Topic: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*

[DAaaMan64]

hahaha the average Wii game size is at most 1 gig. Friggin' WiiSports is like 330 MBs and there are many more like that.

Trust me, I rip all my games to HD.

[stevey]

I was at Wal-mart a few days ago and noticed that they were selling   4 GB flash drives for $10. Not a bad deal, but it is a sign that the prices are coming down on the technology. What is to say that necy year it is 8GB in the $10 range?

How big are the average wii games? Are they 8 GB? I forsee wii 2 games being in the the 20 GB range?

That's way overkill. All my Wii games combined are ~29GB in total. There are only 3 games that are above 5GB: Metroid Prime: Trilogy, Smash bros, and Sakura Wars. Everything else is 4GB and below.

Just my guess. Does anyone else have a rough figure?

This link has the exact size for every wii game ever released *Caution Piracy* (Pirates are the only ones that care enough to go make a chart)

The average is less than a Gig for shitty 3rd party games and 3GB for everything else.

If the wii stays on the market for a few more years and the wii 2 stays on the side lines then the size of wii games will only get bigger. Eventually two disced wii games will start to pop up.

Why, if anything the trend has been in the opposite direction for Wii games.
Super Mario Galaxy: 3.27GB
Super Mario Galaxy 2: 1.29GB...

[Stratos]

Oh, so Prime Trilogy is larger than Brawl.

Almost nothing gets far over 4 gigs and those are RPGs, music games and Star Wars.

[Ian Sane]

I like cartridges and all but there is too much Nintendo thinkin' in defense of the idea.  Too much "well how much space do you really need?" and "the price difference isn't that much" and "with today's graphics you don't need video."  Those are excuses.  Those are what drive third parties away.  Nintendo has been telling third parties what they should or shouldn't need since the N64 days and, surprise, their third party support has been complete balls the entire time.  The most important thing is flexibility and that means lots of storage at a low cost.  Obviously that's what is important for third parties.

As for what Nintendo will actually do, well I figure there will be some aspect of the Wii 2 that will be very developer unfriendly and will suit Nintendo and only Nintendo's needs.  Hopefully it will be a minor issue that won't cause much of a problem.  But if Nintendo had cartridges I would not be surprised.  Though I think honestly they'll just use DVDs.  Blu-Ray is giving money to Sony and is more or less overkill.  The Xbox 360 does fine with DVDs and I don't expect the Wii 2 to dwarf the HD consoles in power.  It'll probably match them at best.  Nintendo is not the sort of company that is going to want to make games that fill up Blu-Ray discs.  That ain't their style.  So they aren't going to go with something that provides tons of extra space that they themselves have zero interest in using.  DVDs will be good enough for Nintendo so if they use discs that's what they're using.

[Adrock]

I don't know. I'd be just as skeptical if not for the strides Nintendo has made with 3DS. They requested feedback from 3rd parties and have been courting them for support. I don't want to get my hopes too far up, but this is the most Nintendo has done ever.... EVER. They seem to at least be trying this time around.

[Mop it up]

I like cartridges and all but there is too much Nintendo thinkin' in defense of the idea.  Too much "well how much space do you really need?" and "the price difference isn't that much" and "with today's graphics you don't need video."  Those are excuses.  Those are what drive third parties away.  Nintendo has been telling third parties what they should or shouldn't need since the N64 days and, surprise, their third party support has been complete balls the entire time.  The most important thing is flexibility and that means lots of storage at a low cost.  Obviously that's what is important for third parties.

Game companies are showing they don't need more space than offered since very few games come close to filling up the space currently available. So most games wouldn't come on 8GB cards, or probably even 4GB, they'd probably be 2GB or 1GB which would likely cost pretty much the same as discs. And if companies do need more space then it's there if they want it; the limit of what cards can be is pretty high.

My mindset is not telling anyone what they need or don't need, it is what I, as a consumer, want in a product. And that's a durable medium with no load times. It is of no concern to me that companies have to spend a teensy bit more to offer this.

