Topic: Nintendo Wonder World: Waking the Winds of Change in The Legend of Zelda

[EasyCure]

EasyCure, YES!

That's really all I've got to respond to that.

thanks, even though i screwed up the spoiler tags lol

[Khushrenada]

I find that in the Gamecube years Nintendo was really lost in regards to where to go with their established series.  The move to 3D on the N64 really allowed them to update their series in a fresh way.  Then on the Cube it was like "Okay.  Now what?"   

I don't think Wind Waker is a bad game but there were a few things I just didn't like about it. WW just didn't work in the execution and frankly I don't think Skyward Sword did either.  TP was just blatant cookie cutter crap though and that's WORSE.  Nintendo did manage to turn things around with Mario and Super Mario Galaxy, where they had a pretty fresh twist on the formula and the execution was also perfect.  Super Mario Sunshine's problem was not that it did something new but just that the specific new idea it had in FLUDD sucked.  Galaxy's space idea however was awesome.

You've made the point about Nintendo not knowing what to do with their franchises post-64 before quite a few times and I don't disagree with you. It's true that up to the Gamecube each generation before had brought changes and upgrades to the franchises because of the new abilities/challenges gained from stronger hardware. When Gamecube came out, Nintendo had already proven that they had mastered 3D space and games and all the Gamecube gave was more power in a way. Whether or not you believe new controls can add any value to breathing life into a series, with the Gamecube, they didn't have that luxery. It was still traditional controls. Personally, it seems to me, that Nintendo's response was to make some of the best entries in all of their series.

Although you state that Wind Waker failed in execution and Sunshine's Fludd sucked and Galaxy was a turnaround as though it were fact, I highly disagree with you on all 3 points. I'm not sure why you knock the Fludd device as it basically serves as the Mario transformation in the game. For example, just like the Bee suit can let you fly and hover a bit in Galaxy, Fludd let's you do that in Sunshine. It gives you some different options of mobility and gameplay challenges. Maybe you can't fly and soar like Mario 64 but it's overall usage/gameplay advantage was limited anyways. It's only used in a few spots. Frankly, I loved the Fludd device and especially the hover ability as it helped me correct/save myself if I made a mistake. It's one of the reason's why the areas with no Fludd are more challenging. You can't correct youself if you misjump. Those zones become easier when you replay them with Fludd but I could move a lot faster in them and I could have a bit more reckless abandon in them. Can you tell me how Fludd was so sucky because I don't get it. Heck, I could spray a little water on the ground and then slide on it and speed up getting around a level instead of walking and running. Those are awesome little touches.

The complaint that I hear way more often is that it lacks variety compared to Mario 64 or Super Mario Galaxy. In Super Mario 64, you go into 15 different worlds to find 6 stars (7 with the 100 coin challenge of each level) with a few hidden levels scattered around also and in Sunshine, you stay on the island, it all has the same estectic and instead of 15 different worlds, there are 7 parts of the island you visit with 8 missions and 2 extra shines hidden in them and 1 more for the 100 coin challenge. The rest of the shines are obtained through the main Delfino hub and 24 are obtained by getting blue coins and just purchasing them. And if people want to complain about that or they don't like Bowser Jr. or the Pintas or other parts of the setting or story, I understand that. Personally, I don't have a problem with any of it and like it. (Maybe not Bowser Jr. but he doesn't break the game for me.) But I disagree that it lacks variety.

That is my biggest complaint against Mario Galaxy. It just seems highly repetative. I seem to feel about Galaxy what a lot of people feel about Sunshine or what Insanolord feels about Super Mario World for all you hardcore forum readers. I just don't get how everyone keeps rating it so highly. I beat the game and got all 120 stars but didn't beat it with Luigi and that was a couple years ago so I thought I'd pop it in again and see if my opinion might be changed especially after all the high praise it got from the recent best of Wii lists done by staff and forumers. Sadly, my save file disappeared so I've had to start again from scratch. Absence has not made the heart grow fonder in this case. I've just gotten to the fountain again and played a couple missions in that and already the game has come off repetative and boring. I might just do a review of this game as a rebuttal to all the people praising it about why I don't like it but people complain there's enough negativty around here already so I might not. Mario Galaxy was pretty much the last game I played on the Wii before pretty much going on a 2 year hiatus from Wii. Aside from cracking out Rock Band here and there with some friends, I went on a TV and movie watching catch-up phase and only played a bit of handheld gaming. I personally feel that it was because I found Mario Galaxy so unentertaining that by the time I finished it, I was getting more enjoyment out of other forms of entertainment that I just kind of stopped playing games. On the other hand, I've played and completed Mario Sunshine 100% at least 5 times possibly 6. I never played Mario 64 that much either. Sunshine is an amazing example of how to do a 3D platforming game.

