Topic: Brawl Delayed to February in N. America

[Pale]

I do this stuff for a living.  It's not games, but it's close enough.

My point is that nothing you are complaining about is the main game.  They are all extras.  The nature of extras is that they aren't "rushed".  They are added given a time frame.

I guarantee you Brawl was delayed for a more important reason than "we need to add more trophies."

[Mashiro]

I have no issues with saying the clones in Melee made the extra characters feel tacked on and rushed. As was said earlier as well there was originally going to be a Fire Emblem stage but it never came to fruition.

With that said, as others have said, Melee is still an amazing game and one of the few titles on the cube that made it worth the purchase and one of my favorite multiplayer games of all time.

Brawl is just setting the standard insanely high, so high that in the end Melee is going to look far less perfect in many peoples eyes. At least that is how I see it.

Edit: Brawl is most likely being delayed because they need to add or perfect something . . . something important enough to not make the christmas release date. Which is fine. Brawl is going to be as close to perfect as can be.

[Bill Aurion]

I'd take a two-month delay for more Assist Trophies and other goodies... =3

[GoldenPhoenix]

Clones are thrown in to make rosters bigger and you don't have the development time to make a unique character, not to mention I don't recall SSB: Melee being delayed much, which is strange for a title that big. Let's not even get into the lame single player mode that felt rushed.

[Pale]

Exactly.  See, Bill (and Me and most of us) would never say "that's enough assist trophies."  You can't schedule that.  It's infinite.  The developer has to say "this is when we aren't putting in any more extras."

It's not rushing, it's the only way to finish something.

[Pale]

Nevermind, this is hopeless.

For all of you if you can think of a way to make it better that's the same as being rushed.

Bah.

[Mashiro]

I dunno I enjoyed single player mode in Melee for what it was . . .

With that said Nintendo needed Melee to come out for Xmas or cube really wouuld have been dead in the water.

Wii prints money with DS so now they can take all the time they want to make the game as perfect as it can be =)

[Kairon]

Nothing is EVER finished. Just shipped.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Official:

Smash Brother Fans are more annoying and more closed minded to their game having flaws than Halo fans.

Let me put it this way, I am far more forgiving for the extras being more "rushed" then I am of fighters being clones. When a games bread and butter is the fighting/stages, those should be perfected before anything else is added.

[Mashiro]

To me there is a vast difference between something being rushed and being a bad game,

Example: Yeah Gannondorf would have been awesome with his own fighting style and not a rip of captain falcons, but it isn't going to kill the game. It's still a 9.5/10 in my book.

Ya know?

Brawl will be perfection. I'm gonna say it now. It will be as perfect as a Smash experience as gamers could hope to get. It will be . . . the perfect 10.

[Ian Sane]

"Brawl is just setting the standard insanely high, so high that in the end Melee is going to look far less perfect in many peoples eyes. At least that is how I see it."

That seems like it should be expected.  Melee pretty much rendered the original SSB obsolete and if Brawl can do the same to Melee then it's just HAL keeping the quality of the series high.

I agree with Pale though in that people are trying to think of reasons to dislike Melee.  I never heard anyone crap on that game until smash_brother started doing it.

And the single player was great because it actually, you know, had one.  Two different "story" type of modes and then all those challenges?  My brother and I spent months playing that game EVERY DAY to unlock the sound test.  There was just so much to do.  SSB had the problem that it was really didn't offer much for a single player and Melee fixed this.  I'm sure some purist will protest that the multiplayer mode suffered as a result but I sure as hell didn't notice it.  I'm not some boring tourney player who plays with all items off, one-on-one, and only on the boring flat final stage like this is Street Fighter II or something.  When friends were over the game was a blast.  When I didn't have people over there was tons to do and I enjoyed it.

I didn't like how they had clones but as Pale pointed out having them was better than not having those characters at all.  The game is still a 10.  Still in the top five Cube games.  Still a required purchase... until this February.  

[GoldenPhoenix]

It is funny, but I hated the clones long before I even came to NWR.  Also the logic that "I'd rather have clones then none at all" is ridiculous, they had time to put in all that extra stuff, why not focus on an aspect of the game that is its primary draw, the fighters and worry about the extras next. Clones are inexcusable whether it is smash brothers or any other fighter, they are lazy, rushed characters to bump up the fighter list but add nothing new to the formula besides a new look.


Also I think my point that Smash Brothers fans are completely closed minded to flaws in Melee has been proven nicely. Heck I don't think I've ever held a game in such "perfection" as people hold Melee. Only an extreme fanboi would tout an obvious flaw, that is clones, as something good. Heck let me say that the treasure hunting quest in Wind Waker was good, because hey it is better than nothing!

[ShyGuy]

Pale is right, the rest of you are wrong.

