Author Topic: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry  (Read 17540 times)

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Offline Kytim89

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Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« on: June 24, 2012, 01:45:49 AM »
There is ever increasing signs that the Japanese gaming industry is declining. With franchises running stale and top tier developers becoming increasingly reliant on western developers to make their IPs remain relevant on the market. Here are a few questions concerning this dilema:
 
  • Why is it declining?
  • Can it be reversed?
  • Most importantly: What is Nintendo's place now and forever more in thier gaming market?
As the Japanese gaming industry continues to decline it will become increasingly reliant on Nintendo to  help keep it afloat. Of course Nintedno is already in this position today, but depending on the severity there will be an unprecendented amount cooperation between Nintendo and other Japanese developers just so that they can stay economical (or atleast in their own market). What I am trying to say is since Nintendo is on the verge of entering the HD arena with the Wii U more Japanese companies will put their games on that system.
 
What does this mean for Sony? Sony is the second juggernaut of Japan's gaming industry, but with their recent financial woes even their own sustainability in the gaming is in jeaprody. Is it too far fetched to assume that even Sony could become reliant on Nintendo for survival as a second party developer (do not condemn me for this)?
 
If Nintendo had not experienced the financial losses that they have incured in the last year or so then I could easily see Nintendo buying out SEGA, then bringing in more second party developers to help make their own IPs both new and old. We already see this currently with Namco Bandai helping with the next Smash Brothers game.
 
 
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Offline Evan_B

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2012, 03:17:21 AM »
While it doesn't surprise me that you made this topic, I agree in some aspects. There's definitely some weird stuff going on. However, I don't think there's as great a decline as you mentioned- but I do think that Japanese developers have had a big struggle with the leap to HD graphics. I think that's kind of because Sony and Microsoft pushed the HD era a little early on them. I mean, with games like Xenoblade and the Last Story, there are japanese developers who are still able to take dated hardware and do great things with it, while most RPGs from the HD era have seemed like small corridors and limited environs- pretty, but still. I think if another company attempts a big graphical leap or something to that effect, a lot of these struggling developers are going to have to fall back on Nintendo so that they can utilize tech that is familiar to them.

I don't know, though. That's one facet of it. There's really been a dip in the quality of recent games, and I think it's because there's been such a focus on westernizing these franchises and taking away what kind of made them stand out in the first place...
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2012, 03:28:11 AM »
Is the size of a Japanese developer team typically smaller than a western dev team?

Offline broodwars

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2012, 04:12:01 AM »
I think the main reasons why the Japanese Game Industry has declined to near-irrelevance are as follows:

Japanese pop culture is severely centered around milking one particular trend that manages to become widely popular, and their entertainment industry is extremely slow to adapt to change.  As the rest of the world began to adopt new gaming conventions and styles of play near the end of the last console generation, the Japanese have gone gradually insular focusing on the core otaku still buying games with the styles and mechanics of the games they made in the PS1 and PS2 eras.  I think a lot of Japanese companies are still reeling right now from the realization that what made them successful in previous console generations is no longer relevant (even increasingly within Japan as the otaku market continues to shrink), and they don't know how to adapt to new paradigms.  They also have a tendency these days to make games that appeal to specific Japanese fetishes that aren't socially acceptable outside Japan, such as their current obsession with the dying moe fad.

Meanwhile, Western companies have continually innovated and incorporated new ideas and new ways at looking at games within their products.  Unfortunately, Japanese companies don't seem to understand the reasons why certain features that have become prominent in Western games achieved their popularity.  Seeing a trend they could potentially capitalize on, we've seen Japanese companies try to make "western-friendly games", and they've largely failed due to that lack of understanding.

Take for instance Dragon's Dogma, a recent JRPG from Capcom.  In that game's case, Capcom looked at Western Role-Playing Games, and apparently determined that the key to their success was large open worlds with a heavy emphasis on travel and exploration.  The problem is that they didn't understand that the key to the Open World design isn't just that the world is big and that there's places to go, but that exploring the world and going to these places is meaningful.  You don't climb that mountain just for the sake of climbing that mountain.  You climb it because you believe there could be something worth finding atop that mountain.  And while journeying through these open worlds can be enjoyable, our time is valuable so we need some sort of easy fast travel system to cut down on tedium.  Capcom didn't understand this, so Dragon's Dogma has a huge, largely empty world with an extremely restrictive fast travel system.  They got the surface level concept right, but didn't understand the deeper philosophies that govern it so they botched the execution.

And there are any number of games where I've seen similar problems.  I also saw something similar with Gravity Rush on the Vita, which also has a large open world to explore not unlike a Western game like Crackdown, but the world is largely empty with extremely basic exploration.  Final Fantasy XIII-2 on the PS3 seems to want to steal the dialogue wheel from any given Bioware RPG, but the player has no meaningful agency within these dialogue wheels and they're too basic so it's pretty meaningless.  For Japanese companies to find relevance in modern gaming, they need to stop designing around what was popular 10-15 years ago and adapt to how game design has evolved.  That means understanding trends beyond surface level analysis.

