Topic: PSP vs. DS ... Final Verdict (G4)

[RickPowers]

http://www.g4tv.com/xplay/features/51374/Verdict_Sony_PSP_vs_Nintendo_DS.html

The verdict (for those of you that are reading compared, is that the PSP wins out, though G4 admits that the comparison isn't entirely fair, because of the different markets they're aimed at.  Not unsurprisingly, the DS won in the Gameplay category only.  What was surprising is that the PSP won the VALUE category.  Why?  Because while the PSP costs more, the big-name exclusives they're getting, coupled with the inevitable price drop for the holidays makes it a really big deal.  As for the DS, while some big games are coming, the gameplay (Nintendo's hallmark) looks to be the same as what's already been done on the system ... meaning the "innovation" that the touchscreen was supposed to generate just isn't happening.

An interesting comment at the end of the article is what's pushed me to post this.  "The PSP's real competition will be the next iteration of the Game Boy, which is currently in the concept stages. And if rumors swirling around the industry are true, the PSP will have a tough fight on its hands when that day comes. But until then, the Nintendo DS is nothing more than a decent idea being used as a stop-gap to limit the sales of the Sony PSP until the next Game Boy is ready. But after people get Sony's slick machine in their hands, I question just how well the tactic will work."

What do you think about that?  Is the DS just keeping gamers busy (and attention diverted from the PSP) until the next GameBoy is released?  If it's really the third pillar, why add a GBA slot (a question Nintendo has never satisfactorily answered)?

[clevelandst124]

I can't believe that people judge the innovation of the ds after being out for almost 4 months after an extremely rushed launch.  A real judge of innovation should come after this holiday season.

Second gameplay is the only thing I actually care about.  I want a handheld to have the best games period.  If I want other multimedia accessories I'll buy the ones that are good, not an all in one shoddy package.

I also, don't think the next gameboy is coming out soon.  
1.  It'll kill the ds if this is true.  People will stop buying and developers will stop producing.
2.  It'll turn off Nintendo fans that forgave Nintendo for releasing the ds so close to the sp.  
3.  The next gameboy doesn't have as good of a chance to beat the PSP.  Maybe the ds doesn't have a good shot.  However, the next gameboy is 1 of 2 things.
1.The next $99 game boy.  If this is true, this is a sign that Nintendo is not trying to compete with the PSP.  Instead they are giving the high end hand held market to the PSP.  
2.It's an amazing console that we can guess will cost around the $250 that the PSP costs.  Then the question is why wait?  What would Nintendo bring to the table different than the PSP.  Sony has the third party support.  So if Nintendo brings out a direct competitor to the PSP it will probably be Gamecube vs. PS2 all over again.  A year late and third party support short.

That's why I think that Nintendo has to stay the course with the ds for now.  And the ds is doing well.  The PSP is currently leading in Japan, but prices are much closer in Japan.  I think the PSP cost about 25% more and games cost the same in Japan.  I'm surprised Nintendo is doing as well as they are given this.  In America, the PSP will cost about 67% more and games will cost 25% more.  I've been wrong before, but I think that is a very big deal and that Sony is overestimating thier good start in Japan.

[KnowsNothing]

Isn't one console just keeping us busy until the next one?  Even if the DS is just a "filler" system, it's a damn good one that Nintendo's obvioulsy cares about (otherwise they wouldn't be taking it online..)

"Honestly, the Nintendo DS is barely capable of displaying serviceable 3D visuals."

I think that Mario 64  has "servicable" 3d visuals, and it's a launch title that wasn't even built for the system...

I found this to be a pretty poor article, but whatever. What bugs me the most is that people complain that the touchscreen may not be used in more innovative ways than it is now.  First of all, it will, but second of all- why does it need to?  The DS has all of these special features to give developers options- why do we complain when one of them isn't used?  Even if devs use the DS in the most uninspired way and don't make use of ANY of the extra feautres, what do you have? You have what you've been playing- contently- for years (arguably a PSP game...)  

[Caterkiller]

I don't care what I read or what Nintendo said about the DS being a 3rd pillar and what not, I am pretty sure this is basicly our next gameboy. We won't be seeing a new Nintendo handheld for quite some time.

I didn't see what you saw but I did see how the Judgement Day guys compared the PSP to the DS at last years E3, and just made it seem like the DS was very poor in comparison to the DS. Im pretty confident that later on down the road the PSP will not be nearly as great as its cracked up to be. I would never pay 50 bucks a pop for any single handheld game, and I doubt that most folks who did/do buy handheld games often would be so willing either.

If future DS titles can be as cool and entertaining from the get-go like Yoshi Touch and Go, then I have no doubt that the DS will eventualy be the handheld system to own.  Though things are different now'a days, this is alot like the cool-color-screen-black Game Gear VS the ugly-no-colores-but-green/gray Game Boy.

[ruby_onix]

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...coupled with the inevitable price drop for the holidays...

It really seems surprising to me how many people are banking on that. Especially when most of the reports about the PSP's profitability (which is apparently of ABSOLUTELY no concern to any real gamer) suggest that it ain't gonna happen for quite a while.

The problem with the videogaming media is that they seem to have zero regard for price right now. And why would they? They're all hardcore types who will get both the DS and the PSP, no matter the cost.

I was watching the Electric Playground the other day, and Tommy and Vic had a face off between the DS and PSP. "Which one is better?" The PSP "is better", they concluded. But not once did they even mention the price difference. They touted the "amazing multimedia abilities" of the PSP. But they didn't mention that to take advantage of those abilities, you need to buy a Memory Stick that costs about as much as the DS does by itself.

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But until then, the Nintendo DS is nothing more than a decent idea being used as a stop-gap to limit the sales of the Sony PSP until the next Game Boy is ready.

Everyone seems to want to pidgeonhole the DS as merely a "stop-gap" device, saying that the PSP's philosophy (losing bucketloads of money to bring handheld technology even with consoles) is the "right" future, and that Nintendo knows it but won't admit it.

(BTW, I do agree that Nintendo timed the DS's release to be a "PSP spoiler", but I don't see anything wrong with that.)

Personally, I think the traditional GameBoy "inferiority" has a place in the videogame world. Rare is well-known for using their handheld team as a "training ground" for their "real" game development. GameArts' Lunar 3 has been in development-limbo on the PS2 for years. Now it's coming out for the DS. Because they can handle making a DS game, more than they can a cutting-edge one. The guys who made Shantae on the GBC had a GBA sequel in the works, but they couldn't get it published. They're trying again on the DS. Does anyone think they could possibly put together a PSP or Xbox2 game? Theoretically, more powerful hardware makes making any game easier, but everyone always raises the bar of what's considered "acceptable". Especially Sony.

The PSP is interchangable with the PS2. Except that you have to buy your games twice (GT4). And we've already seen at least one PSP "killer app" get quietly turned into a PS2 game (Project Melfes/Tales of Legendia). What's the biggest rumor regarding the so-called "next GameBoy"? That it's a portable GameCube. Sure, that'd be nice, but really, what's the point? Is it worth killing off the handheld industry as we know it?

IMO, the DS is the next GameBoy. We may or may not see some sort of "next GameBoy" in name, but the DS is the next GameBoy in spirit.

I'm really not trying to rag on the PSP. I think it's really nice. I'd get one if I had the money (although I'd get a DS first). But it just seems that the Sony hype-machine is running in overdrive. It's putting the PS2 launch hype to shame, and that's really saying a lot.

[SgtShiversBen]

I think the reason why we see the GBA cart slot in the DS is because they're finally going to kill of the cart thing in general.  Have you looked how thin the DS would be if it didn't include that?  Folded it'd be like 3/4 inches thick.  That's really tiny.  

Also I think that they next GameBoy will use some sort of different type of media but won't put the backwards compatibility with it because the DS already has it.  It is a third pillar in that it carries on the GBA media (which developers can still use to port games for cheap prices) or make innovations that wouldn't work on a conventional system.  While on the other hand the next GB could (and I think would be great) play old GameCube games.  Not only would the system already have an installed user base of 15 million (plus Revvie owners) it'd do what Nintendo has wanted to do all along, and that is make the GameCube last for like 10 years.

If they can do it, I see no harm (besides development costs and all that, but that was what I was saying the DS would be for).  It gives developers the option of making cheap games on the GBA.  Middle cost games with innovations on the DS, or powerful handheld games for the GameBoy Cubed.  It's all there and doesn't make people pick which one they want.  The get the DS and are satisfied cause it plays a giant collection, or the get the PGC and also get a giant collection.

It's foolproof to me (though I am a fool).  

[RickPowers]

"It really seems surprising to me how many people are banking on that. Especially when most of the reports about the PSP's profitability (which is apparently of ABSOLUTELY no concern to any real gamer) suggest that it ain't gonna happen for quite a while."

Sony isn't concerned about the profitability of the hardware.  Sony is taking QUITE a loss, actually.  Sony is going to make it up not only on games (royalties) but also on movies released on the UMD format.  Remember, the royalties come UP FRONT, not when the movies are sold.  If the movies do well enough to induce studios to continue releasing movies (and audio, from what I hear) on the format, Sony could move into profitability remarkably fast compared to the PS2.

Anyway, why are people so sure that Sony will drop the price for the holidays?  Simple ... there is a lower cost "standard" PSP pack available in Japan already.  Sony dropping the extraneous accessories and lowering the price to $199 (which isn't really a price drop when you remove the case, headphones/remote, strap, cloth, and free copy of SpiderMan 2 UMD) is really a no-brainer.  A perceived price drop is still a lower price to most consumers.  In fact, by not bundling in the accessories, Sony might even be losing LESS money at that price point, but I'm not entirely sure.

Anyway, to get the thread back on track, I think I see what the author of the article is getting at.  On cursory examination, the gameplay for many of the "touch" games on DS look incredibly similar.  Never mind that on most consoles, you're either moving the stick, pressing a button, or a combination of the two.  The DS touch games have you tapping the screen, or drawing a line.  For some reason (and I have to include myself in this), people are starting to wonder when something besides the obvious will be done with the touchscreen.  Remember, while there are still games coming, the press has already seen, and in many cases PLAYED the upcoming games, and the gameplay is the same.  What does it say that Feel the Magic is almost identical to Wario Ware: Touched, which is identical to the mini-games in Mario 64 DS, etc, etc?  From what we've been shown, the new games coming play very similarly, with the only difference being the interval between taps or lines.

That's a very simplistic view, I'll admit, but I think that's the problem ... the games might very well be innovative, but they don't FEEL innovative.  People are saying that the next run of games that are online will fix that, but how can they when the PSP will already have had online games on a handheld?  Once you get past online, the only real avenue for innovation is going to be in how the two screens are used, but it's not looking good there either.

I want to like the DS ... I really do.  Mario 64 DS was an impulse purchase, because I wanted SOMETHING to show off the system to people.  But I have yet to find another game that will do that BETTER.

[jromz03]

I'm somewhat agree with G4's verdict.

Unless Nintendo shows us fresh and not rehashed games, and a REAL innovative use of the touch screen, the DS is nothing more than a stop-gap to halt the PSP's momentum.

Looks like Nintendo just handed the handheld market to Sony

[Caterkiller]

Yoshi is an amazing show off game. And playing does feel innovative.  

[Ian Sane]

"What do you think about that? Is the DS just keeping gamers busy (and attention diverted from the PSP) until the next GameBoy is released? If it's really the third pillar, why add a GBA slot (a question Nintendo has never satisfactorily answered)?"

I think Nintendo added the GBA slot because people asked for it.  It's like the Cube controller's z button and d-pad.  The original design didn't have those, people complained, so they added them.  The problem is they just threw a z button on and added the GBA d-pad.  They didn't actually get what people were asking for.  People didn't want a button called "z" they wanted a gun-like trigger like the N64 had.  People didn't just want a d-pad they wanted a method of digital control.  Here I think Nintendo misinterpretted what people were really asking for.  They just threw the slot on without link cable support or GBC playback.  What people really were asking for was the next Gameboy with full backwards compatibility.  They weren't asking for a "third pillar" with GBA support slapped in.

I used to think the DS was the next Gameboy because logically it makes no sense for it not to be.  But Nintendo has been very insistent on calling it a third pillar, despite the fact that almost everyone regards it as the next Gameboy and that at this point releasing the "real Gameboy" would be a total public relations nightmare.  I think they do regard it as the third pillar because there would be no explanation for their weird behaviour otherwise.

I don't think however that it's just a stop gap until the next Gameboy.  I truly think they think they can have three systems going at once with two being only marginally different from each other.  Of course the problem now is that Nintendo's perception of the situation is completely different than everybody else's.  If they release a new Gameboy any time soon people are going to think the DS is a lame duck and that Nintendo was trying to rip them off.  If they don't release a new Gameboy soon they're stuck with the DS which is not going to be able to compete with the PSP if it's just a niche gimmick system.

Nintendo's only option is to make the DS the next Gameboy by giving it the support they would give to it if it was the sole portable.  That means they have to expand the library beyond quirky touchscreen games.  They have to focus on releasing great portable games, even if they don't make use of the DS features.  The goal should be to release as many great games as possible.  If they use the touchscreen that's great.  If they don't, well, next time don't put extra stuff on a system without thinking up any good ideas that use it beforehand.  They're still a little screwed in that they promised innovation and haven't delivered yet and may never do so but having a kick ass portable that has great games is more important.

