Topic: Nintendo Should Follow Capcom's Lead

[Mario]

More like Today at 05:56:53 pm.

I like everything about Fusion except the annoying bosses. Great game. It'd be awful if they announced a new 2D Metroid, and it was 8 bit. What the hell? You can add heaps more awesome stuff with no restrictions. Plus it doesn't always look better. Imagine Paper Mario or Jungle Beat on NES.

[KDR_11k]

I think it felt too railroaded. Yes, as a series progresses the design tends to become more linear but this was just ridiculous.

[Ian Sane]

So yesterday my brother wanted to play Genesis and we played Forgotten Worlds.  I got a Genesis very recently and we hadn't really given the game a serious run through yet.  Anyway he brought up the topic of "how come they don't make cool games like this anymore?"

Now Mega Man 9 is more or less intentionally making a game like they used to.  I don't like how 2D is restricted mostly to portables.  I want to be able to sit in front of the TV with my brother and play a good 2D game.  I think some new arcade style games with 16-bit style graphics would be really cool.  The problem is that I don't trust current developers.  They will put too many modern game design ideas into it.  Not that those ideas are bad they just don't fit.

They often get these things wrong:
-Save after every level.  These games are designed to be completed in one sitting.
-Low difficulty.  Because of their short length they need to be hard enough that it takes practice to get good at it.  Though sometimes the opposite effect happens and they make the game too hard to appeal to super hardcore gamers.
-Watching story instead of playing it.  They put cutscenes and such in because we expect it now but with old games you created the story by playing the game.
-Padding.  Too many levels, too long of levels, collecting extra junk to get the real ending.  It's the combination of the short game that's too easy and let's you save every five minutes and the pressure to provide a good length for the player.  They have to remember that replaying the game because it's challenging and fun is what will make the game longer.

I think there is also the problem that when they make it a sequel they go really nuts trying to please the fans so the game is a little too derivative.  Bosses and enemies and such from previous games show up because the fans expect them to.

I would like to see someone make an original game as if they were designing an arcade game back in 1989 on 16-bit hardware and were porting it to a console capable of arcade perfect translations.  With Wii Ware this is totally possible.  But they have to really not allow modern game design get in the way.

As a bonus such a game would be totally pick up and play so non-gamers might like it too.

[Flames_of_chaos]

So yesterday my brother wanted to play Genesis and we played Forgotten Worlds.  I got a Genesis very recently and we hadn't really given the game a serious run through yet.  Anyway he brought up the topic of "how come they don't make cool games like this anymore?"

Now Mega Man 9 is more or less intentionally making a game like they used to.  I don't like how 2D is restricted mostly to portables.  I want to be able to sit in front of the TV with my brother and play a good 2D game.  I think some new arcade style games with 16-bit style graphics would be really cool.  The problem is that I don't trust current developers.  They will put too many modern game design ideas into it.  Not that those ideas are bad they just don't fit.

Wario Land Shake It! says hi

[Ian Sane]

Wario Land Shake It! says hi

Wario Land has waggle in it.  Waggle = modern game design mechanic.  It'll probably still be good but it won't feel like a retro game.

[Luigi Dude]

Wario Land has waggle in it.  Waggle = modern game design mechanic.  It'll probably still be good but it won't feel like a retro game.

The thing is, Wario Land Shake isn't meant to be retro.  It's meant to be a true sequel to Wario Land 4, which was released back in 2001.  That's why it's gameplay according to everyone that's imported it says it's is a larger, more expanded version of Wario Land 4.

[Flames_of_chaos]

Wario Land Shake It! says hi

Wario Land has waggle in it.  Waggle = modern game design mechanic.  It'll probably still be good but it won't feel like a retro game.

Okay Ian name me a retail home console game for Wii 360 PS3 that's a 2d side scroller.

[KDR_11k]

Requiring the player to complete a game in one sitting isn't done because it was recognized that people don't always have the time for that. When a game takes that long to get to a meaningful closure (saving your progress or winning the game) I'm often reluctant to play at all because it means when something interrupts me I lose all my progress. Plus trudging through three levels I can already beat blindfolded to work on the fourth which is giving me trouble is annoying.

