Topic: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!

[BlackNMild2k1]

300,000 PS3′s Were Seized, Valued at €43 million

As we speak, the future of PlayStation 3′s in the Netherlands hangs in the balance, and with the country being Sony’s main point of import for PS3s into Europe, the outcome of a legal battle between LG and Sony affects the whole continent.

In The Hague, Netherlands, Sony and LG are disputing whether the PS3 infringes on several LG patents right now, but are facing an “uphill battle” 10 days ago, LG used a unique Dutch law that allows items to be seized before a ruling was made, confiscating PS3′s in Sony’s Tilburn Centre. Now, during the court case, the number and value of PS3′s seized has apparently been revealed.

Gamer.nl reports (translated):

In Sony’s distribution center in Tilburg last week 225,000 PlayStation 3′s were seized. The other consoles have been taken by Customs at the port of Rotterdam and Schiphol. The value of the seized PlayStation 3′s is 43 million euros.

Florian Mueller – who we interviewed yesterday – also reported on the figures, but warned they have yet to be confirmed:

1st report from The Hague (caution: not yet corroborated!): 300K PS3s seized in NL, 225K in warehouse, 75K at customs, value ~ €43 million.

*Update* – Mueller has backed up the original source, claiming further proof that the figures are indeed correct:

I have now heard from a 2nd, independent source that roughly 300,000 PlayStations have been seized in Holland.

Gamer.nl also revealed that a full court case will be held on November 18th, that will delve into the legitimacy of LG’s claims.

LG supposedly wants 350million Euros to settle, which includes current "damages" and a guarantee on future PS3 sales.


PS3s seized in Sony-LG patent dispute

Dutch police have seized several thousand PlayStation 3s at Sony's biggest European warehouse in the latest stage of its acrimonious patent battle with LG.

LG has won a court order enabling it to seize all new PS3 across the Netherlands – including those already in Dutch homes – in a dispute that centres on Sony's allegedly infringing use of Blu-ray technology belonging to LG.
[...]
LG argues that Sony PS3s infringe a number of its patents relating to playback of Blu-ray discs. The Korean company has been granted an investigation into the PS3's Blu-ray use by the US international trade commission, after seeking a "permanent exclusion order ... excluding entry into the United States" of the games console.

Tomorrow's court battle will be one of the first times the Asian giants have come head to head in patent disputes stretching almost seven years.

LG is likely to apply for the consoles to be destroyed, while Sony will apply for the blockade to be lifted. A court judgment on what happens next could be returned tomorrow or in the coming days.

damn....

Better hide all yo PS3's cause they snatchin all yo consoles up!!

LG: "180 million U.S. dollars damage Sony Patent Infringement"

The case between Sony and LG about possible patent infringement of Sony's side with the PlayStation 3 is currently underway in The Hague and our raving reporter Jelle has the latest news. LG's lawyer has just been speaking and according to him is the loss of patent infringement by Sony for LG to between 150 million and 180 million U.S. dollars.

Use of the lawsuit is the alleged violation of a number of Blu-ray patents LG by Sony (among others) the PlayStation 3. The value of these patents is according to LG at $ 2.50 per PlayStation 3 down. A simple calculation of PlayStation 3's sold 50 million times $ 2.50 shows that the proportion lost in the eyes of LG increases to 125 million U.S. dollars. In addition, there are other Blu-ray devices from Sony that would violate the patents, bringing the total income lost by LG at between 150 million and 180 million U.S. dollars is estimated. LG is the solution in this case that Sony purchase a license for that patent and a bank guarantee of $350,000,000 issues.

and everything in the dispute so far, including court documents
http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/03/showdown-between-lg-and-sony-over.html

[UncleBob]

Since the court ordered it, then it's 100% right, right?

[lolmonade]

LG has won a court order enabling it to seize all new PS3 across the Netherlands – including those already in Dutch homes – in a dispute that centres on Sony's allegedly infringing use of Blu-ray technology belonging to LG.

How horrifying.  So when are these people going to get refunded for their systems that are going to be confiscated?  I would be furious if I were one of these people that had their PS3's confiscated.
 
It's typical.  The real loser of all this squabbling between LG & Sony are the end users.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I doubt LG will be kicking down doors and confiscating PS3's. That would make consumers hate LG and probably never buy an LG product again.
But they will continue to stop any more people from buying PS3's because that hurts Sony where is hurts the most right now, and that is in their wallet (current and future earnings).

But Sony brought this on themselves, everything leading up to this whole mess could have been handled much better than it has been. All of this is a Public Black Eye and Sony doesn't really have a pair of sunglasses big enough to hide the bruises.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Court lifts LG’s injunction against Sony setting 300,000 PS3s free
http://www.vg247.com/2011/03/10/court-lifts-lg%E2%80%99s-injunction-against-sony-300000-ps3s-set-free/

Sony appealed the customs blockade, and the court has now lifted the injunction with no more seizures to be applied. LG has also been ordered to pay Sony’s €130,000 in legal fees with an additional €200,000 to be added for each day it fails to pony up the dough.