And that doesn't mean that the Japanese have to essentially make Western games.  But they do need to understand Western gaming so they can then make the necessary adjustments to make their games relevant while also maintaining their own unique flavor.  Xenoblade shows how this possible, as does the Last Story from all accounts.  Those games have adopted very Western design sensibilities, and yet I think Xenoblade at least has a very distinctive Japanese feel to it in terms of the story and atmosphere.  I think Platinum's Vanquish is a good example of this as well, as it has a very Japanese kinetic feeling to it totally unique from your standard Western 3rd person shooter.  Sega combined Japanese storytelling with turn-based strategy and 3rd person shooting to create something totally unique and revolutionary in Valkyria Chronicles (and then they turned around and clung to Japanese High School cliches for the first PSP sequel, which was nowhere near as well-received outside Japan).

Also, in the case of Japanese Role-Playing Games specifically, so many companies seem stuck in PlayStation 1 era scenario and character design sensibilities that have become tiring cliches at this point, cliches that desperately need to be retired by now.

I've also read that (due to how their development teams are structured) apparently the Japanese game production process is extremely inefficient compared to typical Western developers, leading to fewer quality products over a longer period of time.  If I remember correctly it has something to do with hierarchy in management.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 04:33:10 AM by broodwars »
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Offline Kairon

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2012, 07:00:31 AM »
I'm no expert on this topic but I have some opinions on it that I think are moderately informed:

1. Japanese companies are feeling the hurt from increased budgets for HD games, and possible low sales numbers for said games. This is not unlike the dilemma many/all mid-tier independent developers face today even if they're not Japanese: expectations for HD gaming implies larger budgets, but fewer games are selling enough to justify those large budgets.

2. The Japanese console market never consolidated under one console dramatically. Whereas before the PS2 sold more than 20 million units in the market, now the Wii is at like 14 million units and the PS3 7 million units (not sure of my numbers right now). This is a complicating factor in getting their games out to a wide domestic base. In contrast, the DS seems like the true successor to the PS2 in that market with 20+ million units moved there, and with many JRPGs of this generation actually going to handhelds instead of consoles.

3. There could be a lack of new "blood" in the Japanese gaming industry. This has been remarked on several times in the past years by several prominent developers. The Japanese industry may be "gentrifying", and as a result, there's less new ideas and innovations being pushed into it by newcomers, which naturally will affect the games that are created and the consumers being drawn to start or continue playing videogames.

Can it be reversed? I don't know. I want to think so. Nintendo thinks it can, and has been talking about the declining Japanese industry and attempting to rejuvenate it at least as far back as the Revolution. There's a reason Iwata's talked so much about "audience expansion" in the past couple years, I think he's been looking at Japan and fearing the gaming malaise over there will start manifesting in the US and Europe.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2012, 09:56:31 AM »
One reason why the Japanese gaming industry may be declining is because Japan's overall population is in decline. The birth rate over there is lower than what is necessary to keep the population steady, so it is in decline just like in most industrialized countries. But unlike most industrialized countries Japan isn't making up for that deficit via immigration.

The answer is Japan either needs to produce more children or accept more immigrants. Otherwise the population will continue to decline, and the gaming industry over there will decline along with it.
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Offline S-U-P-E-R

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2012, 10:54:27 AM »
I agree a with a lot of what the above posters said, but I think a lot of the problems mentioned are missing the big picture.
 
The method and culture of large Japanese companies are not condusive to good nor creative game design.
 
In the 80s and 90s, video games were a much newer idea, and the kind of people that worked on those games were closer to crazy hippies than overworked salarymen. The games were pretty amazing. Now, the companies are much bigger and don't want to take any risks, what with the perpetually bad economy. So they're just putting out safe boring garbage, and now even that isn't working out and they don't know what to do. The way a lot of them are being managed now is just... bleough. Check out all the people at Capcom who have left or had a coronary or whatever. Look at the awful stuff that Square-Enix has put out over the last couple years. Look at whatever company and look at them lose money on every single decision they make!
 
I keep thinking of the good, popular games that Capcom has put out over the last few years, and the people inside the company had to fight nonstop against management to even be allowed to work on them. Lost Planet, SF4, maybe some others. Megaman Legends 3, lol.
 
I'd say look to the smaller developers but I'm pretty sure they're having a hard time even existing right now. :[

Offline AnGer

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2012, 11:01:09 AM »
As far as the idea of "westernized" games made by japanese companies goes, I am watching that trend with some sort of disdain.


