Topic: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis

[TJ Spyke]

Having games the size of postage stamps makes it more likely the games might get lost. This is a major downside to having things small... I'm sure it would be possible to go even smaller than the size of MicroSD cards if one really wanted to, but if its so tiny you could accidentally inhale it then that';s just too small...

So while stuff CAN certainly keep getting smaller, I think a line needs to be drawn when you get to the size of a credit card or so. Smaller is nice to an extent, but you don't something easily lost or broken... and heck, its theoretically possible a kid could choke to death by trying to swallow his games. I'm surprised this hasn't happened already with the Nintendo DS games... but you definitely don't want to go any smaller than that or it surely will.

DS game cards are the size of postage stamps and people have no problems with those. Most people aren't that stupid to lose or break them.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Well if they can make the postage stamp sized SD cards upto 32GB, then imagine what kind of space they can put into a Credit Card or Business Card sized one?

[Chozo Ghost]

Another nice thing about cartridges is that the sizes can vary depending on what is needed, which will reduce the cost of smaller games. It was mentioned earlier that games like Animal Crossing and Super Paper Mario use a low amount of data, around 512MB, but they still need to be put on 4.7GB discs so they cost the same to produce as larger games.

Doesn't really matter. DVD discs are only like 10 cents to manufacture, so that's far less than even the cheapest cart imaginable.

[Stratos]

I think the technological growth of carts ensures that Nintendo will be using them for their handhelds far into the future if they continue to use a physical media to distribute games. Which is great since carts do not drain batteries like UMD and other disk media does because of the spinning drive.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Carts are more effective as a DRM than discs.  Modern 3rd parties will hump all over this idea.

[NovaQ]

It's a good thing carts are so durable, then.

[Stratos]

It's a good thing carts are so durable, then.

Yup. I've accidentally ran them through the wash and they come out playing fine and fresh smelling!

[Mop it up]

Another nice thing about cartridges is that the sizes can vary depending on what is needed, which will reduce the cost of smaller games. It was mentioned earlier that games like Animal Crossing and Super Paper Mario use a low amount of data, around 512MB, but they still need to be put on 4.7GB discs so they cost the same to produce as larger games.

Doesn't really matter. DVD discs are only like 10 cents to manufacture, so that's far less than even the cheapest cart imaginable.

It would matter if the next system uses cartridges.

Yup. I've accidentally ran them through the wash and they come out playing fine and fresh smelling!

I think everyone with a Game Boy has done that.

[Chozo Ghost]

It would matter if the next system uses cartridges.

I think you misunderstand the point I was trying to make. You were talking about the space used on DVD discs. I'm just saying that whether a game on a disc uses 512mb or 4.7gb or even a mere 64mb the cost to publish it is still exactly the same... because the cost of DVDs are fixed. Whether you use all the space on the DVD or not, it still costs exactly the same... you can leave most of the space blank, but you don't get any sort of discount in cost by doing that.

But with Carts its completely different. With carts it actually does matter how much space you use, because carts can have small memory or large memory depending on need. But even the smallest and least expensive cart you could possibly create is still going to cost way more than a 10 cent DVD, even if that cart only used 16mb of space...

If you think about it, all a DVD actually is is an extremely thin layer of aluminum sandwiched between layers of plastic. This makes optical discs EXTREMELY inexpensive compared to any other storage medium. Carts are MUCH more complex than this. I'm not quite sure all the components and materials needed to make a cart, but needless to say its quite a bit more complicated than a thin layer of foil surrounded by plastic.

Both mediums have their pros and cons. For optical medium their biggest plus is that they are extremely inexpensive, but that's about it. They are easily scratched, slow to read from, and cannot be written onto or saved onto the way carts can. I'm sure DS carts are far less expensive that N64 or SNES carts were back in the day, but the old argument is still applicable... just not quite to the same extent that it once was.

[Mop it up]

The cost is the reason why I don't think we'll see cartridges in Nintendo's next system, though I'm really hoping we will. I guess it will depend on what they hope to achieve with it. If they are serious about eliminating loading times then that's one way to do it. They probably still don't want to offer downloadable content, but something similar could be sold at retail as expansion cartridges. They did this sort of thing with the Famicom Disk System and that was over twenty years ago.

It will be interesting to see where they go from here.

[that Baby guy]

I'd love credit-card sized and shaped cards.  Like you said, though, price is a factor.  The manufacturing cost would, plain and simply, rise probably 500x over (assuming the cheapest 2 GB~ card would be $5.00 in mass production, versus a $.10 disc)  That's a big loss, in a lost of ways.  Solid state media would need to crumble before it's viable with how the market works today, probably.

[Chozo Ghost]

Credit card games would be convenient because they could fit into your wallet. If you had an empty wallet you could pack perhaps a half dozen or more games inside and then it could fit in your pocket, which would make taking your games with you ridiculously easy... it really couldn't get any easier than that, and if you had the system similarly small then that is even better.

