Topic: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*

[King of Twitch]

it is May.

Thank you. Finally someone understands. I am so sick and tired of this '/sarcasm' in this thread. It seems that in their old age, too many on this very forum have grown into the warped, frustrated old man who can't see beyond his neighbor's overgrown hedges and have lost sight of what's important. In my heydey, May used to be the holiest month of the gamer's calendar; the month of E3 and the leadup to it was a time of reflection, speculation, tall tales, glorious controller mockups, vision quests, and unbroken unity. What is it now? One or two guys posting rumors and the rest crapping on them as if they were confirmed and acting as if it's the second coming of the Nintendo 64. We are one month and 4 days from the greatest day of the year, the day the Nintendo Hype Train leaves the station at full speed into the future, so is it too much to ask for a little more decorum? Names will be taken, ***es will be kicked, motion-controlled shields will be shattered, and 3D will blow our brains like OBL's... Sure, it may be the last console full of new screwups and subpar technology that only the lowest of nerds will care about... And sure, it may be the last hurrah before Nintendo rides off into the third party sunset, but I tell you -- IT IS NOT THIS DAY. ERE THE SUN RISES.

[Oblivion]

it is May.

Thank you. Finally someone understands. I am so sick and tired of this '/sarcasm' in this thread. It seems that in their old age, too many on this very forum have grown into the warped, frustrated old man who can't see beyond his neighbor's overgrown hedges and have lost sight of what's important. In my heydey, May used to be the holiest month of the gamer's calendar; the month of E3 and the leadup to it was a time of reflection, speculation, tall tales, glorious controller mockups, vision quests, and unbroken unity. What is it now? One or two guys posting rumors and the rest crapping on them as if they were confirmed and acting as if it's the second coming of the Nintendo 64. We are one month and 4 days from the greatest day of the year, the day the Nintendo Hype Train leaves the station at full speed into the future, so is it too much to ask for a little more decorum? Names will be taken, ***es will be kicked, motion-controlled shields will be shattered, and 3D will blow our brains like OBL's... Sure, it may be the last console full of new screwups and subpar technology that only the lowest of nerds will care about... And sure, it may be the last hurrah before Nintendo rides off into the third party sunset, but I tell you -- IT IS NOT THIS DAY. ERE THE SUN RISES.

XDDDDDDDDDD MY MAN YOU HAVE WON THE INTERNET. Best post ever. If I could give Karma, I would Karma you SO HARD right now.

[Adrock]

I would love ZERO load times, but I wouldn't like to pay an extra $10 for them per game.

See, this is where I get hazy. What are you basing this off of? If it's N64, I already addressed this. It's not even the same thing by a long shot. A $20 cartridge with with 10-20 times less storage is a far cry from a $5 card with similar storage capabilities. Using cards in 2012 when Cafe launches has none of the handicaps that N64 cartridges had. And if no one is using 25GB, that extra space means nothing. Sony and their 1st and 2nd party developers are pushing the size limit and knowingly writing unoptimized code and leaving data uncompressed. Everyone else is fine making games on Xbox 360 without Blu Ray and 99% of time on a single DVD. Square Enix used 2 DVDs for Final Fantasy XIII because they still feel the need to use CG. Same with Mistwalker and Lost Odyssey's 4 Discs. If Cafe is as powerful as rumors suggest, Square Enix will probably be the only company still wasting their time with CG cutscenes. As long as 3rd parties can put theirs games on Cafe and turn a nice profit, we'll see those games. However, that has little to do with the cards vs. discs and everything to do with Nintendo putting the right pieces together. I doubt any 3rd party is telling Nintendo "Blu Ray or GTFO" considering almost all of them have supported DS and are working on 3DS titles. Alternatively, I can see them telling Nintendo that they want more RAM, a faster CPU, a more powerful GPU, a better online service, more buttons on the controller etc. All of them potential dealbreakers because if Nintendo fails at providing any of those things, then 3rd parties can't bring over the same game to Cafe. If Cafe can't offer the same experience or better, Cafe gets a shittier version or nothing at all.

[Stogi]

I would Karma you SO HARD right now.

That's what she said.

it is May.

