Author Topic: Pearing down the Revolution controller (Read 52127 times)

nemo_83 · « **on:** July 12, 2005, 08:42:05 PM »

"There are too many buttons and sticks on controllers for novice players, which is likely to discourage them from ever playing games at all," Iwata told The Guardian. "We want the Revolution's controller to be relevant to everybody and we really want people to feel like they want to touch and play with it."

That is from cube.ign.com, if you havn't read the piece I would suggest it.

This comment could be taken either way; on this occasion I would like to take it as a possitive remark. I am glad Nintendo wants to go in a new direction. I am glad Iwata believes there are too many buttons and too many sticks. That doesn't mean a clean slate though. That could mean one stick on the left side, a trackball on the right side, a scroll wheel in place of the dpad, etc. Buttons can only do so much, and if you're trying to concentrate on motion control via gyro(s) then you don't want ten buttons on the face of the controller.

I'll call it the dolphin

I don't know what to call this one

In these concepts the two halves are connected by a flexible ball that plugs into the console allowing players to charge while they play. Of course that means you split the controller in two for certain games using gyros individually along with the REV camera.

The second picture depicts very simply six possible face buttons including the analog stick and trackball. The true face buttons though can allow you to control the exact thrust of your attack or jump via spinning the wheel when pressing the button. Rather than pressing a pressure sensitive button one would simply spin the wheel as far as you wanted to jump. Or say you wanted to do a kick, but you specifically want to do a spining kick. Same thing for punches. You could jab by simply tapping a button, but you could put force and precise speed into a hook as well by using the wheel.

Edit: I should have explained further. The spidery looking design I offered featured ten buttons (not including the two gyros, or any function buttons like start, on/off, lock switches, channels, etc), seven of which do things not found on the other consoles' controllers. The buttons you don't see are the triggers with digital clicks and scroll wheels (also with digital clicks) located comfortably where the middle finger rests. These scrolling functions allow you to do things like choose visors or weapons. Use your nogin. You can fill in the blanks.

The game designers would have to assign to the wheels, whether to lock in the springloaded mechanic internally, or to unlock them allowing them to be spun continuously. I designed this controller around poly functional mechanics allowing for fewer buttons.

Edit again: revolution: 1.The act or state of revolving. 2. A motion in a closed curve around a center, or a complete circuit made by a body in such a course. 3. Mechanical rotation about an axis, as in a spiral, so as to come to a point corresponding to the starting point. 4. The movement of a planet around the sun or of any celestial body around a center of attraction. 5. A cycle of successive events or changes. 6. The overthrow and replacement of a government or political system by those governed. 7. A drastic change in a condition, method, idea, etc: a revolution in industry.

KDR_11k · « **Reply #1 on:** July 12, 2005, 08:46:01 PM »

Lemme guess, that part is followed by a rant from Matt about how Nintendo is losing it and they will go third party next round and yadda yadda yadda? Or does Ian have to supply that?

IceCold · « **Reply #2 on:** July 12, 2005, 09:25:38 PM »

Nintendo has always been saying that there are too many buttons / the controller is too complicated. There was also that no d-pad/A&B button rumour a while ago.

The only problem with that is the compatibility with old games, most importantly the 64.

"they want to touch and play with it"

Innuendos aside, this could be a hint.

nemo_83 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 12, 2005, 09:44:42 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: IceCold
Nintendo has always been saying that there are too many buttons / the controller is too complicated. There was also that no d-pad/A&B button rumour a while ago.

The only problem with that is the compatibility with old games, most importantly the 64.

"they want to touch and play with it"

Innuendos aside, this could be a hint.

I was already thinking about designing something that if nothing else looked intesting enough that you would have to touch it.

ShyGuy · « **Reply #4 on:** July 12, 2005, 10:19:25 PM »

Hmm, I agree with making the controller simpler, the trick is to still include a lot functionality .

Here's my shot at a rev controller, figure I better get it out there before the real one is revealed.
http://www.shyguysite.com/images/rev.png

The idea was to have the main part of the controller be able to flip over so it could be either buttons or a control pad on either side.

IceCold · « **Reply #5 on:** July 12, 2005, 11:16:18 PM »

Ah - you added one too many "https"

Fixed Link

couchmonkey · « **Reply #6 on:** July 13, 2005, 05:48:00 AM »

Iwata's comments really confused me. Reading comments from Nintendo, it's like East and West are having a debate.

Reggie: Hey guys, this system will have all the controls you need to play old games!
Iwata: Hey guys, this system will have fewer controls than our previous ones!

