Topic: People Need To Stop Bitching

[UncleBob]

So... you think Nintendo should only ever make games they know in advance people want to play?

Sounds bland.  I like the idea of Nintendo reaching out and developing new kinds of games that I don't know if I even want to play because they don't exist.

You do know Nintendo used to use extensive market testing on their games, before releasing them, right?  Nintendo used to care about what people thought of their games.  Most of Nintendo's games, and all of their big sellers, are based on existing genres (Wii Sports (sports), Wii Fit (sports/fitness), NSMBWii (2d platformer), Mario Kart (arcade racing)).  To say that Nintendo's mission statement is to make new types of games seems like a self induced delusion.  99.9% of all Nintendo games are made of existing, if not well established, ideas.

I'm not sure what posts you're reading, but apparently it's not mine.

I didn't say it was "Nintendo's mission statement" to try and create new types of games.  I said I like the idea of Nintendo developing new types of games and trying new ideas.  It's that simple.  Yes, most of Nintendo's output is based off of something else... but that doesn't mean they should never try anything new just because people aren't asking for it.  Did anyone ask for a platformer where you can't jump and have to buy each individual character for an additional $10 each?  No... but it sure as heck sold like hotcakes and is a damn fun game as well.

If you are happy with repetitive game styles, I suggest trying out the Madden series.

So... you think Nintendo should only ever make games they know in advance people want to play?

From what people are saying, its debatable whether Wii Music can even be considered a "game". Sounds like its a bit of "interactive art" that you fiddle around with for fun, but there is no scoring and you don't "win" or "lose".

Hm.  Sounds like Mario Paint.

Besides, I play video games to have fun... so if the purpose of this 'game' is to fiddle around for fun... yay!

What is important is that Nintendo made something that people didn't WANT to play.

Ummm... yeah. I don't know what to say about this if you really think it's unprecedented for Nintendo to make something that somebody out there isn't interested in playing...

Do you think it is odd that a company lost a half billion dollars despite have a product that was sold out for 3 years and had 5 games selling over 20 million copies?  Does that sound like a company that puts out games that people want to play or like a company that lost the plot?

Why yes... a company with multiple million+ selling games *does* sound exactly like a company that puts out games people want to play.

Anyone know offhand, how many copies did WiiMusic sell?

[Luigi Dude]

Unless Nintendo could do something really great with it, I sure didn't want Wii Music to be a Rock Band clone.  I would have preferred something like a modern version of Mario Paint's music creator, but enhanced to justify it being its own game.  If that had some sort of Rock Band-like game mode in it as well, all the better.

I wanted like a Nintendo synthesizer and the result was like those little kid music toys that Perm mentioned.

Soloing on a guitar is largely just going through scales.  Stay in the right scale and whatever you do will sound in key.  A music game that keeps the player in the scale but lets him **** around with whatever notes he wants in that scale would allow for non-musicians to jam but would have much more complexity and allow for actually writing original materal.  Something like THAT would be much more interesting than what Wii Music has and would still have casual appeal.

Actually Nintendo made a game just like that for the DS called Band Brothers which got a sequel that also came out in Europe as Jam with the Band.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daigasso!_Band_Brothers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jam_with_the_Band

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntC_DqHcrN8

You could create your own music using a wide variety of instruments and it was a great series.  It also had a wide variety of songs to play Rock Band style with the buttons as well.  Sadly Reggie and NOA didn't feel the same way and it wasn't released in North America.  Which is really sad because it was another amazing new IP Nintendo created and I say the best music creation video game ever made.

Of course since the DS isn't region locked if you really wanted to play it you can import Jam with the Band from Europe for a pretty cheap price since the game bombed badly over there.  I'd reccomend trying to import it since from your description this is the exact kind of game you wanted Nintendo to make and they made it.

[Chozo Ghost]

Hm.  Sounds like Mario Paint.

To be fair, Mario Paint did have a fly swatting mini game. I think there may have been some other stuff as well, but I can't quite remember off hand.