Thank you. Finally someone understands. I am so sick and tired of this '/sarcasm' in this thread. It seems that in their old age, too many on this very forum have grown into the warped, frustrated old man who can't see beyond his neighbor's overgrown hedges and have lost sight of what's important. In my heydey, May used to be the holiest month of the gamer's calendar; the month of E3 and the leadup to it was a time of reflection, speculation, tall tales, glorious controller mockups, vision quests, and unbroken unity. What is it now? One or two guys posting rumors and the rest crapping on them as if they were confirmed and acting as if it's the second coming of the Nintendo 64. We are one month and 4 days from the greatest day of the year, the day the Nintendo Hype Train leaves the station at full speed into the future, so is it too much to ask for a little more decorum? Names will be taken, ***es will be kicked, motion-controlled shields will be shattered, and 3D will blow our brains like OBL's... Sure, it may be the last console full of new screwups and subpar technology that only the lowest of nerds will care about... And sure, it may be the last hurrah before Nintendo rides off into the third party sunset, but I tell you -- IT IS NOT THIS DAY. ERE THE SUN RISES.

/sarcasm

[BlackNMild2k1]

I would love ZERO load times, but I wouldn't like to pay an extra $10 for them per game.

See, this is where I get hazy. What are you basing this off of? If it's N64, I already addressed this. It's not even the same thing by a long shot. A $20 cartridge with with 10-20 times less storage is a far cry from a $5 card with similar storage capabilities. Using cards in 2012 when Cafe launches has none of the handicaps that N64 cartridges had. And if no one is using 25GB, that extra space means nothing. Sony and their 1st and 2nd party developers are pushing the size limit and knowingly writing unoptimized code and leaving data uncompressed. Everyone else is fine making games on Xbox 360 without Blu Ray and 99% of time on a single DVD. Square Enix used 2 DVDs for Final Fantasy XIII because they still feel the need to use CG. Same with Mistwalker and Lost Odyssey's 4 Discs. If Cafe is as powerful as rumors suggest, Square Enix will probably be the only company still wasting their time with CG cutscenes. As long as 3rd parties can put theirs games on Cafe and turn a nice profit, we'll see those games. However, that has little to do with the cards vs. discs and everything to do with Nintendo putting the right pieces together. I doubt any 3rd party is telling Nintendo "Blu Ray or GTFO" considering almost all of them have supported DS and are working on 3DS titles. Alternatively, I can see them telling Nintendo that they want more RAM, a faster CPU, a more powerful GPU, a better online service, more buttons on the controller etc. All of them potential dealbreakers because if Nintendo fails at providing any of those things, then 3rd parties can't bring over the same game to Cafe. If Cafe can't offer the same experience or better, Cafe gets a shittier version or nothing at all.

I'm basing this off the fact that large flash based cards are still gonna be multiple times the cost of a disc based format and 3rd parties are already "bleeding" money just trying to produce games @ 720p. The extra cost of actually pushing these games to 1080p and optimizing them to run off a cart that would likely cost whatever Nintendo feels they can get away with charging ($5-$10 a cart?) multiplied by 100,000 unit minimum order (just like they used to do back in the day) plus mandatory lead times on re-orders and all the other bullshit that comes along with 3rd parties having abandoned Nintendo when they last used carts leads to decreased 3rd party support and increased cost for everyone down the line which ends up costing me more to play the same games.

Lots of games now fit on 8GB disc because 1) the lead console was X360 & 2) most games are only pushing 720p assets anyway. I would imagine when 1080p games become the standard, the assets are gonna increase in size yet again and now 8GB disc won't be enough for lots of projects.

If you have a cart, cost rise to add more memory and then you have ot multiply that by every needed cart. On a disc you just add a 2nd layer for a few cents more. It adds up really quickly, especially when you start dealing in the 100's of 1000's or even millions of units.

1million disc @ $0.70 = $700k
1million carts @ $5.00 = $5million

there is your HUGE difference

Carts make sense on a handheld because disc use too much power (see PSP). Carts are small and the cost is necessary. To do the same on a console at the prices doesn't make sense to 3rd parties that are already not making any money trying to push the HD envelope. We would all LOVE to go back to carts for many reasons, but none the overwhelming majority of us are not willing to pay the extra cost to play the same game.