I don't think we've figured it out yet. I don't see how replacing an analog stick with a trackball makes anything simpler - in fact it makes things more complicated, one more type of control for users to figure out. Reconfigurable controls aren't really simpler either, and if they hide certain parts of the controller, then they wreck backwards compatability too. That's not to insult anyone's ideas, they're good ideas but I just don't think they meet Nintendo's criteria.

Personally, I can't imagine how anyone could meet Nintendo's criteria, if Reggie and Iwata are both telling the truth. How do you make controllers simpler without taking away functionality needed for older games? Maybe Gyroscopic controls could do that with some really clever software design, but I'm skeptical. I'm looking forward to seeing the controllers!

Ian Sane · « **Reply #7 on:** July 13, 2005, 07:39:41 AM »

The thing that bothers me that most about this sort of comment from Iwata is that designing a controller in such a way would greatly limit game design. You can make a game on a ten button controller that only uses two buttons but you can't make a game that uses ten buttons on a two button controller. If you have to simplify, simplify the GAMES not the controller. A Cube game is only intimidating if it's something like Splinter Cell where it takes a few minutes just to explain to someone the controls. Something like Super Monkey Ball is not intimidating. You just tell a person "all you have to do is roll the ball around with the stick" and they get it. The concept of buttons that don't do anything for specific games is not hard to grasp. If you can't understand that then you can't even use a phone because not every phone number uses every button.

For gaming the keyboard is without a doubt the most complicated "controller" ever made. Yet it is one that people can adapt to quite easily depending on the game. First person shooters are intimidating. You're expected to move with WASD and use a mouse at the same time as the keyboard. I find that intimidating and I play games. However I've found that most people can get into a PC game if the controls are more simplified. If you move with the arrows and then use a few buttons like spacebar, enter, shift, control, etc. it's not intimidating. I've seen several people who normally don't play games play simple computer games with controls like this. Yet all these other buttons are everywhere and it's not a problem. There is flexibility to allow for complexity and simplification.

Iwata sounds like he's suggesting removing parts of the existing controller design. NO. This is the WRONG way to do it. All this will do is turn away third parties and limit Nintendo's first party teams so that all they can make is simple games.

kirby_killer_dedede · « **Reply #8 on:** July 13, 2005, 08:26:49 AM »

I agree with Ian about simplifying games and not the controller. I mean...what was the best fighting game this gen, SCII? Yeah, would it really have been that great with like three moves per character?

Seriously, if they really screw the controller, unless they have a really spectacular E3 next year, I might jump boat.

DrGAKMANx · « **Reply #9 on:** July 13, 2005, 08:32:21 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
A Cube game is only intimidating if it's something like Splinter Cell where it takes a few minutes just to explain to someone the controls.

Wrong. There's these people called non-gamers, drop-out gamers & casual gamers and they all find todays controllers to be too complicated even to look at let alone to touch or use. These are the kind of people who don't care to remember the name of each of the buttons on the controller. These are the people who don't even know where to place their thumbs durring the game 'cos there's 4 seperate possitions to even put them in. These are the people who WOULD try a controller if it were like the NES pad. Todays controllers are great for the "core" gamers like us, but at the same time they just look intimidating to the eyes of the people Nintendo wants to attract. The GCN's layout is even worse 'cos it looks so childish and toy-like to many non-gamers despite feeling comfortable.

I for one am GLAD that Nintendo is looking to get the drop-out gamer back into gaming 'cos these are some of my friends and my brothers who had given up on gaming once there were more than 2 buttons. You're taking Mr. Iwata's comment as if Nintendo is looking to get rid of all the conventional controls to dumb things down for these people, but I see it as him making it a point to say that they're making the controller look & feel LESS complex for them. This doesn't mean that the new controller won't be able to play complex games, in fact I'm pretty sure it'll be able to handle all new types of control due to it's new features.

Reggie's more recent comments about a configurable controller for BC with past games should also allow for forward compatibility with today's games. It makes me think that customizable touch panels that can offer some sort of tactile resistance (as a button would) is going to be a part of the revolutionary interface. Not full out haptic full color touch screens or anything, but something like that black/blue Russian fake. Plus there's always been talk of "feeling" the new interface.

I've gone back to the drawing boards again for my design. Grip sensitive handles, L & R analog toggle wheel triggers with digital clicks, new jarring force feedback, tilt sensor, mic and a very simplistic (less intimidating) controller face. The face of the controller will have a thumbstick on the left side and a trackball on the right side, the rest of the face will be touch sensitive (due to touch panels) and will light up different button layouts (hence the configurability/customization) as well as in-game player specific info...the surface will be texturized so the player can "feel" where their thumbs are before they press so they don't have to look down at the controller while playing games. The controller LOOKS very basic and simple...that's to lure non-gamers in, but it would also allow for complexity that's even deeper than today's traditional controllers.