[Pale]

Rick, it amazes me you are so into this PSP thing that you would post a G4 write up...god I hate that network...

Anyway...

The PSP is going to sell..... but UMD movies are gonna take off like like Minidiscs...  Fool me once Sony, shame on you...  I won't be fooled twice.

Isn't the rumor that one of the main reasons for the leadership change up was because of Sony constantly trying to create these new standards?  Its just stupid really.  Even the gameboy video sells like crap, and thats targeting a demographic that can't afford portable dvd players.  Anyone who pays good money for a UMD is just dumb, like I was when I bought studio produced MiniDiscs back in the day.

My conclusion... G4 is to video games what the current MTV is to music, and the PSP will sell well but many of the non-gaming related features will be quickly forgotten.  

[Pale]

Another thing I would like to say is that it will be interesting to see not how much the PSP sells, but how much less both the DS and GBA sell.  I still think that less that 20 percent of total psp sales is going to be attributable to a decline in DS/GBA sales.

[kennyb27]

I've never watched G4, as I don't receive it on my cable plan, but it's obvious to me now why they are so often complained about.

For Value section:

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While its software library is weak so far, it's only a matter of time until all the third-party exclusives like Grand Theft Auto start rolling in.

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. The Nintendo DS has a weak library now, and it really doesn't look to be getting any better anytime soon. Sure, there's Castlevania and Mario Kart, but those games look to use the touch screen abilities in the same way they've been used already.

How can he put these two sentences in the same article, much less the same paragraph.  He's saying "well, both systems don't have good software right now, but the PSP will eventually and let's face it, the DS won't.  I won't take into account the many games that aren't announced yet."  As I look at the rest of this year for the DS I get really excited (despite my complaints of a lack of games recently), I can't wait for Nintendogs, Kirby, MarioKart, Animal Crossing, Pokemon, and many more I can't think of off the top of my head.  Yet, he justifies these games' releases by saying they will use the touch screen in the same way?  What the hell?!  I bet alot of PSP games use the analog stick to move characters around too.

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Couple that with a likely price drop around the holidays, and the PSP will go from must-have status symbol to mass market smash.

This part really made me scratch my head.  Even if the PSP drops it's price at the holidays, how will that help its value now?  The article is focusing on recommending a purchase now, isn't it?

More on a personal pet peeve side:  I guess they are comparing the systems as more than game machines, but why?  It is a sad day in the industry where a gaming machine gets points off because all it does is --get this-- play GAMES.

[Don'tHate742]

It really depends on what the new GameBoy is.

If it's a completely new system that tears away from the Gameboy line and ventures into a different world (ie using disks), then I think the DS can survive. People will buy the new Gamboy, but it's the DS that keeps the backwards-compatibility feature that the Gameboy line is known for. I also think that anyway you look at, yes, the DS is just keeping attention diverted from the PSP. But, and this is a big but (no pun intended), the DS  with it's new founded attention will allow it to continue even after the Gameboy is released. Those developers that can't afford to develope for high-powered console/handheld hybrids, can develope for the DS; a good alternative that provides a unique gaming experience. It also really depends on what can become of the DS, in terms of this new gaming experience. The PSP and GBE will bring the type of play already seen in consoles today; this is the DS's key to survival. It must show us something incredibly fun that can't be replicated on other consoles; a killer app in different gameplay, of sorts.

My theory is the new GB will use the mini-disk employed in the GC. This allows for the DS to keep it's backwards-compatibility with the GBA as a main purchasing factor. Nintendo (I hope) really thought out including the GBA slot. It at first makes them appear like they were puffing smoke, calling the DS "third-pillar". The DS isn't a GB, but looking at it's BWC, it's looking like one. People un-aware will take it for a new GB, and buy it as such. In Nintendo's book, that's great. It attracts attention away from the PSP, and slows down the eating of their marketshare, while still allowing the GBA to live on. The PSP essentially did the samething, but used confusion to attract sales. People are making the mistake of thinking that the PSP is actually a Portable PS2. It's not, yet it's gaining sales because of it. Nintendo can claim console-capability as fact and use that to their advantage. Add this to the backwards-capable Revolution, and you have a very usable piece of hardware, unlike the PSP. Also, Nintendo needs to release the new GB to directly compete with the PSP to completely irradicate it, and soon for that matter. The PSP will keep eating the marketshare, and there's really nothing the DS can do about it. They don't want to kill the DS though, and releasing a beautiful piece of GB hardware too soon will. The DS needs to mature into a great alternate gaming experience, for it is the answer to a very important Nintendo-made question.

That question is: How can we (Nintendo) keep attention away from the PSP long enough to ready the launch of the new GB, and at the same time keep two systems alive, when one is incredibly more powerful than the other? The answer: Launch a handheld that provides a very unique gaming experience, so unique in fact, that it can't be replicated and that it'll survive the stress caused by new handhelds that are essentially a super-upgraded GBA. Nintendo evidently thought about this alot. What can provide such a unique experience that it'll attract attention regardless of the appereance of super-handhelds? DS was their answer and we've all ready seen it competing well against the PSP. It'll only grab more attention with new titles, online functionality, and *gasp* PDA functions. The DS can also expand the market, allowing for two handhelds to coincide. It was a great answer to Nintendo's own question. It all comes to how Nintendo markets both now. When, where, and what capabilities, are huge questions that need to be thought out very thoroughly. If Nintendo rushes the launch of the GBE, it'll kill the DS before it has grabbed enough attention, in other words, matured. Same is true if they wait too long, the PSP will eat away Nintendo's market share for every month they don't release detials about the upcoming handheld. Nintendo needs to blow away the competion with a stellar DS show. Show us everything it is capable of and give us examples (games and such) that use these functions. Make people want the DS, for only then can it really slow the PSP's market-share grabbing. The DS must thrive this year (christmas especially).

Your probably wondering why they didn't just ready a new GB to launch with the PSP. Why release a system who's main function is to take away attention away from the PSP? Why not launch the GB in the first place? If the PSP is any evidence, it would of been terribly in three categories: Battery Life; Controls; Durability. Nintendo (I think) is perfecting this system as we speak. They are trying to get the most out of the battery life, while trying to keep the controls akin to the GC-controllers. That is why I don't expect it to release for a while. I do think though that it'll be revealed either next year at E3, which may be too soon. Two years from this years E3 sounds right. The DS in actuality has three main goals: Attract attention from the PSP, weaking it; Expand the market; Provide a unique experience, to allow it to live side-by-side with the new GB. 2 down, 1 to go!

[Mario]

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PSP is better than DS, DISCUSS

OK, U R RONG DS IS BETTER

Why exactly do some people think the next Gameboy will be so great? Because it will be powerful? Because there is nothing known about it, and the only thing anyone can assume is that it will be more powerful, and that that's it's job. They don't care that it will probably have a port as a launch title? Nobody cares that PSP has 90% ports as launch titles, so I guess not, all that matters is how many specs and teraflops it has. Graphic whores annoy me, there is no reason to look forward to the next Gameboy, we have the current Gameboy to play, the DS, and I think it's the best damn portable gaming system ever.

If the next Gameboy is a portable GameCube then it will easily be able to co-exist with the DS. I hope this portable GameCube turns into a reality.

PSP? I have a PS2, and i'm not interested in playing the same games outside.. oh wait PSP isn't meant to be played outside, well i'm not interested in playing the same games in a room without a tv. One thing that pisses me off about the PSP is that it's taking developer resources away from the PS2, I might think about buying Lumines for PS2, but there's no way i'm getting the PSP version, there is no game on PSP worth $300 US, and looking at all the games coming soon, I doubt there ever will be.

[Mario]

About the touch screen feeling the same with every game, it's because you're using the same input device. Does every GC game feel the same because they all use the same controller? No. Then why do people think the DS does? It has buttons too, it's interesting how in Super Mario 64 DS you use two completely different control methods, for the minigames I can put the DS down on a desk and just poke the screen to play, when i'm playing the main game I have to pick it up and hold it. I like the touch screen only mini games much more. That's also a reason why I love Wario Ware Touched so much, it's so easy to play and be comfortable with for me.

Rick, why don't you use Wario Ware Touched to show off your DS? When I show that to people they are amazed and they think the game is hilarious. It's the DS killer app as far as i'm concerned.

[Savior]

Its X-Play though, they were never really anti nintendo until recently. To me its one of the few watchable shows on the network,

"intended for the Nintendo DS to compete with the PSP, but it's inevitable that people (like you and I) would compare the two anyway.

The PSP's real competition will be the next iteration of the Game Boy,"


This is 100 percent correct. I disagree with the idea that the DS was only made to hurt the PSPS launch, i trully belive Nintendo intends that the DS be a third pillar.  But realistically the Portable GCN, the Gameboy Evolution will be the real competitor. Better graphics, larger library and probably either an internal Hard Drive, or integrated Play Yan. It will take back all the marketshare that Sony will gain.

I am worried the DS will be the casualty. Especially since i own a DS and it wasnt cheap. But i guess Mario Kart DS, Metroid Prime DS, Animal Crossing Online, it will hold me till 2006.

[RickPowers]

"The PSP is going to sell..... but UMD movies are gonna take off like like Minidiscs... Fool me once Sony, shame on you... I won't be fooled twice."

I think that Sony WISHES that UMD takes off like Minidiscs.  Minidiscs were INCREDIBLY popular in Japan.  It was only in the US that they didn't take off.  You guys really need to broaden your horizons a bit.

"Rick, why don't you use Wario Ware Touched to show off your DS? When I show that to people they are amazed and they think the game is hilarious. It's the DS killer app as far as i'm concerned. "

Because I don't own it.  I won't buy it, because I'll get maybe an hour or two of gameplay out of it, and I'll be done.  I also don't see how the games are any different than the last Wario Ware game, which I bought and finished very quickly.  Using the stylus does NOT make the game more fun.

Right there ... that right there is where Nintendo made the mistake with the DS.  I think that somewhere along the line, someone at Nintendo thought that using something different to interact with a game would make it inherently MORE FUN than using buttons.  It doesn't.  In fact, it's kind of tedious.  That little thumb-nubbin on the DS strap is also tedious.  It just doesn't work.  I had great hopes, but all the games so far are the exact same variation of drawing a line or rubbing the screen.  It's not new, it's not innovative, it's just another METHOD.

Let's see if I can come at this a different way ... There are a lot of PC accessories that have been released over the years that have aimed to improve gaming, many of them geared towards the first-person shooter crowd.  For the most part, the further they stray from the mouse/keyboard combo, the worse they do, even if they make the feel of the game more immersive.  Gamers rejected them, sometimes because they slowed reaction time, sometimes because they just didn't want to learn something else.  But invariably, it's because the devices didn't add any fun ... they were just another method of doing the same thing.

It's called transparency of controls.  The controls have to become instantly intuitive and invisible to the player.  I think Jonny was dancing around this issue in his editorial ... the DS will never achieve transparency, because the touchscreen requires too much of the user.  Your hand or your stylus will ALWAYS obscure a portion of the screen.

I think I'll use this opportunity to reiterate what I think the true problem for the DS is going to be, and Nintendo's hope that the touchscreen is going to provoke innovation from the game design community: touchscreens aren't new!  The touchscreen has been used in Pocket PC and Palm devices for years, and there are a ton of games for them.  Not a single one uses the touchscreen in a way that I'd consider innovative.  Either the stylus becomes a mouse, or you're using it to draw lines or tap the screen ... everything we've seen the DS do already!

I would love to be proven wrong, and I hope I will.  I hope that there is a game coming that will make me eat my words, make me wonder how I could have ever doubted what the touchscreen could bring.  But I think that if such a game were indeed coming ... we'd already know about it, because that's all they'd be talking about!

[Mario]

Well i'll just have to disagree with you and leave you alone then, because I love the touch screen, more than buttons. You must also have a different way of looking at games than I do because i've put tons of hours (15-20) into Wario Ware Touched and haven't even started getting the ribbons yet. And the games are different, does what you see on the screen mean anything to you at all?  

[ruby_onix]

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Sony isn't concerned about the profitability of the hardware. Sony is taking QUITE a loss, actually. Sony is going to make it up not only on games (royalties) but also on movies released on the UMD format.

I think the thing most people are forgetting (or taking for granted) about the PSP is that it essentially had a massive price cut before the PSP ever launched. Is Sony going to try and catch their breath this Christmas, or are they going to push even harder, to try and keep the PSP going as a massive money-pit?

(BTW, I'm setting aside the idea of Sony nixing the Value Pack as their price cut, because I don't think that makes much sense, but... who knows? They just might do that.)

I can see that Sony would totally love it if UMD caught on, but I can't see them throwing endless money away to make it happen (especially now that Kutaragi's not in charge anymore), because I can't see it ever catching on, as it's plainly inferior to DVD.

That's why I don't think we'll see a (real) PSP price cut by Christmas.

IMO, if Sony was as forward-thinking as everyone wants to give them credit for, the PSP would be using mini-Blu-Ray.