Loading times suck, but if data is handled right, they can be minimal and some times almost not noticed. Not worth the extra cost at this point in time with the state that the industry is in at the moment.

[Kytim89]

Since Capcom is showing Nintendo consoles a lot of love why don't they give the Super Wii a remake of both Resident Evil 2 and three as launch titles. This would be another great reason to own the console in my opinion.

As for those who are debating the storage solutions for the Wii 2, check this out:

http://gizmodo.com/#!5497512/the-future-of-storage

[Ceric]

I remember reading that an N64 cart cost 3rd parties something like $20 vs. a CD at $1. That's not even close to what you're suggesting. The largest N64 cartridge offered 10 times less storage at 20 times the price. And that was at a time when developers were filling entire CDs. No one has filled an entire Blu Ray with actual content. A lot of it is uncompressed data. Just seems like Sony trying to justify Blu Ray than Blu Ray being a superior format.

You can try to argue that 3rd parties would balk at the extra cost but Nintendo's been using cards for 6 and a half years now and no one has complained. Obviously, Cafe games would ship on larger capacity cards. An 10GB card today might cost 3rd parties something like $8 per card, "today" being the operative word because it won't cost that much a year from now. And that's assuming they'd even need that much storage space. They wouldn't order 10GB cards if their game is, for example, sub-5GB thus reducing the price even more.

DS cards cost more than UMDs but that didn't change anything. Wii used regular sized DVDs, that didn't change anything either. It was also cheaper to develop for. There are other factors. Cartridges were certainly a deterrent on N64, but so was its awful hardware architecture. 3rd parties will support hardware they deem worth supporting. That's really the bottomline here. That and Nintendo doesn't even like optical media. Technology has finally caught up to the point where Nintendo can abandon it. For a game console, cards are a superior format. That's why I even brought this up. Nintendo marches to the beat of their own drum. This seems like something Nintendo would do and for once, I actually don't think 3rd parties would scoff at the decision so long as Nintendo provides them with quality hardware which, if the rumors are true, they are... finally. If 3rd parties feel they can make a profit, they'll support anything.

With all things equal if the load times on one platform is non-existent I'm sure people who know would go for that one.

/internet five

And to think I said all those terrible things about you. I take back (some of them).

But we have such common views at times.

[Ceric]

I remember reading that an N64 cart cost 3rd parties something like $20 vs. a CD at $1. That's not even close to what you're suggesting. The largest N64 cartridge offered 10 times less storage at 20 times the price. And that was at a time when developers were filling entire CDs. No one has filled an entire Blu Ray with actual content. A lot of it is uncompressed data. Just seems like Sony trying to justify Blu Ray than Blu Ray being a superior format.

You can try to argue that 3rd parties would balk at the extra cost but Nintendo's been using cards for 6 and a half years now and no one has complained. Obviously, Cafe games would ship on larger capacity cards. An 10GB card today might cost 3rd parties something like $8 per card, "today" being the operative word because it won't cost that much a year from now. And that's assuming they'd even need that much storage space. They wouldn't order 10GB cards if their game is, for example, sub-5GB thus reducing the price even more.

DS cards cost more than UMDs but that didn't change anything. Wii used regular sized DVDs, that didn't change anything either. It was also cheaper to develop for. There are other factors. Cartridges were certainly a deterrent on N64, but so was its awful hardware architecture. 3rd parties will support hardware they deem worth supporting. That's really the bottomline here. That and Nintendo doesn't even like optical media. Technology has finally caught up to the point where Nintendo can abandon it. For a game console, cards are a superior format. That's why I even brought this up. Nintendo marches to the beat of their own drum. This seems like something Nintendo would do and for once, I actually don't think 3rd parties would scoff at the decision so long as Nintendo provides them with quality hardware which, if the rumors are true, they are... finally. If 3rd parties feel they can make a profit, they'll support anything.

With all things equal if the load times on one platform is non-existent I'm sure people who know would go for that one.

/internet five

And to think I said all those terrible things about you. I take back (some of them).

