Author Topic: Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"  (Read 23058 times)

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Offline Shift Key

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RE:Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2007, 04:45:38 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
The next version of OSX was delayed for reasons which people are currently speculating over, and one of those reasons is that Apple will have a version of Windows XP running in the background of OSX, meaning that Apple users can boot PC apps natively, meaning that the difference between XP and OSX is OSX's stability and that's about it.


Its been delayed because of the QA team working on the iPhone instead.

Quote

However, iPhone contains the most sophisticated software ever shipped on a mobile device, and finishing it on time has not come without a price — we had to borrow some key software engineering and QA resources from our Mac OS X team, and as a result we will not be able to release Leopard at our Worldwide Developers Conference in early June as planned.


http://www.apple.com/hotnews/ - [Apr 12, 2007]

And by "boot PC apps natively" I'm guessing you mean "runs an emulated Windows environment within OSX" and that's already available through products like Parallels, Virtual PC and CrossOver. The buzz word  at the moment is virtualization but that's associated more with high-powered servers which run multiple instances of operating systems on top of the base OS. What these programs do is emulation - they don't have the grunt to do virtualization.

Offline Kairon

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RE: Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2007, 04:47:13 PM »
Yres, it's a disaster but... thjey've got so much money!

The only way to escape MS' attention is to convince the beast that what it wants can't be found here... but elsewhere!

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Offline that Baby guy

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RE: Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2007, 05:05:54 PM »
Power Tools are the next generation Xbox.  Power Tools.

Offline Louieturkey

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RE: Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2007, 09:06:10 PM »
MS is also in trouble in the PC market.  Dell recently announced that they are going to start putting Linux in their PCs as well as Alienware PCs.  So the OS market is starting to getting very competitive.  MS' strategy didn't call for them to lose the OS market I'm guessing.

Offline Shift Key

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RE:Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2007, 09:33:08 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Louieturkey
MS is also in trouble in the PC market.  Dell recently announced that they are going to start putting Linux in their PCs as well as Alienware PCs.  So the OS market is starting to getting very competitive.  MS' strategy didn't call for them to lose the OS market I'm guessing.


Erm, not so fast.

Quote

Dell has heard you and we will expand our Linux support beyond our existing servers and Precision workstation line. Our first step in this effort is offering Linux pre-installed on select desktop and notebook systems. We will provide an update in the coming weeks that includes detailed information on which systems we will offer, our testing and certification efforts, and the Linux distribution(s) that will be available. The countdown begins today.


http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/ideastorm/ideasinaction?c=us&l=en&s=gen

That was at the end of last month. Besides continuing to offer XP and Linux distribution(s) (the frontrunner so far is Ubuntu) alongside Vista, there's not much else to report on this. Dual-boot is certainly being considered as an option, so you have the choice to try out Linux alongside Windows if you have programs that are Windows-dependent.

The whole brew-ha-ha is at www.ideastorm.com if you want to see what possibilities are available but currently there's nothing definite. Just a lot of discussion and potential.

Offline Kairon

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RE: Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2007, 09:39:35 PM »
I know the next major computer purchase I make will be a mac.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
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Offline Shift Key

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RE:Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2007, 10:18:19 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
I know the next major computer purchase I make will be a mac.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com


Give several reasons why.

You can't just throw words around like that. Someone may get hurt.


Offline 18 Days

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RE: Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2007, 02:43:10 AM »
I will answer for Kairon
Because he is intelligent.
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Offline Shift Key

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RE:Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2007, 02:45:06 AM »
Quiet, you bandwagon-leading whore. Go worship some hippies.

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Offline nitsu niflheim

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RE: Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2007, 04:00:30 AM »
lol, you two made this thread fun! =D
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Offline Ceric

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RE:Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2007, 05:26:57 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Microsoft is facing a bigger threat on another front right now.

If Apple does what they're rumored to be doing, then they've succeeded in eliminating the key difference between macs and PCs. It all boils down to the fact that Intel hardware in Macs is the same in PCs. Right now, I reboot my OSX laptop, hold option (or alt, for you PC types) and it boots up in XP and runs PC games better than most PC users machines will, all natively off of the Intel hardware.

The next version of OSX was delayed for reasons which people are currently speculating over...


