Topic: Jim Merrick, once again, with some new bites of info

[KnowsNothing]

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It's not the nicest thing to do but from a business standpoint it makes sense.

I find it hard to believe that if Nintendo were to do this you wouldn't go on a few long rants about it.  

[BlackNMild2k1]

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Originally posted by: iMoron
A British (1) pound is about $1.50... Aple is getting extra over there, fo which they have been critisice before! Also an (1) Euro is about $1.30... I haven't check the curent exchange rates but those nombers are close.

The thing about:

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Possible format: diagonal burned dvd's. Some time ago i saw a article (very long ago, so don't have a link sorry) about some mod-guys making a diagonal cd-burner and what gives, if you burn the holes diagonal you can fit way more on the disk (space beteen the lines get thinner), then they tried it with a DVD-burner and they could fit 40 gb of data on a normal dvd.
So we have a near impossible to copy medium that can fit tons of data and uses existing technology but applied differently...sounds very Nintendo now does it (except the tons of data), fits the giving hints too...

I think you are confuce with that, at least I think you are mixing things up a bit... You are probably confuse with  the new Perpendicular Hard Drives which store the data on vertical (standig uprigt, perpendicular) position, instead of vertical (flat, horizontal) position... Look at it like if you had a bunch of pensils... you can get many more pensils verticaly than horizontaly (asuming you can't stack them one on top of an other)...

Then again, I have heard of some tecnologies, like holographic recording... so maybe that posible format you mention does exist... if you remember where you got the info from don't forget to link to it! That said... I don't think they will use that... but who knows!

I think he was talking about
VMD (Versatile Multilayer Disc)

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Versatile Multilayer Disc is similar to DVD9 in that it is a multilayer technology. It is an advanced optical disc that enables mobile storage to be realized at unprecedented price-to-performance levels; far beyond the realm of existing DVD technology, it quadruples DVD storage capacity with no disruption or cost penalty to consumers, content providers or manufacturers.

"NME's multilayer disc offers the possibility to achieve capacities equivalent to 'next generation' blue laser based discs such as Blu-ray - i.e. up to 50GB - using the red laser technology employed by today's DVDs. The discs can also be played on standard DVD-R drives with only minor modifications."

We can offer the consumer and media industry a 40GB VMD disc that performs and features all aspects of DVD9 for a very similar price to a 8.5GB DVD9."

"With only a small software change to existing drives, which our partners have already agreed to incorporate, and full backward compatibility, it makes the decision to adopt very easy for all parties. In my opinion it is a 'no brainer' and a 'slam dunk' proposition."

This is using existing technology (including your current DVD drives/players) in a different way.  But as much as I would be relieved to hear Nintendo using this I would be even more shocked that they were actually using it.

[Don'tHate742]

You never know with Nintendo now-a-days. They're so damn unpredictable.

This is the most likely of candidates, or at least the thinking behind it will most likely come into play. It makes sense that it has to be a DVD because of the ability to play DVDs and GC disks on the REV (I'm sure the attachement to play DVD's only unlocks the player and not completely modifies it). I doubt Nintendo would make the same "mistake" they made this gen and go with a plain old DVD, which was used this gen, so it is safe to assume that they'll at least go DVD9, or with a propriety DVD.

Either way, the capacity will match the 360. Nintendo isn't the type to over-supply, so a propriety DVD that has about the same capacity as a DVD9 disk is the most plausible solution.

On that note, why are we still talking about this?

[cubist]

LOL @ The Toaster...and to think people were actually taking Ian seriously...or were they?

I think Nintendo needs to learn that they can't keep going forward with their N64-like approach to the type of medium used to play this game.  The cartridge is the reason why Nintendo lost the marketshare and that's the bottom line.  The GCN disc apparently is still too small for most game developers to cram all of their ideas into it.  THQ was the most recent victim of this with DOR2.  I also didn't like the fact that I had to get up and change my discs every 5 seconds for sports games like EA's Tiger Woods 2003.  

