Topic: Virtual Console Mondays: August 13, 2007

[UltimatePartyBear]

Reviews shouldn't be used to figure out whether a game is "better" than some other game (especially if the reviews use a three point scale).

[UncleBob]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Don't say The Beatles suck if you can't even name their albums.

Wait... does this mean I can't say N*Sync or New Kids on the Block suck if I can't name their albums?  Does this mean people who can't name Hitler's book can't say he sucked?

[Kairon]

Can we have Zach Miller, savior of NWR VC reviews, retroactively review Kid Icarus?

[vudu]

Quote
Originally posted by: Pale
Actually you should read all of our articles and start to see which writer falls in line with your own opinions the most.

But what happens if I happen to agree with--say, for the sake of inflating your ego--you the most?  You didn't review any of the games in this week's VC lineup; how do I know if any are worth picking up?  Did you review Mario Strikers?  How do I know if it's any good?

That's one of the good things about IGN.  There's only 3 people who review Nintendo games on a regular basis.  It's pretty easy to find out who you like and how your tastes compare to theirs.

[nickmitch]

Quote
Originally posted by: UncleBob

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Don't say The Beatles suck if you can't even name their albums.

Wait... does this mean I can't say N*Sync or New Kids on the Block suck if I can't name their albums?  Does this mean people who can't name Hitler's book can't say he sucked?

How about, if you were alive during the height of a band's popularity, then not being able to name a band's album is a testament to how much they suck. See, you wouldn't know the name of an album because you'd never listen to one due to suckiness. But with older groups, you'd have to go out and give them a listen before you can say they suck.

I knew you were kidding; I'm just bored.

[UncleBob]

I still disagree.

The Beatles are overplayed about as much as Elvis that you can hear their music enough and be able to make personal judgment calls on your opinion of the quality of the music without having to have memorized (or ever heard) the names of any of their albums.

[WindyMan]

Quote
Originally posted by: shammack
So here are just a few of the games that, according to NWR, are better than Metroid: Bravoman, China Warrior, Bloody Wolf, Kid Chameleon, Milon's Secret Castle, Elevator Action, Wario's Woods, Romance of the Three Kingdoms IV, Donkey Kong Country, The Legend of Kage, Galaga AND Galaga 90, Gain Ground, Comix Zone, Balloon Fight, and Ice Climber (not to mention lots of others, but those are some of the most egregious).

Give me a break.  If you're going to give it a not recommended, there are better reasons (like the fact that it's been rereleased so many times already) than the fact that you start at the first room when you die.  If anybody takes this seriously and spends their Wii points on one of these other games instead of Metroid, they're missing out on a great game.

We're not saying that all of those games are better than Metroid.  We're simply recommending them more than Metroid.  Though for its time, Metroid was a new, genre-defining experience, nowadays there are so many better experiences that are pretty much the same thing, namely Super Metroid which will be coming next week.  Basically, if you've played any of the recent handheld Castlevania games, you'll wonder why Metroid is so basic in comparison.  At least, that's the way I see it.

I want to point out to everyone who keeps referring to our recommendations as "reviews" that our recommendations are not reviews.  They are what we call them: Recommendations.  We're not telling you that Metroid is a bad game.  We're simply telling you that based what's currently on Virtual Console (and in this case, what will be coming to Virtual Console), we don't think the game is worth it, in this day and age.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: WindyMan

Quote
Originally posted by: shammack
So here are just a few of the games that, according to NWR, are better than Metroid: Bravoman, China Warrior, Bloody Wolf, Kid Chameleon, Milon's Secret Castle, Elevator Action, Wario's Woods, Romance of the Three Kingdoms IV, Donkey Kong Country, The Legend of Kage, Galaga AND Galaga 90, Gain Ground, Comix Zone, Balloon Fight, and Ice Climber (not to mention lots of others, but those are some of the most egregious).

Give me a break.  If you're going to give it a not recommended, there are better reasons (like the fact that it's been rereleased so many times already) than the fact that you start at the first room when you die.  If anybody takes this seriously and spends their Wii points on one of these other games instead of Metroid, they're missing out on a great game.

We're not saying that all of those games are better than Metroid.  We're simply recommending them more than Metroid.  Though for its time, Metroid was a new, genre-defining experience, nowadays there are so many better experiences that are pretty much the same thing, namely Super Metroid which will be coming next week.  Basically, if you've played any of the recent handheld Castlevania games, you'll wonder why Metroid is so basic in comparison.  At least, that's the way I see it.

