Topic: Miyamoto soundbites on IGN

[Ian Sane]

Click here.

Shiggy's doing the "simple games" routine again.  And like Iwata he has something outrageous thrown in so that everyone thinks he's crazy.

"A lot of the games out there are just too long. Of course, there are games, such as Halo or Grand Theft Auto, that are big and expansive. But if you're not interested in spending that time with them, you're not going to play."

He's suggesting that there's not a lot to interest gamers nowadays and then he references two games that significantly outsold every game Nintendo made on the Cube.  These games sold huge.  That means there's demand for them.  That means gamers want to play games like this.  So where is all this simple games stuff coming from?

I'm concerned that Nintendo is going to focus too much on non-gamers.  A lot of people say that I shouldn't worry and that Nintendo is going to target both non-gamers and long time gamers but here there is no suggestion of that.  He's suggesting "unique products" over "epic games".  I want "epic games".  I don't want Halo and GTA specifically but I want games with their kind of length, depth, and complexity.  He's really giving the image that the Rev's going to be the Electroplankton console.

Reggie does a good job of selling the Rev to me but anytime anyone from NCL opens their mouth I immediately get the impression that the Rev won't interest me at all.  I get a feeling that NCL and NOA are on completely different pages.

How the hell can he use the two most successful games of this generation as justification for gamers not being interested in today's games?  That makes no sense at all.

[KnowsNothing]

YOU make no sense at all.  

He's saying that there are people out there that don't like big expansive games out there, not that NOBODY wants them.  If they don't want them, they won't buy them.  The group of people that DON'T play GTA, or Halo, or games at all (non-gamers) is like a gajillion times larger than the people who do.  Nintendo wants to get those people to buy their games.  Makes sense to me.

We've heard this complaint from you a hundred times.  While Nintendo is focusing alot more on nongamers than they used to, when it comes to games they show no signs of giving up on their core fanbase.  The new SMB?  Fire Emblem?  ZELDA?  It makes sense for them to go for nongamers, too.  That's like 1,000,000,000,000,000 potential sales.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I found this article interesting

*Currently accepting applications for a Japanese girlfriend*

[Mario]

I stopped playing Grand Theft Auto San Andreas because it was TOO FREAKING HUGE. Another thing, I think GTA is a great example of a pick up and play game Shigeru is talking about, I mean you just run around and kill things and drive places, i've seen heaps of "non-gamers" getting into it, then getting hooked because of all the stuff you can do.

[jasonditz]

Typical IGN spin.

In the original interview nothing Shiggy said would give the impression that he believes people aren't interested in epic-scale games. He said he personally misses the sort of game you can just pick up and play without having to invest a lot of time in them. He says he hopes the Revolution will bring that sort of game back, but nowhere does he suggest Nintendo's not going to make epic games anymore.

And you know, I agree with him. Some of my fondest early video game memories were of games that you could just pop in and play for 10-15 minutes. When I hear him talking about things like that the game that comes immediately to mind is Lock N' Chase for the Atari 2600. I loved that game, and beyond arcade compilations and the excessively multiplayer-heavy Pacman Vs., its a sort of game you just don't see anymore.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still the sort of person that loves to invest 80+ hours in a game, but at the same time, it'd be nice to have a game like that where if you've got a few minutes before dinner or something you can just pop it in and play around for awhile, and if dinner gets ready before you're done you can turn it off without saving and not feel like it was a total waste.

[nickmitch]

Quote
When you have a Revolution, you're not going to have the same experience as you would with the other home consoles.

Intriguing, yet scary and a bit nerve racking.

I like epic games too. Nintendo needs to go both ways to attarct more audiences. I like a good, long game that I can really get in to but it's also nice to have ick up and play games. But when I think about it I realize that Nintendo does both with Zelda (epic) and Wario Ware (pu&p).

[Pittbboi]

I have to agree with Ian Sane about how little sense this makes...coming from Nintendo.

On one hand, there's nothing wrong with missing the simpler days of gaming, where more games were pick up and play. However, on the other hand, Nintendo has no right to complain, because the majority of games they released for the 'Cube were of the exact same pick-up-and-play variety that they claim to "miss."