But we have such common views at times.

On a discussion related portion.  How is licensing done with Nintendo is it per unit?

[BlackNMild2k1]

As far as carts are concerned, that was how Nintendo did it before.

Cost per unit, minimum orders & several month lead times before shipment ready and then again for re-orders with upfront payments.

I think things are far more favorable with a standard optical disc with quicker turnarounds and much shorter lead times

Even though lots of things have changed since 2000 with read/write carts and internet info sharing, I think that even ignoring the cost difference, 90% of 3rd parties would rather keep disc if it meant Nintendo being in charge of carts on consoles again.

[Ceric]

As far as carts are concerned, that was how Nintendo did it before.

Cost per unit, minimum orders & several month lead times before shipment ready and then again for re-orders with upfront payments.

I think things are far more favorable with a standard optical disc with quicker turnarounds and much shorter lead times

Even though lots of things have changed since 2000 with read/write carts and internet info sharing, I think that even ignoring the cost difference, 90% of 3rd parties would rather keep disc if it meant Nintendo being in charge of carts on consoles again.

Doesn't Nintendo own all the tech for the Discs as well because their slightly different and the process would need to be licensed?  Didn't companies start going around Nintendo  in the Cart days and made their own licensed carts?  Not to mention the technology in and of itself was not in the general consumers hands at the time, all hail the Floppy.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I think the only thing different about Nintendo's disc is the way they are read (CAV*) and the file system used.
Other than that it's a standard DVD for Wii and a miniDVD for GC

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_angular_velocity

And I think Panasonic actually owns it... or at least Panny created it.

[Adrock]

All points duly noted. However, you keep going back to N64 but that still doesn't change the fact that 3rd parties have been supporting cards on hardware that already exists and thrives today. There's precedence for it working; just as there's precedence for it not working. The difference is that the former is far more recent suggesting that the issues of the latter have, for the most part, been rectified. No one has complained about Nintendo's handling of DS/3DS cards, not in terms of price, lead times or any other ridiculous old-school Nintendo conditions/restrictions. If it was a problem, we would have heard about it ages ago.

I would imagine when 1080p games become the standard, the assets are gonna increase in size yet again and now 8GB disc won't be enough for lots of projects.

And when will that be? 8GB may not be enough when that happens, but the storage of cards is scable and the prices are dropping. As long as 360 is the lead platform, that's really not an issue anyway. Even if Cafe is capable of true 1080p, 360 is the lead platform and games will be release at 720p and upscaled to 1080p if 3rd parties want to put in the effort (chances are most won't). Estimates place Sony and MS launching in 2014. That's 3 years from now; 3 years of 360 being the lead platform, unless Cafe can become the lead platform at some point in that time and it's still not an issue because advances in technology and the passage of time will have dramatically dropped prices of solid state memory. In 3 years, a 16GB card won't be anywhere near $5 (as in lower), chances are a 32GB card will be less than that as well. What, then, is the benefit of discs over cards? The price discrepancy is narrowing with each passing day.

Carts make sense on a handheld because disc use too much power (see PSP).

True, but your point was that 3rd parties prefer discs over cards because of price. If 3rd parties were so concerned over the price of media, they would have demanded Nintendo employ discs or cut support which clearly did not happen. DS provided a better ecosystem for profitability despite more expensive media. That's the model Nintendo should be following. As long as suporting Cafe is profitable, it will get support, but that depends on far more than its storage medium.

But we have such common views at times.

Just having some fun. Trying to lighten the mood. No hard feelings. We all may get into heated debates on these forums but anyone who takes it personally needs to chillax.

[Ceric]

I think the only thing different about Nintendo's disc is the way they are read (CAV*) and the file system used.
Other than that it's a standard DVD for Wii and a miniDVD for GC

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_angular_velocity

And I think Panasonic actually owns it... or at least Panny created it.

If I'm reading that right it halves the Disc space.  So an 8gig game would be 16gig on a Nintendo disc.