Just 'cos Mr. Iwata says controllers are and look too complex, doesn't mean the Revolution will be an NES pad...it just means they're working on a NEW way to play games that looks and feels less intimidating to gamers & non-gamers alike.

KDR_11k · « **Reply #10 on:** July 13, 2005, 08:53:21 AM »

It looks like what everybody knows how to use: A vagina! Everyone wants to touch it, check. Its use is obvious, check. Has never been applied to videogames before, check.

Ian Sane · « **Reply #11 on:** July 13, 2005, 09:40:17 AM »

"It makes me think that customizable touch panels that can offer some sort of tactile resistance (as a button would) is going to be a part of the revolutionary interface."

I find ideas like touchscreen controls and trackballs and gyros and all these other ideas people are throwing around ridiculously intimidating. Those concepts freak the hell out of me. I play games so if I'm confused as hell about these concepts then how are people who have problems with today's controllers going to react to them? These concepts are too different and complex. They'll scare away some existing gamers let alone those not interested now. I could see myself taking MONTHS to get used to some of the designs people around here have had.

Spak-Spang · « **Reply #12 on:** July 13, 2005, 09:43:59 AM »

When Nintendo talks about making a controller less frightening to nongamers...I think of the Gamecube controller. I have seen nongamers pick up the Cube Controller and want to play a game.

The controller is very friendly.

nemo_83 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 13, 2005, 09:45:47 AM »

The k/m setup is a combination of two polar opposites. The keyboard has more buttons than anything, but all buttons do the same thing. The mouse is the most simple of controllers using sometimes only one button and arm movement. Game pads today feature analog sticks and a comfortable number of buttons (for people who have kept up with controllers through their twenty year evolution). Analog sticks are built around the Japanese game design philosophy of character movement (the American tradition is to focus on the camera control). I feel Nintendo is both searching for a middle ground and a controller that stands as the fourth standard; allowing analog character movement, trackball camera, and most importantly the gyro which can outdo both the analog stick and trackball put together. I can understand why people are paranoid Nintendo is going to drop the ball on this thing. I mean the Cube controller was nothing but a very fancy middle finger salute. The tiny dpad, the pointlessly different c stick (it should have been a trackball), the one z button, and the PlaySkool colors backfired in their faces so bad, and the people who suffered were the people who had placed their faith in Nintendo. Now here we are again wishing Nintendo would find its way back to the top. Once again talking on message boards because there are only two games this year; one being RE4 which came out at the very beginning of the year.

To step off topic for a second; I found the vagina more complicated than I had expected. Now things much more natural. The whole urge to touch never wore off though.

Now back to the controller. I feel I have thought far too much about it. To the point were my drawings are symbols for my struggle to gain control over my own life, and at the same time the stronger my grip grows the more wildly the beast bucks.

Nile Boogie · « **Reply #14 on:** July 13, 2005, 09:48:10 AM »

Six buttons is all you need on The Retrolution Controller. That gives you all the B.C you need up until the Nintendo64 and I'm pretty sure you can you use the GameCube Controller for any N64 game. I love the idea of a simple joystick. I think the more buttons you give game companies, the better chance the game will suckballs. Sounds stupid yeah but it seems as if they put stuff in these games thats just not needed. It makes things so cumbersome. Plus, all the dames that come past my spot wont feel so out of place when they get offered a chance to play.

A DS with a gyroscope built-in, sounds perfect to me.

nemo_83 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 13, 2005, 10:00:33 AM »

I have noticed the ladies don't like the sticks.

Why do we need two sticks? They both do the same thing. You don't want to play a game controlling two characters at once. The right stick should definately be removed and replaced by a trackball.

DrGAKMANx · « **Reply #16 on:** July 13, 2005, 10:06:45 AM »

Ian Sane...
You're opinion doesn't envelope the entire gaming & non-gaming populous though.

Trackballs, touch panels and gyro tilt paks (not expensive full-out dual-weilding gyro motion control like some are suggesting) are already commonplace in technology. You say it'd scare you away, but touch screen gaming hasn't scared away NDS users. And we're talking about the Revolution's interface here, it'll be better than "just" a touch screen, I believe, if they're going that route. You say those things are turn-off's for you...well what ELSE is going to be so "revolutionary" if it's just more of the same and not something new/different?

Also...I'm not just coming to this conclussion 'cos it's what I want...I just think it makes the most sense from what Nintedno has told us about simplifying controls, attracting the non-gamer, adding something new, giving a sense of feeling as well as having a configurable design that allows for BC as well as forward compatibility. What ELSE can you think of that fits that criteria?