Quote

"Apple Statement
iPhone has already passed several of its required certification tests
and is on schedule to ship in late June as planned. We can't wait
until customers get their hands (and fingers) on it and experience
what a revolutionary and magical product it is. However, iPhone
contains the most sophisticated software ever shipped on a mobile
device, and finishing it on time has not come without a price — we had
to borrow some key software engineering and QA resources from our Mac
OS X team, and as a result we will not be able to release Leopard at
our Worldwide Developers Conference in early June as planned.
While
Leopard's features will be complete by then, we cannot deliver the
quality release that we and our customers expect from us. We now plan
to show our developers a near final version of Leopard at the
conference, give them a beta copy to take home so they can do their
final testing, and ship Leopard in October. We think it will be well
worth the wait. Life often presents tradeoffs, and in this case we're
sure we've made the right ones. [Apr 12, 2007]"
--http://www.apple.com/hotnews/


Shift Key beat me to it...anyways still I won't edit the bottom.

The iPhone is why Leopard is delayed.  Clear and simple.  Also Apple has stated many time that OSX will not be coming to the Generic PC market anytime soon.  When I can by OSX for my home built computer then we'll talk.  Also my experience with Macs where the opposite.   I was psyched to use one until I had to consistently use one.  Now I'm may...  The things I like I rarely have a need to use while the things I use a lot I don't really like.

Also on the Dell side of things they use to ship out almost all of their systems with an option to have Linux and dropped it when they weren't making enough money to justify the testing and support.  Though you can get most machines with Dos (aka OS Free).

Though if its such a losing strategy to try to have everything play together nice and connect then why is Apple trying to do the same thing with the iTV?  In all actuality when looking at the thing what pops in my mind is, "Why not just hook a Mac Mini to your TV?."  The device seems to be just a portal to your iTunes.  Not to mention I think the iPod is relatively unhealthy for its market as well.   Broadening out with the iPhone.  Every company is finding it needs to get out of its niche.  For most people who just surf the web and type documents Windows 98 would still be fine today if it was still supported officially.  Thats the problem with that type of market.  

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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2007, 05:41:34 AM »
I'm mistaken: the delay is irrelevant. There are many as of yet undisclosed features of Leopard, and even if one of them isn't native Windows, that doesn't mean it's not in the cards

Quote

Originally posted by: Shift Key
And by "boot PC apps natively" I'm guessing you mean "runs an emulated Windows environment within OSX"


No, because "emulated" implies that the application being run is being sustained through virtual fabrication of the resources which the application utilizes so that it can operate. There's a colossal difference between an IBM G5 processor emulating an Intel processor and having an ACTUAL Intel processor. Emulation is slow, sh*tty and unreliable.

I'm referring to the latter where the Windows environment is running natively off of all the same hardware it would typically have in a PC anyway but is still contained within OSX. No "emulation" actually occurs.

Apple has already expressed a considerable amount of interest in ensuring that Macs can also run Windows, as is evidenced with Boot Camp (which I use but seldom need). The next logical step beyond Boot Camp is to run Windows in the background so it can still be accessed and used to boot applications but doesn't sit as the main GUI.
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Offline 18 Days

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RE: Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2007, 07:21:24 AM »
I've been lobbying for OS/2 Warp support.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE: Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2007, 07:45:07 AM »
Shame they ended support just last year.
"OK, first we need someone to complain about something trivial. Golden or S_B should do. Then we get someone to defend the game, like Bill or Mashiro. Finally add some Unclebob or Pro666 randomness and the thread should go to hell right away." -Pap64

Offline Ceric

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RE: Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2007, 08:31:55 AM »
I'm going to say this and don't take it the wrong way.

Running Windows XP in the background would be a resource hog with little gain for most.  With how much of the API that has been reversed engineered and like, I try just incorporating that into OSX.  Sort of like what Wine is attempting to do.  Actually I could see Apple taking Wine, at its core OSX is a *nix, and adapting it to Aqua till they could fully roll their own.

Also their is emulation even in the PC world.  Virtual PC does not allow direct contact with the host hardware unless you specificly change things so it will.  Its a layer of protection w/ the theory that your using a VPC because you don't want to or can't risk a real one.  Though as mentioned Native is almost always better.
 