Even the next generation is already experiencing third-party developer complaints with the XBOX 360.  I think it was a recent interview that J. Allard had with IGN that caused him to come out and be a bit critical about how third-parties aren't using their tools efficiently.  I'll post the link later.  As games become more complex, I'm sure Nintendo can come up with a medium these days that'll hold enough (and then some) for developers to run wild and be more comfortable.

[NotSoStu]

Okay, people, I'll go over this again. Next-gen games are basically on the same level as recent PC games. I have never seen a game that requires much more than 4.3GB (DVD5 = 4.3GB). Let me run through a little list.

FEAR is 4.6GB. And it's barely compressed.
Black and White 2 is only 3GB.
Battlefield 2 is 1.9GB.
Half-Life 2 is 3.5GB.

These are some of the largest and best looking games out, and you know what? There's no real need yet to make the move to DVD9, nevermind Blu-Ray.

[zakkiel]

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The cartridge is the reason why Nintendo lost the marketshare and that's the bottom line.

That's a... new explanation. I haven't heard that anyone had trouble fitting games onto the cartridges, and they had no loading times. Can you elaborate?

[Bill Aurion]

The main (and only problem) was that they were more expensive than CDs...

[bustin98]

Here's one game specifically unable to fit on a cart - Final Fantasy 7. It's the reason Square jumped ship. Also, carts do not offer the same quality of FMV as CD's. Looking at Resident Evil 2 for the N64, the FMV is highly compressed and loaded with artifacts (even though the original has some artifacting, too).

But Nintendo prefers in game cinematics as to FMV, which cuts down on space requirements and lessens the feeling of being pulled from the game experience by the difference in on-screen quality.

Nintendo choose carts over cd because of load times. They failed to realize that an annoyance of load times is compensated by the features presented by the cd format.

One question that can be asked of this coming generation -  is framerate issues an annoyance that is compensated by the features of high resolution? Looking at it that way, I believe frame rate issues will cause game playing issues, while loading screens only removed the immersion factor.

[Bill Aurion]

Here's one game specifically unable to fit on a cart - Final Fantasy 7. It's the reason Square jumped ship.

Wrong, wrong, and WRONG...People are misinformed on this...The reason Square left was because there was a LOT of tension between their head and Yamauchi...Square did a LOT of software bloating to make it seem like FFVII was much too big for cartridges, because Square was behind the Sony philosophy that "more discs so the game is better"...I mean come on, Square used WAV files for the music!  WAV FILES!

[cubist]

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Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
Here's one game specifically unable to fit on a cart - Final Fantasy 7. It's the reason Square jumped ship.

Wrong, wrong, and WRONG...People are misinformed on this...The reason Square left was because there was a LOT of tension between their head and Yamauchi...Square did a LOT of software bloating to make it seem like FFVII was much too big for cartridges, because Square was behind the Sony philosophy that "more discs so the game is better"...I mean come on, Square used WAV files for the music!  WAV FILES!

I disagree.  When I was working retail about a decade ago before Final Fantasy VII was released, the N64 was outselling the PSX from month to month.  I knew it because I monitored the sales of all consoles by looking at a nationwide database of a major videogame retailer.  I was (and still is) a loyal Nintendo fan and I thought the N64 would take over just like the SNES.  However, when Final Fantasy VII hit the scene with its gorgeous CG FMV, the PSX would go on to outsell the N64.  The only way the N64 was ever able to outsell a PSX on a given week was when there was a shortage of PSX's.  

More examples for you Bill.  Sports games for the PSX were better because of the added storage space.  Once NFL Gameday was able to upgrade to running polygons, it became a much better sports game along with all of the commentary.  The ability to point out player names and having more to say than just "BOOM", "What a tackle", "Number 8 throws the ball", OR "Touchdown" without having to worry about having enough space to fit in-game speech.  It was so bad that we were surprised at how much voice work Starfox 64.  As a matter of fact, Nintendo fans (including myself) were bragging about how much voice acting was in Starfox 64...that was really pathetic.  Before someone points out that in-game speech was never a Nintendo necessity, then why did they try to put it in the game instead of the "bleeps" and "boops" of the original SNES title.  Hell, they allowed it for Banjo Kazooie and even the GCN's Animal Crossing.  WTF!