At this point, I've written another essay which seems easy for me to do lately but just touching on Windwaker, I haven't played many Zelda games. As of right now, I've only played 5 of them (although I've currently got a copy of all but the GB Color games) and of those 5, I've completed them all once except for Wind Waker which I've played through and completed 3 times and enough time has passed that I would be willing to play it again. All the things that people cite as flaws, I never had a problem and I totally enjoy sailing.

[Infinitys_End]

Nope, Wind Waker isn't as great as everyone makes it out to be.  The ocean is boring and only tolerable after you get the warp spell.  The Triforce hunt is again, boring, and barely tolerable.  The dungeons are easy.  The bosses are cool, but then are reused at the end (dev time constraints?).  And then there's that part where Jabun just GIVES you the pearl without having to go through a dungeon first since I think there was more dev time constraints so they had to nix it.


The only redeeming quality is the Ganon battle at the end, which I truly loved.  But that alone doesn't save this game.  And don't get me started on that grueling figurine mini quest, which absolutely was not worth it.  Almost as worthless as the Skultula quest in Ocarina.  What is it with pointless mini quests in Zelda games?!

[TJ Spyke]

Wind Waks IS as good as everyone says, easily the best Zelda game and one of the best GameCube games. The ocean is not that bad. The Triforce hunt isn't hard unless you were lazy and not doing anything before that since it's easy to get the maps before then.

And you are bitching about an OPTIONAL sidequest? You don't have to do it. And to whine about it is beyond nitpicking since it has nothing to do with the actual game. It would be like whining about how collecting all the trophies in Smash Bros. doesn't get you anything cool.

[Khushrenada]

Nope, Wind Waker isn't as great as everyone makes it out to be.  The ocean is boring and only tolerable after you get the warp spell.  The Triforce hunt is again, boring, and barely tolerable.  The dungeons are easy.  The bosses are cool, but then are reused at the end (dev time constraints?).  And then there's that part where Jabun just GIVES you the pearl without having to go through a dungeon first since I think there was more dev time constraints so they had to nix it.


The only redeeming quality is the Ganon battle at the end, which I truly loved.  But that alone doesn't save this game.  And don't get me started on that grueling figurine mini quest, which absolutely was not worth it.  Almost as worthless as the Skultula quest in Ocarina.  What is it with pointless mini quests in Zelda games?!

Oh boy.

The ocean is boring? I guess the empty Hyrule field in Ocarina is better? What about the multiple vast expanses of land in Twilight Princess? It's no different. Yes, it would be great if every square had an island like Windmill Island full of characters and stuff to do but they all had some objective and purpose whether it was getting an item or map. There are many times I sailed the ocean without warping so that I could scan around for sunken treasures or enjoy the scenery of islands I'd been too or yet to see pass around in the distances. I could come upon pirate subs and outposts. Sometimes I'd have to engage in battle with a giant squid. I felt like a master of the ocean.

The Triforce hunt is no big deal since I'm already out trying to explore everything and check off all the things I have to do in squares like pirate outposts and solve an island's puzzle or get its bounty. I liked the aspect of a treasure hunt. I found the dungeons just fine and since this was only the second Zelda game I played, I still found them difficult and got stuck a couple times. That's all relative. I don't care that Jabun just gives me a pearl. I'd never thought that there was a dungeon missing until people started complaining about it after the fact. It makes sense since you have to earn the other two pearls but I just considered it a prelude to the Tower of the Gods dungeon. I think there is too much focus on dungeons sometimes. Twilight Princess basically ends with you just going through 3 consecutive dungeons pretty much. I prefered this approach of fewer dungeons and more exploration over that approach.

If you have an issue with reusing the bosses at the end, that's fine. I can understand and don't get the purpose of doing that except that it helped me with my figurine quest. And as for the figurine quest, that has been my favorite sidequest in any Zelda game I've played so far. I liked the photography aspect and walking through my galleries and zooming in on the details of all the statues. It's like the Smash Bros. trophies. I never hear anyone complaining about having to unlock those (unless they think it is too challenging). I prefered that over the Skulltala challenge way more or the Poe/Bug collecting challenges in Twilight. Frankly, the only worthy sidequests are ones that give you a new item or heart peice in a Zelda game.

[Ian Sane]

I think the Spaceworld graphics switcheroo makes it hard to get a good read on Wind Waker and younger Zelda fans that weren't following the series when the game first came out will have a more accurate opinion of it.