If those are the types of games they desire, make them--which is what Nintendo has been doing. But don't try to claim that it's a market-wide complaint that games are getting two long and epic, because they wouldn't be if there wasn't such a high demand for them. Shiggy proved this point when he referenced two games of this type that really did sell a crap load more than anything on the 'Cube.

There is a market for shorter, pick-up-and-play games, and Nintendo as a supplier to it (as well as many other developers). But there is also a market for long, more in-depth games, as well. Leave that market be.  

[jasonditz]

?

Looking at the majority of the games nintendo released for the Cube I see very little that fits the "pick up and play" mentality. Maybe Animal Crossing... but games like Wind Waker, Mario Sunshine, both Metroids, Pikmin... those are games you need to dedicate time to.  

[Pittbboi]

There are the Mario Party games, Mario sports games, Mario Kart, Luigi's Mansion, SSB: Melee, Wario Ware, Animal Crossing, and others.

Even if the amount of pick-up-and-play games are equal to the amount of epic games they make, the above list at the very least shows that they make too many pick-up-and-play games to make sense complaining about a lack of them.

[jasonditz]

I'd forgotten about Wario Ware. The other stuff more falls into the category "get several people over to your house and play on a Friday night". Luigi's Mansion is again, one of those games where you can't really just play it for 15 minutes. I mean you can, but you can play GTA3 for 15 minutes too... its still something you need to dedicate time to to really do anything with.

I'm not talking about "play for 15 minutes and continue later", and I'm pretty sure Miyamoto wasn't either.  

[Arbok]

I have a feeling he is talking more akin to "Yoshi Touch & Go", as jasonditz seems to be trying to imply. Personally, I hope to god not. Was that game a fun diversion? Yes. Did it feel like it should have been a mini-game shoot off of a regular game? Yes. Honestly, I just can't merit spending a full game's purchase, especially for a console game, on something that won't last me all that long.

Others seem to enjoy them though, so win some, lose some I suppose.

[Pittbboi]

Quote
Originally posted by: jasonditz
I'd forgotten about Wario Ware. The other stuff more falls into the category "get several people over to your house and play on a Friday night". Luigi's Mansion is again, one of those games where you can't really just play it for 15 minutes. I mean you can, but you can play GTA3 for 15 minutes too... its still something you need to dedicate time to to really do anything with.

I'm not talking about "play for 15 minutes and continue later", and I'm pretty sure Miyamoto wasn't either.

Well then, if you're talking about "play 'and beat' in 15 minutes" games then I'll have to agree more with Ian Sane than I originally did.

Can those games be fun? Yes. Is it a shame that they're not dominating the market? No. I honestly don't think Miyamoto was thinking of those sorts of games.

Yes, most games nowadays (even the ones I mentioned by Nintendo), can be "play for 15 minutes then continue later". But I think there are multiple levels of this concept. A game like Final Fantasy, for instance, can be played for 15 minutes and continued later, mostly because in 15 minutes you can't experience the game the way it's meant to be experienced. However, a game like Donkey Konga can be played in 15 minutes and continued later, not to get the full experience of the game, but to add to the full experience. You'd keep playing DK not to fully get the purpose of the game, but to get new songs/levels/etc. The latter is the type of game I think Miyamoto was referring to. And those are the types of games Nintendo are experts at making.

And, even so, this is veering away from my original point. These are the types of games Nintendo makes; and, not just Nintendo, LOADS of other developers make short pick-up-and-play games. There's a market for them. Just like there's a market for epics. Just because Nintendo wants to see more of these games, doesn't mean the general public wants to. I personally think that Miyamoto’s comment was just more of Nintendo convincing itself that what it wants to do is exactly what the general public wants, too.

[Ian Sane]

"Some of my fondest early video game memories were of games that you could just pop in and play for 10-15 minutes. When I hear him talking about things like that the game that comes immediately to mind is Lock N' Chase for the Atari 2600. I loved that game, and beyond arcade compilations and the excessively multiplayer-heavy Pacman Vs., its a sort of game you just don't see anymore."