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Offline Mikintosh

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RE:Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2007, 09:05:58 AM »
*knows next to nothing about operating systems*

Xbox 360 (2nd place in the US, dead last in Japan) + Zune (8% of the market) + Vista (everybody hates it) = Sad portents for Microsoft.

Everyone thinks that Microsoft has an infinite amount of money; they just have a lot. And that's driven by Windows XP sales, which I'm sure have been hurt by Apple/Linux/the wide-spread belief it's bug-ridden. If Microsoft had put the thought into any of these three projects enough to make them superior to what was already on the market, it could've covered up the failures of the other two. MS needed Xbox 360 to be #1 here and at least selling moderately in Japan, Zune to be neck-and-neck with the iPod, and Vista to be the heir apparent to XP. None of those happened. I'm a lifelong Windows user (my sister has a Mac thhough I don't feel the same tempation), but I don't plan on buying any of those. Maybe 360 when it's gone down to $250, but I don't see that happening soon.

Soon the shareholders are going to hold the company accountable, and there's gonna be change. I'm sure the Zune'll be killed eventually, but I think 360'll be the last MS system, Halo 3 or no. Actually, if Sony & Microsoft team up on a Play-Box 4-720 (or something) in the next generation, I think that'd be their only hope.

Offline Ceric

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RE: Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2007, 09:39:39 AM »
Not everyone hates Vista.  Just most people who haven't used it or are used to a 2nd interation OS's (Think 98, Service Packed XP or 2000, OSX10.2>).

Personally I like Vista.  Once I have the money I'll actually get a copy for my Home Machine.  I also like Linux when I'm not the one administrating it, I like Gnome for the Desktop but I like the KDE apps.  Lets face the facts people Zune will never be Neck to Neck with the iPod until Apple truly slips up.  Fact of the matter NO player will be neck to neck to the iPod until Apple Slips up.  Though I can see in a year or two with a few simple changes MS will have their own Zealots much like Apple has almost always had.

Things like:
  • expanding the Zune use of Wifi to what is being done with the Sansa Connect
  • Merge the Zune and 360 Marketplace
  • Offer Lossless Music
  • Offer Shows and Movies in HD
  • Offer a Zune Pass that allows you to watch any video (After the Zune and 360 Marketplace are "Merged")
  • Have a good selection of Shows and Movies
    Offer those things and they have me.  Add in IPTV with Tivo like functionality and that be great.  
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    Offline Mikintosh

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    RE:Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
    « Reply #42 on: April 20, 2007, 12:46:51 PM »
    Quote

    Originally posted by: Ceric
    Not everyone hates Vista.  Just most people who haven't used it or are used to a 2nd interation OS's (Think 98, Service Packed XP or 2000, OSX10.2>).

    Personally I like Vista.  Once I have the money I'll actually get a copy for my Home Machine.  I also like Linux when I'm not the one administrating it, I like Gnome for the Desktop but I like the KDE apps.  Lets face the facts people Zune will never be Neck to Neck with the iPod until Apple truly slips up.  Fact of the matter NO player will be neck to neck to the iPod until Apple Slips up.  Though I can see in a year or two with a few simple changes MS will have their own Zealots much like Apple has almost always had.

    Things like:
  • expanding the Zune use of Wifi to what is being done with the Sansa Connect
  • Merge the Zune and 360 Marketplace
  • Offer Lossless Music
  • Offer Shows and Movies in HD
  • Offer a Zune Pass that allows you to watch any video (After the Zune and 360 Marketplace are "Merged")
  • Have a good selection of Shows and Movies
    Offer those things and they have me.  Add in IPTV with Tivo like functionality and that be great.


  • Well, I was talking about the general perception of Vista being...hard to run? I'd get it if my laptop had more than half the bare minimum of RAM it needed.

    I think the Zune's going down for a hit. It's not user-friendly, doesn't work with iTunes (obviously), and isn't half as sleek or attractive as the iPod. Tying it in with the 360 might pacify current customers, but it won't help the overall business.

    Sadly, Microsoft will never have its "zealots" because it gave up the special kind of culture Apple has created for itself years ago when it began to strong-arm Windows into every computer and generally just became a corporate behemoth that people put up with because they make useful software. And even that's starting to become eroded.

