Topic: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*

[Chozo Ghost]

We can talk all we want about what should happen in the present, but do you know what should have happened 15 years ago? Rare should have made a Metroid game for the N64. That is what SHOULD have happened.

[Kytim89]

Releasing Rare games on the VC is money in the bank. I would definitely buy Killer Instinct Gold. But yeah...this idea is bullish.

As for the two games, my guess they are from a developer who was given a Wii U Dev kit early; probably EA.

I would buy everything twice. 

[ThePerm]

it seemed almost inconceivable that Nintendo would let Rare go when they did. When it happened I thought it was weird they let the IPs go too. N64 might as well have been a console made by Rare. IF I were Nintendo I would really really try to get as many IPs as possible. I would own Sega and would have never let Rare go. As much as I like Microsoft now, they still mismanaged Rare into the ground. Now would be a good time to buy back the franchises. Microsoft just posted its first quarterly loss ever.

[Kytim89]

I wonder if Nintendo could get Rare cheaper tha they paid for them since they have been run into the ground by Microsoft? How about 100 million?

[noname2200]

We can talk all we want about what should happen in the present, but do you know what should have happened 15 years ago? Rare should have made a Metroid game for the N64. That is what SHOULD have happened.

I can see it now: "You must collect 98 artifacts, 22 Chozo feathers, 16 Federation Emblems, and 8 fhwagads to proceed to Ridley."

[Adrock]

I like that Rare never made Metroid 64. I don't think we would have gotten the same Metroid Prime or even at all. That 8 year absence plus Ocarina of Time made the game what it was.

I wonder if Nintendo could get Rare cheaper tha they paid for them since they have been run into the ground by Microsoft? How about 100 million?

I don't know how much Nintendo paid for their 49% of Rare back in the 90s but $100 million to acquire them today seems low, especially with inflation. Rare and their assets are probably worth less now than they did when Microsoft bought them in 2002 since they've been mishandled or just plain dormant. To be worth almost 1/4 of what Microsoft paid is stretching it.

[Ian Sane]

Getting Rare's IP back would be awesome!  It feels right, like things would be "correct" again.  At the very least having Rare's N64 titles on the VC would make sense.  The N64 selection is severely compromised without those games.  Cutting Rare out of Nintendo's history is like cutting out Yokoi or Miyamoto.

Though Banjo-Kazooie is a pretty silly choice to be the Rare IP Nintendo is most interested in.  Banjo-Kazooie was just the Super Mario 64 sequel EAD wasn't going to give us.  If they got BK but none of the rest, what have they really added?  So we just get Super Mario Galaxy 3 with BK?  The impact is minimal.  Perfect Dark is the truly valuable IP.  There is reason Goldeneye was Rare's biggest hit on the N64.  It was totally different than anything Nintendo themselves made.  I think the truly valuable Rare IPs would be Perfect Dark, Killer Instinct, Jet Force Gemini and Blast Corps because those would actually add to Nintendo's library.  They're different than what Nintendo already provides.  We don't need Rare's IP back to make more 3D platformers and kart racers.

And if Nintendo thinks that a Retro developed BK game is the big money maker over a Retro developed Perfect Dark, well their heads are so far us their asses they just be seeing through their belly buttons.

I think getting all of Rare's IP back, or least the one's that were created on Nintendo systems (ie: MS can keep Viva Pinata), would be the valuable move.  Getting just BK back is a waste of time and money.  Mario With A Bear is fun and all but will have zero impact on, well, anything.
 
And Retro totally did Metroid right.  I see no reason to tinker with history on that one.  I think Nintendo should never have sold Rare (or forced Star Fox into Dinosaur Planet) but things worked out right for Metroid... until recently.

[shingi_70]

Not going to happen for a number of reasons.

1) The Rare IP is very bauble for Microsoft.
2) Rare is Microsoft's main kinect studio and is also heavily invested kn the avatar stuff on the OS side.
3)Rare helps other developers on a tech level similar to how Sony Santa Monica helps smaller studios.
4)Rare is currently hiring for multiple next gen xbox games.
)

[Chozo Ghost]

Nintendo never should have sold Rare's IPs in the first place. Selling the studio itself was the right move because all the talent was gone and it was basically an empty husk of what it used to be, but the franchises were worth holding onto. Why did Nintendo part with those?

[Ceric]

Nintendo never should have sold Rare's IPs in the first place. Selling the studio itself was the right move because all the talent was gone and it was basically an empty husk of what it used to be, but the franchises were worth holding onto. Why did Nintendo part with those?