I like pick up and play games too but I don't want a console that specifies in such titles.  Plus you have to think of the dollar value.  Midway Arcade Treasures costs like $20 and it comes with over 20 games.  That's less than a dollar a game.  Nintendo on the DS is selling pick up and play games like Yoshi Touch & Go for $30.  They're expecting us to pay more money for one game than we do for 20.  That's why stuff that plays like Pac-Man isn't made anymore.  Since more "epic" games have become available no one justifiably wants to pay the same money for something where you've seen the whole game in a couple of hours.  So unless they can make these new simple games at a low enough price where they can compete with the extremely cheap to make arcade comps it just isn't going to happen.

And no one knows how to make pick up and play games anymore.  They're supposed to be hard.  The challenge is what justifies the short length and encourages replay.  Too many games today are quite easy so that they appeal to the mass market.  You can't have a simple game that can be beaten in one try.  You either have to make games where you keep playing until you die or make games that take only half an hour to beat but take months and maybe even years of practice to build up the needed skill.  My brothers can consistently beat Contra III within half an hour.  That's a pick up and play game.  It's meant to be completed in one try.  My brothers didn't beat Contra III the first time they tried it.  It took them a long time to get good enough.  Today's games are too easy.  If the game is designed to be completed in half an hour odds are it will be completed within the first half hour of play and high scores, collecting useless junk, getting perfect rankings, using multiple characters, etc doesn't add enough to the game to make up for the short length.  So if Nintendo wants to make simple games they better be the kinds of games that kick your ass in the first minute you ever play.  Otherwise those games are going to be overpriced and too short.

[IceCold]

"I'm concerned that Nintendo is going to focus too much on non-gamers"

That's the 2,344th time you've said the exact same sentence, and I still laugh every time I see it. Nintendo won't do that; they won't just alienate their fanbase like that. And "simple" games have the ability to be extremely deep - they're just easier to play. Isn't that an improvement?

[KDR_11k]

Let's compare the following:

Resident Evil 4. Epic. Save points half an hour apart so if you got less time than that you're out of luck.

Crimsonland. Coffee break game. I don't last longer than maybe 8 minutes in Survival. Still, damn fun.

Sure, paying 60 Euros for a coffee break game is a ripoff but hell these things are cheap to produce, released en masse for free on the internet and when they cost money it's maybe 10-20 US dollars. The indy scene produces lots of games like that. Since the Rev seems to be aimed at indy devs you can expect to see a whole shitload (since you're going to ask, it's a metric shitload, which is 1/1007th of an imperial shitload) of short and cheap games from the independents.

Hell, I've got a folder called "mini" in my games directory, it contains about 60 small games I can play when I want to waste five minutes or so. Almost all of them are freeware games.

[stevey]

""A lot of the games out there are just too long. Of course, there are games, such as Halo or Grand Theft Auto, that are big and expansive. But if you're not interested in spending that time with them, you're not going to play."

He's suggesting that there's not a lot to interest gamers nowadays and then he references two games that significantly outsold every game Nintendo made on the Cube. These games sold huge. That means there's demand for them. That means gamers want to play games like this. So where is all this simple games stuff coming from?"

no they just buy GTA for the hooker and halo for shooting thing.  

[UncleBob]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
He's suggesting that there's not a lot to interest gamers nowadays and then he references two games that significantly outsold every game Nintendo made on the Cube.  These games sold huge.

For what it's worth, there were way more people who didn't buy GTA or HALO than people who did.

The trick is to figure out what (if anything) would get these people to buy a game.  You know, the way the NES did...  Or Pokémon did...  Or, likely Nintendogs will...

[mantidor]

Exactly. Nintendo wants the NES times back, and by simple games Miyamoto refers to the reaction of people who first played Mario, and I dont consider Mario to be simple at all, specially back in those days. I know it sounds paradoxical (is that a word?) but a simple game like Nintendogs, can be very, very complex if you look closely. I think thats what Nintendo is aiming for, just because a game is very accessible doesnt mean it cant be epic or deep.

Not to mention the next-gen versions of Metroid and Zelda are confirmed, do you think that after Twilight Princess, which is looking to be the most epic game this generation, they are going to dumb down the series in some way when the make the revolution installment? I cant understand why some of you are worried that there wont be epic games from Nintendo in the next gen.