    Offline Ceric

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    RE: Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
    « Reply #43 on: April 20, 2007, 02:36:45 PM »
    *shrug*
    I know that the machine I run it on with the minimum specs at work runs it as well as XP.
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    Offline Shift Key

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    RE:Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
    « Reply #44 on: April 20, 2007, 02:49:52 PM »
    tldr warning

    Quote

    Originally posted by: Smash_Brother

    No, because "emulated" implies that the application being run is being sustained through virtual fabrication of the resources which the application utilizes so that it can operate. There's a colossal difference between an IBM G5 processor emulating an Intel processor and having an ACTUAL Intel processor. Emulation is slow, sh*tty and unreliable.

    I'm referring to the latter where the Windows environment is running natively off of all the same hardware it would typically have in a PC anyway but is still contained within OSX. No "emulation" actually occurs.


    You're waving a lot of hands around in here. Let me give you a heads-up on operating systems - I might be a bit rusty as it was a couple of years ago that I studied this.

    When you boot up, you load a segment of code called the kernel -  the foundation of any operating system - into the main memory of a computer. This becomes the interface between the hardware and the programs that are run by the user. The kernel allows programs to access parts of the hardware, such as the processor or a network interface, but through a series of system calls. These system calls differ from kernel to kernel depending on the designer - Windows, Mac, Linux, etc do not have the same kernel. There are some similarities but you cannot simply drop in a new kernel and expect it to work correctly.

    Now, if someone wants to run a different kind of operating system, they have two choices. One is that they can reboot and load the different kernel into memory. Or the second choice is to run the operating system within the current operating system. This isn't as easy as you think, even with the same computer architecture.

    Software (lets call this the environment manager) has to be used to convert the kernel calls of the new operating system into system calls that the original operating system can execute. The software never has access to the hardware as it is running as a userspace program which talks to the original operating system. Unless OS X is keen to open up their kernel to system calls from userspace programs, this is the way that all emulation/virtualisation programs will access the OS.

    In this case, if you were running a Windows program you would need to have a Windows installation (with the required libraries and kernel that Windows applications interface with). The program makes calls to the Windows OS, and the operating system then "thinks" it is talking to the real hardware, but it is tricked into talking to the environment manager. The environment manager then takes the Windows system calls and maps them to the relevant OS X system calls, and the calls are executed by the OS X operating system.

    Not anywhere along the line is this process "natively executed" because any other operating system has to be run within a software environment in order to correctly handle the system calls of other operating systems. That's why its emulation - but it was "slow, sh*tty and unreliable" in the past because of the processing power required to do it. These days, the software and hardware power is more suited to the task.

    Virtualisation on the other hand is a broad term which involved producing "customised hardware configurations" on top of the original hardware. Different architectures can be run on the same system, with an operating system assigned to each configuration. The configurations are managed by software, which then talks to the original operating system in order to execute code and access hardware.

    Feel free to correct me on this, but I don't see Apple pulling any rabbits out of their hat regarding running Windows code natively. And that's because its not a hardware issue, its an operating system issue. They're already including BootCamp with Leopard so I don't see them making huge steps without negotiating a lot of technical and legal issues.

    Quote

    Well, I was talking about the general perception of Vista being...hard to run? I'd get it if my laptop had more than half the bare minimum of RAM it needed.


    Having used Vista on and off for the last two months, I will say that it is a disappointment. They've taken what was at its core the most popular Windows OS (XP) and then made it an annoying experience. From a power user's perspective, I feel like I'm computer-challenged when I use it.

    It does things that I don't want it to do. Like setting the home page in IE7 to some MSN site. I swear it changes itself at random intervals.

    It does things that I have no control over. The default shutdown is not a true shutdown but a terrible excuse for hibernation - and even that takes forever. Just turn the monitor into a black screen, wait a random period of time, check if the hard drive is still working, wait a bit more. And this was hyped as a real feature of Vista - fast startup and shutdown, when in essence it doesn't do either.

    And when I want to do something then it feels like I'm fighting the OS in order to get there. User access controls are a nuisance, and even when I switch them off there is still a popup every time I start Vista telling me this fact.

    And when I want to find out information that is important to administrators (like how long a disk defragment will take) it tells me "This could take minutes or hours." No numbers, no little graphic of moving colours around the hard drive space. Nothing. Not good enough.

