Author Topic: id Software is leaning towards ports for Wii (Read 13287 times)

KDR_11k · « **Reply #50 on:** March 06, 2007, 08:30:15 PM »

I will admit that Rogue Leader's greatness is somewhat of a fluke. I don't think it's a good sample of Factor 5's overall talent. It's their best work.

This man has never played Turrican, Katakis or Giana Sisters.

UltimatePartyBear · « **Reply #51 on:** March 07, 2007, 02:47:54 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Though Julian Eggebrecht does look like a tool when he uses Rebel Strike for comparisons because that's Factor 5's most recent game. If you make a poor game I'd say it's best to pretend it never existed. Bringing it back up just makes you look bad because it gives the impression that you're PROUD of the crap game you made.

What is so wrong about being proud of one of the most graphically impressive GameCube games ever made? He's not chastising other developers for making games that aren't fun. He's after them for not making good use of the Wii's graphical capabilities.

31 Flavas · « **Reply #52 on:** March 07, 2007, 03:43:24 AM »

It's just a double standard thing, PB. You can't praise a game for graphics on Nintendo if the game is crap. Not that I endorse it, but it is true.

Ian Sane · « **Reply #53 on:** March 07, 2007, 05:04:28 AM »

"What is so wrong about being proud of one of the most graphically impressive GameCube games ever made? He's not chastising other developers for making games that aren't fun. He's after them for not making good use of the Wii's graphical capabilities."

Yeah but making a very pretty game that isn't very good isn't really making good use of the hardware. It's just that Rebel Strike seems like a bad example because people can always point out that it sucks and use that in a "graphics vs. gameplay" arguement. Those people are idiots anyway but why give them ammo just the same? If you use a great game that also has great graphics as an example then anyone defending the Wii having inferior graphics has nothing. They can't use that bullsh!t arguement that good graphics and good gameplay are mutually exclusive because you've just proven otherwise.

UltimatePartyBear · « **Reply #54 on:** March 07, 2007, 06:44:53 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Yeah but making a very pretty game that isn't very good isn't really making good use of the hardware.

That's bunk. Factor 5 was one of the few developers to use every feature of the GameCube, right down to the clicking shoulder buttons and clock. If they don't get a pass on "making good use of the hardware," then nobody does. Not even Nintendo.

ryancoke · « **Reply #55 on:** March 07, 2007, 07:16:17 AM »

factor 5 was one of CGN's best developers. So what if rebel strike wasn't as good as rogue leader. It was still a damn good game and better than 90% of the other gamecube games.

How did a thread about ID software turn into a factor 5 discussion?

Bloodworth · « **Reply #56 on:** March 07, 2007, 09:49:06 AM »

UltimatePartyBear · « **Reply #57 on:** March 07, 2007, 10:03:10 AM »

It's pretty hard to have a thread about GameCube or Wii graphic power and not have Factor 5 come up. Then some clownboat says their games suck. The end.

GoldenPhoenix · « **Reply #58 on:** March 07, 2007, 10:23:19 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: ryancoke
factor 5 was one of CGN's best developers. So what if rebel strike wasn't as good as rogue leader. It was still a damn good game and better than 90% of the other gamecube games.

How did a thread about ID software turn into a factor 5 discussion?

Factor 5 IMO is a decent developer but they are quite one dimensional in the genre they develop games for. There was little innovation between the Rogue Squadron games, they almost felt like expansion packs with better visuals.

NinGurl69 *huggles · « **Reply #59 on:** March 07, 2007, 10:54:17 AM »

It's ok, the PC games industry thrives on expansions, SO IT MUST BE OK

GoldenPhoenix · « **Reply #60 on:** March 07, 2007, 10:58:54 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
It's ok, the PC games industry thrives on expansions, SO IT MUST BE OK

Ehhe, regarding PC expansions. like the Rogue Squadron series I enjoy them for some of my favorite games but I still feel a bit let down if it is a continuous trend instead of true sequels (like the Sims).

Ian Sane · « **Reply #61 on:** March 07, 2007, 11:05:35 AM »

"That's bunk. Factor 5 was one of the few developers to use every feature of the GameCube, right down to the clicking shoulder buttons and clock. If they don't get a pass on 'making good use of the hardware,' then nobody does. Not even Nintendo."

I didn't say Factor 5 didn't make good use of the hardware but rather that Rebel Strike specifically wasn't good use because it isn't very good.

