Topic: 2 Zelda's on DS?

[Avinash_Tyagi]

Liberation recently held an interview with Eiji Aonuma, who has been working on the Zelda series amd had a lot to say about where Link would be heading on the GameCube and the DS. Eiji Aonuma’s exact words can be found at Jeux-France, but for those who have trouble reading French the main points are:


There will definitely be Zelda game on the DS

The concept of The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords was an experiment for possible DS games, and to see what double screens could produce.

However it would be “shameful” not to have a true Zelda along with a Four Swords-eqsue version, so is that possibly two DS Zelda games already?

The Legend of Zelda for the GameCube is finished, but Nintendo are remaining tightlipped about everything; title, theme, everything. (So no Gates of the Realm. None)

Link’s next adventure on the GameCube will be out in Japan at the end of the year, and “will be very, very beautiful.

Cubed3.com

[kirby_killer_dedede]

...how can the game be finished without a theme?  

[Avinash_Tyagi]

It has one, they just won't tell us

[vudu]

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Eiji Aonuma’s exact words can be found at Jeux-France

Anyone else find that sentence hysterical?

[Bill Aurion]

"The gameplay ideas we came up with for Four Swords provided examples on what kind of games would be possible on the Nintendo DS and what kind of advantages the double-screen would enable. It was all theoretical, but today we realize it's a pity -- a real shame -- that we haven't created a demonstration of a real, great Zelda game for DS."

Sounds more like Aonuma is disappointed that Four Swords inspired the DS, yet a DS version still hasn't been showed...(irony)

[Pale]

I expect to see a first party Four Swords style and a Flagship "traditional" zelda.  Especially with hwo beautiful Minish Cup is (IMO).

[Avinash_Tyagi]

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The gameplay ideas we came up with for Four Swords provided examples on what kind of games would be possible on the Nintendo DS and what kind of advantages the double-screen would enable. It was all theoretical, but today we realize it's a pity -- a real shame -- that we haven't created a demonstration of a real, great Zelda game for DS."

Sounds more like Aonuma is disappointed that Four Swords inspired the DS, yet a DS version still hasn't been showed...(irony)

Probably depends on who has the better translation, though in truth I'd be surprised if a "real" zelda game wasn't in development for the DS, wouldn't you?  

[PaLaDiN]

I know French... as far as I can make out, the whole quote from Jeux-France means this: "4 swords was an inspiration for making the DS, a demonstration of what games could be done on the DS... so now it would be a damn shame if we didn't make the opposite demonstration: what the DS can do for a real, great Zelda game."

It seems to me that Four Swords DS has undergone a transformation into a better Zelda DS. Who knows, Four Swords might be the multiplayer part.

The rest of the translation is accurate... Zelda GC is already done and will be beautiful, Eiji was 200% involved and it's set after WW.

[joshnickerson]

So it's finished? As in 100%? I want it now!!!

Actually, that does make more sense. Target it for a holiday release, and since it's finished, we won't have to worry about any possible delays.

[Bill Aurion]

Edit: Translation error...Zelda is "coming" not finished...But like that changes the release date!

[Avinash_Tyagi]

Still with it only being feburary, if it only needs polish, we shouldn't have to worry about a delay.

[PaLaDiN]

No, actually, not a translation error, not on my part.

"Le prochain épisode de Zelda conçu pour GameCube est déjà achevé" means "Zelda GC is already done."

If there's a translation error, it's Jeux-France's fault.

[Savior]

Ha! I knew it I knew it !  a Full 3D Zelda and the multiplayer spinoff... Cool beans, ill definetly get a new 3D Zelda on the DS I knew Ninty wouldnt disapoint!

[PaLaDiN]

Oh dear God, I sincerely hope it isn't 3D. I want a proper 2D Zelda... don't halfass it by switching dimensions and hoping the mainstream is satisfied.

[Hostile Creation]

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Anyone else find that sentence hysterical?

I saw the irony in it, yes

[Savior]

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Originally posted by: PaLaDiN
Oh dear God, I sincerely hope it isn't 3D. I want a proper 2D Zelda... don't halfass it by switching dimensions and hoping the mainstream is satisfied.

Good for you, just buy Four Swords, ill buy a new 3D Zelda. We both can be happy

[Bill Aurion]

How about we be even more happy with 2d Zeldas while you and your Zelda fan poser self go pout somewhere...