[vudu]

My mindset is not telling anyone what they need or don't need, it is what I, as a consumer, want in a product. And that's a durable medium with no load times. It is of no concern to me that companies have to spend a teensy bit more to offer this.

Sorry, but I agree with Ian on this one.  Publishers don't care about durable medium or the lack of load times.  Hell, some of them have come out and said that they don't care about frame rate (because 60 fps doesn't sell any more copies than 30 fps).

What really matters is graphics, brand names and review scores.  The medium doesn't affect two of those, but graphics are impacted because fancy graphics take up lots of space and lots of space can be expensive on certain formats.

[Mop it up]

Of course publishers don't care, I'm well aware that they don't. It doesn't mean I have to think the same.

[Ian Sane]

My mindset is not telling anyone what they need or don't need, it is what I, as a consumer, want in a product. And that's a durable medium with no load times. It is of no concern to me that companies have to spend a teensy bit more to offer this.

My concern is also only what I want in a product.  However what I want is a console with both Nintendo's first party games and the best third party games.  The last time one of those was around I was just starting high school.  A durable medium is of little concern to me because I take exceptionally good care of my stuff.  It would work better for used games though.  Load times suck but in good games are rarely so bad that I can't enjoy the game.  Compared to third party support they are more or less irrelevant to me.  The priority just isn't there.  Plus without developers actually making games for the system the advantage is really just theoretical.  Nintendo are already incredibly talented at reducing and hiding load times.  They themselves don't need cartridges.  The devs that do will probably shun a console that uses cartridges so what benefit is gained?

[TheBlackCat]

Game companies are showing they don't need more space than offered since very few games come close to filling up the space currently available.

On SD games, HD game have much higher-resolution textures and so need more space. 

And are you seriously saying we should just not have any jRPGs?  Nintendo already has enough trouble getting those sorts as it is without making them flat-out impossible.

I really want to see my Mario Kart everytrackfromeverymarkiokartever

So most games wouldn't come on 8GB cards, or probably even 4GB, they'd probably be 2GB or 1GB which would likely cost pretty much the same as discs. And if companies do need more space then it's there if they want it; the limit of what cards can be is pretty high.

First, no they would cost considerably more than discs.  A 4 GB completely blank flash drive costs about as much as a 50 GB blu ray containing a movie, so the unit cost of blu ray would be much less.  Expecting game developers to either jack up the prices by 50% or cut their profit margins by half is not going to make them want to make games for Nintendo.  It didn't in the N64 days and it certainly won't today when there are two strong, established competitors on the market instead of one unproven upstart.

Second, the price goes up rapidly as you increase the size.  A 8 GB flash drive would cost a couple times as much, a 16 more than 4 or 5 times as much, a 32 gb would cost as much as 2 games at least.  The price for Blu-ray, however, does not go up at all until 25 GB, and even then it is not much more for 50 GB.

And that's a durable medium with no load times.

If load times are that big a deal they could stream data to internal flash memory in the background and load it off there.  And it is possible to put discs in a durable housing, but it looks clunky so people tend to avoid that.

It is of no concern to me that companies have to spend a teensy bit more to offer this.

What I want is fun games, and I am not going to get them from third parties if Nintendo takes this approach.

[Mop it up]

Those are reasons why it probably won't happen, but I'd still like to see it. Companies care too much about saving money rather than serving consumers.

On SD games, HD game have much higher-resolution textures and so need more space. 

So there are no HD games on the XBox 360?

And are you seriously saying we should just not have any jRPGs?

I have no idea how you got that from what I said.

[Adrock]

I really want to see my Mario Kart everytrackfromeverymarkiokartever

Could we just have a robust track editor? Please and thank you.

[Mop it up]

I don't think it's feasible to create a worthwhile track editor for a 3D game. I've played some of the tracks people have created using hacks, and if that's indicative of what could be done with an editor, none of them would compare to professionally designed tracks that are not limited to tilesets.

I'm not saying that I don't want one, just that I wouldn't want it in the place of any regular tracks. In fact, DLC tracks would be preferable to an editor.

[broodwars]

I don't think it's feasible to create a worthwhile track editor for a 3D game. I've played some of the tracks people have created using hacks, and if that's indicative of what could be done with an editor, none of them would compare to professionally designed tracks that are not limited to tilesets.