The cartridge medium also cost Nintendo all of the third-party support it enjoyed from the SNES era because it was too expensive compared to CDs.  Major companies like Konami, Capcom, Enix, and EA found the PSX a much better investment with the larger installed base, cheaper medium (CD's), and more storage space to load their FMV crap.

I did hear that the Squaresoft and Nintendo executives had a falling out.  I'm not sure, but I think I may still have a hardcopy of Next Generation magazine that shows that the falling out happened after Squaresoft moved their Final Fantasy series over to Sony's Playstation because Square's developers touted that they had ordered Silicon Graphics tools to create their beautiful CG sequences and pre-rendered backgrounds.  Let me get back to you on that hardcopy so I can cite the references.

Yet, regardless if this falling out happened before or after Squaresoft jumped ship, you can't ignore the fact that Nintendo messed up with their decision to go with the cartridges...in retrospect.  Despite all of the groundbreaking games that were available for the N64 (some of the greatest of all time), the lower storage capacity of the cartridge was the sole reason why Nintendo is where it is today.  

Getting back to topic:  Nintendo should learn from the XBOX 360 developers who are complaining about the lack of space.  Nintendo has heard it with their past two consoles.  I hope they don't repeat their mistakes...as history has shown that they have.

Oh yeah...and the music on WAV files Bill?:  I remember that Nintendo wanted to demonstrate that MIDI tracks were able to give the games dynamic music.  Nintendo was bragging how RARE was demonstrating how music would change underwater or when enemies were encountered in Banjo Kazooie.  My only problem was that while that was great for the 5 seconds that I noticed it, there wasn't enough space to put out a decent MIDI game soundtrack with plenty of variation.  Turok, anyone?



 

[Bill Aurion]

Whoa, why'd you bring up so much stuff?  The only point I was trying to make was that Square didn't leave Ninty because of cartridges...It was much more than that...(and it was not only WAV files but bitmaps too in FFVII...)

And I still say space was never a problem (this extra space on CDs being used for useless FMV)...It was cost...

[cubist]

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Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
Whoa, why'd you bring up so much stuff?  The only point I was trying to make was that Square didn't leave Ninty because of cartridges...It was much more than that...(and it was not only WAV files but bitmaps too in FFVII...)

And I still say space was never a problem (this extra space on CDs being used for useless FMV)...It was cost...

LOL...sorry about the novel...I just had nothing better to do.  

[Kairon]

Well, cubist, I'm of the opinion that if I had to choose between Mario 64 being possible, or going with CDs and a more mass market presence, I would choose Mario 64 everytime. It may have been a damaging business move, but it was the right thing to do in order to deliver the best games you could make to players.

*shrug* Heck, Zelda on the 64 wouldn't have been possible if they'd gone with CDs at that juncture. I personally feel that that is simply too high a price to pay just to wear a couple of moneyhats, especially to the man who embodies Nintendo, Shigeru Miyamoto, who is most likely still making a non-extravagant Japanese employee's salary.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: bustin98
HOne question that can be asked of this coming generation -  is framerate issues an annoyance that is compensated by the features of high resolution? Looking at it that way, I believe frame rate issues will cause game playing issues, while loading screens only removed the immersion factor.

I think you can't say that monied next-gen games will have frame rate issues. I doubt a company (with the sole exception of Rare) will ever gun for HD graphics at the expense of framerate. They can always just tone down the graphical load they need to output if they ever find themselves in frame rate city.