[Savior]

Fine this "zelda poser" will enjoy the GCN Zelda instead how bout them apples.  Its going to be better than the Four Swords, trackers spinoff junk anyways

[PaLaDiN]

Eiji did say it was going to be very, very beautiful...

I'm hoping that means it's going to be celshaded again.

Probably not though... oh well.

As for better than 4 swords... it's 3D, so not likely. Most likely it'll be another OoT... most overrated game ever and epic disappointment after LttP.

By all means, enjoy your apple. It's got worms in it.

[Caillan]

Nintendo said they wanted to use cel shading for the 64 Zeldas but didn't have the power to do so. The DS is somewhere in betweeen the 64 and the Cube, so they could use enhanced and stylised graphics similar to OoT or a cut down version of WW's engine.

I'm not too fussed whether or not it's 3D or 2D.

[Djunknown]

Man, everyone's so damn snippety.  Take a chill pill or something.

Some other intresting tidbits:

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Le prochain épisode de Zelda conçu pour GameCube est déjà achevé mais je ne peux absolument rien en dire de plus

" the next Zelda [concept] for the gamecube is already finished, but I can't absolutely say can't say anyomore"

Brackets mine. Concu is the past tense of "conceive" but I took a more loose translation as concept. Because as you read more:

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Ce prochain grand Zelda, qui fait suite chronologiquement à l'épisode WindWaker, sortira au Japon à la fin 2005.

"This next big Zelda, which follows after [chronologically] after the Wind Waker,  [come out] to Japan at the end of 2005"

the word "Sortira" literally means "Go out" so I took a looser translation here. So the big man is shooting for a late 2k5 release for Japan? That's why it makes sense that they have the concept down of what the next Zelda's going to be like, not that its 100 percent complete.

Also, it may seem Aonuma wasn't lying about this being a sequel to Wind Waker. Maybe it'll be like the releationship betwen OoT and Wind Waker? We'll see.

[Bill Aurion]

Using toon-shading would be the only thing that would get me to accept a 3d handheld Zelda...There's absolutely no reason to have the same 3d style on both console and handheld...

[Savior]

By your logic, its pointless to make 3D Games on the Ds! i mean theres Mario Sunshine why make Mario DS?


oh and i know its unrelated to the Ds... but the stuff on the GCN Zelda is interesting... after Wind Waker? so its Wind Waker link on Epona? not OOT link?

[Bill Aurion]

I think 3d in handhelds is pointless, period...But anyone should realize that playing the same looking game on both the console and handheld is stupid...This is Sony logic you are working with here, BAD...And the REAL Mario DS in dev is 2d...

And yes, it's most likely Wind Waker Link...It's definitely not OoT Link...  

[Mario]

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Originally posted by: Savior
By your logic, its pointless to make 3D Games on the Ds! i mean theres Mario Sunshine why make Mario DS?

Uh, no. That's your stupid logic that you just made up on the spot.

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oh and i know its unrelated to the Ds... but the stuff on the GCN Zelda is interesting... after Wind Waker? so its Wind Waker link on Epona? not OOT link?

It is Epona? I don't think so.

[Savior]

Quote
Originally posted by: Mario

Quote
Originally posted by: Savior
By your logic, its pointless to make 3D Games on the Ds! i mean theres Mario Sunshine why make Mario DS?

Uh, no. That's your stupid logic that you just made up on the spot.

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oh and i know its unrelated to the Ds... but the stuff on the GCN Zelda is interesting... after Wind Waker? so its Wind Waker link on Epona? not OOT link?

It is Epona? I don't think so.

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I think 3d in handhelds is pointless

Not stupid logic to me.

Sure looks like Epona from the Screen Shots...  but who knows  

[Bill Aurion]

I doubt horses live over a thousand years, even in videogame land...

[Savior]

I know so ill be anxious to see whats the background with this new horse.

Some new horse racing mini games would be killer racing for rupees!  

[Caillan]

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Using toon-shading would be the only thing that would get me to accept a 3d handheld Zelda...There's absolutely no reason to have the same 3d style on both console and handheld...

We've already got a toon-shaded Zelda, and we're getting the other style as well. It doesn't matter what they use for the handheld one, there'll be one with the same on the Cube as well.