Almost every Zelda fan took some side in the debate when they first showed Wind Waker.  You either liked the graphics or you didn't.  I think this taints our opinions on the game.  If you liked the graphics, then Wind Waker better have been a damn good game or you look like a fool.  If you didn't like the graphics, then the game must be flawed in some way so that you could be right about the Zelda you wanted.  When Wind Waker was new we would have been going in with our own opinion about the graphics and thus would intentionally look for reasons to support our argument.  A younger fan that was not part of the graphics pissing match has no pride on the line and thus can provide a more unbiased opinion.

WW discussion comes up a lot and it's because of the graphics switcheroo.  Same with TP but that again is related to the graphics switch because that's from Nintendo switching BACK as a direct response to WW.  WW is either a disgrace or the best Zelda ever and both opinions are so extreme I have to assume that they're biased.

[EasyCure]

but this thread was regarding how different WW was from other Zelda's, now if it was the definitive Zelda experience or not, since that will always be subjective. I hate these arguments. Next topic.

[Mop it up]

I don't like arguments about Zelda games having weak stories only because most Zelda titles revolve around Link saving Zelda for whatever reason, hence "the legend of" part; hero goes on a quest to save princess, faces many dangers on his journey (and for the most part) alone.

I don't know whether or not I was one of the people at which this was directed, but this isn't what I was saying. I'm fine with the actual content of Zelda stories, it's the presentation that lacks for me. As just one example, I think it'd be better, especially in Skyward Sword, if Link had dialogue. The kinds of stories in more recent Zelda games, Skyward Sword most of all, don't really fit the silent protagonist anymore. Skyward Sword's Link is stuck in between the two styles, he reacts to things and clearly talks to people even though we can't hear what he says, so he's not really a player avatar anymore but also not quite his own character either. I would prefer him to become his own character since he's closer to that as is, but at the least, they should pick one style and stick with it instead of hovering between the two.

That's the main thing I'd want to see, but that's just me.

[EasyCure]

I don't like arguments about Zelda games having weak stories only because most Zelda titles revolve around Link saving Zelda for whatever reason, hence "the legend of" part; hero goes on a quest to save princess, faces many dangers on his journey (and for the most part) alone.

I don't know whether or not I was one of the people at which this was directed, but this isn't what I was saying. I'm fine with the actual content of Zelda stories, it's the presentation that lacks for me. As just one example, I think it'd be better, especially in Skyward Sword, if Link had dialogue. The kinds of stories in more recent Zelda games, Skyward Sword most of all, don't really fit the silent protagonist anymore. Skyward Sword's Link is stuck in between the two styles, he reacts to things and clearly talks to people even though we can't hear what he says, so he's not really a player avatar anymore but also not quite his own character either. I would prefer him to become his own character since he's closer to that as is, but at the least, they should pick one style and stick with it instead of hovering between the two.

That's the main thing I'd want to see, but that's just me.

If I wanted to call you out I would have

I do agree that presentation wise there are things that can be done better, like Link having dialogue to some extent, but it doesn't bother me because I play the game in order to experience the adventure, not the story. Honestly, I wouldn't have any problems with Nintendo making a new Zelda in the vein of the original LoZ..

Have an intro similar to Wind Wakers to set up the story, then throw you in the game world with only a vague sense of what to do, and explore EVERYTHING. I don't care if there are only 10 NPC's to talk to and only have 1 sentence to say.

[Caliban]

A bajillion years later, and we're still arguing which is the better Zelda game. Sham... it's Zelda II of course.

[EasyCure]

A bajillion years later, and we're still arguing which is the better Zelda game. Sham... it's Zelda II of course.

I dunno about that.. I don't mind the side scrolling like I hear most people complain about,what gets me is the overworld traveling, I just hate that style.. everything else was fun, the game was quite difficult and it by FAR had the best game over screen of any Zelda game - and that cannot be argued.

[ThePerm]

I like how Zelda fans are so divided about which one is awesome and which one is terds.

I was in college when Wind Waker came out so i'm not going to have some crazy nostalgic feelings over it. I really liked it though. It did some attention to detail type things that Twilight Princess didn't do.

Majora's mask was awesome though. It had a different attention to detail thing going on. Most people don't like the 3 day thing. I liked the 3 day thing because it gave characters schedules. Shenmue did the character scheduling thing better though. The only problem with Shenmue was you would be sitting around and waiting for a long time. They didn't add a time skip until Shenmue 2(or did they lol, its been soooo long since iv played). The Majora's mask characters were much more interesting though. If Nintendo were to pull the Majora's mask thing they should make it more than just 3 days.

so i really dont know that much about last story...so its an action rpg? Not a jrpg type game?