DELAY BRAWL UNTIL Wii-HiDef OR IT IS PHAIL

[Ian Sane]

"Also the logic that 'I'd rather have clones then none at all' is ridiculous"

Why?  I like having more Nintendo characters represented.  There is a subtle difference in many of the clones so if you're all leet and hardcore that might be a big deal.  It's not like if they weren't clones they would have been fully developed characters.  It was a couple clones or less characters.  I don't like having clones but having two versions of Link and being able to have Link, Zelda and Ganondorf duke it out on a Zelda themed stage is pretty neat.  The Nintendo references are part of the fun as well as dream matchups.  Ganondorf vs. Bowser.  Cool fanboy stuff that in Melee requires a clone character.  Better to have clone Ganondorf in there then to not have that match up.

Now if Brawl keeps the clones identical that will suck.  Ganondorf better have some more tweaking to make him a more unique character.

[UncleBob]

I totally understand where Pale is coming from...  How can anyone say SSBM was rushed because of the clone characters?  Why can't it simply be that the clones were added in for fun?  Perhaps someone thought it'd be neat to give Mario an alternate costume of Dr. Mario.  Then someone else thought, hey, he should throw pills instead of fireballs... etc., etc...

Could they have delayed the game and fleshed out the clones more?  Sure!  Does it mean it was "rushed" because they didn't?  Not in my book.  It's not like they cut out characters in order to put the clones in (that we know of, at least)...

Also, someone made the comment that SSBM wasn't delayed - we don't know that.  For all we know, it could have been a planned N64 title that got pushed back for the GameCube...  Remember, Nintendo's known for holding their cards close.

[Crimm]

You know, this really bummed me out at first, but just a few months ago I was complaining that I'd have to get it before Christmas to avoid being swamped when Christmas rolled around.  I think Brawl will do good things for Nintendo, but I think Mario Galaxy will be good for them too.

I do think it may have been good for Nintendo if they had a AAA DS title.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Like I said only a Smash Brothers fan would defend something like clones as a positive. I hate the excuse "Well at least they included it", I'm sorry but I don't buy that at all, I'd rather have something polished like crazy then have a bunch of extras that are thrown in with little to no care put into them. Ganondorf had potential to be a great character, but they dropped the ball big time and created a lazy Falcon clone, that added NOTHING to the game, might as well made him an assist trophy and left it at that. Also in regards to delays, people seem to forget the N64 era, there were constant delays, Nintendo has NEVER been one to keep a delay secret. Remember Smash Brothers Brawl being a launch title? Yeah exactly. When Nintendo delays and it is public, Melee didn't get that, because it was to be pushed out the door to be on the shelves be Christmas. Heck it seems most people agree it was rushed, but it is obvious some are in denial.

[NWR_pap64]

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Official:

Smash Brother Fans are more annoying and more closed minded to their game having flaws than Halo fans.

Let me put it this way, I am far more forgiving for the extras being more "rushed" then I am of fighters being clones. When a games bread and butter is the fighting/stages, those should be perfected before anything else is added.

Unfortunately, that seems to be the case here...

People, do you love the game so, so much that you are willing to defend some totally worthless characters???

I mean...DR.MARIO??? GANONDORF, THE KING OF ALL EVIL, A CAPTAIN FALCON CLONE?

I'm sorry, I know this is all a matter of personal preference, but come on!

We are not saying that Melee is the worst game ever. Its a great game that we enjoyed playing. But its hard to deny that the game could've been much more. It needed more time, but Nintendo wanted it out as soon as possible.

Denying that a great game has flaws is going beyond being a fanatic. Even truly fantastic games have flaws and there will be people that   will notice them and say negative things... DEAL WITH IT.

And for those claiming that the reason we are being negative because S_B started doing it let me tell you something. I met S_B at the old IGN Smash forums and I was eagerly awaiting Melee like all of you are doing with Brawl. I was so, so excited for Melee that when S_B posted his first negative impressions I bashed him to no end. I called him names, trolled on all the threads he made and would bully him whenever I had the chance. My passion for the game was so strong that I hated anyone that spoke ill of it. Hell, I also defended the clones! Then on Christmas 2001 I finally got the game. I was ecstatic. But as I kept playing it during my winter vacation I kept getting more and more annoyed with the game.

First of, my favorite character, Kirby, was so nerfed down it was worthless to play as him. Second, my second favorite character, Yoshi, was also nerfed down. While I enjoyed trying the new characters out I was disappointed by the fact that my favorite characters weren't the same.

Second, I was more than eager to try the new trophy mode. At first I thought it was awesome. But then when the number stopped at 290 + and realized many trophies were missing and many of them were hastily made I was crushed.

Finally, I unlocked the secret characters...Like I said, I understand Pichu, Young Link, Roy and Falco, but Dr. Mario and Ganondorf?

I then realized that even if the game was great it had flaws, flaws that could've been worked out had they had more time to work with it.

