Author Topic: Tiers?  (Read 13600 times)

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Offline RABicle

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Re: Tiers?
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2008, 05:29:42 PM »
I played this shitty game for the first time last weak and, oh god what have they done to Jigglypuff? They nerfed rest to hell. It's gone form best move int he game to bloody useless. It ONLY knocks people directly up now, this is criminal.
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Offline nickmitch

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Re: Tiers?
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2008, 09:30:13 PM »
Yes us Olimar players especially hate Lucas.

I only have one friend who uses Olimar, but I've only played against him with another guy (he uses Ike), so I can't juggle him all that well.

At school though, I love the look of surprise on people's faces when I beat them with Olimar. It's great.
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Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: Tiers?
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2008, 09:45:12 PM »
Olimar is the shiz
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Tiers?
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2008, 10:37:41 PM »
I picked Olimar as my main the second I knew he was in the game, that turned out to be a very good decision.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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Re: Tiers?
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2008, 12:11:38 AM »
I played this shitty game for the first time last weak and, oh god what have they done to Jigglypuff? They nerfed rest to hell. It's gone form best move int he game to bloody useless. It ONLY knocks people directly up now, this is criminal.

True, but rollout isn't instant death if you go off the ledge now.
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Offline IssunZX

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Re: Tiers?
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2008, 11:49:26 PM »
I understand that there is a big competitive scene with Smash Bros., but I never understood this "tier" crap. I mean, does it suddenly make me a worse player because I prefer to use characters I like/can control better over another character? I dunno, whatever happened to having fun when you're playing? That being said, I don't know what really qualifies as "high-tier" and "low-tier." I also never got the whole "wavedashing" thing and all those other "advanced techniques" (which, if I'm not mistaken, was exploiting glitches, right?).

I don't know if Sonic qualifies for "high-tier" but he's my favorite character to use. I especially like being able to get multiple hits in before running off, using his high-jump and coming back down with a kick and probably follow up with some spin attacks. He's not the strongest character around, but I like that he's able to rack up damage quickly. His smash attacks are also pretty good. I've also gotten into using Lucario because he's more of a power hitter than Sonic, but also still really fun to play as. I'm liking Toon Link more because he 's faster than Link (who I used to play as all the time back in Melee). I dunno, I think Link was slowed down too much, and I prefer close-range fights so if I can get the extra speed it certainly helps. Finally, my other favorite character is the king himself, GANONDORF. He's not fast and he's really heavy, but being able to just punch someone and send them flying is really awesome to me.

I'm not really a competitive person, but I've never played in any tournaments and I've only ever played against my friends, so I probably don't get what the big deal is about using a character that I may not like how they control over another that may be easier for me to grasp and play as.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 11:50:58 PM by IssunZX »

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Tiers?
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2008, 03:30:45 AM »
"I dunno, whatever happened to having fun when you're playing?"

It's not the N64 era anymore.
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Offline Mario

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Re: Tiers?
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2008, 10:14:49 AM »
The internet happened

Offline Smash_Brother

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Re: Tiers?
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2008, 11:21:03 AM »
Tiers tend to matter more in tournaments where there's money to be won.
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Offline IssunZX

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Re: Tiers?
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2008, 01:33:35 PM »
Tiers tend to matter more in tournaments where there's money to be won.

I guess, but I mean, can't a character of a supposedly "lower tier" just as easily put up a fight against one of a "higher tier"? How much different is it to knock out Shiek or Marth (or whoever the elitist favorites usually are) with Sonic or Lucario, versus using one "high tier" character versus another? I just think people take this tier crap too seriously.

Offline Smash_Brother

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Re: Tiers?
« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2008, 02:08:23 PM »
It boils down to technical matchups, and the problem is that, when you have two players of near-equal skill level, suddenly which character has technical advantages starts playing a role.

Let's take a basic example in matchups: Dedede vs. Donkey Kong.

Dedede as an infinite grab which works on only 5 characters, DK being one of them. Therefore, if the Dedede player doesn't screw up their timing, they can grab DK once, down throw and regrab him to 200% damage, and side throw him off the screen for a basically free KO. This is an extreme example, but an example nonetheless.

In the case of a matchup between Bowser and, say, Metaknight, Bowser is at a disadvantage because he has no real projectile attacks, all of his attacks are physical, and Metaknight has what's called a "disjointed hitbox" meaning that Metaknight's sword doesn't count as his body, so he can attack without worrying about putting his body in harm's way because he cannot be damaged by hitting his sword.