Supposedly, the track creator in ModNation Racers on the PS3 is pretty serviceable, and if the E3 2010 demo they did on-stage is any indication it's pretty simple to use if a bit basic.

[NWR_insanolord]

Hard drive installs, like you can do on the 360, can pretty much get rid of load times, and with the ever-increasing size of console hard drives they're becoming more feasible on a large scale. The only downside, and it's fairly significant, is how long it takes to do. You only have to do it once, but it can be pretty annoying to wait for it to happen.

[Kytim89]

Hard drive installs, like you can do on the 360, can pretty much get rid of load times, and with the ever-increasing size of console hard drives they're becoming more feasible on a large scale. The only downside, and it's fairly significant, is how long it takes to do. You only have to do it once, but it can be pretty annoying to wait for it to happen.

Could installs be done via internal flash memory?
 
Here is what I think the wii 2 will have as a storage medium. First, 16 GB of internal flash memory. Second, SDHC support up to 64 GB. Third, external flash and HDD support via USB ports.

Silicone Knights needs to return to Nintendo and make a sequel to Eternal Darkness. That piss poor game Too Human was a sign that the developer needs to stay with daddy, Nintendo.

[broodwars]

Hard drive installs, like you can do on the 360, can pretty much get rid of load times, and with the ever-increasing size of console hard drives they're becoming more feasible on a large scale. The only downside, and it's fairly significant, is how long it takes to do. You only have to do it once, but it can be pretty annoying to wait for it to happen.

Could installs be done via internal flash memory?
 
Here is what I think the wii 2 will have as a storage medium. First, 16 GB of internal flash memory. Second, SDHC support up to 64 GB. Third, external flash and HDD support via USB ports.

Silicone Knights needs to return to Nintendo and make a sequel to Eternal Darkness. That piss poor game Too Human was a sign that the developer needs to stay with daddy, Nintendo.

Alright, allow me to give you some perspective: the average amount of space a single disc of one of my installed 360 games takes on my HDD is around 6-7 GB.  I've only had my 120 GB 360 for almost 2 months now, and I'm already down to less than 30 GB of free space.  The PS3 is around the same amount for its required installs, though that platform only has to install a single disc.  I've had my 80 GB PS3 for about a year now, and I'd already be out of space if I didn't periodically delete game installs for games I'm not currently playing.  If we're going to be serious about talking about installing games in the era of HD games, probably the minimum HDD size we should see in Wii 2 is around 100 or so GB.  I don't know the limits of Flash Memory, but I have a feeling they don't generally go that high.

As for Silicon Knights, what in the world are they up to these days?  I never heard many sales numbers for Too Human, but I doubt it sold all that well.  How are they keeping that studio afloat these days?

[NWR_insanolord]

Too Human wasn't the greatest game ever, but it was far from piss poor. It had a few issues, but I had a good time with it.

Hard drive installs, like you can do on the 360, can pretty much get rid of load times, and with the ever-increasing size of console hard drives they're becoming more feasible on a large scale. The only downside, and it's fairly significant, is how long it takes to do. You only have to do it once, but it can be pretty annoying to wait for it to happen.

Could installs be done via internal flash memory?
 
Here is what I think the wii 2 will have as a storage medium. First, 16 GB of internal flash memory. Second, SDHC support up to 64 GB. Third, external flash and HDD support via USB ports.

Silicone Knights needs to return to Nintendo and make a sequel to Eternal Darkness. That piss poor game Too Human was a sign that the developer needs to stay with daddy, Nintendo.

Alright, allow me to give you some perspective: the average amount of space a single disc of one of my installed 360 games takes on my HDD is around 6-7 GB.  The PS3 is around the same amount for its required installs, though multi-disc games don't inflate the number since it's still only one install.  If we're going to be serious about talking about installing games in the era of HD games, probably the minimum HDD size we should see in Wii 2 is around 100 or so GB.  I don't know the limits of Flash Memory, but I have a feeling they don't generally go that high.