[marty]

@ uncle bob
Wether or not you find value in what nintendo does is up to you.  I haven't seen anything resembling new from Nintendo in quite some time.  If it makes you feel better to look down on people that like Madden, well, I guess that's the kind of person you are.  Seems kind of pathetic but I don't care. 
Nintendo lost 1/2 billion dollars last year. They aren't doing something right.
Wether or not you pretend that what nintendo does is worthwhile doesn't change the fact that they've lost money by not putting out games most people have an interest in playing.

[UncleBob]

Marty - for someone who's called me delusional and now pathetic, I don't think you have much of a right to worry about who I "look down on".  However, let me make it clear - I never said anything negative about folks who choose to play Madden.  I simply said if you prefer games that tread on old ground, Madden is the series for you.

I'm not sure how old you are, but something you learn as you get older is that correlation does not equal causation.  When you fully understand that concept, then we can discuss -again- some of the reasons why Nintendo lost money in their previous physical year.

[Luigi Dude]

@ uncle bob
Wether or not you find value in what nintendo does is up to you.  I haven't seen anything resembling new from Nintendo in quite some time.  If it makes you feel better to look down on people that like Madden, well, I guess that's the kind of person you are.  Seems kind of pathetic but I don't care. 
Nintendo lost 1/2 billion dollars last year. They aren't doing something right.
Wether or not you pretend that what nintendo does is worthwhile doesn't change the fact that they've lost money by not putting out games most people have an interest in playing.

The reasons for Nintendo's lose of money last year was because of the terrible 3DS sales for the 5 months after launch, the money being spend on Wii U development and the stronger Yen compared to the Euro and Dollar causing them to get f*cked over with exchange rates.

In terms of actual software sold they're still the strongest company in gaming. 

Here's what just their million sellers for their last fiscal year were. (April 1st 2011 to March 31st 2012)

Nintendo DS

Pokemon Black and White - 3.2 million  (14.71 million lifetime total)

New Super Mario Bros - 2.21 million  (29.09 million lifetime total)

Mario Kart DS - 1.53 million  (22.57 million lifetime total)

Kirby Mass Attack - 1.06 million

Nintendo 3DS

Super Mario 3D Land - 5.84 million

Mario Kart 7 - 5.24 million

Ocarina of Time 3D - 2.61 million

Pokemon Rumble Blast - 1.08 million

Wii

Mario Kart Wii - 5.43 million  (32.44 million lifetime total)

New Super Mario Bros Wii - 4.32 million  (26.26 million lifetime total)

Skyward Sword - 3.52 million

Wii Sports - 2.84 million  (79.60 million lifetime total)

Wii Sports Resort - 2.46 million  (30.14 million lifetime total)

Wii Party - 2.17 million  (7.94 million lifetime total)

Wii Fit Plus - 2 million  (20.48 million lifetime total)

Super Mario Galaxy - 1.36 million  (10.68 million lifetime total)

Kirby's Return to Dream Land - 1.31 million

Wii Play: Motion - 1.26 million


As you can see, Nintendo is still clearly doing something right.  What games exactly are you talking about because from the actual sales data, they're still making a lot of games most people have an interest in playing.

[Kairon]

Anyone know offhand, how many copies did WiiMusic sell?

Last I heard, more than 2.5 million worldwide.

[marty]

@uncle bob


I find it amusing to see that you will differentiate yourself from someone playing madden because they're missing out on "new experiences" on a board where you defend a company that's put out 10+ Mario Party games.  That imagined difference is ridiculous.  I found THAT pathetic.  I don't know if YOU are a pathetic person.  I'm not into making such assumptions.


Nintendo didn't sell enough games to cover their costs.  That's why they lost money.  IT IS delusional to try and come up with other reasons why that is the case.  The Wii didn't have any system sellers nor did the DS or, to any significant extent, the 3DS.  Again, I'm not applying any sort of quantity to you, personally, but to deny the reality that Nintendo lost money because they didn't sell enough games is delusional.  Nintendo makes their money selling games, ergo, if they lose money, they didn't sell enough games.  If they didn't sell enough games, it's because they didn't release games people would buy.