[Bill Aurion]

Wow, I can't believe I'm going to say this, but Rick you are wrong...Wrong, wrong, wrong...And wrong because I know I'm right in saying that Wario Ware is an absolute blast, and yes, using the stylus DOES make it more fun...Because that's why we play games right?  We play games because they are FUN...Stylus play does that for me; pulls me into the game...Makes me feel like I'm actually playing the game rather than leading a character...THAT is what Ninty is doing, and if you want to play the same old generic games on the PSP go right ahead...I'll stick with games that actually do something different and are FUN...

(Gotta love asserting one's opinion, which this is my own...I don't like giving the feeling my opinion is fact)

[Galford]

Wow, another nugget of wisdom from the flaming wad of crap known as G4.
It's way to early to tell whether the DS on PSP will win.
Still, Nintendo needs to launch some more AAA titles for the DS.

[RickPowers]

"And the games are different, does what you see on the screen mean anything to you at all?"

I have yet to see anything on that screen that makes good use of it, so I have to say that right now, no, it doesn't.  Drawing a line to create a trampoline, and drawing a line to cut a carrot in half is still drawing a line.  Eventually I'm sure we'll see a spy game where you have to draw lines to connect electronic circuits, or draw a line to cut the connections to defuse a bomb.  But none of that is innovative, and doing it with your stylus doesn't make it more fun, just different.

I guess I just fundamentally believe that fun has to be in the game, not in the hardware.

Edit: I'm going to make a correction here.  I have seen ONE game that makes good use of the screen ... Metroid Prime: Hunters.  I have only played the demo, and I'd say that it's probably the only really innovative title I've seen, because you have to manipulate the stylus (or nubbin) and the controls at the same time in Stylus mode.  Using the stylus to aim, at the same time your other hand is moving and shooting is pretty intense.  Nintendo just needs to get the game released ...

[KnowsNothing]

But you're still just drawing lines on the screen!  Oh, and in Mario 64 I used the nub and the buttons at the same time too.  I fail to see why Hunters stands out.

[mantidor]

I disagree, I think that the touchscreen is the most transparent input device, its the most intuitive of them all. Weve been playing games with a D-pad for practically 20 years, so all the game reviewers everywhere are going to say its not intuitive, that its ackward, and that it plainly sucks, but thats only because we are already  very used to the old ways! all Im reading around all the internet is people that just hate games having an awesome time with the DS. In all honest and turth, can anything be more intuitive an accesible than touching your game? imo only Virtual Reality, and we are still far from it. The problem is again the old crowd of gamers, who would and will be happy with the same. Im sure most of us wouldnt mind at all playing with the same input device (for example, current controls) for twenty years and on, because we have happened to fall in love and in some cases to have an almost sick affection for games (yes, me ), but we are not enough to make the industry stay alive, the DS trully opens new gates, the hardcore gamers in general are the ones who dont want to cross them because they are pretty happy with what they have now. Im willing to try the DS when I can with a totally open mind.

[RickPowers]

Because you're not using the stylus as a "fake pen", which is what most of the games are doing.  I've never "drawn a line" in Metroid.  You're using it more like a joystick of sorts (it's closer to a mouse, really).  What you're doing on the touchscreen is not LITERAL.  Maybe that's the difference.  I'm not rubbing someone's stomach, I'm not drawing a picture.  I'm looking around, but using the stylus to do it.  Something about that just feels right.

Mario 64 had dual-handed control as well, but I found that using the touchscreen to MOVE felt clunky and awkward (likewise in Metroid).  However, Metroid allows you to move with the D-Pad, but you aim with the stylus?  Why does that work better?  I'm really not entirely sure, but it does.  With Mario, I quickly switched to using the D-Pad and buttons unless I had to do the swinging around move.

Mantidor ...

Funny you mention that.  Microsoft tried this back with Windows 3.0, nearly a DECADE ago.  They added pen input to Windows, and it was a collosal failure.  They keey trying, because the theory is that using a pen (stylus) is intuitive ... we know how to do it.  Yet try as they might, people reject it on the desktop.  Could it be because the mouse is a better interface, or because we've already learned a different way?  I have to think that if it's really that intuitive, what we've already learned shouldn't matter, because we learned to write far before that, right?

Stylus input works on PDAs, but only because there is no other input method.  Even so, manufacturers keep adding buttons and "jog dials" and other things so that people can access programs without the stylus!  There's a disconnect, and I have to think that it's because while using a pen is intuitive, it's also sloppy, time consuming, and imprecise.  I could be wrong in my assessment, but the facts themselves can't be denied ... rarely does a pen interface succeed when other input mechanisms are available.

[Savior]

Speaking about Metroid

I think Nintendos Fumble might actually help out in the end. Had nintendo released some better games since the launch of the DS sales would be even better, and we wouldnt hear how the PSP is better, but in the long run it might help

In the last 6 months of 2005, the DS will have a slew of great games, Prime Hunters, Mario Kart, Animal Crossing, Castlevania. The PSP Doesnt really have alot in the near future. Theres the promise of GTA PSP true but still the software  balance will skew Nintendos way. They just have to weather the initial storm of March-April-May-June that will see Sony get some momentum

Oh and i agree with you 100 percent about Metroid being The Game Rick..  I read it might not be online though. Im hoping Nintendo reconsiders and makes it 8 player online enabled.

[mantidor]

About the microsoft example... the whole touch interface failed solely because of the input device itself? didnt the high price (because I suppose that touching technology  a whole ten years ago was expensive) didnt have anything to do with it? I really think that it wasnt just touching, it was another number of factors, it wasnt time for it yet. In fact Im willing to bet that in the future touching input will be the rule, I havent the slightest doubt about that, and Im not basing that just on hollywood and science fiction in general, Im seeing it every day.

Even if the problem with windows was solely due to the touchscreen I honestly think it was because we are already used to use a mouse as an input device, if its really superior then why every single museum Ive been to uses touching screens instead of puting a mouse? touching is essentially easier, the problem again is the already defined userbase, I really cant explain myself any better so Ill put two examples:

1) the Dvorjak (sp?) keyboard arrangement has already been proved to be superior to the qwerty arrangement, but we know theres no way in hell it will become standard, never, even if someone actually pulls out a big campain to make it known to the average consumer, this is an extreme case scenario similar of what its happening with the touchscreen as an input device.

2) I have a really hard time trying to teach my mom to use the controller of the GC, even for such simple games as Mario Party, my brother has tried to play with her many, many times, but always she walks out, she finds it boring, and frustrating, can you really say that she will have the same reaction when playing Yoshi's touch and go or WarioWare?

[RickPowers]

Dvorak will never work because people have invested too much time and money in the current "standard".  Sometimes it's not a question of what's better, sometimes it's a matter of not fixing what isn't entirely broken.  I think trying to get pen input into computers is trying to fix what isn't entirely broken.

That said, there are always exceptions.  I recently got to borrow a Tablet PC from HP, and while the resolution was low, and my handwriting sucks, there is a killer app for the Tablet PC that (if it were to get more exposure) could prove to be the system seller, as it were.  Microsoft has a note-taking application called OneNote that accepts typing, handwriting, audio, screenshots, etc ... into note pages, then catalogs and indexes them.  It's incredibly powerful, and I'd love to get a Tablet PC just for that.

Back onto the subject ... I think you have a point (one that I've been WAITING for someone to bring up), and that's the fact that the new interface is non-intuitive for GAMERS, but is perfect for non-gamers.  And therein lies my concern ... I think Nintendo is going to continue to make simplistic games  that use the stylus in not terribly innovative ways, because they are intentionally using the DS to attract non-gamers (or "casual gamers", as Nintendo likes to call them).  Judging by the current slate of software, I think that's probably accurate.  I just hope that this doesn't end up being a case of either/or for the marketplace.

[Noble~Feather]

My opinion? Just don't listen to sources like that.

When I say "Like that", I mean they just aren't as profesional as most sources.

"Like that" sources would include G4, Joystiq, 1UP, ect. Even IGN, in some cases.

[Berto2K]

Quote
Originally posted by: RickPowers
Eventually I'm sure we'll see a spy game where you have to draw lines to connect electronic circuits, or draw a line to cut the connections to defuse a bomb.

But you do that in the game you are loathing so much in the beginning of this thread Rick.  In Wario Ware Touched! you do diffuse bombs with the stylus, and you do connect wires to form circuits.  But you don't like to "draw lines" in DS games, and that is what has to take place for both of these actions.

Have you played any PSP games yet Rick?  I asking because I don't know.

From what I have played at press gamers days and at GDC, PSP games have graphics and thats bout it.  People are going crazy for Lumines.  I like puzzle games yet this bored me.  Ac!d plays like crap and I can't wait for people from the US (who can't wait for it) start playing it and realize how clunky and slow it is.  

As Mario said, the large majority of PSP launch games are either ports or sports.  Sports will be the major selling point for the system.  That is the only genre apart from FPS (which control better on DS with the "mouse-look" type control) which the mass gaming public want more graphics in.

[Mario]

Quote
Back onto the subject ... I think you have a point (one that I've been WAITING for someone to bring up), and that's the fact that the new interface is non-intuitive for GAMERS, but is perfect for non-gamers.

Now where have I heard that before?

[Shecky]

I want to see games that don't use the touchscreen for gameplay.  I get this impression that if a "PSP *like*" game were released for the DS, it would be dinged for not using the touchscreen.

Better example, think the next EA NFL title.  Picture a version for the PSP.  Say it has good looks, online play, etc, etc.  Now picture moving that to the DS.  Ok maybe the graphics get toned down a bit.  However what if everything else were exactly the same?  I say it's just as good a game then.  I'm sure though people will complain of how they can't pick their plays with the touch screen, or heck that they can't just "call out" their plays to the microphone.  If they are included as a bonus way of doing things, or interfacing, great!  Why ding it if it doesn't though.

<rant> Try pausing in SMB64 DS and navigating the pause menu with just the buttons... go ahead try.  I personally use the D-Pad to play that game and if I wan't to pause and use that menu... I need to change my method of input - gar!</rant>

In the Madden example I see 3 things roughly happening:
1) Normal Madden game, akin to what you'd get on the PSP
2) Normal Madden + "DS" features
3) Normal Madden + "DS" features - Online

What would be great is 2, what would be second best in my book is 1.  Unfortunately, what I see companies potentially doing is perhaps choosing 3.  

[Noble~Feather]

Well, I read the entire thread.

Appearently, it is thought that the DS uses the same input in touch screen all the time, and it wouldn't matter if it just had games that didn't use ANY of the DS features, but were still good. Which is true.

All that matters is the games. People call DS a gimmick, and right now (note that) it might very well be. But this doesn't matter. All that matters is that it has good games; that's what matters for all game systems.

Me personally... I think the DS has the most exciting line-up of any game system ever since the SNES. And that is truely saying something.

[RickPowers]

"But you do that in the game you are loathing so much in the beginning of this thread Rick. In Wario Ware Touched! you do diffuse bombs with the stylus, and you do connect wires to form circuits. But you don't like to "draw lines" in DS games, and that is what has to take place for both of these actions."

I think you just proved my point, but I'm not sure why you did.    I don't like the idea that no matter what you're doing in the game, the action is the same.  I haven't quite put my finger on it, but for some reason, when you're pressing a button, it's more believeable when you're pressing a button and moving a cursor, and maybe it's because it's more abstract, like Jonny wrote in his editorial.  I haven't quite put my finger on it completely (no pun intended), but I'm working on it.

"Have you played any PSP games yet Rick? I asking because I don't know."

Not yet.  I didn't get to E3 last year due to a scheduling conflict, so I haven't had time to really sit down with a unit.  I'm getting one Thursday, so I'll give my impressions by then.  I'm trying to be fair ...  That said, the PSP isn't trying to be innovative.  It's not doing anything other than trying to be a really great game console.  (And before I get bombs in my mailbox, I mean as far as gaming is concerned.)  Yes, it's got great graphics, and a great screen, and tried-and-true gameplay.  It's also got the multimedia stuff as a "buffer" to ensure early adopter purchases, but every single review of the device has said that the games are excellent, and that Sony nailed that aspect of the device.  I'm not hearing that kind of ringing endorsement about the DS.  All I keep hearing (even from people here) is that the great games are coming.  PSP arguably has some great games NOW.  That's hard to argue with.

Maybe I'm just falling further and further out of Nintendo's demographic.  And that makes me sad ...

[Ian Sane]

"I'm setting aside the idea of Sony nixing the Value Pack as their price cut, because I don't think that makes much sense, but... who knows? They just might do that."

Nintendo did that with the Gamecube and it worked quite well.  Originally they included a free game and later the GB Player but it didn't really catch on.  Then they removed the freebie and lowered the price and suddenly sales jumped.  I think people just see a smaller price and get excited.  Plus a lower price with no freebies provides more flexibility.  If I bought a PSP for example I wouldn't want Spiderman 2.  Being able to buy a barebones unit with the option of spending the money I saved on whatever I want is a better deal.

"if its really superior then why every single museum Ive been to uses touching screens instead of puting a mouse?"

That's because it's easier to break a mouse.  When you have something the general public uses you have to take into account stupid jerks and vandals.  It takes no effort to break a mouse (or steal it) while it's REALLY hard to smash a touchscreen.

One thing I like about a keyboard or a mouse or a controller is that it doesn't really feel like I'm using a tool.  Once I'm used to the controls it feels like I'm in direct control like I just have to think.  When I'm playing Mario I don't think to myself "push A to jump" I think "jump".  Because there's that extra layer of abstraction I don't notice what I have to press to do something.  I just do it.  Move your mouse over this sentence.  Are you trying to move your hand or the mouse cursor?  Once you're familiar with a mouse it's like you're controlling the cursor with your mind.