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Uh, no. That's your stupid logic that you just made up on the spot.

Bill said that having a handheld Zelda game with the same graphical style as a console Zelda game is stupid. Both Super Mario 64 DS and the sidescrolling one use graphics similar to Sunshine's. Therefore both games will suck, or something.

[Bill Aurion]

It's not the graphics that gets to me, it's the GAMEPLAY...Since that's what we do right? We PLAY games...I want a different experience on my handheld than on my console, that's the reason why I play handheld games...The reason why I brought up toon-shading is because I love the style so much and I feel it was killed off way too soon...  

[PaLaDiN]

"" the next Zelda [concept] for the gamecube is already finished, but I can't absolutely say can't say anyomore"

Brackets mine. Concu is the past tense of "conceive" but I took a more loose translation as concept."

The interview was French. There's no way that translates even loosely to what you're saying because concu means "that has been conceived". The conception was already finished a long time ago, what he's saying is already finished now is the Zelda game itself.

What he's saying is "The next Zelda, that was conceived for Gamecube, is already finished."

"the word "Sortira" literally means "Go out" so I took a looser translation here. So the big man is shooting for a late 2k5 release for Japan? That's why it makes sense that they have the concept down of what the next Zelda's going to be like, not that its 100 percent complete."

No, actually. "Sortira" is future tense of "sortir". It means "will come out".

It's possible the interview itself required translators for Eiji who didn't do their job right (this was a French magazine directly interviewing Aonuma if I'm not mistaken). In which case those translators should get fired.

The part of the interview that supports your argument better is this:

"Je suis engagé à 200 % dans son développement", which means "I am 200% involved in its development.", when they should have used "je me suis engagé", which is "I involved myself". That means he's still involved in its development.

So either the article writer or the interview translator needs to be beheaded.  

[Ian Sane]

I have yet to play a bad Zelda game.  Even Zelda II seems more dated then bad.  And know the CD-i games that Nintendo had nothing to do with don't count.  So I'm sure Zelda DS will be great.  If you don't like a Zelda game you've got picky tastes.

I agree with Bill in that it would be good for Zelda DS to differ from the Gamecube Zelda.  There's a couple different takes on Zelda now and since there are multiple systems to work with they might as well try different things out.  When the new Cube Zelda was first shown some people were upset because they preferred Wind Waker's style.  My arguement at the time was we were getting the best scenario because we were getting BOTH styles.  It was the perfect compromise.  Everyone got something they wanted and those of us who are less superfiscial got TWO games we were interested in.  Everybody won.

I don't feel that they absolutely must do something different on a portable than they do on a console but I think it's a better approach.  Otherwise why even make seperate systems?  If both consoles and portables have the exact same types of games then just make one system that can act as both.

Personally I want Zelda DS to be 2D because I'm afraid 2D is going to get killed off by the PSP and I want to see it survive.  I love how when Nintendo decided to make Metroid Prime they made a direct 2D sequel to Super Metroid at the exact same time.  They kept the classic format alive while also going off in an exciting new direction.  They've done this so far with Zelda as well and I want them to continue to do this.  Otherwise it will be like Mario where we wonder if we'll ever see a new 2D Mario platformer ever again.

[Caillan]

Each Zelda game has been different from it's predecessor whether or not it shares a grphical style, so I think we can be confident we're going to get something original. In terms of the DS' graphical capabilities, so far we've really only seen a demo and an improved port. If Nintendo haven't been scared away from toon-shading by WW's reception, I think they'll be able to pull it off.

"Using toon-shading would be the only thing that would get me to accept a 3d handheld Zelda..."
"But anyone should realize that playing the same looking game on both the console and handheld is stupid..."
"It's not the graphics that gets to me, it's the GAMEPLAY...Since that's what we do right? We PLAY games..."

Okay then.  

[KnowsNothing]

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Otherwise it will be like Mario where we wonder if we'll ever see a new 2D Mario platformer ever again.

It's coming to the DS  

[Ian Sane]

"It's coming to the DS"

No it's not.  We're getting a 2.5D Mario game.  That's not technically the same thing.  Not stylistically the same anyway.

[thepoga]

i just cant believe that no new true mario platformer was released on the GBA. : (
The GBA was perfect for it too!

