Topic: XboxOne ~News/Rumor/Speculation~ Biggest Console Released This Gen!!

[MaryJane]

@BnM, and whoever agreed with him (I forgot already...)

As speakers of the English language you need to understand something called connotation. The literal definition of mediocre is 'of moderate quality' and yet it is quite an insult to call someone or something mediocre or middling, as opposed to 'middle class', 'middle of the road' or even moderate.

Sure the literal definition of gimmick isn't a bad one, but if you were to look only at the way Ian used it (not to mention everyone else who speaks English and knows the word) it is obviously a word that bears a negative connotation, as he and other used the word to denegrate a product's feature(s).

Do you know that when the computer mouse was invented, people said it was a gimmick that would never catch on?

For me, a gimmick is, as I believe Ian or someone else said, a useless add-on. The touchscreen, and the dual screens were definitely not that, yes in some games they are useless, but they are not useless to the system itself.

I am of the belief Nintendo knows what they are doing when it comes to game design and will use 3D to enhance immersion. Even 'headtracking depth 3D' is ised to enhance gamplay, so why should we expect autostereoscopic 3D to be any less? And, if all does it make games look cool, then graphical improvements are also a (negatively connotated) gimmick.

[BlackNMild2k1]

The touchscreen was a gimmick and so was the dual screens.

It (the touchscreen) just turned out to be a very useful one that has caught on on almost all mobile devices.

In marketing language, a gimmick is a unique or quirky special feature that makes something "stand out" from its contemporaries.

Motion Capture is the gimmick for Kinect, WiiHD is the gimmick for Move and 3D is the gimmick for 3DS

I already stated this without the nifty wikilink, but thanks for the validation.  I hate how Gimmicks are perceived as bad, because of the term Gimmicky.

Sometimes it's as if some people just skim a post(missing the point) or post before finishing reading a thread and have to see the same point made differently by a second person before it's noticed. But it happens to me all the time and it's good to know that someone else is on the same page as you. But my post was in direct response to Adrock (who now has a big red palm print across his face for nothing ) and then again for Chozo.

[Spak-Spang]

Its nice to know that someone else validates a point so you aren't left hanging.  Thanks.  :^)

[BlackNMild2k1]

@BnM, and whoever agreed with him (I forgot already...)

As speakers of the English language you need to understand something called connotation.

So now I need to learn English....

The literal definition of mediocre is 'of moderate quality' (me·di·o·cre: Of only moderate quality; not very good) and yet it is quite an insult to call someone or something mediocre or middling, as opposed to 'middle class', 'middle of the road' or even moderate.

Well no ****. because moderate quality means it's not very good. it is an insult. I inserted the definition into your quote

Sure the literal definition of gimmick isn't a bad one, but if you were to look only at the way Ian used it (not to mention everyone else who speaks English and knows the word) it is obviously a word that bears a negative connotation, as he and other used the word to denegrate a product's feature(s).

So when people skew the meaning of a word so that it fits their argument, and other people start to adapt that skewed definition of the word, I should just let it go instead of informing them of the actual definition so that they can see that it isn't necessarily something negative even though you could spin it that use it that way. Let's all stay ignorant.

Do you know that when the computer mouse was invented, people said it was a gimmick that would never catch on?

For me, a gimmick is, as I believe Ian or someone else said, a useless add-on. The touchscreen, and the dual screens were definitely not that, yes in some games they are useless, but they are not useless to the system itself.

So everyone was wrong, you only want the word to stand for it's negative connotation and touch screen & dual screens are sometimes a "gimmick" and sometimes not..... go on.

I am of the belief Nintendo knows what they are doing when it comes to game design and will use 3D to enhance immersion. Even 'headtracking depth 3D' is ised to enhance gamplay, so why should we expect autostereoscopic 3D to be any less? And, if all does it make games look cool, then graphical improvements are also a (negatively connotated) gimmick.

point is that negatively connotated or not, a gimmick is a gimmick and they will always be used till the end of time. Some you may not like and some may be utterly pointless, but the point of a gimmick, any gimmick, is to get your attention. 3D is a gimmick, touch screen is a gimmick, R.O.B. was a gimmick and a Lexus that parks itself is a gimmick. some are useful, some are cool, some are stupid and others are here to stay, but all are gimmicks.