With a stylus you don't get that.  You're always aware that you're moving your hand.  You're not controlling the game or program with your mind.  You're pointing or writing with your hand and a pen.  So it feels like you're doing the same thing all the time.  As Rick said with Metroid Prime Hunters you don't notice your hand so you're aiming, not pointing with a pen.

[PaLaDiN]

There you go... that's exactly where I don't follow your logic.

You can't tell me that you're always aware that you're moving your hand when you write.

[IceCold]

Quote
Originally posted by: mantidor

2) I have a really hard time trying to teach my mom to use the controller of the GC, even for such simple games as Mario Party, my brother has tried to play with her many, many times, but always she walks out, she finds it boring, and frustrating, can you really say that she will have the same reaction when playing Yoshi's touch and go or WarioWare?

How true... My Dad is the same way - he just gets bored/frustrated as soon as he tried to play any game on the Cube, saying that it doesn't feel right or intuitive. However, he has no problem at all with the DS. I think that all of us have played analog so much that we've gotten completely used to it, but actually the touchscreen is definitely more intuitive. I can remember playing Goldeneye on the N64 the first time. It was so weird moving around with the analog stick - I kept automatically moving my left hand back to the control pad.  

I found the controls perfect as soon as I started, and those who didn't will certainly adjust - it really doesn't take long to use the controls without thinking of them. Also, Nintendo won't keep releasing the same types of games - they just won't. Come on..do you really think that they don't know what they're doing THAT much?  

[Ian Sane]

"You can't tell me that you're always aware that you're moving your hand when you write."

I can always tell I'm writing.  With a keyboard I'm not always conscience that I'm pushing buttons.  It's more like letters just appear on the screen as a type.

[RickPowers]

"You can't tell me that you're always aware that you're moving your hand when you write."

Considering the level of carpal tunnel in my wrists, I can state with the utmost certainty that I am always aware that I'm moving my hand (wrist) when I write.  Something I keep trying to remind myself as I'm about to take a couple of proctored, hand-written essays ...

[PaLaDiN]

"I can always tell I'm writing."

All right, that's definitely weird. I have no problems lapsing into a state where my thoughts appear directly on the paper as I write... in fact I can do it with both pen and keyboard but pen gives me more immersion for some reason. It's like my thoughts are more of a flowing analog movement than a digital series of incremental button presses.

[Berto2K]

Bah, I had carpal tunnel surgery on both wrists before I turned 15.  And it was from genetics.  No excuse Rick.

[IceCold]

Adaptation is the name of the game. Whenever we use something new, it takes a while to adjust. The DS is not the same as any game we've played so obviously it will take time to adjust to it. However, once you get the controls, it becomes really effortless.

[Deguello]

Where the hell is this faux-elitism coming from?  "Non-gamers?"  Notice my avatar.  Obviously I am a Wario Ware fan of a big nature.  So am I a non-gamer for enjoying Wario Ware?  Nuts on both Ian and Rick.  Go back to GAF.  They like that elitist bullshit there.

[IceCold]

Your avatar has changed but w/e I agree with you

[Don'tHate742]

It's like you (Ian and Rick) don't like physical movement at all. Moving a stylus across a screen requires more muscles to be used. Pushing buttons require your thumb. You said you couldn't put your finger on what made the pushing of a button and movement of a cursor better, but I have. You guys just don't like physical movement, it "detracts" from your overall experience, and I for one think that's a load of crap.

Good luck having fun in the future when games require entire body movement. ahahahaha

[ruby_onix]

Quote
"I'm setting aside the idea of Sony nixing the Value Pack as their price cut, because I don't think that makes much sense, but... who knows? They just might do that."

Nintendo did that with the Gamecube and it worked quite well. Originally they included a free game and later the GB Player but it didn't really catch on. Then they removed the freebie and lowered the price and suddenly sales jumped. I think people just see a smaller price and get excited. Plus a lower price with no freebies provides more flexibility. If I bought a PSP for example I wouldn't want Spiderman 2. Being able to buy a barebones unit with the option of spending the money I saved on whatever I want is a better deal.

I consider the Value Pack to be a required purchase with the PSP.

Value Pack =
32 MB Memory Stick
Headphones
Soft case

The Memory Stick is required when buying a disc-based system. Sure, the 32MB is the PSP equivalent of the GameCube's MC59, and you're going to need to go out and buy a bigger one to take advantage of the PSP's much-hyped features, but those cost an absurd amount, and you'll need to have something from day-1, otherwise you're going to be stuck with an annoyingly-crippled system that you paid more than $200 for.

The soft case is required, because not only is the PSP not a protected clamshell-design like the GBASP and DS, but the screen is everything where the PSP is concerned. You get one little scratch and your "sexy" little perfect device looks mutilated. To top it off, reports from Japan say that the PSP's plastic screen cover is extremely dainty, and quite vulnerable to scratching, moreso than any version of the GameBoy.

The headphones... eh, I say toss them. But they pay a major part in Sony's plan to push the PSP as an i-Pod competing MP3 player. Also, they're supposed to let you hear how much better it is to be playing games with actual CD audio. If you're just playing games with the tiny onboard speakers, your PSP might as well be cart-based. It just ain't a "handheld revolution" without the headphones.


When Nintendo cut the free game/GBP from the Cube and dropped the price, they gave people more choice. More options. With the Value Pack, I don't see much of a choice. And yeah, a lot of people went for it when the price dropped solely because they saw a number that went below a magic point. I chalk that kind of attitude up to "hype" and don't really respect it much.


BTW, Spiderman 2 UMD is only coming with the first million PSP units, AKA: the launch shipment. Sony has already said that they've got the next batch of PSPs ready and waiting (zomg, teh shortages!), and they don't come with Spiderman 2 on UMD. It's a temporary launch-frenzy bribe that costs Sony about $2 (and, y'know, dilutes some Sony Pictures IP, but that's not Kutaragi's problem). They can't cut it before Christmas and then deliver a $20 price drop because of it.

[KDR_11k]

Ian: How about you adjust to pen input and suspend your whining until then? I'm used to pen input because I use a graphics tablet on my PC and I don't see a problem in using the pen. The only issues are that pens don't have as many buttons as mice (and even those that are present are harder to use) and the way DirectX implements mouse control is incompatible with the tablet mode.

That article sucks. It was nice until the verdict (though maybe a bit harsher on the DS than the PSP) but the verdict completely destroyed it. Hell, both descriptions basically said "nice system but no games available yet", the final verdict should have been nothing but "wait until there's some games out, neither system warrants a purchase yet".

[Deguello]

That article really sucks with the insinuation that the DS has no third party support.  I mean, how many third party DS games does it take?  Or all these G4 people just completely unattached with reality?

[ruby_onix]

Re: controller vs stylus

When I was playing Metroid Prime on the Cube, there were quite a few times when I was so immersed that I became oblivious to the controller, and actually felt as if I had just put my left hand on top of my right arm to steady my aim. One one or two occasions, I accidentally looked down at my controller and forgot which buttons did what.

When you're playing with a stylus you're looking at it constantly. You can't get immersed in that same way while you're looking at your controller.

That said, I think that touchscreen has huge potential which isn't being realized yet. But what do you expect from the launch shipment? IMO, the games that Rick and others in the media are seeing in the pipeline that still aren't "innovative" yet were only just recently born as the sudden knee-jerk reaction to the DS's announcement.

Fortunately, nobody says that every DS game has to be innovative. They don't need to use every feature. Just the ones that improve the experience they want to deliver. Unfortunately, most people (developers included) don't seem to understand that.

So maybe the DS is doomed. Maybe third party support will wither. No more crappy movie licenced games. No more yearly-updated sports games. Oh boo hoo. If that happens, it will surely affect the DS's "success" in terms of marketshare numbers. But I see some great games on the DS's horizon. More than I see for the PSP, and the PSP was announced like six months earlier than the DS was, and has a much more "simple" philosophy.

[Bloodworth]

You see Rick, I simply don't have this awareness of "drawing a line" that you bring up.  It's just a different control mechanism to me, and like others have said, it seems to be extremely easy for non-gamers (people who I've lived with and were never interested in games) to pick up and start playing for hours.  

What I do hate the fast action rubbing that Wario Ware and Feel the Magic have you do, but you know what, I hate having to tap a button as fast as I can too.   That kind of thing has never been fun to me.

I think what it comes down to is that the current line up is still showing its experimental roots.  Developers are just learning how to use touch control, and the first batch of games feels like an introduction for gamers as well.  (Wario Ware is notoriously bad in this respect, since each character's games are like lessons focusing on a specific kind of motion. -- I do like the game Deg. )  Yoshi takes a step away from that, and gives us something new.  Kirby is supposedly another step.  By the time the holidays come around, I think the games will have the depth some of us are missing.

[Aussie Ben PGC]

Quote
Originally posted by: ruby_onixFortunately, nobody says that every DS game has to be innovative. They don't need to use every feature. Just the ones that improve the experience they want to deliver. Unfortunately, most people (developers included) don't seem to understand that.

Really?  From what I've heard, certain publishers are pushing developers to make sure that some titles use ALL the features of the DS for their game.  And as a result, you get stuff shoehorned into an existing game design that shouldn't be there.

But that's just what I've heard.  You know how all that Internet gossip goes.  It's like Chinese Whispers exploded into an infinite amount of people.

[ruby_onix]

Yeah, I should've said publishers in the "most people don't seem to understand that" part. I tend to forget about them, and the seemingly-invisible power they hold over how things get done.

Real creativity and "inspired design" doesn't just show up when your master orders you to produce it. Developers need freedom to create. But what I've heard for years (and tend to forget) is that most of the videogame industry doesn't have that kind of luxury.

Does this mean that the DS is particularly vulnerable to to an ailment that the industry has largely been trying to conceal? One that Yamauchi/Iwata has probably said on more than one occasion will doom them all, and that the DS was designed to alleviate?  

[Avinash_Tyagi]

Wow, the DS has been out for like 4 months and has had great sales, and the really good games are just starting to come out, while the PSP has had pathetic software sales and average hardware sales and G4 is acting like its won...wow, now I understand how Bush won the election.  

[Renny]

We's be ig'nant in America. :¬[

[Bloodworth]

Please don't throw political jabs in here.  We don't want to ruin threads with a flame war if someone takes the bait.

[PJ gamer10]

Those numbers are only based on the Japanese numbers. Even now the PSP is seeling at almost a 2 to 1 ratio. Im not supporting the PSP right now because I do have a DS, but it's obvious that the PSP is really a strong piece of hardware. I think it is a good device for the casual person. For about $350 (because youll need the 1 gig mem. stick) you could get the same deal as an ipod but you will also be getting a movie player and a ps2 quality game player. The PSP does have some pretty good games. Lumines, Mercury, Untold and Wipeout are all pretty interesting. I did have the chance to try out Lumines and Wipeout and both were real fun to play.

What Sony has done with the PSP was expanded the market of handheld users. Maybe the 35 year old traveler doesn't want to play Yoshi or Wario but prefers to play something like Twisted Metal or maybe a sport title that looks just like their home console. With the PSP they could do that as well as listen to music or watch movies that they can transfer from their computer. These are qualities that I think the American audience wants in their handheld machines. It really is an all purpose multi-media machine.

Personally, I'm not going to get a PSP just yet because its a little too expensive for just one game,(Lumines) but it doesn't mean that I won't look into getting it in the future. I have no doubt it'll have great games to play and when that time comes I'll get one.  

[Ian Sane]

"it seems to be extremely easy for non-gamers (people who I've lived with and were never interested in games) to pick up and start playing for hours."

This is brought up a lot and while it certainly suggests that the DS is being well received in a new market it doesn't prove to me anything about the system's quality.  What do I care what your dad or girlfriend who don't normally play games thinks of the DS?  When someone is unfamiliar with games the sheer concept of playing a videogame is fun.  Just look at the casual gamers that Sony introduced to the market.  A lot of us complain about when they buy Madden every year and buy junk like Enter the Matrix.  Well they don't have the same level of interest that we do and don't know or care that there may be better games available.

It's the same way with the DS.  Your mom might not know or care that there are better games than a stylus focused minigame with half an hour of content.  But I KNOW there's better and I, as an experienced gamer, want something more on par with the GBA's best games.  The DS is doing a great job of pleasing this expanded market that Nintendo wants to attract but it's doing a lousy job of releasing games targetted at people who have owned their other systems.  Sony on the other hand has done a near perfect job of securing a lineup that appeals to Playstation owners.  The PSP is clearly for PS1 and PS2 fans.  The DS is not clearly for Nintendo fans.  Some Nintendo fans will like it but it so far looks like it's designed for a different group.

[Avinash_Tyagi]

Quote
Originally posted by: PJ gamer10
Those numbers are only based on the Japanese numbers. Even now the PSP is seeling at almost a 2 to 1 ratio. .

Of course its only Japanese numbers the PSP hasn't been released anywhere else yet, it comes out tonight in the US and we don't have US numbers yet.

Also the software tie-in ratio is less probably than 2 to 1.
 