Spak-Spang...
I sorta agree with you...once you FEEL how comfy the GCN controller is (the hangles, L & R buttons and face button layout especially) most people take a liking to it. But, until they actually give it a chance the GCN controller has 4 different thumb possitions (as do the X-BOX & PS2 controllers) which is confusing to non-gamers and the controller itself sorta looks toylike/childish to most mainstreamists, especially compared to the competition's controllers. The Revolution's interface, I think, will deal with those problems by looking simpler as well as less childish.

Ian Sane · « **Reply #17 on:** July 13, 2005, 10:27:41 AM »

"That gives you all the B.C you need up until the Nintendo64 and I'm pretty sure you can you use the GameCube Controller for any N64 game."

No it can't. The N64 has 8 buttons (if you consider Z and L duplicates, otherwise it's 9). The Cube only has 7. And no the C-stick cannot accurately replace the C buttons for you can push two C buttons at the same time but you cannot push the C-stick in two directions at the same time. Ideally you would want the Cube controller with two more face buttons.

Truthliesn1seyes · « **Reply #18 on:** July 13, 2005, 10:44:19 AM »

The cube has 7 buttons but the R and L buttons click when pressed in, giving it 2 functions. So it might have 7 buttons but it has the function of 9. This method of clickin might not work for some games but I'm just trying to clear that up for you.

Ian Sane · « **Reply #19 on:** July 13, 2005, 10:48:46 AM »

"The cube has 7 buttons but the R and L buttons click when pressed in, giving it 2 functions. So it might have 7 buttons but it has the function of 9."

No it has the function of 7, two of which just happen to have nifty analog sensitivity. The click cannot replace a button because it requires you to push a "different" button to push it.

kirby_killer_dedede · « **Reply #20 on:** July 13, 2005, 11:39:10 AM »

Nemo, Nemo.

Ladies liking sticks?

We need more balls?

Spak-Spang · « **Reply #21 on:** July 13, 2005, 11:54:29 AM »

Nemo, and perhaps Ian:

I actually really like the design of the Cube. And I think it is very friendly to casual gamers and nongamers, it just wasn't comfortable for 1 type of game: fighters.

Most other complaints about the controller is about not having all the same buttons as the competition and not looking sleek like we would have liked.

But I have seen people pickup the Gamecube controller and be comfortable with it because the buttons made logical sense to the brain.

The Big Green button is mostly used as the main action button whatever it is. The next button the red button is for the secondary action. It is very simple to understand. All the other controllers don't have a unique feel to each button and its intimidating to some.

The Revolution can make games even easier by keeping this philosophy.

Removing a control stick for a trackball for instance will allow people to mentally distinguish the two as very items on the controller.

IceCold · « **Reply #22 on:** July 13, 2005, 11:57:42 AM »

Ah, where to begin?

Oh yeah, first off, tut tut KDR & nemo, I thought we said "innuendos aside"..

OK,

"If you have to simplify, simplify the GAMES not the controller."

But, see, some people don't even get into the games; as soon as they look at the controller they make up their mind that it's too complicated to use. And then when they try a game, it's even worse. I'll give my Dad as an example. He tried to use the analogue stick once and he absolutely HATED it; he didn't even know what was going on. And he used to love the NES; we used to play together a lot. Now, compare this to the DS - we know that it is capable of some extremely complicated games, but first I let my Dad try some of the minigames in SM64DS. He loved them, and it got him hooked on the DS. It started with a simple game, but now because of that he is actually trying out other more complicated games, and is finding out how to use the DS easily enough. This is what Nintendo should aim for.

Next,

The Gamecube controller, all faults aside, was the most comfortable and appealing of all of them. It ust fits in your hand so perfectly that you feel like playing as soon as you touch it. This most definitely can not be said about the Xbox and PS2 controllers. And the Wavebird just took the cake. And the digital click was great, but not many developers at all used it, which was a shame. One problem was that devs who made games with the PS2 in mind ported them to the Cube with horrible controls (fighters especially). So I'm sure that the Rev's controller will be comfortable and intuitive, like all Nintendo controllers are.

kirby_killer_dedede · « **Reply #23 on:** July 13, 2005, 12:44:37 PM »

I just hope Nintendo doesn't do what they did with N64 (two ways of holding the controller for analog/digital). I just felt that was stupid.

IceCold · « **Reply #24 on:** July 13, 2005, 12:55:09 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: kirby_killer_dedede
I just hope Nintendo doesn't do what they did with N64 (two ways of holding the controller for analog/digital). I just felt that was stupid.

That was because it was the first console to use the analogue stick so devs weren't used to it, and could use the d-pad & L instead of the analogue stick & Z.

And I liked it.

News:

Author Topic: Pearing down the Revolution controller (Read 52127 times)