[norebonomis]

you 2d people. your old. :: points and laughs ::

[thepoga]

i like 3d, its just i can't believe nintendo only released ports of the mario games. And they weren't even enhanced like Mario 64 DS. Hopefully, nintendo will decide against porting OOT or MM, but i wouldn't be enitrely against it if it came with a new 4 swords game. It should be the other way around. The port comes with 4 swords.  

[TMW]

What does style have to do with anything?  If it plays like a 2D platformer, but has 3D graphics, that still makes it a 2D platformer.

==
As for the game front...I just want some Zelda action for my poor, underused DS.  Is that too much to ask?

[Pale]

You're all crazy.

[Ian Sane]

"What does style have to do with anything? If it plays like a 2D platformer, but has 3D graphics, that still makes it a 2D platformer."

It's hard to explain but it just seems like it has to be sprite based or it doesn't feel like a 2D platformer.  Otherwise it feels like one of those pre-Mario 64 crappy polygonal games that were made solely to please the brainwashed masses who refused to except anything 2D.  Sprites just look better than polygons.  I consider polygons a 3D gameplay necessity.  If there is no need to go polygonal from a gameplay perspective there's no point in using them because they look worse.  When I want to play a 2D game I want it to be really 2D like how games were ten years ago.  The nostalgia plays a big part in it.

[nemo_83]

i think they should keep zelda 2d on the DS.  

[Pale]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Otherwise it feels like one of those pre-Mario 64 crappy polygonal games that were made solely to please the brainwashed masses who refused to except anything 2D.

Like Donkey Kong Country?  Come on, that was a great game.  It was sprites, but it still looked like it was rendered.

[darknight06]

No it didn't.  Yeah, the sprites were rendered in 3D first, but they didn't exibit any of 3D's little quirks.  That and the environments still looked very much like 2D graphics.

[Pale]

3D's little quirks?

[KDR_11k]

Rendered sprites look like ass, I let NoE know that when they let me participate in a survey about MvsDK. I just hate the way they look and how they destroy any atmosphere.

[Pale]

asthetic opinions aside, you have to admit that both MvsDK and DKCountry were pretty fun games though right?

[thepoga]

the GBA remake of DKC wasn't that great. something about just felt off and the colors were wierd.

[darknight06]

The screen ratio was different, therefore the graphics were edited somewhat to reflect that.  Color was for a similar reason, they couldn't bring the full color graphics of a few of the areas over because of the GBA inability to display it correctly. (it'd be too dark)

[cat_cube]

I can't understand why people keep slagging off every single game that uses rendered sprites. IMO if it's used just right it can make the characters in a game look really good actually. Have you guys seriously not experienced Klonoa: Door to Phantomile yet? It did a really good job mixing rendered sprites together with 3D backgrounds that suited best the style of the game.

[Myxtika1 Azn]

What is this word "rendered" that you guys are talking about?  Isn't anything image that can be seen on the screen rendered?

[thepoga]

I think what they mean is "pre-rendered" sprites. It's where they made the sprites by taking the images from CGI models.

[Pale]

yeah sorry....referring to pre rendered as poga said...

[KDR_11k]

"rendered" as opposed to "hand painted". A lawyer would argue that a painting is a rendering as well but I think we had a similar semantics debade about FMV vs. video file playback some time ago.

Pale: I dunno about DKC since I've never played it but MvsDK was definitely weaker than DK'94. Either way, I think the rendered sprites hurt the game's atmosphere.

[couchmonkey]

I have to admit, something about the pre-rendered sprites in Mario vs. DK brought the game down in my opinion too.  But having said that, I like seeing 2D game graphics done in all formats.  I think Donkey Kong Country, Yoshi's Story and Sabre Wulf look great with pre-rendered sprites,  I think Alien Hominid and Yoshi Touch n' Go and Capcom vs. SNK look great with traditional sprites, and I think Goemon's Great Adventure and Viewtiful Joe look great with 3D graphics.

As for a new Zelda, I'll take absolutely anything Nintendo gives me.  I would kind of like to see them try something that combines different perspectives.  Maybe like Paper Mario, only the camera could switch to a totally overhead view in certain puzzle situations.

[Ian Sane]

I've noticed that pre-rendered graphics look great on the SNES but look like ass on the GBA.  I imagine it has to do with brightness required for GBA games.  Pre-rendered sprites look best with more shadows.