    I believe there was too much of a focus on minor things like visual effects and keeping information away from users that they've made the system aimed towards people who don't wish to be in control of their computer. Just sit back and enjoy the ride, sponsored by Microsoft. Oooh look, pretty colour schemes.

    I will be removing it for XP when I get a couple of hours free. Unless they change the OS significantly, with a real focus on usability rather than "shiny things" then I won't be trying it again.

    Offline Ceric

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    RE: Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
    « Reply #45 on: April 20, 2007, 03:07:47 PM »
    Quote

    I believe there was too much of a focus on minor things like visual effects and keeping information away from users that they've made the system aimed towards people who don't wish to be in control of their computer. Just sit back and enjoy the ride, sponsored by Microsoft. Oooh look, pretty colour schemes.


    You may thank Apple for that.  Anyways, I'm waiting for them to finish up Monad,Methinks its something like powershell now, and for Longhorn Server.  Monad, for all intents and purposes, moves the Windows Command line more toward the *nix command line.

    On the whole User Access Controls personally haven't found them that annoying.  I agree with the idea but the implementation will probably be toned down a bit.
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    Offline Shift Key

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    RE:Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
    « Reply #46 on: April 20, 2007, 03:19:28 PM »
    Quote

    Originally posted by: Ceric
    You may thank Apple for that.  Anyways, I'm waiting for them to finish up Monad,Methinks its something like powershell now, and for Longhorn Server.  Monad, for all intents and purposes, moves the Windows Command line more toward the *nix command line.

    On the whole User Access Controls personally haven't found them that annoying.  I agree with the idea but the implementation will probably be toned down a bit.


    A good command line is something I've been hanging out for ever since I got into Linux. It just makes things so much easier. And I'm definitely a keyboard fan over a mouse - mice are so inefficient (that's for another rant).

    "You are making this change to {some sort of ID here}. Are you sure?" in several popups is not a good implementation.
    The UACs need to be changed significantly. Make it useful or get rid of it.

    Either let the OS work out which changes will be made and show them in a single popup, or don't show them at all. Because you know that most people will just click them like mad to get them to go away - possibly making bad changes. And that's what the UAC popups are meant to prevent, right?

    Offline Smash_Brother

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    RE:Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
    « Reply #47 on: April 20, 2007, 03:41:11 PM »
    Quote

    Originally posted by: Shift Key That's why its emulation - but it was "slow, sh*tty and unreliable" in the past because of the processing power required to do it. These days, the software and hardware power is more suited to the task.


    That would classify as emulation, but I'd think that Apple would try to do it, if not booting the apps then at least giving users a way to switch between the OSes at the push of a button instead of having to reboot the machine.

    Some of the earlier Macs actually accomplished this by having a PC motherboard included in the chassis.

    As for the change to Vista, they'll force people into it the same way they always have: by forcing developers to upgrade to the latest versions of Direct X and other libraries which only run under Vista.
    "OK, first we need someone to complain about something trivial. Golden or S_B should do. Then we get someone to defend the game, like Bill or Mashiro. Finally add some Unclebob or Pro666 randomness and the thread should go to hell right away." -Pap64

    Offline Shift Key

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    RE:Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
    « Reply #48 on: April 20, 2007, 03:56:21 PM »
    Quote

    Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
    As for the change to Vista, they'll force people into it the same way they always have: by forcing developers to upgrade to the latest versions of Direct X and other libraries which only run under Vista.


    That's alright. I can work under XP or Linux depending on what I need to do. I don't play PC games any more these days anyway.

    Hell, I've still got a 2k box that's humming along fine in the next room. I'm more stubborn than the average bear.

    Offline Smash_Brother

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    RE: Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"
    « Reply #49 on: April 20, 2007, 04:20:36 PM »
    Amen to that.

    One of the reasons I like Apple is because their support for legacy hardware is nothing short of excellent.

    Their current OSX releases will still run on our iMacs: that's 9 years ago.

    I know it's the other side of the fence, but since Apple is a hardware developer, it would benefit them to force users to upgrade more often but they genuinely avoid doing that.

    Yeah, they're a bit slow by todays standards, but the new OSX running on old iMacs basically equates employing senior citizens.
    "OK, first we need someone to complain about something trivial. Golden or S_B should do. Then we get someone to defend the game, like Bill or Mashiro. Finally add some Unclebob or Pro666 randomness and the thread should go to hell right away." -Pap64