On the one hand, there are games with that concept in mind that just work. Take Demon's/Dark Souls, Dragon's Dogma or Xenoblade. Then on the other side there's Resident Evil – a game where the idea changed from a survival horror game to some sort of mixture between Uncharted and Call of Duty: Lots of cutscenes, very linear, many foes that you have to take down and of course the obnoxious QTE.


I agree on the part where they say there's a need for variation, a need for more dynamic gameplay. But then again, I love japanese games for what they are, how they are played and yes, even for the art design. The day that japanese gaming companies will only make games that try to appeal to a western audience or stop making games altogether will be the day I will consider gaming to be dead.

Offline S-U-P-E-R

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2012, 11:21:02 AM »
Also, please let the RPG genre die, it is bad

Offline ThePerm

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2012, 12:10:04 PM »
more specifically let the random battle turned based emo hair rpg genre die
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Offline shingi_70

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2012, 12:16:17 PM »
Isnt it already dead. I granted havent played that many rpgs this gen but the ones I have had a lack of emo. Well expect anything witb that jobber hope.
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Offline SixthAngel

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2012, 01:11:50 PM »
Once again everyone is extremely focused on console gaming.

Japanese consumers like handhelds and the developers followed.  The biggest Japanese games like Dragon Quest were all there and they sold very well.  The DS has been selling tons of games in Japan and from my understanding sold many more kinds of "non-games" than the U.S. that broadened the market.  The DS was the best selling gaming device ever in Japan and the 3DS is currently selling much more than it did at this point in time.  Western "hardcore" gamers and game-makers are myopically focuses on consoles although they finally noticed mobile gaming with the iphone.

"As the Japanese gaming industry continues to decline it will become increasingly reliant on Nintendo to  help keep it afloat."

Last gen the entire gaming industry relied on Nintendo to keep it afloat since most western studios were leaking money like a sieve while Nintendo's profits  and market share made it look good as a whole.

Offline Evan_B

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2012, 01:26:30 PM »
See, Japanese gaming shouldn't have to Westernize because its fundamentals are what make it such an enjoyable genre. The unique storytelling, visuals and gameplay are core to what makes them good, and sometime they don't even HAVE good storytelling or visuals. The main idea is that gameplay should not be sacrificed for Western state-of-mind. Some people LIKE Japanese games for what they are- and maybe some of these companies need to realize that they have to downscale in order to continue to bring the sense of individuality and innovation that their past titles possessed.

A lot of people still think that a Link to the Past or Final Fantasy VI are the best games of their kind. These games were not groundbreaking in graphical style, they were created by teams who understood their hardware and exploited it to the max, and created great things. I think it's now a matter of the Japanese game market not being accustomed to the hardware that they're creating games on, because graphics are something that's improved pretty exponentially recently (though in many ways, it's not that great/it will plateau eventually).
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Offline shingi_70

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2012, 01:44:44 PM »
Once again everyone is extremely focused on console gaming.

Japanese consumers like handhelds and the developers followed.  The biggest Japanese games like Dragon Quest were all there and they sold very well.  The DS has been selling tons of games in Japan and from my understanding sold many more kinds of "non-games" than the U.S. that broadened the market.  The DS was the best selling gaming device ever in Japan and the 3DS is currently selling much more than it did at this point in time.  Western "hardcore" gamers and game-makers are myopically focuses on consoles although they finally noticed mobile gaming with the iphone.

"As the Japanese gaming industry continues to decline it will become increasingly reliant on Nintendo to  help keep it afloat."

Last gen the entire gaming industry relied on Nintendo to keep it afloat since most western studios were leaking money like a sieve while Nintendo's profits  and market share made it look good as a whole.

Huh last gen nearly killed nintendo and mlst western devs were still PC focused. If your talking current gen I would still disagree sonce most of million dollar making third party gsmes have been on xbox/PS3 and Wii sales fell off a cliff.
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2012, 02:29:06 PM »
So what do Japanese people do to occupy their time nowadays? iPhones and Reality TV?

Offline S-U-P-E-R

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2012, 05:49:23 PM »
Monster Hunter and working themselves to death

Offline nickmitch

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2012, 05:52:46 PM »
Also, please let the RPG genre die, it is bad

Not as bad a fighting games. OHSNAPIJUSTWENTTHERE!
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2012, 06:12:24 PM »
What are they working themselves to death producing? Hasn't Japan outsourced a major portion of their manufacturing to China?

Offline SixthAngel

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2012, 08:34:56 PM »
Huh last gen nearly killed nintendo and mlst western devs were still PC focused. If your talking current gen I would still disagree sonce most of million dollar making third party games have been on xbox/PS3 and Wii sales fell off a cliff.

I was using last gen because I focused on the DS for most of what I talked about and Wii U is almost out.