[MaryJane]

Lol.
Firstly, I didn't say that you need to learn English, I said as an English speaker you need to understand connotation. If you're equating understanding connotation to speaking good English, then we're on the same page. (that was a joke)

Your argument about moderate only reaffirms mine. It is no longer good enough to be moderate, also defined "avoiding extremes in behavior or expression: observing reasonable limits". In other words, neither the best nor the worst yet now the word's connotation leads it to also mean not very good instead of just good enough.

Language grows, moves, and even shifts, as we do the same. We no longer speak like the people who came before us. One example, gay. It has gone from meaning happy, to homosexual, and to a certain degree, bad, unpopular, or awkward, like; "electric cars are gay". (not a sentiment I agree with). Other examples include the term 'down low' and when it was cool to say 'waaaaassssuuuppp'. This is why linguistics exists. Because languange changes, and people study and record those changes.

Gimmick is an unflattering word, and MORE IMPORTANTLY, in the context of the discusion we were having, it was being used in a disparaging manner, and that is what was being discussed; whether the addition of 3D to the DS line was simply a useless add-on, or worthy uprgrade.

I mean no animosity or arrogance in my posts, so I don't know why you're taking this so personal. It's okay to disagree with my opinions, but connotation is a fact of language. It's not like I just made this up for the sake of argument, it is what happens to our speech, even in a single sentence. How you say something or the context of a word in a written sentence can radically alter its meaning, and in this case, it's really not all that much a radical altering, just a slightly negative connotation.

Saying something was done solely as a differentiating factor between competition, is a lot less flattering than calling it an industry changing innovation; like the Wiimote, and DS touch controls are.

[Mop it up]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who tries to preserve the original definitions of words. I'm not sure how "gimmick" became synonymous with "cheap gimmick," is it really so hard to add an adjective?

[Adrock]

Because it's often used in that context. In my previous post in this topic, I was specifically replying to this:

The DS had all the gimmicky bullshit with the touchscreen that attracted rubes.

That certainly sounds denigrating so I inferred it as such. If it makes you feel better, I'll amend my statement: The touchscreen was a cheap gimmick? /facepalm

[Guitar Smasher]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who tries to preserve the original definitions of words. I'm not sure how "gimmick" became synonymous with "cheap gimmick," is it really so hard to add an adjective?

Apparently so.  But then this isn't that uncommon here.  Take "casual" for instance (oh no, is he really starting this?):

By any reasonable definition, it means "someone who plays games occasionally".  You know, as opposed to someone who plays every single latest release (see "hardcore").  However, a portion of our community (Ian Sane) use the term to describe anyone who plays crap, doesn't appreciate effort, will buy whatever the TV says to, and is generally retarded.  Which is ironic, because by the reasonable definition, Ian is very much a casual gamer (as he describes himself, and also how I identify myself).

Incidentally, if you substitute in the "n-word" into any posts where he mentions "casuals", you'll really see how far he stretches the definition.  It's also worth a laugh each time.

[Adrock]

Incidentally, if you substitute in the "n-word"

N_GGERS

Hint: People who annoy you

[MaryJane]

The "n-word" literally means ignorant person, like a person so ignorant they would flippantly use such a term. And ignorant people annoy me.

@Mop
You going to try and preserve physical books from eReaders? Newspapers from blogs? Racism from logic? Change is inevitable.

[BranDonk Kong]

The "n-word" literally means ignorant person...

No, it doesn't. Some people use it in that way in order to try and justify using the word in general (or to try to not look like a bigot), but that is not what it means. It was created a derogatory slang for the Spanish word negro. this kind of discussion should have nothing to do with "general gaming" (though if you've ever been on Xbox Live, you'll see that they go hand-in-hand), but I had to point that out.

[Ian Sane]

I think comparing my use of the word "gimmick" to the n-word is pretty extreme.