Because MS really wanted them.

[shingi_70]

Nintendo never should have sold Rare's IPs in the first place. Selling the studio itself was the right move because all the talent was gone and it was basically an empty husk of what it used to be, but the franchises were worth holding onto. Why did Nintendo part with those?

While people left much of the talent didn't leave until after the last Banjo and Viva Pintana. Some hyperbole there. Also Rare owned the IP not nintendo. I'm honestly surprised at how many people didn't know that. All of The OG IP made from Rare stayed with them with expection of a few. If if nintendo wanted them they couldn't have did anything.

[Chozo Ghost]

Also Rare owned the IP not nintendo.

I'm well aware of that, but the fact of the matter is Nintendo owned Rare, so everything Rare owned Nintendo also owned. Do you get it?

[Disco Stu]

Also Rare owned the IP not nintendo.

I'm well aware of that, but the fact of the matter is Nintendo owned Rare, so everything Rare owned Nintendo also owned. Do you get it?

Actually, Nintendo only owned 49% of Rare.  This why they were always called 2nd party instead of 1st party developers.  I'm pretty sure any new IPs developed internally by Rare were owned wholly by them.

[Louieturkey]

Also Rare owned the IP not nintendo.

I'm well aware of that, but the fact of the matter is Nintendo owned Rare, so everything Rare owned Nintendo also owned. Do you get it?

Actually, Nintendo only owned 49% of Rare.  This why they were always called 2nd party instead of 1st party developers.  I'm pretty sure any new IPs developed internally by Rare were owned wholly by them.

This is correct.  The only way Nintendo would have been able to get those IPs was to buy them, either from the Stamper brothers or from Microsoft once they bought the brother's shares.

[Chozo Ghost]

Okay then. But if they owned 49% of Rare then doesn't that mean they were 49% owners of these franchises as well?

[Disco Stu]

Okay then. But if they owned 49% of Rare then doesn't that mean they were 49% owners of these franchises as well?

Obviously this is speculation on my part, but I would assume it was a stipulation of the contract when Nintendo bought the non-controlling share of the company that this would not be the case.

[Spak-Spang]

No.  It means they were 49% share holders in a company.  If you own a company's shares you do not get any right to their assets.  You are only a shareholder.

Now, if you had majority or super majority shareholder you could possibly have more weight...again it all depends on conditions of the shares though.

[shingi_70]

Okay then. But if they owned 49% of Rare then doesn't that mean they were 49% owners of these franchises as well?

Technically Yes but for a IP buyout to go through than the shareholders wouldst have to agree and Microsoft becoming the majority shareholder killed any chance of that.

Thats the main reason why Nintendo sold off their shares to Microsoft.

[Ian Sane]

At what point did the talent leave Rare?  When defending Nintendo's decision to sell them all I hear is that "well everyone who was any good had left".  Uh huh.  When did this happen?  Conker's Bad Fur Day kicked ass.  Star Fox Adventures is a pretty low note to end the Nintendo/Rare era on but it isn't just outright crap.  I would call it a well-made game with some major flawed ideas (and made by a team that had clearly lost their passion for the project when the big company execs shoehorned an unrelated IP into their game).  Did everyone skip out between Conker and SFA or is this revisionist history to defend the all-mighty infallible Nintendo.  All I get is vague answers.  Who left and when?  And no, don't point out DK64 and say "that game sucked" to defend yourself because Rare still released awesome games, including Perfect Dark, after DK64.

To me it seems like Nintendo sold off the company that almost single-handedly kept the N64 afloat in North America because their consistently great and successful games were often delayed even though Nintendo themselves always did that anyway.  And while Rare sucked with Microsoft, that's the point.  They sucked with Microsoft.  The Nintendo/Rare collaboration was what created the magic.

I look at the Rare sale as Nintendo pretty much signing the Cube's death certificate.  Okay so we're going in with the image that we're some kiddy company and the only cool stuff we got is Rare and Zelda.  So let's sell Rare and turn Zelda into a cartoon and then act completely befuddled when the system underperforms.

Did Star Fox Adventures suck because Rare had lost it or because Nintendo meddled with it in a way I would expect out of Activision or EA?  Hell the game came out around the same time Rare was sold.  The sale didn't happen overnight.  Is it possible that the impending sale could have had some effect on the SFA team's work?  You start off with this ambitious N64 game and then you have to move it to another system and then some meddling exec (ironically a fellow game designer) sabotages your whole creative vision and insists you insert an unrelated IP (with ridiculous gameplay elements like the Arwing levels that would naturally have to be thrown in) and this is all happening while there is talk that your company might be sold to someone else.  Could there be a less inspiring work environment?  Dinosaur Planet was likely ruined by outside factors.