If you feel personally insulted by someone calling your opinions garbage, maybe you need to take a break from the internet.  Maybe spend some time coming up with better opinions rather than ducking out of conversation based on some perceived slight and claiming yourself to be too mature to have your opinions challenged by someone who disagrees with you.

[marty]

The reasons for Nintendo's lose of money last year was because of the terrible 3DS sales for the 5 months after launch, the money being spend on Wii U development and the stronger Yen compared to the Euro and Dollar causing them to get f*cked over with exchange rates.

Nintendo always has development costs, those costs are nothing new for the company.  The exchange rate will never translate a sale into a loss, so treating it like an expense seems silly.

Kirby Mass Attack - 1.06 millionSuper Mario 3D Land - 5.84 million
Mario 3D Kart - 5.24 million
Ocarina of Time 3D - 2.61 million
Pokemon Rumble Blast - 1.08 million
Skyward Sword - 3.52 million
Kirby's Return to Dream Land - 1.31 million

As you can see, Nintendo is still clearly doing something right.  What games exactly are you talking about because from the actual sales data, they're still making a lot of games most people have an interest in playing.

Nintendo's 2011 is sequels and ports.  And all of those games were outsold by Just Dance, and MW3 outsold all those games combined.  When Nintendo can sell 20+ million copies of a game, sales like that are bad.  When you lose $500,000,000+ dollars, you're not doing that good.  I doubt Nintendo is happy with those numbers.  Why should I pretend they're good?

[UncleBob]

lol.

For the record, I own 5 Mario Party games.  1 N64, 1 Wii, 1 e-Reader and 2 GameCube.  I own 2 GameCube Mario Parties because I bought #5 when it launched and years later, got #4 at K-mart in a bundle with a WaveBird for $15.

Anyone who wants to play Mario Party over and over - sure... buy every single release.  Nothing against it.
Anyone who wants to play Madden every year - go for it.

Games like this are typically a "once a generation" thing for me - simply because they do cover a lot of the same ground (Mario Party-e excluded, of course).  I've nothing against anyone who likes to play the same game or a slightly different version of it - over and over.  It's just not for me.  That's why I own many, many games (Don't asky why I own about 30 different versions of Super Mario Bros. though.)

I'm just glad that Nintendo is trying new things occasionally.  Even if it's something I don't much care for (Wii Fit, for example).

[Louieturkey]

Marty, to put your argument of if a company loses money, they aren't doing it right into perspective, you are basically saying that all three console maker are doing it wrong.  All three lost money in 2011.  Sony and M$ both sited lower sales in their games division as part of the cause of the lost money.

This must mean that nobody is making games that people want (at least not console makers).

[Chozo Ghost]

Regardless of whether the lack of games was the reason Nintendo has been losing money, or if its just due to currency exchange or some mumbo jumbo voodoo economics, the fact of the matter is Nintendo's lineup this year and last year has been paltry to say the least. People aren't going to buy games if they don't exist. What I find unforgivable is there are games like Fatal Frame 4 and Captain Rainbow which DO exist and have existed for quite some time, but NOA refuses to deliver them. NOA would rather give its audience absolutely NOTHING rather than deliver games which already exist and are only waiting for localization. I understand it costs some money to localize games, but sometimes you have to spend money in order to make money. One thing that should be common sense to anyone is that you aren't going to make money if you aren't delivering any sort of product to the market. That's a fact.

[Luigi Dude]

Regardless of whether the lack of games was the reason Nintendo has been losing money, or if its just due to currency exchange or some mumbo jumbo voodoo economics, the fact of the matter is Nintendo's lineup this year and last year has been paltry to say the least. People aren't going to buy games if they don't exist. What I find unforgivable is there are games like Fatal Frame 4 and Captain Rainbow which DO exist and have existed for quite some time, but NOA refuses to deliver them. NOA would rather give its audience absolutely NOTHING rather than deliver games which already exist and are only waiting for localization. I understand it costs some money to localize games, but sometimes you have to spend money in order to make money. One thing that should be common sense to anyone is that you aren't going to make money if you aren't delivering any sort of product to the market. That's a fact.