But again, that's the thing. To pursue these next-gen graphics with HD support and the PS3's 120 FPS - okay, so they won't use that as a standard, lol, more like 60 FPS standard - they'll need to pump money into their graphics budget. It will certainly drive up development costs to some extent, and in truth, it really starts to look like diminishing returns if this is the main thrust of what makes the next generation better than the first.

The question, I believe, is actually not about what consumers will think, its what developers will think. Will most developers see the Rev as a viable and appealing alternative to next-gen game progression, or will they all decide that the benefits of higher framerates and resolutions outweighs the higher development costs, competitiveness and monetary risk that come with them.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[zakkiel]

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I was (and still is) a loyal Nintendo fan and I thought the N64 would take over just like the SNES. However, when Final Fantasy VII hit the scene with its gorgeous CG FMV, the PSX would go on to outsell the N64.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc, much?

[Ian Sane]

"And I still say space was never a problem (this extra space on CDs being used for useless FMV)...It was cost..."

It was more like both.  Technically you could make a cartridge big enough to hold the same amount of space as a CD but it would cost a fortune.  CDs had more storage for a lower price so it was both.

Plus FMV being "useless" is an opinion, not fact.  If I wanted to make a game on the N64 with FMV or CD quality audio I was sh!t out of luck.  You can say "well FMV is useless" but not everyone feels that way and a third party should be given an incredible amount of flexibility from the console maker.  Really it was Nintendo's "we decide what's best for everyone" dictator attitude that cost them the third parties.  Cartridges were the catalyst.  It was the point where Nintendo's inflexibility went from being an acceptable annoyance to a major restriction and extra expense.

But anyone who doesn't think that cartridges totally screwed over the N64 is a delusional fanboy.  It was one the dumbest decisions ever made by a successful console maker.  Atari's self-destruction is about the only thing I would put above it.

[ShyGuy]

Sega's whole 32x/SegaCD/Saturn bumbling was a bigger mistake IMO, but that was a whole series of things rather than just one glaring example

[Ian Sane]

Yeah I'll give you that.  The 32X was released like, what, six months before the Saturn launched?  Who thought that was a good idea?  Plus Sega is no longer making consoles and Nintendo still is so yeah Sega screwed up more.

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: Ian SaneBut anyone who doesn't think that cartridges totally screwed over the N64 is a delusional fanboy.  It was one the dumbest decisions ever made by a successful console maker.  Atari's self-destruction is about the only thing I would put above it.

I think everyone can agree that cartridges were the major reason that Nintendo lost market leadership in the 32/64 bit era.

But this is a very complex "mistake" in that cartridges are the sole reason that Miyamoto was able to create games like Mario 64 and ZeldaoT. He's even stated that these masterpieces of gaming, which are still used today as yardsticks for everything from game control to comera control to content, would be impossible without the fast loading times of the cartridge.

Very few people dispute the fact that cartridges drove away third parties, but the much more relevant question is whether Nintendo would've been able to make Nintendo quality games at all if they had moved to a 2X (2 speed) CD drive. If the N64 had been CD based, then Miyamoto would never have been able to make Mario 64, or Zelda: OoT. Nintendo games would be vastly different, and who knows whether they'd even be as acclaimed as they are today.

The key dilemma of this issue is NOT whether Nintendo blundered when they chose carts over CDs, but whether Nintendo even had a choice in the matter with Miyamoto's drive towards the best games he could possibly make: Nintendo games. Even now Nintendo goes with small 1.5 GB discs touted as providing load times that are fast enough for Miyamoto's tastes, despite the competition having 4.7 GB discs.

Is Miyamoto to blame for the N64's downfall? Or...more interestingly, when Nintendo decided to make Mario 64, which defined 3D gaming, was at least 5 years ahead of all competition, and is touted as one of the best games ever made... when Nintendo made this pinnacle of Nintendo gaming...did they sacrifice the market to do so?

And if so, was it worth it?