[Myxtika1 Azn]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Sony on the other hand has done a near perfect job of securing a lineup that appeals to Playstation owners.  The PSP is clearly for PS1 and PS2 fans.  The DS is not clearly for Nintendo fans.  Some Nintendo fans will like it but it so far looks like it's designed for a different group.

Are you freaking serious? How is the DS designed for a 'different' group?  The DS is a hardware with a touch screen that's designed to play games.  That's it. That's all it's designed for.  If you were talking about games then I can see your point, but you're not.  You're basing your statements on the current line-up of games when you and everybody else here knows that more and better games will be coming out soon.  The new Mario, Pokemon, Castlevania games are not for Nintendo fans?  What about the new Mario Kart that will be out this year?

Yeah, so uh, why is the DS not clearly for Nintendo fans?

[Avinash_Tyagi]

I think he's referring to the current crop of games and games like Nintendogs and electroplankton.

Personally I'm glad ninty is branching out, variety is the spice of life.

[Savior]

Yeah, so uh, why is the DS not clearly for Nintendo fans?

elektroplankton/Nintendogs/the Nintendo Educational games...

Iwata has said they want to get non gamers in because the touchscreen makes games simpler...

and to a certain extenct its true. Ive seen many non gamers ask me about the DS and try it out. But making games too simple.. yoshi touch and go for example makes it a tweener

[Myxtika1 Azn]

Avinash: He's talking about the system itself, not the games.

Savior: Pherhaps I'm reading it as "clearly not" and not "not clearly"  Still, the DS itself is designed to execute a program, be it a game or a dictionary.  I don't see why that makes it more of a system for non-gamers than Nintendo fans.

And for the people who say that it's main attraction is for non-gamers and not for Nintendo fans, I ask you this.  Why was the DS so hard to find within weeks of it's US release?  You're not suggesting that non-Nintendo (ie. moms, dads, old Aunt Gretta, people who don't normally play games) fans were running out to buy a DS, are you?  How many units have been sold now? A million? More? Has that many non-Nintendo fans bought a DS because they're non-Nintendo fans? Hell, I'm willing to bet that they  didn't even know what the hell a DS is until somebody who IS a Nintendo fan bought one and SHOWED them what it is.

Not for Nintendo fans? My ass....

[Flames_of_chaos]

Well Ian so why do you want Nintendo to cater to only the Nintendo fans why not everybody? The thing is a company would want to magically expand its share to uncharted territories and succeed or in Nintendo's case the people who thinks games are complex or "casual gamers". Basically Nintendo is trying to do the kill 2 birds with 1 stone approach by basically saying sure you will see Mario,Zelda,Metroid and all of your favorites and on top of that new franchises that would virtually appeal to everyone.

A good example would be Jam with the Band Bros.(or whatever it would be called) It can appeal to gamers who would want to re-create one of their favorite video game scores or to a musician who likes creating music or just anybody who would want to make music seriously or more for fun and have a blast with it.

Another great example is Nintendogs, people like dogs right? And tomagatchi's were extremely popular (with some resurgence currently) right? so you basically can play with your virtual pet everywhere you go and with a engaging experiance like letting you play frisbee or ball with the dog, petting it or saying like good boy or whatever and get feedback like you would get from a normal dog when you praise it or scold it.

Sure Nintendo is also making weird ones like electroplankton or that educational game, Nintendo is just trying new things and as I remember Ian always b*tched that Nintendo isn't trying new things and now your b*tching that Nintendo is trying new things wow make up your mind.

[couchmonkey]

Holy hot topic, Batman!

All I have to say is a lot of people are taking an extremely narrow view of the DS.  Looking to the rest of this year there are many games coming out which will be deeper and better than what we've seen so far.  Yes, I agree that a lot of the software released to this point is not offering a ton of variety or innovation (although I think Yoshi's Touch N Go may be the exception...I'll decide on that after I actually play it).

I'm now going to admit that, yes, there may not be any more to the touch screen than a gimmick.  To that I say, "So what?"  If DS has a better lineup of games than PSP in December but only one or two of them use the touch screen well, does that mean the PSP is better?  Unfortunately, a lot of people are judging DS software on how well the new features are used, and while that is fair to a degree, I don't think it's fair when comparing the DS to other systems.  As far as I'm concerned if Nintendo never used the touch screen again but provided a better game experience than PSP, it would be the superior system.  The touchscreen is just another option.  Unfortunately we're at a very early stage in both systems' lifespans and until a year or so has gone by, I guess people will continue to judge them on hardware rather than the pure quality of the games.

[Ian Sane]

"Well Ian so why do you want Nintendo to cater to only the Nintendo fans why not everybody?"

I don't have a problem with them catering to a wider market.  In fact I've wanted them to do that.  I want them to expand into genres they don't normally make games for and target more demographics than just "family friendly that adults can like too if they're open-minded".  I want more variety.  But I don't feel the DS is providing that.  So far it looks like Nintendo has changed their market instead of widening it.  To me it seems with the DS that non-gamers are the target market.  Now it's early but with Nintendo's constant talking about "attracting new types of gamers" and stuff like that combined with a DS lineup that is nearly entirely quirky short gimmick games and has a lot more quirky titles on the way than traditional ones it's looking like Nintendo isn't focusing on experienced gamers anymore.

I've wanted Nintendo to expand their focus for a long time but I have never wanted them to abandon hardcore gamers in favour of casuals.  That's what they're doing with the DS.  "I wish Nintendo released more RPGs and mature games" is a whole lot different than "I wish Nintendo made gimmick games targeted at non-gamers."  I want them to provide similiar variety to what they did with the NES and SNES.  The lack of options was the problem with the N64 and Gamecube.  Releasing games for non-gamers does NOT fix this problem.  I want improvement not just something different.  

[SgtShiversBen]

Could it be that many Nintendo is widening the audience now in the beginning rather than later on?  It could be possible that they're trying to get all the non-gaming people into playing games so that way when they do release Metroid or something later on, it'll be a huge hit.  I could imagine all the people that wouldn't even know about Four Swords if it was just a dedicated gaming machine that had hardcore gaming action right now.  But if a non gamer, say a soccer mom, had one and saw her kid having a blast playing Four Swords DS, and upon knowing that she had a blast with Yoshi Touch and Go which her son did too, she might think about getting it so they can compete.  It's something I thought would also be a good plan, but it just might be hot air.  Like that damn Answer Now and get a free iPod ad on the top.

[RickPowers]

"Are you freaking serious? How is the DS designed for a 'different' group?"

Because Nintendo SAID SO.  The DS is aimed at the casual gamer.  Period.  Like it, don't like it, you can't argue the fact that Nintendo has designed and marketed the DS thusly.  The SOFTWARE, on the other hand, may or may not be designed and marketed that way.  There will be some games designed to cater to Nintendo's fans, but I get the distinct impression that many of those games will be intentionally spaced out compared to the casual gamer shovelware that we're seeing now like Pokemon Dash and other such titles.

Deg ... I didn't mean that you are a casual gamer because you like Wario Ware.  I'm not saying Wario Ware is a bad game.  I'm just saying that the game is not fundamentally different than any of the other DS games at this point.  The DS has pretty much created a new genre: Drawing Mini-Game.  Simplistic, accessible games, but the problem I'm seeing is that while the graphics change, the gameplay is identical.  Those are perfect to attract new gamers (non-gamers), but that's not to say that others can't enjoy them either.  I just don't see how those games are supposed to entertain ME ... but I think that might be the point: They aren't supposed to entertain ME.

I will say this.  Nintendo's games are getting below average reviews, but the criteria hasn't been adjusted for who the audience is.  I have to wonder how that might end up affecting sales.

(FYI: I got to see my PSP today ... but they still couldn't sell it to me.  I've got Wipeout and Lumines reserved, so I should be able to do a head-to-head here shortly.)

[Deguello]

"I'm just saying that the game is not fundamentally different than any of the other DS games at this point. "

I'd say it is fundamentally different from Super Mario 64 DS and Rayman, how 'bout you?

"The DS has pretty much created a new genre: Drawing Mini-Game."

That's like saying the NES created the D-pad Mini-Game.  Or Wario Ware  made the A button Minigame.

"I will say this. Nintendo's games are getting below average reviews, but the criteria hasn't been adjusted for who the audience is."

I gave up on reviews a long time ago.  When I see crap like Game Informer lowering a score because it won't appeal to the casual player or Atari bribes and MS dictating what can be said in a review, I wonder if reviews are doing the reader any service other than to be a long advertisement or a petty rant.

[RickPowers]

"I'd say it is fundamentally different from Super Mario 64 DS and Rayman, how 'bout you?"

You're going to compare Wario Ware to two different ported games, one of which is an atrociously awful conversion?  OK.    Let me clarify, WW:T is not fundamentally different than the other games originally developed for the DS at this point.  

"That's like saying the NES created the D-pad Mini-Game. Or Wario Ware made the A button Minigame."

That's a bad analogy as far as the NES is concerned, but the Wario Ware part is actually right on the money.  Wario Ware is very recent, and was that weird, quirky, "breath of fresh air" on the GBA.  Now most of the games on the DS are practically identical.  That's not a good sign.  Developers are taking cues from Nintendo, and Nintendo is giving them all the wrong cues.  Wario Ware worked when it was all there was, but I have a terrifying suspicion that it is THE game that Nintendo was thinking of when they came up with this "casual gamer" angle.

As for the NES, it didn't create the D-Pad mini-game ... it redefined precision control in videogames PERIOD.  

[Aussie Ben PGC]

It's at this point that I'll be finnicky and say that the D-Pad was seen on the Donkey Kong Game & Watch in 1982.  The Famicom came out in Japan in 1983.

[Deguello]

"You're going to compare Wario Ware to two different ported games, one of which is an atrociously awful conversion? OK.  Let me clarify, WW:T is not fundamentally different than the other games originally developed for the DS at this point. "

Yes, I am.  You never said the games had to be good.  That's the problem with blanket statements.  As for the clarification, and I really think this is a problem with complaining about the DS's library at this point.  It's like you are pointing at some grass ten feet ahead of my lawnmower telling me I missed a spot.  You know this library problem will get solved in the future, in the very near future even.

"As for the NES, it didn't create the D-Pad mini-game ... it redefined precision control in videogames PERIOD. "

How much more precise can you get when you are actually moving things on the screen yourself?

"Developers are taking cues from Nintendo, and Nintendo is giving them all the wrong cues"

At least they HAVE dveeloper support this time.  You are looking a gift horse in the ass here.  And I think Sony is giving developers far worse cues with this "click and drag" port attitude I see from most games on the PSP.  And judging from future games, I'd say you don't have to worry about every game being like Wario Ware.  I don't see much in the PSP's future of being much more than ports.

By the way, I am seriously gonna motion for the word "gimmicky" to become and auto-edit.  I keep seeing in used with negative connotation when all of it's definitions are positive.

[KnowsNothing]

Quote
By the way, I am seriously gonna motion for the word "gimmicky" to become and auto-edit. I keep seeing in used with negative connotation when all of it's definitions are positive.

Even though I'm pro-ban-gimmick, the word CAN be used in a negative manner (while still being used correctly).  "A device employed to cheat, deceive, or trick..." - Dictionary.com.  It's mostly supposed to be used in a positive manner, though.  Other defintions include "an innovative gadget" and "a significant feature that is obscured, misrepresented, or not readily evident."  Think "innovative feature" is a dandy substitute for gimmick, even though the word technically fits the the DS quite well :thumbsup:  

[Myxtika1 Azn]

Quote
Originally posted by: RickPowers
"Are you freaking serious? How is the DS designed for a 'different' group?"

Because Nintendo SAID SO.  The DS is aimed at the casual gamer.  Period.  Like it, don't like it, you can't argue the fact that Nintendo has designed and marketed the DS thusly.

Is that a fact? Because it sounds like utter BS to me.  Where and when did Nintendo say so? So just because there's a stylus and touch screen that means that it was designed for the casual gamer?  Where's the reasoning behind that? I don't see why Nintendo would be targeting casual gamers who would normally not know what the DS is.  The only way that I can see the casuals, non-gamers, and non-Nintendo fans get interested in the DS would be if they know somebody who is a Nintendo fan that has the DS.  I think word of mouth advertising is how Nintendo is planning on attracting casuals, not by the design of the system.  I'd dare to say that Nintendo should go the route of the PSP if they wanted to attract casuals with just the hardware itself.

[RickPowers]

"Yes, I am. You never said the games had to be good. That's the problem with blanket statements. As for the clarification, and I really think this is a problem with complaining about the DS's library at this point. It's like you are pointing at some grass ten feet ahead of my lawnmower telling me I missed a spot. You know this library problem will get solved in the future, in the very near future even."

I'm sorry if my high standards offend you.  

Seriously, though ... I never bet on the future.  Projects get cancelled, companies shut down.  We can count on getting some good games from Nintendo, I'm sure.  We can also count on crap like Pokemon Dash.  I'm just worried that the DS could become a haven for shovelware for developers to release garbage that looks innovative when it's really the same game with different graphics.  Having developer support is simply NOT GOOD ENOUGH.  The N64 had developer support too, and we got some really god-awful games out of that.  We don't want developers thinking, "Hey, I can make a quick buck by making a mini-game with stylus support" just to fund their other development efforts.  We want developers to stretch, to come up with new ideas, and I just don't see that happening.  I'd rather have fewer quality games than a bunch of crap cluttering up the library like the PS1 had, and it used to be that Nintendo thought the same thing.  Apparently that's changed, judging by the games we're seeing.