I consider Super Mario RPG to be the best looking game ever made.  It just looks PERFECT and it uses pre-rendered sprites.  So I don't have a problem with pre-rendered sprites in general.  But there's a certain mood and setting that it works better with.  MvsDK did NOT have the correct mood and setting.  In that case it looked out of place.  I think it's mostly because the box art had flat cartoon art so the style they went with in the game didn't fit the style they used in the design.  There wasn't as much detail either.  It has to be just so and Nintendo didn't get it right with MvsDK.  It's like how FMV can work great but Nintendo royally goofed it in Super Mario Sunshine.

Anyway I prefer pre-rendered sprites for a 2D game over polygons for a 2D game because of two reasons.  First of all pre-rendered sprites look much smoother and don't look as blocky.  Second sprites allow for better animation.  They use frame-by-frame so we don't have as weird pantomime crap like we see often with polygons.  You also don't have to worry about how the polygons interact with each other.  There's less clipping and if there is something like light or rain you don't have to worry about it interacting with the polygon in a weird manner.  With sprites if you want the character to enter the light you just make another lighter sprite.  Though not as realistic it allows for consistency so you don't have the whole look ruined due to random goofs.

[darknight06]

"I've noticed that pre-rendered graphics look great on the SNES but look like ass on the GBA. I imagine it has to do with brightness required for GBA games. Pre-rendered sprites look best with more shadows."

The resolution plays a significant part of that too.  Part of the reason DKC on GBA looked worse in some respects have everything to do with the 64 vertical pixel difference between the SNES and the GBA.  Make the sprites too big and you'll have a situation similar to what Mega Man and Bass suffered through to an extent on the GBA, graphics taking up too much screen real estate. (though I will give them credit for some clever cropping)  Technically speaking, there was no reason for DKC to come out inferior looking given the hardware spec is a bit more than that of an SNES, other than the GBA screen.  Now the DS takes the brightness and color issue out of it since it's backlit, so if they were to do something like this on there instead, it SHOULD be every bit as good, if not FAR superior to the SNES.  

I actually have to agree with you on MvDK's style.  What that game needed was a solidly drawn true 2D cel aninated look to it instead of the 3D rendering they did.  Yeah, it looked slick but it had no life to it.  It kinda felt like, "here's your graphics" instead of "here's your world."

I can give you another reason to like sprites over polys in a 2D world.  Sprite collision detection is just boxes, 3D models need collision spheres which can be a lot more iffy at times.

[Aussie Ben PGC]

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Anyway I prefer pre-rendered sprites for a 2D game over polygons for a 2D game because of two reasons.  First of all pre-rendered sprites look much smoother and don't look as blocky.  Second sprites allow for better animation.  They use frame-by-frame so we don't have as weird pantomime crap like we see often with polygons.

Back in my day, we had to live with a four frame walk cycle!  Sometimes our sprites would change shape for no apparent reason!

Ah, Cranky Kong -- where would I be without you?  And I'm not talking about the new disgustingly helpful Cranky Kong, either.  "Don't worry boys, you'll get better."  Ugh.

[PaLaDiN]

They bastardized Cranky Kong? When did this happen?

[darknight06]

Rare did it on the GBA DKCs.

[KDR_11k]

I can give you another reason to like sprites over polys in a 2D world. Sprite collision detection is just boxes, 3D models need collision spheres which can be a lot more iffy at times.

Bullshit. To your physics engine there is no difference between sprites and models, if you don't have a third dimension there is no reason to use three-dimensional collision shapes. You'd still have your hitboxes. Works the other way around as well, Doom doesn't have hitboxes despite using sprites, it uses cylinders.

[Aussie Ben PGC]

Quote
Originally posted by: darknight06
Rare did it on the GBA DKCs.

I was actually thinking Namco with their disgustingly pleasant Cranky in Donkey Konga, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

[thepoga]

man, visiting cranky kong on DKC was the best.

[Kirby (cheat wizard)]

Going back a little bit: MvsDK and DKC may look bad  on GBA or GBA SP but they looks great on the DS!

[KDR_11k]

Eh? I didn't see any improvement from the DS.

[Flames_of_chaos]

Its maybe better on the DS because of the brighter screen.