I also wonder on the cart cost we are doing on this based on flash as we know it.  Which is the Read/Write style.  What ever cart is there maybe a little Read/Write on it but we are also talking about ROM here which is historically cheaper then the Read/Write alternative. (Like in flash all that life extending writing algorithms wouldn't need to be licensed, etc.)  Because honestly no publisher would send items on a None Read-Only media as its main format.  Of course it would also be encrypted, etc.

[Ceric]

...

But we have such common views at times.

Just having some fun. Trying to lighten the mood. No hard feelings. We all may get into heated debates on these forums but anyone who takes it personally needs to chillax.

*Pats head* I was too.

[Stogi]

They should offer everything. Want to put your game on an SD card? Go ahead. Would you like to use a disc instead? Why not? Hate physical media and would like to make people download a 40gb game? Be my guest.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Carts make sense on a handheld because disc use too much power (see PSP).

True, but your point was that 3rd parties prefer discs over cards because of price. If 3rd parties were so concerned over the price of media, they would have demanded Nintendo employ discs or cut support which clearly did not happen. DS provided a better ecosystem for profitability despite more expensive media. That's the model Nintendo should be following. As long as suporting Cafe is profitable, it will get support, but that depends on far more than its storage medium.
debates on these forums but anyone who takes it personally needs to chillax.

PSP used disc and gamers didn't buy the games. Why didn't they buy the games? I can only guess that it was because the UMD's ate up all the battery life, which lead for the need to bypass the UMD drive, which led to ripping games off the UMD which led to games as torrents which then meant free games to all who had a memstick.

The DS provided a better ecosystem mostly because there was no clear alternative and trust me when I say that 3rd parties propped up the PSP long since past it should have been considered dead. They tried to make an alternative to DS but games simply were not being bough outside of Monster Hunter. In other words, 3rd parties didn't really have a choice but to support the DS with it's record breaking sales in both hardware and software.


If Nintendo can dominate the console industry again and effectively shut out MS & Sony from actually being profitable and/or viable alternatives in that area then sure, Nintendo can do whatever they want, such as using more expensive carts that regardless of how cheap they get will always cost more than a disc.

But you are also forgetting the other thing I mentioned about carts, Nintendo controls them. You have to go to Nintendo for their proprietary carts and Nintendo can price them as they see fit. They control the manufacture and will probably still request high minimum orders & queued up lead times for manufacturing.

I'm not saying that Carts on home consoles are dead, but I don't think we will be going back to them this generation, and probably not the next either unless they find a way to incorporate that holo tech into it for really cheap.

[Ceric]

Carts make sense on a handheld because disc use too much power (see PSP).

True, but your point was that 3rd parties prefer discs over cards because of price. If 3rd parties were so concerned over the price of media, they would have demanded Nintendo employ discs or cut support which clearly did not happen. DS provided a better ecosystem for profitability despite more expensive media. That's the model Nintendo should be following. As long as suporting Cafe is profitable, it will get support, but that depends on far more than its storage medium.
debates on these forums but anyone who takes it personally needs to chillax.

PSP used disc and gamers didn't buy the games. Why didn't they buy the games? I can only guess that it was because the UMD's ate up all the battery life, which lead for the need to bypass the UMD drive, which led to ripping games off the UMD which led to games as torrents which then meant free games to all who had a memstick.

The DS provided a better ecosystem mostly because there was no clear alternative and trust me when I say that 3rd parties propped up the PSP long since past it should have been considered dead. They tried to make an alternative to DS but games simply were not being bough outside of Monster Hunter. In other words, 3rd parties didn't really have a choice but to support the DS with it's record breaking sales in both hardware and software.


If Nintendo can dominate the console industry again and effectively shut out MS & Sony from actually being profitable and/or viable alternatives in that area then sure, Nintendo can do whatever they want, such as using more expensive carts that regardless of how cheap they get will always cost more than a disc.

But you are also forgetting the other thing I mentioned about carts, Nintendo controls them. You have to go to Nintendo for their proprietary carts and Nintendo can price them as they see fit. They control the manufacture and will probably still request high minimum orders & queued up lead times for manufacturing.

I'm not saying that Carts on home consoles are dead, but I don't think we will be going back to them this generation, and probably not the next either unless they find a way to incorporate that holo tech into it for really cheap.