FOSS Patents owner Florian Mueller said: “If this is true, it is only related to the prejudgment seizure order. This means Sony can resume the distribution of PlayStations across Europe for now, but there will be a full-fledged legal proceeding to determine whether there is an infringement – and if so, how much Sony owes LG for it.”

http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/03/lg-achieved-seizure-of-300000.html

the key reason for the court to lift the seizure order was that this kind of measure didn't seem fair given the history of negotiations between the parties. The ruling didn't only overturn the prejudgment seizure order but also told LG to inform the Dutch customs authority and ensure that no further confiscations would happen.

Whew. Crisis Averted. Everybody get back to work, nothing to see here..... for now.

[Ian Sane]

Being able to seize systems from people's homes is horrific.  While I'm glad that this has been lifted, I'm upset that the very idea is even a possibility.  The people who bought PS3s didn't do anything wrong.  It isn't like they bought them out of someone's van in a alley.  They bought them in a store.  "Hi, we'll just seize your contraband that was not contraband when you bought it and give you no refund."

Scary stuff.  False alarm or not, it should not even be a possibility.  The very idea is a nightmare.

[Morari]

Scary stuff.  False alarm or not, it should not even be a possibility.  The very idea is a nightmare.

It is very frightening. Of course, it's not too different than what Sony is doing to PS3 modders. The difference being that modders actually have had their homes raided and their equipment confiscated.

[UncleBob]

Being able to seize systems from people's homes is horrific.  While I'm glad that this has been lifted, I'm upset that the very idea is even a possibility.  The people who bought PS3s didn't do anything wrong.  It isn't like they bought them out of someone's van in a alley.  They bought them in a store.  "Hi, we'll just seize your contraband that was not contraband when you bought it and give you no refund."

Scary stuff.  False alarm or not, it should not even be a possibility.  The very idea is a nightmare.

This is my *guess*, but I would assume the consumers would have recourse for going after SONY for selling them product that SONY (if LG is correct) had no right to sell them in the first place.

[broodwars]

Scary stuff.  False alarm or not, it should not even be a possibility.  The very idea is a nightmare.

It is very frightening. Of course, it's not too different than what Sony is doing to PS3 modders. The difference being that modders actually have had their homes raided and their equipment confiscated.

Let's wait and see what the courts say on the matter of the modders before we declare them saints and martyrs, shall we?

In any case, I'm glad to see that the judge saw reason and put a hold on the seizure of PS3s until the case is resolved.  There's no reason for regular consumers to get pulled into a questionable fight between two corporations over copyright issues.  That sort of thing probably wouldn't happen in the U.S. due to breaking at least one or two Constitutional Amendments, but I feel for our fellow gamers in Europe where this is not the case.

Incidentally, I don't know if anyone else saw but Sony put out PS3 firmware update 3.60 (I think that was the number, anyway).  Supposedly, according to hackers who have seen the new security, the PS3 is temporarily hack-resistant again with the known holes in the system plugged (much more than in previous firmware updates).  I'll be curious to see how long that'll last.

[Stogi]

It hasn't. People don't need to hack 3.6 in order to get online. They can just spoof it while staying on 3.55.

[BranDonk Kong]

You can use software on your computer that basically lets you be on PSN, without PSN actually seeing you. Or you can spoof like Unagi mentioned.

[broodwars]

The continuing saga of George Hotz has taken an interesting turn, as the hacker has fled to South America to avoid following the court order to hand over his hacking equipment.  He also apparently lied about never having had a Playstation Network account, as Sony has tracked one of his down.

For Hotz to claim innocence of the crimes he has been accused of will be pretty difficult now.  Running from the Law never looks good to either a judge or jury.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Couldn't he have just cloned his drives minus all teh kiddy porn he was trying to hide and then hand them over to the authorities like the judge asked?

Exactly what tools does a hacker have that he could physically hand over? if it's all data, then couldn't he just also not put that on a cloned drive he was about to hand over?

& I really don't understand this case, but how is showing that California had the most interest in what he was doing reason to have his trial in a California court. Isn't he still "violating" some law in his home state and therefore should be trialed where he broke the law?
Also, how is proving that a PSN account was made from his PS3 prove that he was the one that made the account? and how does proving that it was his PSN account give more than enough reason to have this case heard in California when everything that happened happened in Jersey? Can someone explain these things to me.


But yes, "fleeing" the country (assuming he isn't on a pre-planned vacation) really doesn't look good in the eyes of the court and will not win favorable judgement from a jury either. It makes you look really guilty of something even if you have done nothing wrong.

[broodwars]

Couldn't he have just cloned his drives minus all teh kiddy porn he was trying to hide and then hand them over to the authorities like the judge asked?

Exactly what tools does a hacker have that he could physically hand over? if it's all data, then couldn't he just also not put that on a cloned drive he was about to hand over?

& I really don't understand this case, but how is showing that California had the most interest in what he was doing reason to have his trial in a California court. Isn't he still "violating" some law in his home state and therefore should be trialed where he broke the law?
Also, how is proving that a PSN account was made from his PS3 prove that he was the one that made the account? and how does proving that it was his PSN account give more than enough reason to have this case heard in California when everything that happened happened in Jersey? Can someone explain these things to me.