ThePerm · « **Reply #62 on:** March 07, 2007, 11:08:02 AM »

well here were talking about graphics, the Factor 5 starwars games looked great, but here gameplay was really mediocre. after those games there werent alot of greqt looking games, there was starfox adventures, and resident evil 4, these gmes used the power of the system, why? They werent programmed in middleware. Rouge Squadron from what i hear was prgrammed straight in assembly, and this gave the developers a great deal of control of how well it looked. If you look at lair you can see the difference. Factor 5 know how to program.

as far as gamecube goes it had three problems, Nintendo didn't push the envelope, It got alot of playstation 2 ports, developers think whats made in the middleware is whats really available on the system.

so far those problems have reurned with the Wii, however chances are someone is going to arise and make something that loooks astounding.

NinGurl69 *huggles · « **Reply #63 on:** March 07, 2007, 11:11:46 AM »

You don't need to be "very good" to be "good."

KDR_11k · « **Reply #64 on:** March 07, 2007, 05:46:34 PM »

Rouge Squadron from what i hear was prgrammed straight in assembly,

Please don't call developers lazy for not doing that, most people nowadays aren't insane enough to try that and in fact these days EVERYONE tells you to avoid assembly whenever possible because today we have enough processing power and readable code means it's easier to maintain and debug.

31 Flavas · « **Reply #65 on:** March 15, 2007, 08:54:12 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: 31 Flavas

You can't convince me though, as I said, that the ramifications (the results) of continued strong sales of Wii hardware and software would be continued "maybe" or non-support stances from id or the rest of the top developers. These top graphics developers are going to find something to put on Wii so they can rake in the cash.

Yea, yea. I know replying to yourself is egotistical ... but I just want to touch on this again due to new news.

Check out this interview with Doug Lombardi of Valve. At the end of the video, in response to a question which essentially asked, "Why the hate form Gabe Newell on PS3?" Doug says, well ... the PS3 isn't selling. But, and immediately follows up saying, "I'm just going to be blunt with you. We missed the Wii. (no pun intended)" and continues that it wasn't because it isn't next gen or doesn't fit well with their plans, but because they weren't aggressively perusing the home console. And that while nothing is currently in development... since the system is selling like mad, you should not be surprised if they come up with something.

So vage as both id Software and Valve are being, Pittbboi, or anyone else, I would not make the assumption that Wii's non-HD graphics are gimping it or limiting developer interest.

Don't take that as an attack or anykind of "ha-ha, told you so." But perhaps as trying to dispel this cynical or continued pessimism.

NinGurl69 *huggles · « **Reply #66 on:** March 15, 2007, 09:06:11 AM »

If you dispel the pessimism, you dispel their reason to poast at all.

ThePerm · « **Reply #67 on:** March 15, 2007, 04:08:26 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Rouge Squadron from what i hear was prgrammed straight in assembly,

Please don't call developers lazy for not doing that, most people nowadays aren't insane enough to try that and in fact these days EVERYONE tells you to avoid assembly whenever possible because today we have enough processing power and readable code means it's easier to maintain and debug.

to be honest, once you get one good engine running, then laziness can become alright. If your a great developer than while making your game you would also develop a really good scripting code, which would allow you to change gameplay mechanics with ease, thus making a new gameplay.

KDR_11k · « **Reply #68 on:** March 15, 2007, 06:34:17 PM »

If your a great developer than while making your game you would also develop a really good scripting code, which would allow you to change gameplay mechanics with ease, thus making a new gameplay.

That's assuming the hardware never changes, the firmware never gets new features, the engine is optimal for all games (very unlikely) and the developer community never finds any new tricks. You also have to assume that your assembly will be perfect and bug free. Realistically that won't happen and ASM is a maintenance nightmare, for a program that will undergo changes later you want easily maintainable code, not a write-only language.

ThePerm · « **Reply #69 on:** March 16, 2007, 08:39:45 AM »

basically my problem with developers nowadays is they use middleware that just doesn't get the power out of the system,
are they hiring real programmers or are they just using script kiddies. You could say its a real bad thing to demand that programmers write code in assembly, but what are they getting paid 30,000+ dollars a year for? the Star Wars games for gamecube were made in a very short time period and have stood as the best looking cube & wii games. Why can other developers not get the power out of the system in 2007 that Factor 5 did in 2002?

It may be difficult, it may be a nightmare, but just because something is hard doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. If your going to be competitive than you have to do the best you possibly can. You have to be on a level others are not. I just wish gaming companies wouldnt be so damn derivative, that there were not 1000 ww2 games, that wii games not look like ps2 games when the system is vastly more powerful. They shouldnt rely on middleware it looks like balls.

and this scripting language im talking about is an object oriented thing, you have your actors and your stage, but what they do is just a matter of changing behaviors, which is a matter of changing variables.