I'm sort of curious about the durability of Holo-tech.  It seem flexing the disc to much would ruin data inside it without any signs to the user.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I don't know much about it other than it has many different "layers" based on th angle of the laser and therefore can store alot more info in much smaller spaces. I don't know anything about the durability of the disc or what form of holotech Nintendo would debut for consumer use.

I know that a version of the InPhase tech was a cartridge of some sort but GE has it in disc form just like a DVD. GE's version is supposed to hit commercial market next year and InPhase was in some sort of trouble a few years ago and probably won't have anything hit market for a few more years.

[Ceric]

Cart doesn't sound bad but, there is actually a reason Sci-Fi makes it holo storage things like solid cubes.

[BlackNMild2k1]

A box that shines lasers on a spinning holocube probably wouldn't fit in my entertainment center very nicely though.

[Ceric]

A box that shines lasers on a spinning holocube probably wouldn't fit in my entertainment center very nicely though.

Just put it where your GameCube was.

[Ian Sane]

Regarding carts remember that third parties are lazy and are always looking to cut corners.  And they already have a rocky relationship with Nintendo.  I think it is important that Nintendo not provide them with even the slightest excuse to not support Cafe.  Yeah maybe the increased cost is minimal or that such-and-such amount of space should be good enough.  It doesn't matter because the other guys are still cheaper and allow for more space.  In a perfect world I think carts are the better way to go but Sony and MS are providing an easier way out and third parties are going to take it.  They would use the increased costs of the carts as an excuse to bail.

Nobody wants to go the extra mile for Nintendo, particularly since Nintendo has a reputation for jerking everyone around.  The slightest inconvenience will send them packing.  Nintendo's third party relations are **** largely because they have this arrogant "everyone will support us because we're Nintendo" attitude and carts would reflect that attitude.  Assume NO ONE wants to make Nintendo games and then think about what sort of format Nintendo would have to go with to change their minds.  Carts ain't it.  Not at all.

[Ceric]

Regarding carts remember that third parties are lazy and are always looking to cut corners.  And they already have a rocky relationship with Nintendo.  I think it is important that Nintendo not provide them with even the slightest excuse to not support Cafe.  Yeah maybe the increased cost is minimal or that such-and-such amount of space should be good enough.  It doesn't matter because the other guys are still cheaper and allow for more space.  In a perfect world I think carts are the better way to go but Sony and MS are providing an easier way out and third parties are going to take it.  They would use the increased costs of the carts as an excuse to bail.

Nobody wants to go the extra mile for Nintendo, particularly since Nintendo has a reputation for jerking everyone around.  The slightest inconvenience will send them packing.  Nintendo's third party relations are **** largely because they have this arrogant "everyone will support us because we're Nintendo" attitude and carts would reflect that attitude.  Assume NO ONE wants to make Nintendo games and then think about what sort of format Nintendo would have to go with to change their minds.  Carts ain't it.  Not at all.

Honestly being able to use the competitors disc wholesale would be great for third parties.  Print once for all.
Hackers would also love it.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Rear Track pad on the Cafe Remote?
http://www.juegosdb.com/juegos/nintendo/nintendo-wii/videojuegos/opinion-project-cafe-wii-2-y-su-posible-nuevo-mando.html
It's in spanish and Google Translate makes for a tough read

but they also say that Dice (Battlefield 3) & Blizzard (Starcraft 2) and many others are betting big on Cafe because the potential of that trackpad.

I will call BS on this, but atleast Cafe would also be able to do NGP ports as well.
No such thing as a 3rd party exclusive unless it's on a Nintendo Console is what it seems all these conflicting rumors are trying to point to.

2 analogs, 4 face buttons, 2 shoulder buttons, 2 analog triggers, 6.2" Haptic 3D backlit OLED HD touch screen, rear touch pad, front facing camera, IR lights/sensors, bluetooth, WirelessHD, battery, rumble, gyros/accelerometers, & speaker(s)

all this controller is missing is a kitchen sink, an SD card slot and it's own Holographic Bluray drive with wireless recharging tech and a fleshlight.

[King of Twitch]

all this controller is missing is a fleshlight.

Now that's a revolution.