Fatal Frame 4 and Captain Rainbow weren't released in Europe either so those are terrible examples to use.  Nether game has an English translation anywhere in the world so it's not like Xenoblade and The Last Story which could easily get brought over.  Plus we've been over this a million times but Fatal Frame 4 was planned on being released in America and Europe but the game ended up being a buggy mess which NCL forbit from leaving Japan until Tecmo fixed the bugs but Tecmo refused so it never came.  Did you get that, NOA can't bring Fatal Frame 4 over because NCL is blocking it.

[ShyGuy]

Marty! Hey everyone it's Marty!

[UncleBob]

Who here thinks an English release of Captain Rainbow stateside would outsell Wii Music?

Talk about releasing games "no one" wants.

And this is coming from someone who'd be there at midnight to get Captain Rainbow.

[Chozo Ghost]

Nether game has an English translation anywhere in the world so it's not like Xenoblade and The Last Story which could easily get brought over.

That's a crap excuse, and deep down you know it. I think we had this same argument about Xenoblade and TLS back before they were announced and as I recall you came up with excuses defending NOA for not bringing them over even though the localization was already done courtesy of NOE. So even when there is an English localization you still will defend NOA.

And as for the localizations not already being done by NoE, are you telling me NoA is incapable of doing it themselves? Must NoE hold their hand and do all the work for them? NoA needs to step up to the plate and stop making excuses. They are supposed to be just as capable of doing localizing and NoE, so what's the deal? That's like a kid having another kid do their homework for them.

[ShyGuy]

Why do you want the Wii U to fail Chozo?

[UncleBob]

Because Nintendo doesn't make games he likes anymore.  So, instead of playing games from all the other companies out there that he likes, he wants Nintendo's new venture to fail so that anyone who enjoys the games Nintendo is making now can't enjoy new games.

Basically, it's "If I can't have her, then no one can!" - except instead of her running away from the relationship, he's just unhappy in the relationship and either wants to force her to change or let her die off so he can go find some cheap thrills with the other developers.

[Chozo Ghost]

Obviously Uncle Bob knows more about what I think than I do, so what's the point of me arguing?

[Oblivion]

LOL doesn't this seem familiar.

[Phil]

Obviously Uncle Bob knows more about what I think than I do, so what's the point of me arguing?

Good. Don't argue then. You're coming across as somewhat obnoxious anyway.

[Chozo Ghost]

Obviously Uncle Bob knows more about what I think than I do, so what's the point of me arguing?

Good. Don't argue then. You're coming across as somewhat obnoxious anyway.

I could say the same about you.

[ejamer]

This thread is degenerating rapidly, but I do wish Nintendo would choose to bring out more core games.


In some cases that means doing the localization themselves, in other cases just bringing games over from other regions. Fatal Frame 4, Project Zero 2, and Pandora's Tower are all good examples of games that would appeal to a more mature audience and could sell enough to support a limited release - and even Xenoblade and The Last Story are good examples as Nintendo of America would've sat on both games if not for third parties pushing to have them release.


Some of these games are might have limited appeal or only hit a smaller-than-average market for Nintendo, but there is (arguably) value in supporting and expanding your core audience even if it means taking a short-term loss.  That's not Nintendo's business plan though, and it's hard to fault them for pushing to have million sellers instead of using limited resources on more niche games.

[TJ Spyke]

To be fair, Nintendo had no problems releasing Fatal Frame IV outside of Japan, but only if Tecmo fixed the bugs in the game (which Tecmo refused to do).

[UncleBob]

Obviously Uncle Bob knows more about what I think than I do, so what's the point of me arguing?

That said, I do want the Wii U to fail because it would be a wake up call and it would force them to reconsider their focus and start catering to their core gamers.