I'm not saying that it's 100% bad to have games that are derivitive of other games.  I'm saying that when several games LAUNCH with a system that all contain identical gameplay, when games come out that are derivitive of other games within DAYS of each other and bringing nothing new to the table ... that's a bad omen.

"I don't see much in the PSP's future of being much more than ports."

Wow.  Depending on your definition of the word port, I could say the same thing for the DS.  If port were to mean a game essentially copied directly from the same version on another console, I count one on the DS (Rayman), and two on the PSP (Tiger Woods, Ape Escape).  If your definition is games that are very similar to games on another system, then one could argue that the DS has Mario, Rayman, Wario Ware, Need for Speed, Ridge Racer, etc.  On the PSP, you've got Tiger Woods, Ridge Racer, Tony Hawk, Twisted Metal ... again, there's really little difference.  But I would argue that both systems are seeing games created specifically to take advantage of the hardware rather than being straight ports, and there is no evidence to support saying otherwise.  There will always be ports, but to say that the DS will get more original software than the PSP is naive.

That said, ports aren't BAD, just like gimmicks aren't bad.  Sloppy, rushed ports are bad, and a gimmick instead of gameplay is bad.  I'd rather have a good port that I know is a solid game than an original title that has 15 minutes of gameplay because it's relying on the novelty of a new interface instead of trying to actually do something new with that interface.

A wrestler's "gimmick" is what they used to call the character a wrestler had (or frequently, the character that they were saddled with by the promotion company) when the wrestler was devoid of anything else they could use to get over with the crowd (i.e. wrestling skill, being a good talker, having a chiseled physique).  That's precicely what we're seeing right now ... games that could in no way stand up to scrutiny, and have absolutely no gameplay without the touchscreen.  The trick is, we have to get the developers to stop thinking of the touchscreen as the gameplay, and start thinking of ways to INCORPORATE the touchscreen into the gameplay.  That's not happening yet.

[Bill Aurion]

Another Code, Kirby DS, Meteos, Polarium, Pac Pix...These games got excellent scores with Famitsu and are completley new, original ideas, yet you ignore them...Why is that?  

The DS already has a huge lead in original software and this is just the beginning of developer ideas...  

[RickPowers]

" Another Code, Kirby DS, Meteos, Polarium, Pac Pix...These games got excellent scores with Famitsu and are completley new, original ideas, yet you ignore them...Why is that? "

Because they're not out over here.  Why do you ask obvious questions?  

[Bill Aurion]

Boo!  Three of those games are coming out just next month!

[Ms.Pikmin]

Quote
Originally posted by: RickPowers
" Another Code, Kirby DS, Meteos, Polarium, Pac Pix...These games got excellent scores with Famitsu and are completley new, original ideas, yet you ignore them...Why is that? "

Because they're not out over here.  Why do you ask obvious questions?  

That's an incedibly lazy attitude considering the titles mentioned here are released in Japan.  If you wanted to make any effort at all before you go spouting how the DS games blow, you could at least import some of these and try them out.  Especially when the perspective you're showing is from someone with a leading position on a damn game site.  

[Savior]

Not all of us import games you know

[Bill Aurion]

True, but then it's not fair to say that DS games lack potential when you haven't tried out some fantastic games that haven't yet been localized...Sort of like "Guilty until proven innocent"...

[RickPowers]

"That's an incedibly lazy attitude considering the titles mentioned here are released in Japan. If you wanted to make any effort at all before you go spouting how the DS games blow, you could at least import some of these and try them out. Especially when the perspective you're showing is from someone with a leading position on a damn game site."

So you're saying that I'm LAZY because I don't want to pay exorbitant import fees for games I won't be able to read, in order to solve the problem of the titles that are currently out being short on gameplay and uninspired?

Wow, that's a new one.    

[Savior]

Well, Johny Mainstream doesnt import games. He looks at games he can buy for the DS now at his local EB. Those games right now arent very good.

When a site like G4 for example has their "final verdict" they arent looking at it, in the hardcore fan point of view, they look at it with the general gamer point of view

[Bill Aurion]

Then I'll wait for Rick's impressions after this upcoming month, because I know *I'll* be having a gaming orgasm...

[Mario]

Quote
I just don't see how those games are supposed to entertain ME ... but I think that might be the point: They aren't supposed to entertain ME.

Well how about we rephrase "non-gamer" to "people-that-aren't-Rick" then. That's a market of billions of people, compared to a market of 1 person.

Quote
The DS has pretty much created a new genre: Drawing Mini-Game. Simplistic, accessible games, but the problem I'm seeing is that while the graphics change, the gameplay is identical.

That's terrible logic that you could apply to all videogames released in the past 20 years, sure, what's on the screen changes, but you're still pressing buttons! Pac-Man and Grand Theft Auto are exactly the same! Oh no!

[Ms.Pikmin]

Quote
Originally posted by: RickPowers
So you're saying that I'm LAZY because I don't want to pay exhobitant import fees for games I won't be able to read, in order to solve the problem of the titles that are currently out being short on gameplay and uninspired?

Wow, that's a new one.  :/

I'm saying it is when it's coming from someone in your specific position, Rick.  

Oh, and it's exorbitant.

[Hostile Creation]

How can you say Warioware is a port, Rick?  Even if you think the gameplay is too similar, it's obviously a different game and cannot be considered a port.  You were cramming games onto the DS list to make up for the fact that the PSP obviously has more ports.

[RickPowers]

"I'm saying it is when it's coming from someone in your specific position, Rick."

Look ... I'd argue that no one here is a bigger Nintendo fan than I am.  I've been writing for Nintendo sites for over SEVEN years now.  But I've never been one to toe the company line, and I'm not going to start now.  The quality of the launch titles is a problem, whether you want to believe that or not, and the fact that there are import alternatives is NOT a viable solution, considering the market the DS is aimed at.  When the great games that this lifelong Nintendo fan wants to play are released here, I'll be the first singing their praises.  Until then, I'll point out what I believe to be the flaws.  I've done that the entire time I've been a fan.  I'll praise good choices, and I'll slam failures.  As far as my position, there is nothing in my "job description" that requires me to shell out my own hard-earned money to import games.  If that's a misconception you have, then I'm happy to correct it for you.  We don't get rich on Planet GameCube ... we rarely break even!

"Oh, and it's exorbitant."

Thanks for correcting the error.

" How can you say Warioware is a port, Rick?"

I didn't.  I said it depends on how you define a port.  To my knowledge, SpiderMan 2 is the only straight port on the PSP at this point.  But that isn't stopping people from seeing familiar names and saying "Oh, this and that are just ports".

[Savior]

Spiderman 2 on the PSP doesnt have the New York City GTA like hub like the console does.

its not a port either....


NBA Street/NFL Street/MVP Baseball seem more like ports than Spiderman 2 does

[Deguello]

"SpiderMan 2 is the only straight port on the PSP at this point."

Actually the games called "THUG 2 Remix" and "NFL Street 2 UNLEASHED" are ports.  I don't care that they added "Remix" or "Unleashed" to the title.

See, this sends out a worse vibe than the what you say the DS does.  If these ports or these games that are very similar to PS2 games do better than original titles, who is going to make original titles?  And as development costs rise, the developers, like electricity, take the path of least resistance.  

[Bloodworth]

Oh my, the one thing I don't miss about new generations - all this bickering over which one's better.  I'll just blindly hope that by the time Revolution comes out, Nintendo will learn that you can't launch with a handful of games, you can't lead your launch with a port or a really short title, and you can't let your launch be followed by this pathetic trickle of two or three games a month.  

I mean for me, the majority of games I'm looking forward to right now are for the DS.  I like the system; I like touch control when developers don't make-believe it's an analog stick; but I don't like this huge gap between games or that the only current title with a significant amount of depth is a game I beat eight years ago with a controller that was designed around the game.  

[Noble~Feather]

Heh... this thread's gettin' a bit ugly.

[Mario]

More like interesting

[Pale]

Well Rick should be able to hook us up with some good impressions now...

Hopefully they won't all be glowing... =P

[RickPowers]

Still half an hour before I can pick up my PSP.  I spent some time this morning ripping a couple of Pixar shorts from my Incredibles DVD, and converting them to the PSP format.  Put a couple music files, a few photos, and those videos on the 128MB Memory Stick that I had lying around.  Should be interesting to see if I got it right my first time out.

I'm surprised Nintendo didn't make a Play-Yan announcement today ...

Update: Just got home with my PSP.  It makes a GREAT out of the box impression.  You've all seen the accessory list, I'm sure, but when you open it, there is just so much stuff crammed in that box, it feels like you're really getting your money's worth.  I'd say it arguably makes a better out of the box impression than the iPod.  Some things I never knew about the PSP ... there are shoulder buttons!  Sure, I probably could have figured that out, but what I thought were just chrome accents turned out to be translucent shoulder buttons.  The analog nubbin SLIDES.  I thought you had to press it in, like the eraser stick on a laptop, but it's just a sliding disc.  Plus, it appears that there is an IR transceiver as well, but for what use, I couldn't tell you.

A couple of annoyances ... sound volume is pretty low, probably because the speaker holes are so small.  Headphones are really a must.  I hate the white accessories they included (strap, headphones/remote), they totally clash and are an obvious attempt to capitalize on the iPod white headphone craze.  The remote allows you to use your own headphones, though, so I swapped in my Sony Fontopias instead.  Finally, the drive door doesn't latch on it's own when you close it, so you have to sort of hold it down and flip the switch at the same time, which seems unnecessary.  

The videos and stuff I put on the Memory Stick worked right out of the box, which is pretty impressive, but then again, I read up and prepared my MS ahead of time.  There was about two hours of battery left on the factory charge, so I'm working on draining that right now.  Played a bit of Lumines ... that is an incredibly fun game.  Screenshots really don't do it justice, the game has to be played, or rather experienced.  The visuals and the pulsating music, it's intense and relaxing at the same time, if that's possible.  Wipeout is pretty fast, and the visuals are impressive, but I haven't really had a chance to get into it yet.

Lastly, the screen quality really is amazing.  Again, pictures don't do it justice.  It's hard to keep clean, though ... already I find myself brushing off dust and fingerprints pretty regularly.  

[KnowsNothing]

Quote
The analog nubbin SLIDES.

Oh, so I was right.  The PSP's analog control IS exactly like the DS's, except in a more akward position

[Pale]

Rick, what covers the screen?  Is there rigid glass/plexiglass or is it more like a traditional lcd?

[RickPowers]

"Oh, so I was right. The PSP's analog control IS exactly like the DS's, except in a more akward position"

No, you were completely wrong.  The problem with using the touchscreen for analog control on the DS is that there is no feedback, no resistance.  The analog nubbin on the PSP is spring-loaded, so there is some resistance and tactile feedback.  It's loose, looser than I'd like, but it's certainly serviceable.  As for the positioning, the only complaint I have there is that your finger tends to obscure the left speaker a bit, but considering you should be using headphones, that's not too big a deal.

I'm watching Spiderman 2 on it right now, trying to drain the battery so that I can give it a proper charging.  The video quality of the UMD movie is really outstanding, but I still can't see myself buying movies on the format instead of DVD.

" Rick, what covers the screen? Is there rigid glass/plexiglass or is it more like a traditional lcd?"

It's a clear plastic cover (or maybe it's glass , I'm not sure), so you can't actually touch the LCD.  I don't think I have any dead pixels ... I thought I had one or two, but I think it's just some tiny dust particles trapped under the screen.  I don't really notice them unless I'm looking for them, though, and they're all on the sides, so I'm pretty happy with the build quality at this point.

[Pale]

Heh, sorry for the drilling....    What about the square button nonsense?  Have you noticed it being unresponsive?

[RickPowers]

Not yet, but that could be because I'm unconsciously aware of it.  I know that the problem with the stickiness of the button was due to left over epoxy, but that was solved in the factory.  So far, the button seems to respond well, but I haven't had a chance to really put it through the paces yet.  Once I get it all charged up again (it just died from the factory charge), I'll really give it a workout.

[Ian Sane]

Today on the local news they were talking about the PSP.  Initally I was afraid it was going to be the usual mainstream media routine with all sort of factual errors but it was all accurate.  Plus they actually mentioned that the PSP already has competition from "Nintendo's new portable the DS", the N-Gage, and cell phones with game playing abilities.  Then later on the radio today I heard the DJ say the PSP plays CDs.  *Sigh*

The PSP has a buzz going.  A lot of people who don't follow games know it launches today.  It reminds of the PS2 launch in that sense.  The DS didn't have a buzz going at launch.  The Gamecube didn't.  The PS2 and Xbox did.  I think that's Nintendo's biggest hurdle.  Everyone knows about the PLAYSTATION Portable.  The DS doesn't have that (particularly since it has no GAMEBOY in the title).  People shouldn't have to rely on watching TV at the right time to catch ads or following game news to know about a system.  They should just KNOW.  Sony has always been very good at people just knowing about the Playstation brand.