Anyway, I think gimmicks are dumb and shallow and only gullable people are impressed by them.  So, yeah, there is a negative connotation.  And that include the DS touchscreen as I see it as a borderline useless feature and the DS didn't really start rolling until devs stopped forcing it into every game.  Zelda on the DS sucks and it is entirely because of the touchscreen.  Nintendo's insistence on pushing the touchscreen on us resulted in my favourite videogame series controlling like such **** that I actually ignored Spirit Tracks entirely.  Zelda is the best and yet I intentionally skipped a title.  That sucks.

A gimmick doesn't matter if it it doesn't impede on gameplay.  I have no problem with Move for example because I can play the PS3 games I like without it interfering.  I can do that with a lot of DS games but couldn't with Zelda.  It's really hard to do that on the Wii which is annoying.  R.O.B. was an obvious gimmick but thankfully Super Mario Bros wasn't forced to use it.

R.O.B. worked and the Wii remote worked.  The concept is sound marketing.  So I think that will become more common as the benefits of improved hardware become less obvious to the general public.  And I don't care as long is it doesn't ruin games I want to play.

I would consider a gimmick to be a novelty that adds no significant value.  Otherwise I would just call it a feature.

To get this on topic, I figure MS will need one to attract attention to a new Xbox.  I think the amount of people that would be impressed by just a hardware upgrade at this point is too small.

[Adrock]

You've basically just redefined an entire word in the English language for your own purposes. Once people start using your home-made dictionary (presumably bound in human flesh and inked in blood), we'll all accept your definitions.

I would consider a gimmick to be a novelty that adds no significant value.  Otherwise I would just call it a feature.

My response remains: Some of the most inventive games on DS use the touchscreen. Granted, some just use the touchscreen for the hell of it (I'm looking at you, New Super Mario Bros.). The touchscreen gave developers options. Some used it well, some did not. That's still no different than any other controller.

If you don't like the controls of a particular game, play a different game. Just because you don't like something that someone else does, doesn't make them gullible and you well-informed so please get off your high horse. They get it, you do not. The only real solution to that is to put that game down, pick up a different one, and, no offense, shut the hell up. Whining about it isn't going to make your day more fun. "Wah, Nintendo won't make games just for me and only me." They're making a lot of money not listening to you. I'd say they're doing some things right.

[Ian Sane]

You've basically just redefined an entire word in the English language for your own purposes.

Bullshit.  People have used the term "gimmick" with a negative connotation for longer then I've been alive.  Have you honestly never heard anyone refer to something as "just a gimmick" with the obvious implication that it is of low quality or value?  It gets used all the time.  I'd honestly say that I had never heard anyone use the term "gimmick" in a postive sense until it started being applied to Nintendo products like the DS or Wii and became a dirty word with Nintendo fans.  Otherwise any other time I have heard someone use that word they were associating "gimmick" with novelties that provide no real value or substance.  It was used to desribe Kiss's makeup, spoilers on mini-vans, holographic foil comic covers and Crystal Pepsi.
 
But this has little to do with the Xbox 360 successor.

[Adrock]

Bullshit.  People have used the term "gimmick" with a negative connotation for longer then I've been alive.  Have you honestly never heard anyone refer to something as "just a gimmick" with the obvious implication that it is of low quality or value?

Jesus mother, man.... this is only a few posts above yours.

Because it's often used in that context. In my previous post in this topic, I was specifically replying to this:

The DS had all the gimmicky bullshit with the touchscreen that attracted rubes.

That certainly sounds denigrating so I inferred it as such. If it makes you feel better, I'll amend my statement: The touchscreen was a cheap gimmick? /facepalm

[Mop it up]

@Mop
You going to try and preserve physical books from eReaders? Newspapers from blogs? Racism from logic? Change is inevitable.

I don't know what anything you listed has to do with language, so I'll stay focused. Change isn't always a good thing or necessary, and in the case of language, once it is established, it shouldn't be altered. New words can be added, but existing words should remain as they are. Language works only when the persons involved understand the meaning being conveyed, and if people keep twisting words to mean whatever they want, things are going to get even more confusing than they already are. At this rate, I wouldn't be surprised if English devolves into grunts and finger pointing just so people understand.