I'm honestly getting sick and tired of getting crap simply because I have negative thoughts regarding Melee and Brawl. I'm really f*cking sorry for not being a blind fanboy and just agreeing with everything I see. I play these games and I pay for them. It is my right to say what I think of them, whether they'd be positive or negative. Once more, sorry, but learn to DEAL WITH IT.

[Michael8983]

Personally I want them to take as long as it takes to make this game perfect.

However, maybe it just hasn't fully sunken in that the N64/GCN era is over, but the Wii losing such a huge holiday title does have me worried.
We still have Mario and several high profile third-party titles and the Wii is expected to sell out this Christmas regardless but . . . . what if it doesn't? The tides can change fast. after all.

[UncleBob]

I don't think anyone is denying that the clone characters are... lacking.  The disagreement is if their presence in the game takes something away from the game.

If you'd rather play the game without the clone characters, simply don't select them - you can enjoy the game exactly how it would likely have been without the clones in there.  Again, we have no evidence that a full fledged Ganondorf would have been in the game, if not for the clone.

As per the delay, again, we don't know if SSBM was delayed.  While Nintendo has been known to be public about delays, that only concerns games that have been announced.  If SSBM hadn't been announced, they're not going to do so by also announcing it had been delayed.  We simply don't know any details about the pre-release history of SSBM.

Rumor is, Nintendo had actually planned to release Tetris DS within the first six months of the DS's life - about 12-18 months earlier than when the game came out.  Yet the game was announced only two months before it was released.  Technically (assuming the rumor was true), Tetris DS was delayed - yet no one knows...

[NWR_pap64]

Quote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
I don't think anyone is denying that the clone characters are... lacking.  The disagreement is if their presence in the game takes something away from the game.

If I am not mistaken, the clones were never even planned to begin with. They were an extremely late addition, hence why their squares are misplaced on the character select menu as well as why some of them don't make sense.

And what people seem to be ignoring is the fact that the clone characters took roster spaces away from worthy characters.

Take a look at some of Brawl's newcomers; Pit, Metaknight and Wario. People wanted those characters to be in Melee, they even did lists similar to the ones we are seeing right now. Pit was one of the most requested characters in Melee. All three had a great chance of being in the game, but no, the game was rushed and in their place were clones. The biggest offenders are Dr. Mario and Ganondorf.

Dr. Mario could've easily been a costume for Mario. Ganondorf is a character rich in story and moves. They could've easily made him a great and powerful fighter. But instead he became Cpt. Falcon's clone.

Its those types of decisions that annoy me. And like I said, my issues with Melee don't lie exclusively on the clone characters.

I'm sorry if I sounded harsh earlier, but I am getting really tired of being told what to think or believe simply because my opinion is not popular.

And Ian, I am still keeping an watchful eye over Brawl, so don't think that i criticize Melee because Brawl looks to outdo it.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I think we can all agree Brawl looks EXTREMELY promising.

[UncleBob]

>"If I am not mistaken, the clones were never even planned to begin with. They were an extremely late addition, hence why their squares are misplaced on the character select menu as well as why some of them don't make sense.

And what people seem to be ignoring is the fact that the clone characters took roster spaces away from worthy characters."

These two statements seem to contradict one another.  The clones were last minute additions, yet they took away space from other characters?

How many other, full fledged characters do you think they could have added in Melee last minute had they focused on that instead of the clones?

[NWR_pap64]

Quote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
"If I am not mistaken, the clones were never even planned to begin with. They were an extremely late addition, hence why their squares are misplaced on the character select menu as well as why some of them don't make sense.

And what people seem to be ignoring is the fact that the clone characters took roster spaces away from worthy characters."

These two statements seem to contradict one another.  The clones were last minute additions, yet they took away space from other characters?

How many other, full fledged characters do you think they could have added in Melee last minute had they focused on that instead of the clones?

You didn't read my whole post...

Quote
Originally posted by: pap64
Take a look at some of Brawl's newcomers; Pit, Metaknight and Wario. People wanted those characters to be in Melee, they even did lists similar to the ones we are seeing right now. Pit was one of the most requested characters in Melee. All three had a great chance of being in the game, but no, the game was rushed and in their place were clones. The biggest offenders are Dr. Mario and Ganondorf.

[UncleBob]

I did, in fact, read your post.  You said you thought the clones were put in at the last minute.  Adding in totally new characters could not have been done at the last minute - it would have taken more time.  Could the game have been delayed and more (new) characters added into it?  I suppose (assuming that there wasn't technical reasons that the game couldn't contain more full-fledged characters) the game could have been delayed... and more characters could have been added.  Heck, if they delayed it until the end of the GameCube's life, they could have added in Wario-Ware Wario, Bowser Jr., etc., etc... But wait - if they had delayed it past the GameCube's life, they could have just released Melee on the Wii and included the online modes in Melee.  Wait!  Let's just delay Melee until the next Nintendo system comes out - then Melee could be in high def!

Heck, if Nintendo had delayed the original Legend of Zelda until 2020... I wonder how awesome it could have been.