any of what I wrote in that last post. Here are the scenes from Family Guy and Ren & Stimpy:

That Family Guy scene was done in LA by American animators. I found this quote from Cartoon Brew by a supposed animator named Greg Colton:


[quote: Greg Colton] I knew if Cartoon Brew liked this sequence, I did my job right! For this sequence to work, it could NOT have looked like “TV studio trying to look like a feature” …it had to look real. We were fortunate enough to work with Andrew Egiziano at Mainstreet Productions, who put together an amazing group of talented animators and artists.Kyle – Darlie and Sandro did in fact animate this sequence, along with some excellent inbetweeners and cleanup artists. *round of applause*If I remember correctly, Darlie animated everything through the scene with Peter holding Stewie in the air…then another animator (man, I can’t remember his name…) did the Cleveland skunk and Adam West mouse scenes….Sandro did “The bees making honey” scene through the scene where they all scream “NO!” to Herbert (although Darlie animated Herbert at the end of the 3D camera move) ..and then Darlie did the rest after that!Sandro also did all the final character designs. I roughed out a lot of them myself, Mick Cassidy did Lois & Chris, Sharon Ross did Cleveland …but Sandro took our designs and really made them LEGIT!I can’t forget to mention Tony Pulham – he designed/painted all of the backgrounds and colored the characters.Everyone involved in this episode, especially the Disneyverse, went above and beyond…..thank you!


And here's an episode of Tom & Jerry that was made in the 1940's by Hannah-Barbera. This was made in the late 1940's, BEFORE they quit MGM and formed their TV animation studio:

Now tell me that animation is bad compared to their later work.


I just wish more TV animation was done in-house. The quality of those scenes is very apparent.

[TJ Spyke]

Do you have any source that those two scenes were made by American studios? Especially since the Ren and Stimpy clip looks exactly like nearly every other scene from the show (which is Korean animated).