I want to point out to everyone who keeps referring to our recommendations as "reviews" that our recommendations are not reviews.  They are what we call them: Recommendations.  We're not telling you that Metroid is a bad game.  We're simply telling you that based what's currently on Virtual Console (and in this case, what will be coming to Virtual Console), we don't think the game is worth it, in this day and age.

Yeah for WindyMan, and his cool recommendations.

[Karl Castaneda #2]

It should be noted that Zach is a gigantic Metroid fan, so I think he's just as qualified to speak on the subject as anyone else.

[Ian Sane]

"Does this mean people who can't name Hitler's book can't say he sucked?"

Hitler didn't suck because of his book.

"The Beatles are overplayed about as much as Elvis that you can hear their music enough and be able to make personal judgment calls on your opinion of the quality of the music without having to have memorized (or ever heard) the names of any of their albums."

I was just using it as an example of ignorance.  The Beatles are such a huge band that most people with any knowledge of modern music could probably name most of or all of their albums or at least recognize the names as Beatles albums if they heard them.  In other words if you don't have at least a really basic knowledge of argueably the most popular, successful and critically acclaimed band of all time then what the hell do you know about music and why should anyone care what you think?  Same thing with videogames.  Don't know Metroid then you don't know anything because anyone who makes the slightest effort to familiarize themselves with games outside of what's current would stumble upon it's existence almost by accident.  If you care to know anything some of the really big stuff is just going fall in your lap.  And if you don't care to know anything then why should anyone care about your opinion?

Maybe I should make my example less specific.  Can you name ten Beatles songs and if required hum how they go?  If so then you probably know enough to have an informed opinion.  I'm more opposed to the dumbsh!t teenager who says they likes punk but cites Avril Lavenge as an example of the genre and doens't know who The Clash is.  The "I'm a huge videogame nut but 2D games suck and Nintendo's k!ddy!!" types who don't know what Metroid is, let alone what it plays like.  

[Halbred]

My man Windy is exactly right. Maybe if Metroid were the only NES game available on the VC, yeah, it'd get a higher recommendation. But the fact is there are tons of NES games on there, the vast majority of which are less frustrating and more enjoyable than Metroid. Now, I don't expect everyone to agree with me that Metroid is a terrible game. Indeed, I thought that my opinion was one of the minority. Metroid is one of Nintendo's Big Three franchises (well, four if you include Smash Bros.)--how can I poo-poo all over the original game?

Well, for exact same reason I poo-poo'd all over the original NES Castlevania: it's horrible by comparison to its far better sequels and even contemporary NES games.

And Pale, dude, if you have to start from the beginning every time you die, that's not a "persistent world." That sucks. :-P

[Kairon]

Who in their right mind would RECOMMENED Kid Icarus to everyone they met?

[Pale]

I would and do.  I'm NEVER bending on this one.  =P  Even though it follows me everywhere!

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Pale
I would and do.  I'm NEVER bending on this one.  =P  Even though it follows me everywhere!

Pale, the ultimate goober? Hmmm.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

I will refrain from once again yelling about how different people write different reviews.  That said, I firmly believe the first 30 minutes of Metroid are the worst, because you don't have energy tanks to curb the life grind-fest. A significant design flaw. Metroid is much harder if you don't attempt it in one sitting, too.  But I would personally recommend it over Kid Icarus any day.


Milon's Secret Castle.  

[UncleBob]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane

Hitler didn't suck because of his book.

Well, the Beatles don't suck (or don't not suck) because of the names of their albums.

Quote
I was just using it as an example of ignorance.  The Beatles are such a huge band that most people with any knowledge of modern music could probably name most of or all of their albums or at least recognize the names as Beatles albums if they heard them.  In other words if you don't have at least a really basic knowledge of argueably the most popular, successful and critically acclaimed band of all time then what the hell do you know about music and why should anyone care what you think?  Same thing with videogames.  Don't know Metroid then you don't know anything because anyone who makes the slightest effort to familiarize themselves with games outside of what's current would stumble upon it's existence almost by accident.  If you care to know anything some of the really big stuff is just going fall in your lap.  And if you don't care to know anything then why should anyone care about your opinion?