[MaryJane]

If what you say is true Mop, many languages wouldn't even exist. The whole world should still be speaking gaelic(sp?), latin, greek, ancient egyptian (one of the most changed languages), hebrew, and whatever languages the Mongols and other ancient Asian civilizations spoke. English is a mash up of different languages, and if those ancient people had to decided to keep language 'pure' it wouldn't exist. Unfortunately, this 'general consensus' form of language has side effects, like their being a list of 'bad words' whose meanings are actually innocuous, especially with today's connotations.

What you defined as language, conveying a meaning, is actually the definition of communication, of which language is one channel. Points and grunts are an effective form of simple communication, and by your reasoning, we should still be doing just that, if we were to actually preserve things.

Should we also go back to the ancient and complex writing systems of symbols and drawings? The Chinese and Japanese have managed to preserve the symbols of their written language, but even the meanings of those symbols have changed, and continue to change as both civilizations continue to modernize them.

As I said before, liguistics exists for this very reason; language changes.

Even regionally in the U.S English is not preserved, but you wish to preserve it through time? It is preserved historically, since we know we both speak and write differently than English speakers even a couple hundred years ago (we no longer say nor write things like 'ye olde') but it could never be preserved in the sense you speak of. The other examples I used were to show that things inevitably change.

This is almost like the 3DTV argument in this thread and another, just because a few people may not want to see the changes, doesn't mean they won't occur. People are still saying motion controls are a gimmick, when they have bred a whole new section of gaming.

It's like people who argue that the world is flat; their beliefs don't change fact.

[Mop it up]

You're acting like I said language never should have evolved. The key in what I said lies in the phrase "once it's established." The word "gimmick" already has an established definition, so I see no reason to change it to something else when the same meaning can be had by adding an adjective, such as "cheap," "pointless," "worthless," etc. I know people like to make language their own, but I don't agree with it. I do my part to preserve words, at the least to keep my sanity.

Technology is a different matter entirely. I won't get into that subject, but it isn't anything like language; it's physical things, and those can always get better.

Also, my name is Mop it up.

[BlackNMild2k1]

You guys are taking this way too far off topic. I merely meant that even though the word GIMMICK is being used negatively, the word itself is not inherently negative even if you choose to use it that way. Most things advertised to anyone is done by exploiting some sort of gimmick which is meant to capture your attention long enough to either get you to want/use/buy the product regardless if you want to see that specific feature as a gimmick or not.

This is a topic on the next Xbox and all things that are related to it involving the world of gaming. So lets save the philosophical linguistics history lessons for another topic.

p.s. Motion controls are a gimmick

[Stogi]

Wow. You guys must be bored to bring up this stupid argument yet again.

[Chozo Ghost]

This is ridiculous. People here are arguing about what the proper meaning of a word is. I thought this was a video game site. I come here to ROT my brain, not enlighten it.

[Adrock]

More importantly, my Army of Darkness reference went unnoticed. /sad panda

[nickmitch]

Xbox 720 is a stupid name.

[Chozo Ghost]

I think they should call it Xbox 4, and then just quietly ignore the fact there was never such a thing as an Xbox 2.

[MaryJane]

@Mop it up

Okay, so who decides when a language is established? How can any generation tell another that it was okay for us to change the language, but not you? Humans are the masters of our selves. We have instincts (id), but we have an overriding ego and super-ego by which we make decisions. It is because of this that we are not only responsible for our actions, but in control of the aspects of our world. There is no higher power demanding that our language be a certain way, and as a people we can decide to do with it what we want. Bad words are only considered bad because we as a society say they are, whixh is something I don't agree with, but I'm not going to act like it doesn't exist. So if we as a society say that a word has a negative connotation, guess what? It has one.

@complainers
Why should it bother you what other people are discussing? I could see if there was some relevant thread where this discussion is taking place, like how every thread about Sony, Apple, and MS breaks into, 'what does this mean for Nintendo' and then discusses the affected aspect of Nintendo which is already being discussed in other threads, but that's not what is happening here. Take it easy, and if you aren't smart enough to take part, ignore it; you should be used to that from your school days or should I say school daze. (that was a joke, not meant to be insulting)

Edit: Unless I'm mistaken, BnM made up the name Xbox 720. So if you don't like the name, it's a complete nonissue.