MaryJane · « **Reply #70 on:** March 16, 2007, 09:25:53 AM »

Just to be clear I think too much credit is being given to id, and now Valve. They aren't giving the Wii support because of it's features, or potential, they are doing it because it is selling. The Wii's non-HD graphics are gimping it from developers, or at least they did in the past. However, a company's ultimate goal is to make money, and the best way for a company who makes games to do that is to make the most games for the system that is selling the best.

These companies likely still hate the fact that the Wii doesn't use HD graphics, and they likely don't (or at least didn't) care about the Wii-mote and wrote it off as a gimick, now however, there are dollar signs dangling in front of everything imprinted with those three little letters on it, and they want in.

I'm glad they're doing it, I say make more games, middleware, or whatever, anything made for the Wii is good IMO. I may not like it, and you may not, but someone somewhere will. (Hell people bought the VirtuaBoy didn't they?

).

Sales are pushing the Wii into popularity with these developers, the ones that jumped on before it started selling are the ones who were excited about the possibilities, the developers who are only now starting to make games, just want a piece of the money pie.

Ceric · « **Reply #71 on:** March 16, 2007, 10:13:48 AM »

I agree with KDR.

Some people said that Assembly was to high level when we moved away from Machine Code. Many said that C is to far away from assembly. Same with C++. Personally though for the speed and ease of developement done with those languages is great.

Nintendo knows the hardware best. They can write compilers to make superior low-level code for the system from the higher compiled langauges.

Also $30,000 a year is terrible pay for a programmer. In fact in my mind its bad for most everyone. You can't raise a family well on that sort of money. $45,000 is suppose to be the average for when you just get out of school. Something as specialized as game programming should command more and if you are a great enough assembly programmer to be able to outdo Nintendo and do a whole game in the langauge you should, in my opinion, command a wage that puts you closer or over the 6 digit area.

Edit:

Also for the Record: I enjoyed the Virtual Boy.

ThePerm · « **Reply #72 on:** March 16, 2007, 02:51:32 PM »

the other thing that disappoints me is when third parties jump on our ship in order to make a quick buck only to make a piece of crap game and not realize Nintendo gamers wont just buy any shit. Were smarter than we think, just throwing money around and going with the lowest common denominator won't do them any good. Then when they've failed then they blame the console for lack of sales, and make public announcements.

KDR_11k · « **Reply #73 on:** March 16, 2007, 07:14:32 PM »

You could say its a real bad thing to demand that programmers write code in assembly, but what are they getting paid 30,000+ dollars a year for?

Assembly is discouraged not because of programmer skills but because of its impact on the project. ASM is almost impossible to maintain so if anything needs changes or doesn't work you're SOL and can pretty much throw the whole codebase away because that's faster than trying to fix ASM.

and this scripting language im talking about is an object oriented thing, you have your actors and your stage, but what they do is just a matter of changing behaviors, which is a matter of changing variables.

That's nice except games have very different requirements for their interaction and ressource handling. They can be optimized for huge, open spaces, rooms, open spaces with only small areas you can actually go to, terrain-only with hundreds of actors, small arenas with two actors, etc. If you want an engine to be optimized you have to tune it for the specific game you are making.

These companies likely still hate the fact that the Wii doesn't use HD graphics, and they likely don't (or at least didn't) care about the Wii-mote

Don't make unfounded assumptions. Just because they go where the money is doesn't mean they automatically have to consider the PS3 the pinnacle of console technology.

the other thing that disappoints me is when third parties jump on our ship in order to make a quick buck only to make a piece of crap game and not realize Nintendo gamers wont just buy any shit. Were smarter than we think, just throwing money around and going with the lowest common denominator won't do them any good. Then when they've failed then they blame the console for lack of sales, and make public announcements.

Nintendo gamers don't buy bad games? Um, no. They buy games that are made by Nintendo, third parties get ignored unless they've got a huge hype machine runnign before release. Also it looks to me like Nintendo gamers buy crappy license tie-ins.

Adrock · « **Reply #74 on:** March 16, 2007, 07:50:07 PM »

To be a little more specific, Nintendo gamers buy games made by Nintendo because third party support has generally sucked for the last 10 years. Nintendo's own titles were basically the only sure bet at quality gaming without buying another console. I think Nintendo gamers would be more willing to support 3rd party offerings if they were just plain better on Nintendo consoles. Make a good game and it has a better chance of selling... unless it's called Beyond Good and Evil.

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Author Topic: id Software is leaning towards ports for Wii (Read 13287 times)