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Ian Sane]

You know what probably would have worked?  If Nintendo had made a the N64 have both a cartridge slot AND a CD drive.  It would have been kind of like a Genesis/Sega CD combo only as one console.  I don't have enough technical knowledge to know if that would even have been feasible but it would have allowed both Nintendo and third parties to make the games they wanted to make.

"And if so, was it worth it?"

I think it depends on whether or not Nintendo can increase market share with a console for a change.  If they continually lose market share each gen eventually they would have to drop out as a console maker.  We don't know yet if the N64 was the beginning of the end unless we reach the end with Nintendo never again having a really strong position in the market.  That's how we can prove it wasn't worth it.  Logically I don't see how we can ever prove it DID.

[Kairon]

Ian, stop looking at the marketshare numbers and consider the question as an actual Nintendo fan. I know you're not really a Nintendo fan, you're just someone whose found themself not being served by Sony or Microsoft and now that Sega's gone Nintendo is the only alternative left.

But this question, I believe, should be at the core of what a Nintendo Fan soul-searches for.

Is the very reason that Nintendo is so big, Shigeru Miyamoto, the very reason why Nintendo will never be number one again?
Is everything we love about Nintendo games everything that has the potential to hold us back financially in the future?
Do we trust and allow this man, Miyamoto, to continue experimenting and making the best games he can?
Do we trust him to have so much artistic influence in this company that is in a very competitive business?
Mario 64 and Zelda 64, among the best games of all time; are having these games in existence more important than having marketshare?
Is letting Miyamoto take risks to create the next Mario 64 worth not having marketshare?
Is letting Nintendo be Nintendo worth not having marketshare?

Conditional answers just don't work here, it has to be a straight yes or no. This is because these questions are asking Nintendo fans how they beleive the company should approach the future, and you cannot place conditions on a course of action because you cannot know the end result. You can only evaluate the subject, review past performances, and deliver a verdict.

As for it being answered definitively, only Miyamoto knows that. Only Miyamoto knows all the factors involved in the final equation and only he can know just how much Nintendo lost for how much Nintendo achieved.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Jensen]

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Originally posted by: Kairon


But this is a very complex "mistake" in that cartridges are the sole reason that Miyamoto was able to create games like Mario 64 and ZeldaoT. He's even stated that these masterpieces of gaming, which are still used today as yardsticks for everything from game control to comera control to content, would be impossible without the fast loading times of the cartridge.

Very few people dispute the fact that cartridges drove away third parties, but the much more relevant question is whether Nintendo would've been able to make Nintendo quality games at all if they had moved to a 2X (2 speed) CD drive. If the N64 had been CD based, then Miyamoto would never have been able to make Mario 64, or Zelda: OoT. Nintendo games would be vastly different, and who knows whether they'd even be as acclaimed as they are today.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Mario 64 is 8 megabytes.  The whole game could be copied to system ram in 27 seconds (with a 2x drive)... and only parts of it need to be loaded for each level.

Zelda : OoT is  bigger at 32 megabytes.  110 seconds.  If you streamed textures as you got to them, there would be no problem.

The games would be almost identical on CD-ROM.

 

[Kairon]

Jensen, size is not the issue. Read times from extremely slow 2X CD drives are.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[mantidor]

Besides, how is that PS games load so much then? and it is not the fmvs. Even small games took way longer than just 110 seconds of loading time if you sum them up. I think its not as simple as just "load the whole game in ram and play it".

[darknight06]

WRONG.  PS1 only had 2MB of RAM.  Super Mario 64 was 8MB.  If it can't hack FF6 and Crono Trigger without load time what makes you think it'll handle Mario 64?  And that's not even taking into account the things that would have to be cut in order for it to even work to begin with.

And another thing, the PS1 cannot stream.  If it could stream then load times would be similar to the Dreamcast Marvel VS. games where characters and backgrounds were loaded up as you selected them not once the CD could stop spinning for music.  Besides, I like my Mario without load time.  Having to wait 25 seconds just to start a stage would've made me throw a fit back then.