Hell, even on the NES many games had ways to resume from where you left of though it often came in the form of passwords.

And what's your obsession with retro anyway, why should a game be restricted to the old ways so much? Why can't it make use of all the advances since back then? Going 2d does not require turning your game into a big anachronism. You're just clinging to the past where you believe games were magically better than today. Go get Bangai-O Spirits or really any good DS game and shut up. Portability is a virtue, putting a game on the TV when it can be put on a system you can take anywhere is pointless and counterproductive.

Even if your game gets made, would you really buy it? Knowing you I'd expect you to just find some nitpicky reason why it shouldn't count and then not buy it, complaining to no end that your game doesn't get made. Who'd want to make it? If you had a girlfriend who's a whiny bitch and forbids you from having any friends besides her, would you keep her or would you just dump her and look for someone who doesn't ruin your whole life with her demands? Who'd want to make a game for a whiny little bitch on a forum that's always grasping for new excuses why your products don't cut it when there's millions upon millions that won't whine, that won't complain the game is not the exact thing they expected, that might even be HAPPY with it?

What you want is not a game, what you want is your childhood back. Go bother a biologist or something, videogames don't do surgery.

[Ian Sane]

Okay Ian name me a retail home console game for Wii 360 PS3 that's a 2d side scroller.

Being a 2D sidescroller has nothing to do with it.  Luigi Dude describes perfectly how Warioland isn't even meant to be a retro game so it won't feel like one.  Which is fine because it'll probably still be really good.  This thread is about intentionally retro designed games like Mega Man 9.  Warioland Shake It is not one of those types of games.

Requiring the player to complete a game in one sitting isn't done because it was recognized that people don't always have the time for that.

Do you ever go back and try these one sitting games?  They're short.  IF you can beat Contra 3 for example you will do so in less than an hour.

And what's your obsession with retro anyway, why should a game be restricted to the old ways so much? Why can't it make use of all the advances since back then?

Um, this is the topic of the thread?  We're talking about Mega Man 9 and if Nintendo or other companies should make games like that.  Games like that = intentionally retro.  And if you're going to do something intentionally retro then you do it right.  And in the case of 2D action games making them easy and full of padding actually makes the game WORSE.  My whole point is to make a good game like that it has to be challenging.  Otherwise it will bore the player too quickly and they won't feel it was worth the money.  I'm discussing good game design.

"Portability is a virtue, putting a game on the TV when it can be put on a system you can take anywhere is pointless and counterproductive."

Portables suck.  Sh!tty little screen.  Sh!tty sound.  You either have to look down at the screen which is tiring on your neck or you have hold the thing in front of you which is tiring on your arms.  Your friends all need to own their own systems and likely a copy of the game just to play multiplayer assuming the developer even put multiplayer in as they often don't because they think not enough people will make use of it because the expensive requirement I mentioned.  The only reason I uncomfortablely hunch over the DS is because to play those games I HAVE to have a DS.  Once the GB Player was released for the Cube I never played GBA games on my GBA ever again.

[KDR_11k]

Do you ever go back and try these one sitting games?  They're short.  IF you can beat Contra 3 for example you will do so in less than an hour.

Even so I got interrupted while trying to beat Sonic 1 yet again way too often.

You know what's funny? Malstrom just made an article about how games need to be more arcadey and skill based in their progression and that new generation games (read: the things you disparage as "casual") are returning to that ideal again.Time to go casual, eh, Ian?

[vudu]

Do you ever go back and try these one sitting games?  They're short.  IF you can beat Contra 3 for example you will do so in less than an hour.

As KDR already said, an hour's a long time.  In the rare cases when I have more than an hour to play a game I tend to play something a little more--how do I put it without sounding condescending towards older games?--"meatier".  The beauty of 2D side-scrollers is you can generally jump right in and do something meaningful in 5 or 10 minutes.  You can't do that with many newer games.  Besides, tell me you can beat Mario Bros. 3 in an hour with a straight face (warping is not allowed).