Personally, I've never bought the case that Sony is making that he should be tried in California.  The alleged crime happened in the state he was living in.  The significance of the PSN account is that it makes him potentially guilty of perjury, which is a crime in itself.  Otherwise, I don't see the relevance of it, either.

But yes, "fleeing" the country (assuming he isn't on a pre-planned vacation) really doesn't look good in the eyes of the court and will not win favorable judgement from a jury either. It makes you look really guilty of something even if you have done nothing wrong.

That's the thing that baffles me about this case, as well as the one in Germany where Sony raided the hacker's house: I don't agree with it, but there is legal precedence in both cases that gave the hackers a reasonably good case.  But both have now done things that make them definitely look guilty, so both have hurt their own cases and now both probably stand to lose.  Had Hotz simply fought the issue in court as requested, there's a high chance he probably would have won through legal precedent on the iPhone.  Now, I don't think that's likely.

[BlackNMild2k1]

What did the German guy do to potentially sink his own case?

[broodwars]

What did the German guy do to potentially sink his own case?

Upload all his hacking information up on the internet, as he "threatened" to do when Sony originally contacted him.  When you have the police raiding your house, and you upload information potentially dangerous to Sony up on the internet, whether it's legal or not it still looks bad.

[Nick DiMola]

What an idiot. This is not going to end well for anyone.

[BranDonk Kong]

You guys are getting your "news" from bullshit sites. He has not fled the country, he's on vacation. What is the point of fleeing a civil case anyway - especially one that isn't even in the courtroom yet? The PSN account info potentially has some merit, but he said " to the best of his knowledge" he doesn't have a PSN account. Also he did apparently delete some stuff off of his hard drive, but he may have done that before They ever asked for it, or at least before he was ordered to hand over the physical media. He even took a picture and put it online with him wearing an LG-branded Argentina Boca Juniors (LG-sponsored, a jab at Sony no doubt) jersey.

[Chozo Ghost]

The continuing saga of George Hotz has taken an interesting turn, as the hacker has fled to South America

LOL!

[broodwars]

The continuing saga of George Hotz has taken an interesting turn, as the hacker has fled to South America

LOL!

I'm not sure what's so funny about that.  That's how the story has been reported on sites like Destructoid, Joystiq, Kotaku, etc.  It is also the charge Sony has newly filed against him due to his failure to turn over all his equipment per court order.  If this is just a "vacation" then so be it (though I'm curious how he funded it considering a few months back he was begging his followers for donations to fund his legal efforts).  He still should have handed over his equipment as requested ordered before he left the country.  As it is, the douche (and I've thought he was one since seeing his appearance on G4 TV) is obstructing the legal system and hurting his case.

Also, regarding the fact that Hotz apparently has a PSN account: apparently, a large part of Hotz's defense is that he never had a PSN account, and thereby never agreed to the PSN Terms & Conditions and so never violated the agreement.  That he did have a PSN account means he had previously agreed to the Terms & Conditions, and now can be proven to have violated that agreement. 

[BlackNMild2k1]

I suggested in my post that he may be on vacation, but back to the point at hand.

I know possession is 9/10th of the law, and just because he owns the PS3 in question doesn't prove he is the one to make the PSN account, even if he does use it, since it is on his PS3.

If he is not the one to make the account then he could always argue that he never agreed to anything. I don't know how well that would stand up in court, but proving that his PS3 accessed PSN through an account created on his PS3 does not without a reasonable doubt prove that the account was created by him even if it was created for him.

And I'm not trying to defend GeoHotz in any direct way, but as I understand it, this case has alot riding on it and I don't want to see him **** it up by not playing by the rules and getting his chances of setting precedence (like iPhone jailbreaking) thrown out along with his defense.

[Chozo Ghost]

I'm not sure what's so funny about that.

I dunno, but that headline of him fleeing to South America just strikes me as hilarious for some reason. Its like he's one of those Nazi war criminals or something, but in comparison his crime is trivial so to me its like a parody. It would be even more funny if he assumed a new name and disappeared without a trace, leaving Sony and their lawyers clueless on what to do.

[broodwars]

I'm not sure what's so funny about that.

I dunno, but that headline of him fleeing to South America just strikes me as hilarious for some reason. Its like he's one of those Nazi war criminals or something, but in comparison his crime is trivial so to me its like a parody.

Well, you're far from the only person to think it funny.  Jim Sterling asked him to bring him back a Toucan.   

[BlackNMild2k1]

I thought this was pretty funny




edit:
apparently he also handed over the HDD's as ordered, he just didn't send the controller board that it is assembled and sold with along with it. So now the 3rd party paid to image and investigate the drives (The Intellegence Group) can't do their jobs until they receive those parts.

[BranDonk Kong]

If that's true (about disassembling the hard drive), then that's just plain awesome. I believe I remember them saying that they only needed to take the part of his computer that actually contained what he was working on, which would be the platters of the hard drive.