I've still slaughtered plenty of skilled Metaknight players, mind you (I've also lost to a few), but in a hypothetical situation of me facing an opponent of identical skill level, me playing as Bowser puts me at a disadvantage against my equiskilled opponent if he uses Metaknight.

Tiers aren't a new concept: they've been around since Street Fighter and they're real.

Statistically, with literally thousands of SSBB tourneys happening all the time, it's impossible to not have a relevant statistical graph of which characters are winning these tournaments. These are the proving grounds, and if no one is winning tournaments with Yoshi, it's not because no one is trying but because no one is succeeding.

You still have crazy fools like me who take Bowser into tourneys. I'm not about to change my main character because of which characters are winning tourneys, but I'm not so thick as to not acknowledge the fact that Bowser has a severe disadvantage against most other characters.

The question to ask is whether or not this has any effect on a group of people sitting around playing SSBB and that's a hard question to answer. It all boils down to how far this group of players has gone toward exploring the full potential of each character. Some characters are just the right size or fall at the right speed, etc. so that other characters can pull off some truly nasty combos on them. Case in point, the Dedede example from earlier.

It depends more upon the skill of the players than anything, but all characters do have a "ceiling" determining how far one can take them and when human potential exceeds character potential, the tier list is formed.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 02:19:57 PM by Smash_Brother »
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Offline IssunZX

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Re: Tiers?
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2008, 07:39:03 PM »
Oh, well that makes more sense. Still, I think it's funny how so many people will swear by these characters just because they are of a higher tier. It's only a matter of time before they get knocked out by a character like Sonic or Bowser. I tend to swear by my favorites and what I feel I have the best control of (as I've been saying, Sonic, Lucario, etc.). I wouldn't mind entering a competition, but I figured I'd already get kicked around almost ridiculously. I'm far from best Brawler around, but I like to think I could still hold my own without trying to learn a character that I just don't like the feel of.

I don't think it's just skill or the particular character, I also believe luck plays some importance in matches, especially if items are turned on. But I'm kind of an opportunist, so that's where that probably comes from.

Offline Deep-Six

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Re: Tiers?
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2008, 10:39:13 PM »
I've got my friend yelling at me to not use Olimar because I purely dominate with him.  From what I hear some people have a lot of trouble with him so is that what balances him out?

Something I figure with snake's and Pits up B moves is that there left venerable for a while since those moves aren't attacks.

Offline Caterkiller

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Re: Tiers?
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2008, 12:22:25 PM »
By far Donkey Kong is the least popular character and not the easiest to use in Brawl. Thats why I have been on a mission to get good with him.

Dedede's chain grab is leathel to DK, especialy at lower % and my brother is such a great Dedede user, so I have to constantly watch out for that on stages with no ledges. But you just have to find ways around it. 

Dk has no projectile, and you can set your self up bad if you don't know how to use his spinning Kong properly. Meaning you get back on stage so he lands on his feet and not his back. So speedy characters with projectiles are the worst for DK, because you can barely get close to some like Olimar or ROB with out getting shot up like crazy.

And after a nice bit of play time I discovered how to get around thunder shocks and lazer beams, waddle dees, Pikmin and the freakin tornado thing Metaknight does. Tilts, tilts and more tilts. You can not be good with DK if you don't know how to use his tilts. His forward tilt has major priority over projectiles, and all 3 forward, down and up allow you to hit fast and keep your opponents off balance. Setting them up for a smash attack.

Edge guarding is the best way to deal with Olimar, thats what balances him out for me. Other wise I can never tell exactly what he is doing.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Tiers?
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2008, 01:53:51 PM »
Hard?  Try using Captain Falcon when there's lag.
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Offline Bartman3010

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Re: Tiers?
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2008, 01:07:03 PM »
Hell, Donkey Kong is my main character. Just keep in mind to make him go slow, as thats how to get the best use of him (Though why his running attack is a kick instead of a barrel roll is a mystery to me) Hold a direction on a stick (Instead of tapping) for an attack with a great reach, really quick too. Anyone who has a giant or metal status effect can be trapped when DK does hs handslap move, making it almost impossible to recover unless they can escape or they lose the affect altogether. Of course his Smash attack can basically send people with 60-80% damage to their death (Dont forget to use Up+A in the air to send people upward) Finally, his Smash attack is best used in the middle of the stage, along with timing to the music. Making it tough for people to get back onto the stage (Or at least trap them in a corner)

His Up+B move can do a pretty good combo if you can land it just right...
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