[Deguello]

Carts aren't so cost-prohibitive that they aren't the format for the #1 Video game system this generation and possibly all time.  And the DS has the cheapest games too, whereas Disc-games actually went up in price.  The customer doesn't care about how much the disc costs the publishers.  They care about how much it is costing them.

The real reason carts cost so much back then was because of Nintendo's olde-tyme licensing structures.  Most of that has been resolved.  And even if it did come down to a $.50 GB Blu-Ray Disc vs. a $2-$4 16-32 GB SD Card/Hologram Card, I think most customers and most gamers would prefer the card, especially if it meant obliterated load times and a durable product, and increased durability of the console.  Seriously, who would prefer the load times?

[Ian Sane]

The real reason carts cost so much back then was because of Nintendo's olde-tyme licensing structures.  Most of that has been resolved.  And even if it did come down to a $.50 GB Blu-Ray Disc vs. a $2-$4 16-32 GB SD Card/Hologram Card, I think most customers and most gamers would prefer the card, especially if it meant obliterated load times and a durable product, and increased durability of the console.  Seriously, who would prefer the load times?

As much as I love carts, this gives me a major Wii third party support vibe.  Like Nintendo uses cartridges and the buying public eats it up... but third parties prefer the lower cost of discs and stick to the other consoles regardless of the Nintendo console's huge success and popularity.  Right now we're in a situation where because they made their console hardware too different from everyone else they screwed themselves out of third party support... and yet it doesn't seem to have any negative effect on their financial success (which sucks for us because it gives them zero incentive to address the issue).  I've love to use cartridges again but, ****, I'm not putting up with another generation like this.  So I'm kind of leaning towards Nintendo being more conventional next gen just to not give third parties a reason to ignore them.

Despite being the market leader Nintendo seems to have absolutely no clout with developers.  If the cost difference is still enough to turn third parties off maybe they should put that idea on hold and play ball a little bit more until they do have that clout.

The DS might use them but with a portable there are issues like battery life that don't apply to consoles and durability is more of a requirement.  And although the games are cheaper a lot of them are 2D and even if they're 3D they look like N64 games.  The cost of developing one obviously doesn't compare to something designed to push the PS3 hardware.  The cost to the consumer regarding carts vs. discs is unrelated to the costs of the media.  It's the development cost.

I want carts though.  It would be really nice if it worked out.  I want decent sized carts though.  There is no point in a home console having tiny carts like the DS.  I really hate how small DS games are.  I'm afraid of losing them.  I see their size as a necessary evil for portable gaming.  The only reason I would see to use them would be if you made a portable and console in one.  Credit card sized carts aren't a bad idea though.  I'd be fine with GBA size.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

It's not a big deal since 3rd parties will die out to maintain the balance that was tipped by Nintendo's success.  Either they die out now, or they get bought up then die out as a bigger entity.

[NWR_insanolord]

The real reason carts cost so much back then was because of Nintendo's olde-tyme licensing structures.  Most of that has been resolved.  And even if it did come down to a $.50 GB Blu-Ray Disc vs. a $2-$4 16-32 GB SD Card/Hologram Card, I think most customers and most gamers would prefer the card, especially if it meant obliterated load times and a durable product, and increased durability of the console.  Seriously, who would prefer the load times?

As much as I love carts, this gives me a major Wii third party support vibe.  Like Nintendo uses cartridges and the buying public eats it up... but third parties prefer the lower cost of discs and stick to the other consoles regardless of the Nintendo console's huge success and popularity.  Right now we're in a situation where because they made their console hardware too different from everyone else they screwed themselves out of third party support... and yet it doesn't seem to have any negative effect on their financial success (which sucks for us because it gives them zero incentive to address the issue).  I've love to use cartridges again but, ****, I'm not putting up with another generation like this.  So I'm kind of leaning towards Nintendo being more conventional next gen just to not give third parties a reason to ignore them.

Despite being the market leader Nintendo seems to have absolutely no clout with developers.  If the cost difference is still enough to turn third parties off maybe they should put that idea on hold and play ball a little bit more until they do have that clout.

The DS might use them but with a portable there are issues like battery life that don't apply to consoles and durability is more of a requirement.  And although the games are cheaper a lot of them are 2D and even if they're 3D they look like N64 games.  The cost of developing one obviously doesn't compare to something designed to push the PS3 hardware.  The cost to the consumer regarding carts vs. discs is unrelated to the costs of the media.  It's the development cost.

I want carts though.  It would be really nice if it worked out.  I want decent sized carts though.  There is no point in a home console having tiny carts like the DS.  I really hate how small DS games are.  I'm afraid of losing them.  I see their size as a necessary evil for portable gaming.  The only reason I would see to use them would be if you made a portable and console in one.  Credit card sized carts aren't a bad idea though.  I'd be fine with GBA size.

Wait a minute, haven't you always argued that third parties should be supporting the Wii simply because it's the market leader? You seem to be suggesting that Nintendo not do something that would be an improvement in a lot of ways in order to try and appease third parties.