[MagicCow64]

Didn't quite a few staff members leave after just about every game was published, starting with Goldeneye and culminating with the Stampers hanging it up? The Conker project was long-in-the-works, as was DP/SFA, so you could maybe assume that those teams were constituted during the height of their creative prowess. But then you've got Mickey's Speedway USA, DK64, Jet Force Gemini (people have a lot of nostalgia for this game, but I don't think it stands up next to BK or PD), and the announced Kameo (which looked lame to begin with and turned out to fulfill that promise). Then Microsoft era: Grabbed by the Ghoulies, Conker port, Perfect Dark Zero (hiss, boo), BK: Nuts and Bolts, Viva Pinata (which was actually pretty good), and finally Kinect Sports.

I think Rare looked on the wane toward the end of the 64, and never really recovered creatively. The question might be how much of the staff defection and creative decline can be directly attributed to Nintendo's meddling. Probably a lot. I used to read the Uncle Tusk and Letters columns back in the day, and in the last few years they were letting quite a few thinly veiled jabs fly at "Ninty", culminating with that Mr. Pants Christmas Tree image with what were clearly a PS2 and an Xbox wrapped beneath it.

[TJ Spyke]

Nintendo put up with a lot of crap from Rare, like the constant delays in development. If anything, Nintendo should have been more strict with them.

[Sarail]

I wonder if Nintendo could get Rare cheaper tha they paid for them since they have been run into the ground by Microsoft? How about 100 million?

But see, that's the thing. They'd just be buying the name. Rare's talent has all scattered and left. It's not Rare anymore.. just a company that designs avatars and Kinect games for Microsoft.

[Chozo Ghost]

their consistently great and successful games were often delayed even though Nintendo themselves always did that anyway.

Perhaps it is no coincidence that both Nintendo and Rare are known for consistently great games, and also delays of those said games. Its like if they game isn't ready they have no problem holding off on releasing it until its just right as opposed to rushing it out before its ready.

In contrast to that, look at what Bethesda did last November in releasing Skyrim in order to meet the holiday season even though the game was clearly not ready (at least not the PS3 version anyway). That game NEEDED to be delayed because it wasn't ready, but Bethesda doesn't care. Getting those holiday sales were more important to them than having a bug-free product.

Nintendo put up with a lot of crap from Rare, like the constant delays in development. If anything, Nintendo should have been more strict with them.

I disagree, for the reason I just explained above. In the N64 days there was no such thing as patches for games. If a game was rushed out and it wasn't ready, then it would remain in that condition forever. There was no patch or DLC system to correct it. Nowadays game companies can get away with rushing incomplete games out to some extent, but even though nowadays there are online patches, its still generally frowned on.

There is a reason Rare is known for the stellar quality of its games. I think if they did things they way you are suggesting they would probably have a somewhat different reputation.

[Adrock]

It's pretty well-documented that Miyamoto had frequent correspondences with Rare every month and would fly out to the UK to observe their progress a couple times a year. Miyamoto often had to tell Rare what they were doing wrong and how to fix it. That same kind of handholding should be familiar to Nintendo fans because it's what gave us Eternal Darkness and Metroid Prime. The difference between Rare (and Silicon Knights for that matter) and Retro Studios is that Retro Studios eventually earned their autonomy by not sucking. Miyamoto doesn't have to babysit them. I'm sure Nintendo steps in every now and then, but for the most part, Retro Studios is trusted to make good games.

[Kytim89]

It's pretty well-documented that Miyamoto had frequent correspondences with Rare every month and would fly out to the UK to observe their progress a couple times a year. Miyamoto often had to tell Rare what they were doing wrong and how to fix it. That same kind of handholding should be familiar to Nintendo fans because it's what gave us Eternal Darkness and Metroid Prime. The difference between Rare (and Silicon Knights for that matter) and Retro Studios is that Retro Studios eventually earned their autonomy by not sucking. Miyamoto doesn't have to babysit them. I'm sure Nintendo steps in every now and then, but for the most part, Retro Studios is trusted to make good games.

I was always under the impression that Miyamoto chastized Rare for developing the origila DKC to be too similar to that of Mario, and the I heared conflicting reports that he is actually too polite to insult the quality of some one else's work. What really happened?