I glanced at GameRankings and the PSP now has enough reviews that games are showing up in the rankings.  The DS currently has two games with an average of over 80%.  The PSP has FIVE, two of which have over 90%, and the thing just launched.  The DS has been out for several months and doesn't even have one game with over 90%.  Sure reviews aren't fact but looking at that the PSP after being released for only one day has over twice the amount of "good" games the DS has and the PSP games are better.  You can bring up bias all you want but reviews can affect purchases.  If these were launching on the same day I could justify that difference and I can deal with the PSP having a higher scoring game than the entire DS library.  But it's inexcusable for Nintendo to have that sort of head start and still not be on par with the PSP's launch.  The PS2 didn't have a good launch but I imagine at this point it had more than only two games with over 80%.  The Cube had more games with over 80% at this point and it's launch was considered disappointing.

[RickPowers]

I think you've nailed it, Ian.  We _know_ that the DS is a great device, with tremendous potential.  However, if asked, we can't really _prove_ that, because the software isn't there yet, the wireless isn't fully there yet ... it's like the DS was only half launched.  The PSP has come out of the gate strong, the software quality is there to back it up, and everything that the PSP is exciting of is there, ready to be shown off.  All the stuff we're really excited about with the DS doesn't exist yet.  Both systems have additional future potential, but using the launch of each as a snapshot, I have to say that the PSP is coming out of the gate in a stronger position than the DS.

That's all I've been trying to say all this time, and poorly, I suppose.  Nintendo makes devices with a lot of potential, but rarely capitalizes on them (see the unused expansion ports on their home consoles).  I just want to see the DS live up to its potential, that's all, and first and foremost, that means getting some impressive games into the channel!

Something else I've noticed about the PSP ... there are two metal contacts underneath the 5V charging port, contacts that aren't used when you're using the included charger.  People are speculating that a Dock could be a future option, I wonder ...

[Pale]

Admittedly I don't follow the PSP much, hence all the questions here... But whats the story on a possible web browser/email/instant messaging system in it?  Obviously it doesn't have a touch screen so some of these things would be tough.  Regardless, I think that is where the DS can really set itself apart...  Make it a gaming and internet handheld and people would eat it up.  They better annouce it soon though or it won't have a chance.  

[RickPowers]

"But whats the story on a possible web browser/email/instant messaging system in it?"

Funny you mention that.  Sony accidentally posted a firmware update to it's Japanese site a while back (I say accidentally because it apparently fried a few PSP units).  A few industrious individuals managed to download and tear apart the firmware upgrade, and there were some very interesting things in it.  "But most excitingly, the full contents of the update include web browsing software, e-mail, word processing, voice communication, scheduling, a text-to-speech application, a program that'd let you download and organise music with Sony's own SonicStage software, and three mysterious titles which could be new online games."

That's not to say any of those things will ever be available in the future, but there is certainly the possibility.  There is a keyboard addon for the PSP that hangs off of two holes in the bottom of the unit, and folds up over the top of the screen, so those sorts of capabilities are certainly possible.  I don't know how much of this would have to run off of a Memory Stick, how much would have to be a purchased option (which the firmware just makes possible, not actually supplying the software), and how much could actually be included in the firmware itself.  Then again, the DS could do those things too, Nintendo just needs to realize that there is a market for it, and make it happen.

Like I said, both devices have a lot of future potential.  Then again, we've heard that before from both camps.  I've got a PS2 hard drive that has got to be the most disappointing $100 I've ever spent.  

[Savior]

Quote
It reminds of the PS2 launch in that sense

As a Nintendo fan i admire Sony for this. Its partially due to the Midnight sales, and due to the Sony hype machine, but on CNN ive seen them talk about the PSP too many times today. Something i dont recall about the DS or the Gamecube.


Im hoping with the Revolution Nintendo has a Massive Midnight Sales program to get the Hype Machine Rolling along. Nintendo could learn alot from Sony.  

[Pale]

Quote
Originally posted by: RickPowers
Like I said, both devices have a lot of future potential.  Then again, we've heard that before from both camps.  I've got a PS2 hard drive that has got to be the most disappointing $100 I've ever spent.  

So I take it you don't play FF anymore?  Log back on.. I'm on the Titan server!

[Noble~Feather]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
blah blah blah... The PSP has a buzz going.  A lot of people who don't follow games know it launches today.  It reminds of the PS2 launch in that sense.  The DS didn't have a buzz going at launch.  The Gamecube didn't.  The PS2 and Xbox did.  I think that's Nintendo's biggest hurdle.  Everyone knows about the PLAYSTATION Portable.  The DS doesn't have that... blah blah blah...

Uh, sorry dude, but people did know when the DS was out. Otherwise it wouldn't have sold so well on the very first day. I went to go buy a DS in the afternoon on the first day. But I was out of luck. Every single store in my town was sold out of DS's.

That, sir, is "buzz".

[Bloodworth]

Yeah, I remember quite a few stories in the news about the DS.  Unfortunately, the press completely negated Nintendo's more adult-oriented marketing because most of the stories were about parents that couldn't find a DS for their kids.

[huskyla24]

PSP was still available at my Target this evening around 9pm. Also, a buddy of mine at EB games said they didn't sell out. They were actually slower than they thought. He even said some people cancelled there pre-orders cause the price and heard bad things. DS was a sell out when it came out. You could not find it till mid-january. Not sure this will be the case with the PSP.

[KDR_11k]

Rick: The PSP uses a Li-Ion battery, they have no memory effect and in fact it can damage the battery if you let it run completely dry. So charge it often. Not too often, of course, that'll hurt the battery but never store it away at full or empty charge, either. And remember these things discharge 15%/month, if they fall below zero any further discharge damages the capacity of the battery.


EDIT: After reading this (towards the bottom of the page) I'm convinced that we'll see Ian complain about the PSP as well. All in all GSI says the dpad of the PSP isn't so hot for fighting games and considering how much Ian complained about the Cube's dpad...
Why did none of the PSP coverage mention that and you have to look at the review of a niche game to find out? If the DS had such a problem we'd have heard it repeated ten times by now!

[Ian Sane]

"GSI says the dpad of the PSP isn't so hot for fighting games and considering how much Ian complained about the Cube's dpad"

Actually I'm pretty sure I complained about the d-pad early on when the PSP was first shown.  I HATE Sony's method of using a split d-pad.  It's blister city.  I've complained plenty about PSP hardware problems in the past like the stupid square button thing but the game lineup is better and that's what matters.  In terms of just hardware I think the DS is great except for the lack of an analog stick though that's only a problem because of ports designed for the N64 and shouldn't affect DS exclusive titles.

I don't really like the PSP I'm just annoyed that so far Sony has done a better job than Nintendo despite Nintendo's head start and YEARS of portable experience.  Don't think of it as "boy the PSP kicks ass", think of it as "man I can't believe the DS has been so lame so far".

[KDR_11k]

The PSP's d-pad is apparently worse than the PS2's, mostly because it's less responsible.

Also, the PSP's library is larger because these titles can be made cheaply from existing PS2 games. DS games have to go through the fll dev cycle so you'll see less multiplatform games for it and the games take a bit longer to develop (well, not exactly, DS games are easier to make from scratch but the PSP games could have been meant for the PS2 before the PSP SDK came out). Since there's a very low chance that any games meant for the DS get redirected (e.g. moved to the PS2) as there's no comparable system out there there are tons of games yet to come that will come no matter how the next few months play out. if the PSP fails expectations, its games move to the PS2 but if the DS fails then where should those games go? The only options are the circular filing cabinet or the market.

Another point is that while the DS makes a huge step towards better FPS controls for consoles, the PSP is a step backwards as it can't do dual-analog and would have to use a GE-style layout but with less buttons. I think that's a point where the DS has an immediate advantage and might appeal to people who usually play only PC FPSs.

[Mario]

Quote
I don't really like the PSP I'm just annoyed that so far Sony has done a better job than Nintendo despite Nintendo's head start and YEARS of portable experience.

Yeah right.. except the Nintendo DS launch was way more successful than the PSP launch (in Japan, and i'm hearing reports around the internet that the PSP launch wasn't so spectacular numbers wise in the US too), the Nintendo DS has two games worth buying the system for (Super Mario 64 DS, Wario Ware Touched), the PSP has nothing worth $300.

DS isn't lame, you are.

[boggy b]

Quote
Originally posted by: Mario

Quote
I don't really like the PSP I'm just annoyed that so far Sony has done a better job than Nintendo despite Nintendo's head start and YEARS of portable experience.

Yeah right.. except the Nintendo DS launch was way more successful than the PSP launch (in Japan, and i'm hearing reports around the internet that the PSP launch wasn't so spectacular numbers wise in the US too), the Nintendo DS has two games worth buying the system for (Super Mario 64 DS, Wario Ware Touched), the PSP has nothing worth $300.

DS isn't lame, you are.

Super Mario 64 DS worth buying a system for? Yeah, I suppose if you ignore the horrific controls, tiny screen and fact that you've basically played the game in a much much better form 8 years ago.

No games worth buying a PSP for? I'll draw your attention to this little quote then:

Quote
Origninally posted by: Tycho@PA
Lumines belongs with every PSP purchase, but if you read gaming news at all you've seen the nearly universal worship. Today's comic is an exaggeration, of course - anyone who has played Lumines will tell you that it renders you incapable of speech.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/
Add to that WipeOut Pure, Ridge Racers, Untold Legends, THUG2 Remix, Twisted Metal etc. etc. and as a system it's ALREADY got a very very strong launch. (Don't believe me? Compare scores on GameRankings.com.)

[darknight06]

"The PSP's d-pad is apparently worse than the PS2's, mostly because it's less responsible."

I've actually had to TRY doing a dragon punch on this thing as opposed to even the original GBA where it came out without a hitch.  That thing felt stiff as heck and did not respond to diagonals well at all during a couple of VS matches.  Even if they let you use the analog nub for this game, it would still be crap.  That would make the L button nearly inaccessible.

[Mario]

Quote
Super Mario 64 DS worth buying a system for? Yeah, I suppose if you ignore the horrific controls, tiny screen and fact that you've basically played the game in a much much better form 8 years ago.

Yeah, the main game is a bit worse than it was on N64, but i've actually spent more time with the mini games than the main game.

Yes, Lumines is good, and if I had a PSP, i'd buy that first, but it's not worth $300 in my eyes, i'd buy it if it was on PS2 though.

[boggy b]

A 'bit' worse? That's a bit of an understatement. If Mario 64 were only a 'bit' better than 64DS, it would be remembered as the worst Mario game ever made. The minigames are worth paying $150 for? Not likely.

[Artimus]

Mario 64 for the DS is a fantastic game. It's superior to SMB2 and Super Mario Sunshine. The tiny screen doesn't affect gameplay at all. If there had been no Mario 64 originally it would've been a killer ap. It's better than a lot of the PS2 to Gamecube ports we see! (in the porting category)

[The Omen]

Quote
1. It'll kill the ds if this is true. People will stop buying and developers will stop producing.

What would Nintendo care?  If the DS holds the fort until the next GB is released, it will have done its job.  And then the new GB will be backwards compatible with the DS.

I for one have always believed that Nintendo didn't trust Sony were really going to enter the market, and when they finally believed , they had to rush a system out to compete against it.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see a new GB in early 2006

[Savior]

Also, the PSP's library is larger because these titles can be made cheaply from existing PS2 games


DS games can be made cheaply from N64 Games... see Mario, Ridge Racer, Rayman

[Deguello]

Quote
If Mario 64 were only a 'bit' better than 64DS, it would be remembered as the worst Mario game ever made.

Could you please, for the English-proficient, explain exactly what is meant by this?

[Chode2234]

Whoa. wait a minute everyone!!  Step outside of the "Nintendo is great but doomed to fail" mentality and actually look around at what people are saying about the DS.  Sure there is buzz, but just take a look at slashdot's article and the comments about how the US launch is "lukewarm."

http://games.slashdot.org/games/05/03/26/2313238.shtml?tid=212&tid=207

I think a lot of people are in the same boat I am in.  I am interested in both, discouaged by the huge price of the PSP, but see no compelling reason to own both.  Either company will have to show me a reason to get it, and I mean a real reason and not "its 1996 all over again."  The first one to do that will get my money.  I usually bitch about ports, but I would kill for a goldeneye DS release (I wouldn't even want to use the stylus) a couple new maps etc.  They would sell like hotcakes.

But at the end of the day the PSP isn't all its cracked up to be, and people are weary of Sony and the UMD lock in, etc.  

[allcaps]

In my opinion, these two systems are obviously targeted at different segments of the market, but neither of them are going directly at the crowd that once owned (or still owns) GBAs. Whereas the GBA appealed to gamers looking to satisfy an old school, 2D fix, these systems are going in entirely different directions.

The DS seems aimed at people looking for something different from their games, and perhaps with them, those who typically haven't paid attention to games. The stylus, for these people, makes games more accessible.

The PSP is employing Sony's strategy from the original Playstation of making portable gaming cool for the twenty something crowd, and the Playstation 2's strategy (that never really panned out) of media convergence.

As it stands now, I like the PSP's features and library a lot more. I got one launch day and have been enjoying Lumines and Wipeout Pure since. The price they are asking is pretty high, but with its media capabilities and terrific launch titles (one of the best launches I've seen in terms of across the board quality) I really think its worth it.