[BlackNMild2k1]

NO reason to give the 3rd parties another excuse not to support the next Nintendo console.

Strategy is to get them on board first, and then change the price of admission.

[Chozo Ghost]

Carts aren't so cost-prohibitive that they aren't the format for the #1 Video game system this generation and possibly all time.  And the DS has the cheapest games too, whereas Disc-games actually went up in price.  The customer doesn't care about how much the disc costs the publishers.  They care about how much it is costing them.

The real reason carts cost so much back then was because of Nintendo's olde-tyme licensing structures.  Most of that has been resolved.  And even if it did come down to a $.50 GB Blu-Ray Disc vs. a $2-$4 16-32 GB SD Card/Hologram Card, I think most customers and most gamers would prefer the card, especially if it meant obliterated load times and a durable product, and increased durability of the console.  Seriously, who would prefer the load times?

Are SD cards REALLY that cheap for 16-32gb? I'll admit its been awhile since I shopped, but I remember at the stores they  cost like $20 for a 2gb and about $39 for a 4gb. Now this was a year or two ago when I went looking and I'm sure those costs have went down and I'm sure the capacities have gone up, but still... Even if a cart cost only $10 each to manufacture (which I think is a reasonable estimate) that's still a very significant chunk of money... its like 25% of the cost of the game on the shelf, and then there's the licensing fees and development costs and advertising costs and so forth.

If 3rd parties have a slim profit margin and then their costs suddenly increase by about $10 that would probably result in them either jumping ship as they did with the N64 or cutting back on development and release only stuff they think is almost certain to do well. This means there won't be as many high-risk experimental sort of games like No More Heroes and so forth.

[Chozo Ghost]

It's not a big deal since 3rd parties will die out to maintain the balance that was tipped by Nintendo's success.  Either they die out now, or they get bought up then die out as a bigger entity.

I really wonder why Nintendo doesn't use all this money they've made and just start buying up 3rd parties. That way, they can FORCE them to develop games for their system whether they want to or not. For example, if Nintendo bought Capcom we could see Street Fighter IV and RE 5 and then those franchises could be Nintendo exclusives FOREVER.

I think that would be a better use of the money instead of tossing it in a huge vault in Yamauchi's mansion so he can go swimming in it like Scrooge McDuck.

[NWR_insanolord]

All of Capcom's talent working 100% on Wii and DS projects with guidance from Nintendo would have the potential to create some amazing stuff. On the more likely side, I'm surprised Nintendo hasn't bought Next Level Games yet.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Nintendo has no idea how to manage third party publisher partnerships into making games.  See StarFox Assault.

Nintendo is giving 3rd parties a chance to change their own values, just as the Market has changed its values, by letting them face their own self-destruction.

3rd parties NOT changing, high techy console makers NOT changing is what lead to this big-glam-big-budget-big-industry-decline mess that we see outside of the Nintendo Market.

Get N or get out.

[NWR_insanolord]

But that's why Nintendo should buy them, they wouldn't be third parties anymore, they'd be first party internal development studios.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Making more kiddie games than ever.  Right.

[Ian Sane]

Wait a minute, haven't you always argued that third parties should be supporting the Wii simply because it's the market leader? You seem to be suggesting that Nintendo not do something that would be an improvement in a lot of ways in order to try and appease third parties.

Well they SHOULD support the Wii simply because it's the market leader but they DON'T.  So obviously Nintendo has to do something else to get their support.  Not fair, not right, but unfortunately it's reality.

I really wonder why Nintendo doesn't use all this money they've made and just start buying up 3rd parties. That way, they can FORCE them to develop games for their system whether they want to or not. For example, if Nintendo bought Capcom we could see Street Fighter IV and RE 5 and then those franchises could be Nintendo exclusives FOREVER.

If Nintendo bought these companies they would probably lose their identity.  Right now they're different from Nintendo and that makes them more interesting.

[NWR_insanolord]

Wait a minute, haven't you always argued that third parties should be supporting the Wii simply because it's the market leader? You seem to be suggesting that Nintendo not do something that would be an improvement in a lot of ways in order to try and appease third parties.

Well they SHOULD support the Wii simply because it's the market leader but they DON'T.  So obviously Nintendo has to do something else to get their support.  Not fair, not right, but unfortunately it's reality.

I really wonder why Nintendo doesn't use all this money they've made and just start buying up 3rd parties. That way, they can FORCE them to develop games for their system whether they want to or not. For example, if Nintendo bought Capcom we could see Street Fighter IV and RE 5 and then those franchises could be Nintendo exclusives FOREVER.

If Nintendo bought these companies they would probably lose their identity.  Right now they're different from Nintendo and that makes them more interesting.

I think the best way to do it if they were going to buy third parties is to buy them but make them mostly autonomous, so that they had to develop for Nintendo systems but they could maintain their own identity, kind of like Rare used to be.