I understand your point, but I don't think Metroid is the game to focus this argument on.  Honestly, I agree with this recommendations in that the original has *not* stood the test of time well.  And I still have my Intellivision hooked up (now to my 37" flat screen TV).  If I recall correctly, the original Metroid didn't even sell that well (at least not in Japan) in comparison to many of the other games on the NES (or FDS, as is the case in Japan).  Is Metroid the worst NES game ever?  Not by far.  But I don't think I'd rank it in the top 20 by any means.  To say that gamers don't know games if thy don't know Metroid is a pretty bold statement.

Quote
Maybe I should make my example less specific.  Can you name ten Beatles songs and if required hum how they go?  If so then you probably know enough to have an informed opinion.  I'm more opposed to the dumbsh!t teenager who says they likes punk but cites Avril Lavenge as an example of the genre and doens't know who The Clash is.  The "I'm a huge videogame nut but 2D games suck and Nintendo's k!ddy!!" types who don't know what Metroid is, let alone what it plays like.

You know, some people don't like 2D games.  Some people don't like 3D games.  Some people don't like sports games.  Their opinion is their opinion, even if it's not right.  And if some dumb teenager can associate themselves more with the music of Avril than some band 95% of the population has never even heard of, does that mean their opinion means less?  Because when it comes to sales (the only thing these companies look at), it doesn't.

[Khushrenada]

Quote
Originally posted by: TheYoungerPlumber
Milon's Secret Castle.

How can you recommend it when you can't even pronounce it?


I agree with the "not recommended" rating. I've recently discovered Metroid and played all the Metroid games in the past 2 years except for Hunters and Metroid 2. Metroid NES is, I think, almost impossible to get into. Especially if you have played any other Metroid game before it.

I tried to play it a few times but my interest and enthusiasm dropped faster than a (insert clever simile here) and I just can't get into even though I am just mad for metroid these days. Feel free to use that qoute (I'm just mad for Metroid) as we wait for the release of Prime 3.

Of course, it may not have helped that I was introduced to the NES version after completing Zero Mission and unlocking it.

Frankly, this recommendation is better than IGN's where they gave the game an 8. Too much.

[UncleBob]

Khush - Get Metroid II and play it.  It's good.

[Khushrenada]

I hope to soon. I keep checking ebay once in awhile. I want to buy a copy that's close to mint to add to my video game collection.

[Caliban]

Quote
Originally posted by: Khushrenada

Quote
Originally posted by: TheYoungerPlumber
Milon's Secret Castle.

How can you recommend it when you can't even pronounce it?

I think you are mistaken, it's Karl that never pronounces it properly.

[KDR_11k]

I was expecting Metroid to get something better than that because it's high profile and so on but IMO the Not Recommended rating is clearly deserved, it just sucks. If someone wants to subject himself to the pain of Metroid I he should buy Zero Mission, finish it and unlock M1 as a bonus game that way, it even saves the last password you got so you only have to hit continue.

[UltimatePartyBear]

Quote
Originally posted by: WindyMan
I want to point out to everyone who keeps referring to our recommendations as "reviews" that our recommendations are not reviews.  They are what we call them: Recommendations.

What is a review but a verbose recommendation?  Just because you don't put a number on the end of it doesn't mean it's not a review.  It seems like there's something suggested by the word "review" that you don't want associated with the VC blurbs, but I can't figure out what that might be.  Do you just not want us to take your opinions too seriously?

[Ian Sane]

To avoid conflicting opinions maybe you guys should recommend the game in a "review crew" kind of way.  You use the same three recommendations but have a couple people give their own.  It's like how Ebert and that other guy each give a thumbs up.

[UncleBob]

I agree with Ian on this one - While some of the smaller games don't apply here, you can't tell me only one staffer here has played the original Metroid.  You could still stick with one final recommendation, but giving a paragraph or two to 2-3 staffers would not be overkill.

[Halbred]

You know, when I wrote that Silent Debuggers recommendation, I was confused by the "how is this not a review" question, too. But as I played it (and then Metroid), I realized that it's not fair on the game to review it. You can't review Metroid in 2007. It would get a 2 out of 10. Or less.

"Reviewing" an old game using modern standards would simply not work. You can only talk about your own experience playing said old game, and then tell people whether you would recommend they play it or not. There are precious few older games that stand the test of time and remain awesome in the modern age. Super Metroid's one of them, Super Mario Bros. 3 is another, Super Mario RPG is one I keep praying will show up on the VC, but Metroid definately is not. It remains firmly entrenched in 1987.