As for Silicon Knights, what in the world are they up to these days?  I never heard many sales numbers for Too Human, but I doubt it sold all that well.  How are they keeping that studio afloat these days?

You could do that kind of capacity with solid state, but it'd cost more than Nintendo's probably willing to spend. For once, I'm actually going to agree with Kytim: a smaller amount of built in storage, with the ability for users to add to it if they desire, is probably the likeliest outcome.

[Adrock]

I believe Silicon Knights just got some funding from the Canadian government.

[broodwars]

You could do that kind of capacity with solid state, but it'd cost more than Nintendo's probably willing to spend. For once, I'm actually going to agree with Kytim: a smaller amount of built in storage, with the ability for users to add to it if they desire, is probably the likeliest outcome.

While I agree that's likely what Nintendo (being as historically cheap as they are) will do, I hope they don't.  IMO, the Wii's extremely low storage capacity crippled what developers could do with WiiWare and arguably Virtual Console, since until the SD card support came along there was nowhere to put games.  Even with the SD card support, that extremely low file size restriction probably hurts the influx of quality games more than it helps.  I don't want to see that repeated in Wii 2.  Maybe Nintendo could do something similar to what Microsoft did with the 360 and release a cheaper SKU with a low HDD capacity for the casuals, but also a more expensive SKU with a proper-sized HDD for those who need all that storage.  And either way, remove that stupid file size restriction.

[NWR_insanolord]

Well Kytim predicted 16 GB internally, which seems realistic to me, and if that's the case we're fine. The low end 360 that's out or about to come out comes with 4 GB. As for having multiple SKUs, despite what they've done on the handheld side, that doesn't seem to me like something Nintendo would want to do.

[Kytim89]

I imagine that 16 GB of internal flash storage would be more than enough to eliminate the storage restrictions on the current wii for good.
 
I also imagine that Nintendo will allow you to use internal HDD, but you, the consumer, muxt provide your own hard drive because Nintendo will not put forth the money to manufacture them. On the bottom of the wii there will be a port where you unscrew a cover and place a 2.5 inch hard drive into the console to boost its memory storage.
 
What I would like for Nintendo to with the wii 2 is allow what ever storage devices being used to bear the brunt of the files, but what ever virtual console and wiiware titles on the system are still tethered to the console for security reasons. We do not want you to run off and mass produce copies of the files.
 
Overall, I imagine Nintendo saying, "Here we are with the wii 2. We have heared the complaints of the wii storage debacle from the consumers, so we have provided every storage option for the wii 2. Now, consumers, shut up!"

[NWR_insanolord]

I also imagine that Nintendo will allow you to use internal HDD, but you, the consumer, muxt provide your own hard drive because Nintendo will not put forth the money to manufacture them. On the bottom of the wii there will be a port where you unscrew a cover and place a 2.5 inch hard drive into the console to boost its memory storage.

I don't see this happening. No matter how easy you make it (and, based on my recent upgrade of my MacBook Pro's internal drive, you can make it pretty damned easy), Nintendo's not going to like the idea of people opening up the system and swapping stuff out, especially with the much simpler and less prone to error solution of USB drives.

[Kytim89]

I also imagine that Nintendo will allow you to use internal HDD, but you, the consumer, muxt provide your own hard drive because Nintendo will not put forth the money to manufacture them. On the bottom of the wii there will be a port where you unscrew a cover and place a 2.5 inch hard drive into the console to boost its memory storage.

I don't see this happening. No matter how easy you make it (and, based on my recent upgrade of my MacBook Pro's internal drive, you can make it pretty damned easy), Nintendo's not going to like the idea of people opening up the system and swapping stuff out, especially with the much simpler and less prone to error solution of USB drives.

 
Yeah, there is that, but we technically open up the wii with the SD card slot, right? As for the external flash drive usage via the USB ports, I have a couple of projects involving a few NES cartridges and controllers that I converting into storage devices, so allowing the USB ports to be used would be doing me a favor.

[Mop it up]

It doesn't matter so much to me how much internal space is offered, as all I really care about is the ability to copy all save files. If it has that, I will be fine with it.