[PaLaDiN]

"A lot of people say that I shouldn't worry and that Nintendo is going to target both non-gamers and long time gamers but here there is no suggestion of that."

Come on now Ian. Are they supposed to add "and we're still targeting hardcore gamers" to every interview they give? Why would they restate what they've been doing since the NES? You'd think after 4 generations you would have gotten the message.

Nintendo is making a big deal out of appealing to non-gamers because they don't currently appeal to non-gamers. It's a change. Appealing to hardcore gamers is not a change. Nintendo is not going to blow a horn that rusty. It's a given by now.

[IceCold]

The first Mario on the NES sold 40 million copies (granted it was bundled for a while with the hardware). Super Mario Bros. 3 sold 30 million copies as a standalone game. No other games will ever, ever have such deep market penetration. It's just a given.

[Stimutacs Addict]

^- seriously, if nintendo stops producing epic titles, they would be shooting their wad in our faces, which would undoubtably result in negative ramifications for Ninty. Guess what? a 10 yr old could tell you that. Nintendo knows that would be market suicide if they lose their devoted fans. heres what i take from this comment:

1. Rev is really going to change the way we control (and perhaps view) games, and Nintendo believes developers will have opportunites to create quick, challenging, and engaging titles due to the new user interface

2. Miyamoto's new IP is one of these titles designed for the masses. Mario and Metroid will serve as Ian's timekillers at launch (if SSB doesn't satisfy him)

Nintendo is really trying to capture female gamers. Nintendogs, Electroplankton (that'll catch some stoners, too), hell.. Pikmin are cute, too.  THis isn't a bad move, as I doubt Sony could release NInentodo's death grip on the female and child demographic , but could piss some of us off. I'm excited to see how this  pans out

speculation time :  
--- Nintendo wants the rev to be your gaming hub, just as sony and microsoft seek to control your entertainment appliances. You download classic games to your rev, then save them on the DS for portable play.

---sez Ian: Nintendo wouldn't allow that: it would cut into their GBA classic sales. .....
i think he might be right.. but imagine how tight that'd be.

and does everyone else agree that Crystal Chronicles will be played between DS and rev. players? It would save Square development time and improve sales like madz... if they make it good enough to warrant two purchases. Or hell, include two quests in each version  and make one platform-exclusive exclusive

finally , I think force feedback/haptics contained within the controller (specifically the analog stick) would be friggin dope. imagine trying to run uphill and actually feeling the analog stick supply a reactionary force proportional to the slope of the hill/difficulty of the terrain.

or I'd like an analog stick that can be depressed into the controller (akin to the ps2 and xbox clicks).. but make it analog. I really dont know why that sounds cool, but damn i want one  

[Galford]

All I can say Ian is I feel your pain.  

Sometimes I think Nintendo is nuking the US and European markets to revive it's Japanese marketshare.

[Bill Aurion]

Yeah, Ninty is really going to stop making "deep" games...You know, ignore Metroid Prime 3 and Super Smash Brothers 3, etc...Those are completely niche games you know and cater to the non-gamer...Oh wait, no they don't...Leave it to Ian to completely jump the gun... =\

Nintendo will make games that cater to EVERY gamer and EVERY non-gamer, as Reggie, Iwata, and every other Ninty official has been saying for the past year...It amuses me that people are "scared" by these comments when the standard fare "epic" games have already been proven to be in the works...It's the "pick up and play" games (which could easily be applied to a game like Smash Brothers in the first place) that we haven't seen yet...

[Pittbboi]

I really think that people are forgetting that pick up and play games make up a nice portion of the games Nintendo creates. Why bitch about there being a lack of games in a niche market you dominate?

[Robotor]

Theres this design concept called transperent depth.  In which a game is simple enough for anyone to play it, but allows more experienced players to experience the game on a different level.  Smash Bros. uses this, Mario Tennis uses this, GTA uses this, River City Ransom uses this, and a lot more use it.  Epic games are harder to design with this concept, but its possible, as GTA does it very well.

I really think that this is what Nintendo is doing, Yoshi's Touch and go's diffulcty changes depending on how well you do.  The simplicity and elagancy in many upcoming DS games further supports it.

That or they will just do both....