Hopefully the DS won't be just a hold over until a new Game Boy is released to battle it out with the PSP. I think this would really alienate the average consumer (a la the 32X/ Saturn fiasco). I'd really like to see Nintendo innovate and make the DS something special.  

[KDR_11k]

Deg: I think he wanted to say he thinks 64DS is a game on par with E.T. or Dangerous Vaults (and if you still don't get it...).

How does SM64DS stack up if you never had an N64?

[Bloodworth]

Quote
I for one have always believed that Nintendo didn't trust Sony were really going to enter the market, and when they finally believed , they had to rush a system out to compete against it.

I do think that the DS was rushed out to beat Sony to market, but Nintendo was already working on DS before Sony first announced PSP two years ago.  If it weren't for the PSP, I think Nintendo may have waited until this summer or fall, and perhaps Mario 64 DS would have never been more than an E3 demo.

[clevelandst124]

I never had a n64 and I think Mario 64 is wonderful.  If you are like me, I think it is reason enough to own the ds.  Again, not playing the original I would rate it at 9.7.  It shows that the ds can handle powerful graphics.  Not PSP like but anybody that puts gba graphics on a ds is just lazy.  The mini games are worth the $30 purchase alone as they have infinite replay value and I've enjoyed them as much as the main game.  

But I also have no problem with d-pad control.  I never really understood analog control.  You know what I do in racing games?  I click the analog in the turns.  The same thing I would do with a d-pad.  That's why I thought the control was pretty spot on with Mario 64 ds.  I now have 147 stars and I'm working on 150 without ever using the touchscreen.  That is also why I'm still going to pick up Rayman.  I've never played it and I'm fine with the d-pad so I'm not worried about the controls.  

I do agree that the launch was rushed and would have been better served after now even.  But putting Mario 64 on the ds was a good move.  

[Artimus]

Quote
Originally posted by: allcaps
Whereas the GBA appealed to gamers looking to satisfy an old school, 2D fix, these systems are going in entirely different directions.

90% of GBA owners are under the age of 16 and play them because their parents bought them one and buy them games.

[Deguello]

Quote
90% of GBA owners are under the age of 16 and play them because their parents bought them one and buy them games.

Got a source for this?  Or should I just take your word for it?  I am willing to entertain that a majority of Gameboy Owners are children, but 90% seems a bit much.

[Mario]

Quote
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see a new GB in early 2006

That would be a terrible move, and it won't happen. Who's ever going to buy a Nintendo handheld again when they know it will only have a 1-2 year lifespan and the next one will be even better?  

[KnowsNothing]

That would create an endless loop of wait-and-see and no one would buy anything EVER.  Nintendo are doomed.

Oh yeah, that 90% thinger guess is WAY off.  Plenty of older people bought a GBA, even though it may have been because there was no other choice.  Even Nintendo bashers have a GBA

[Savior]

The GBA was released in  Mid 2001, Id say 5 years means Mid 2006 for the Game Boy Evolution.

The next Gameboy is coming. The question is when, it also depends on the Revolution.

If the Revolution is released November 2006 to go against the PS3, then it means either Mid 2006, or Mid 2007 for the GBE.  

[Don'tHate742]

Quote
Originally posted by: Mario

Quote
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see a new GB in early 2006

That would be a terrible move, and it won't happen. Who's ever going to buy a Nintendo handheld again when they know it will only have a 1-2 year lifespan and the next one will be even better?

It's not that bad of a move, a little earlier yes, but the fundamentals are correct.

Nintendo has 2 main objectives, which are:

-- Killing the PSP

-- Killing the PS3


Nintendo could single-handedly do that, but timing is everything. He said he wouldn't be surprised to see a new GB in 2006. That should mean it being revealed at that year's E3. The problem with launching a new handheld shortly after another is the smuthering affect caused by the new one. Nintendo can save the DS if the new GB is revealed, but how? It has to prove to us that it provides a new way to play, that (this is important) can't be mocked or replicated by later handhelds or handhelds seen today. Nintendo should be now, busting their ass to make the touch-screen, two-screen handheld an interactive and fun handheld.

Once the DS "blossoms" into the handheld to own (which seems likely at the end of the year), with a great annoucement of more games, features (PDA for the love of God!), and interenet updates to come (soon that is), they could have a firm grasp on marketshare as well as a big enough loyal userbase. This userbase plays a role in keeping the DS alive. They bought it for it's interactivity, and they will continue to buy games for that sole purpose.

E3 2006 comes around. Nintendo shows the new GB that is set to launch september, along with complete compatibilty with cube games. The combatibility for multi-player games will be limited, unless of course, Nintendo planned this all along (not likely, but you never know). This news along with the REV being backwards compatible, allows for a spread of the same software over three consoles, meaning a obvious boost in sales for software respectively.

The REV acts like a GBE player, and everyone knows how popular the GBA player was. Now, instead of packing the player at a later date, it's automatically there. The GBE has potential to smuther the DS, but like I said, if popular enough, the DS can live on due to two things: It holds the GBA line BWC, which wasn't a last minute adaptation, and it is unique, yet amazingly fun (has to be proven).

The GBE should launch with about 6-7 new titles, but it would be allowed not to launch with many titles though (unlike the DS), considering it has a huge GameCube line-up from the start. This allows let's Nintendo to focus almost all it's game developement for the REV. The only problem is supporting two launches almost side-by-side. If they can do it though, new adopters of the GBE (and there will be many) will get frustrated that they can't play multi-player games completely, then the REV launches with that feature in tow, a seamless transition.

Many third-parties, already familiar with the GameCube will jump on board, seeing as how it's the new GameBoy and it's games can be sold for 3 different systems. The REV will gain sales due to it's new functionality (has to be good) as well as for playing GBE games at home. Let's not forget the possibility of it playing HD-DVD's either.

The DS might get lost in the surge of consumer awareness for the new systems, but as long as there's something for those consumers, it'll survive. The DS summer will benchmark how fully the DS has matured. If it proves that even with a GBE annoucement it can still gain revenue, I think Nintendo could not only successfully killed off the PSP, but keep the "third pillar" promise. Something would have to get DS sales going though, during that vast summer period. PDA functionality, with chat-on-the-go capabilities with normal computers sounds like a nice move. Give it a surge of online titles, such as SSB Online, Pokemon Online, and an RTS, and it'll sell.

For the first time EVER, a handheld can actually generate console sales, forming some kinda allaince between the two. Not to mention, the possibility of using the GBE as a controller.

After that hectic year, things will pan out smoothly for all Nintendo hardware. Games released for the GBE will sell better due to the REV fans that buy the games. The REV third-party list will hopefully grow fuller, with a wide-range of developers due to the secret "concept," and the outstanding REV sell through (due to GBE compatibility). The DS can be the friendly developer's system, for those that don't want to spend the vast amounts of money needed for the two other hardwares. With the PSP out of the way (hopefully), the DS and GBE are the only handhelds that developers would develope for. Most may go with the GBE's very broad user-base, but the DS will become the "portable computer" handheld, letting developers easily transfer (not port) game play mechanics to the DS. An RTS, ORPG, twitchy FPS, compelling 2-D games, puzzle games, 3-D/2-D nostalgia classics, innovative new-twists (JSRF) would thrive on the DS. More functionality can be given to the PDA software, allowing it to grow as time passes. A web browser comes to mind, as well as VOIP (voice/video chat rather than net2phone).

Wow I said alot.....sorry if this sounds like throw up (as in information digested and brought up again), but I can't help it, it seems too plausible.  

[Mario]

Quote
The GBA was released in Mid 2001, Id say 5 years means Mid 2006 for the Game Boy Evolution.

The next Gameboy is coming. The question is when, it also depends on the Revolution.

If the Revolution is released November 2006 to go against the PS3, then it means either Mid 2006, or Mid 2007 for the GBE.

The next Gameboy just came out, it's called the Nintendo DS.

[Mario]

Quote
Nintendo has 2 main objectives, which are:

-- Killing the PSP

-- Killing the PS3

I think their main objective is making a profit. Say DS is selling... 500,000 a month, while GBA is selling 200,000 a month. A new Gameboy comes out, sells 1 million first month, then every other months sells 500,000 average. Now the DS is the one only selling 200,000 a month. They're selling the same amount of systems as before, but they are faced with the costs of developing and launching and supporting a new system. Wouldn't it make more sense for them to wait until the DS starts selling 200,000 a month, and THEN release it?

[Savior]

Quote
The next Gameboy just came out, it's called the Nintendo DS.

Not according to Iwata, Not According to Reggie, Not according  Howard Lincoln. To them the DS is a "Third Pillar"

and you know what, if the DS was the next Gameboy, it would have been called the Gameboy DS.  Its not.

Quote
The unprecedented announcement reveals a product that will exist completely independently of GameCube and GameBoy Advance - a "third pillar" as Iwata recently described it

[Mario]

That's what they are trying to tell you, but do they really think that? I know for sure at least 95% of people in the real world consider it the next Gameboy.

[allcaps]

Quote
Originally posted by: Artimus

Quote
Originally posted by: allcaps
Whereas the GBA appealed to gamers looking to satisfy an old school, 2D fix, these systems are going in entirely different directions.

90% of GBA owners are under the age of 16 and play them because their parents bought them one and buy them games.

LOL, not too sure if that's accurate, but I was 18 when I got my GBA and 19 when I traded it in for my SP. It has a ton of great games you can't get anywhere else (Castlevanias, FF Tactics, Fire Emblem).  

[Savior]

Maybe, maybe not Mario. We will know by next year

[Urkel]

The reason Nintendo refers to the DS as the "third pillar" and not the next Gameboy is:

1. To not cut into GBA sales.

2. To keep the Gameboy brand name from being tarnished in the event that the DS failed. Think about it. If a "Gameboy" fails, that's pretty much it for Nintendo in portables. But if the DS had failed, Nintendo could simply release the "real" Gameboy successor without having the stigma of it being the successor to a failed product.


Nintendo will continue to refer to it as a third pillar since the GBA continues to sell so well. I doubt we'll see the next "Gameboy" until 2007 at the earliest. 2008, more likely.

And it will play DS games. And it will have a touch screen. And a second screen. And a microphone...

[Artimus]

Ok, 90% was a bit much but anyone thinking the GBA is popularly because of some nostalgic 2D hardcore gamer audience is deluding themselves.

[Savior]

Quote
I doubt we'll see the next "Gameboy" until 2007 at the earliest. 2008, more likely

Sure, if the PSP is an incredible succes and cuts into Nintendos share, we might see it next year. Its already been reported that its in development

[Mario]

Of course it's in development, what else would the hardware developing team be doing? GC development started right after N64 was released, Revolution development started right after GC was released.

[Don'tHate742]

I just thought of something really freaking cool for the next GB. Of course, I assume it's going to play GC games and use that media.

Anyways, let's say an awesome multi-player online game comes out. Since both REV and the next GB will have WiFi, I think it would be sweet if you could play online across systems. I could play with my friend while I'm flying on a jet, but while she's sitting at home. How freaking cool would that be?!

Mario -- I don't know why your so against this. It seems logical that the next GB is coming. Either next year or the year after. It makes sense. As we speak, I think they are perfecting it; making sure it's functional as it is perdy, unlike the PSP.

[nemo_83]

ign makes it seem like the PSP's launch has not gone well

[pudu]

Quote
Originally posted by: nemo_83
ign makes it seem like the PSP's launch has not gone well

For the newest take by IGN on the new handheld battle check out my post in the DS section regarding a recent article comparing the two.  I've including a quick summary and the link.  Here's my post link: DS topic link

[Pale]

Well I finally actually got my hands on a PSP.  It is an incredibly nifty machine and I do think its possible that we could see a DS SP that rips off sony's analog nub.  For what it is (an incredibly shallow analog stick) it does the job nicely.  I can conceivably see myself owning a PSP if two conditions occur; 1. 100 bucks or more comes off the price. 2. A killer app (for me) comes out for it.

For me none of the new games are worth it at all.  I liken it to the PS2.  It took a long time for a game that suits my tastes to come out for that system that warranted the purchase.  For the PSP, like the PS2,  it will most likely be a square title.

[darknight06]

"It is an incredibly nifty machine and I do think its possible that we could see a DS SP that rips off sony's analog nub"

Nintendo's not doing that.  It wouldn't benefit anything that's already out and all they'd be doing is alienating their userbase.  You'd see it in the next GB line handheld before the DS.  The only games that would benefit from it would be platformers and SM64DS did not control bad with the touchscreen, so I'm not seeing the point.  

[vudu]

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Originally posted by: RickPowers
Just got home with my PSP.  It makes a GREAT out of the box impression.

Hey Rick, if you have the time, I'd love to hear any updated impressions you have about the PSP.  

[TheYoungerPlumber]

Rick's schedule actually encourages him to USE THE MP3 FEATURE. So I can tell you he loves his PSP and is getting his money out of the thing.

[The Omen]

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But until then, the Nintendo DS is nothing more than a decent idea being used as a stop-gap to limit the sales of the Sony PSP until the next Game Boy is ready. But after people get Sony's slick machine in their hands, I question just how well the tactic will work."

I've thought this all along. It was a good, strategic business move to hold serve until the next GB.  The only problem is, they may have to offer some sort of incentive to people who bought the DS to switch a mere year after its release.  Perhaps making it backwards compatible and giving a sizable discount to those who trade up from the DS.