[Ian Sane]

Besides, tell me you can beat Mario Bros. 3 in an hour with a straight face

I can't beat it in an hour.  It's a game that I think should have had save capabilities in the first place.  I don't mind an extended pause kind of save like the VC has.  That's fine.  I think however that in a ten level game being able to go back to any previous level you've already beaten makes the game too easy.  But being able to do a quick save in the middle of beginning to end playthrough is a great feature.

I feel sorry for all of you that have lives where dedicating a continuous hour to one task is hard to do.  That lack of freedom would drive me bonkers.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I can beat Mega Man X in 1.5 hours without taking damage (minus fake Vile boss fights).

( 'o')/

[KDR_11k]

I think however that in a ten level game being able to go back to any previous level you've already beaten makes the game too easy.

Oh that depends entirely on the game in question. Try, say, Ninja Five-O, Viewtiful Joe or P.N.03 (outside of Easy difficulty). You can save after every level but the games are still tough as nails. And that's before we talk about the hard and LONG games like EDF and Bangai-O.

What is annoying is when your progress is slow and you have to play through the same old levels over and over again for a few minutes of working on the areas that are difficult for you. That's one of ther reasons I found it retarded that you need to get somewhere in one credit to unlock it for practice mode in Ikaruga. Never bothered to play that game past stage 4, every time I was there I kept dying almost immediately after the invulnerability wore off and to get there I had to go through 3 other stages. It's also the reason I played the challenge mode in Contra 4 more than the main mode since it would pretty much put me right next to the part I'm having trouble with so I can work on it without wasting time.

[NWR_pap64]

On the subject of Nintendo following Capcom's lead, I have to disagree greatly.

I see Megaman 9 as an unique event in the industry. Its a classic, old school game that runs on next gen hardware. Its a return to basics games, and I am loving how people are anticipating this more than Gears of War 2.

Nintendo should only borrow the idea of taking their franchises and return them to their most basic form, something they already did with "New Super Mario Bros." on the DS. However, if they were to use 8-bit sound and graphics then it would no longer be unique, it would be Nintendo imitating Capcom.

The industry has a nasty tendency of imitating everything popular. Like I said, Megaman 9 is its own unique event. Any other game that tries to imitate it will just reek of "me too", and suddenly retro comeback isn't as good as it sounded on paper.

[KDR_11k]

Anything imitating it would be just a birdman anyway, Megaman is going retro because that's back when it was good, Nintendo's franchises didn't decay over the versions and there is no need for them to try sweeping their newer games under the rug. In fact many Nintendo franchises were WORSE back on the NES. There might be a point in making a new Zelda 1-like game (i.e. almost complete freedom of movement and nonlinearity) but it would probably benefit from newer graphics anyway since the NES game was pretty samey most of the time.

[jakeOSX]

first off, i am excited about MM9. i haven't played any of them since 4, and so far that might be a good thing. (tho i still keep looking at those DS games...)

second, fusion was a great game.

third, while there isn't one yet out for this gen, one of the most recognizable game names is still locked firmly in 2d. yes i am looking at you castlevania which had PS2 games, but in 2d. i would fully expect the next gen games to be 2d as well. (the real ones, not the fighting game wii are getting)

i have to agree with Ian about games that were designed to be played through in a sitting. think of how many games you have on your shelf that you have played the beginning of once. maybe, maybe twice. but for the most part, that was all you did.

now think of SMB. i could almost do the first level with my eyes closed. the game itself was fun in repetition, not just as an EVENT to plow through and beat.

[NWR_insanolord]

third, while there isn't one yet out for this gen, one of the most recognizable game names is still locked firmly in 2d. yes i am looking at you castlevania which had PS2 games, but in 2d. i would fully expect the next gen games to be 2d as well. (the real ones, not the fighting game wii are getting)

The PS2 Castlevanias were 3D, not 2D, and there was a 3D Castlevania on the N64. The last 2D Castlevania on a console was Symphony of the Night on the PS1 over a decade ago.

[jakeOSX]

they were?

ha, i swore i'd played one on the PS2... ah well

me = fail

(or whatever the kids say these days)

[KDR_11k]

Well, PS1 games work on the PS2 too.