Nintendo did hold up the entire gaming industry with the Wii.  They declined recently but their presence and games on both the DS and the Wii were basically the only reason we saw actual growth in the video game market.

Offline S-U-P-E-R

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2012, 08:39:24 PM »
Paperwork and bad videogames!

As I understand it, project ideas in Japanese companies usually either come from the top, or have to be approved by every level up to the top in an excrutiating process that often leads to rejection. Certain game companies should have a closer look at this process.

Or, more simply, let the designers make what they want to make.

Offline shingi_70

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2012, 10:21:43 PM »
Huh last gen nearly killed nintendo and mlst western devs were still PC focused. If your talking current gen I would still disagree sonce most of million dollar making third party games have been on xbox/PS3 and Wii sales fell off a cliff.

I was using last gen because I focused on the DS for most of what I talked about and Wii U is almost out.

Nintendo did hold up the entire gaming industry with the Wii.  They declined recently but their presence and games on both the DS and the Wii were basically the only reason we saw actual growth in the video game market.

I agree with you its just last gen is sill PXcube on the console side.


There is a hige difference in growth  sustainability though. Going by last gen to this ge  ln nintendo didnt hold it up but grew rthr market. The actually market would have probably staed the same as last gen with growth around 08 whe  microspft would have started the whole "lol games" thing.
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Offline SixthAngel

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2012, 11:23:35 PM »
There is a hige difference in growth  sustainability though. Going by last gen to this ge  ln nintendo didnt hold it up but grew rthr market. The actually market would have probably staed the same as last gen with growth around 08 whe  microspft would have started the whole "lol games" thing.

We can't say for sure whether that is true but regardless no growth in an industry with absolutely skyrocketing costs is actually a huge decline.  One of the reasons a lot of Japanese games are on handhelds instead of consoles or are in trouble (declining) in the console space isn't because of declining sales, but increasing cost.

Offline Mannypon

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2012, 11:44:06 PM »

Take for instance Dragon's Dogma, a recent JRPG from Capcom.  In that game's case, Capcom looked at Western Role-Playing Games, and apparently determined that the key to their success was large open worlds with a heavy emphasis on travel and exploration.  The problem is that they didn't understand that the key to the Open World design isn't just that the world is big and that there's places to go, but that exploring the world and going to these places is meaningful.  You don't climb that mountain just for the sake of climbing that mountain.  You climb it because you believe there could be something worth finding atop that mountain.  And while journeying through these open worlds can be enjoyable, our time is valuable so we need some sort of easy fast travel system to cut down on tedium.  Capcom didn't understand this, so Dragon's Dogma has a huge, largely empty world with an extremely restrictive fast travel system.  They got the surface level concept right, but didn't understand the deeper philosophies that govern it so they botched the execution.


I'll have to disagree with this statement here, I believe the choices made for Dragon's Dogma were deliberate.  I think they were made as to give traversing long distances of land a sense of danger forcing you to come prepared and seek shelter, particularly at night.  I liked the approach as I thought it was different and it made me feel as if I was really travelling long distances.  The problem I believe the game had was that eventually you grew to become too strong and then you lost that sense of danger as there was very little left that could be taken as a threat.  I think they were trying to turn your focus towards not so much the end result of your quests but more so the journey towards it.  The introduction of fast travel in large rpgs is great (as I've used it plenty of times in Skyrim but I try to keep it to a minimum)  but eventually it resorts to a complete fetch quest with very little in between.  You hit a point where you receive a quest, look at your map, teleport to the nearest location, finish the quest, then teleport back for your reward.  You never get the feeling as if your working towards something or your struggling to accomplish your goals.  A sh*tty example would be if in Lord of the Rings, the characters used a teleport stone right to their destination, destroyed the ring then teleported back home.  They, and you the viewer, missed out on all that could've taken place in between, the journey so to speak.  Anyway, enough of my rant, this is best left for another thread lol.

Also, am I the only one here he still enjoys a good old  fashioned JRPG with turn based battles? lol  I feel as if I'm in such a minority now.  I understand everyone's desire for all the emo characters to end as they get old real fast but turn based fighting?  That's a particular gameplay style that some people still enjoy.  Its like wishing for arcade racers to be put to death because you enjoy strictly sims.  There is a particular charm to the grind of turn based fighting.  All that really needs to be controlled is their frequency as I know too many in any given moment can really test your patience. 

Anyways, again, let me try and contribute to the actual topic on hand.  I think a few of you have already pointed out a few of the things I believe are causing the downfall of the Japanese gaming industry.  I'll like to make a quick mention though that I don't think the Japanese game industry is on a downfall though but more so a transition to a completely different market compared to the west, one geared towards lower budget games on handhelds.  The shift to handheld gaming is the complete opposite to the west's shift towards uber HD triple budget games.  Japanese homes with only one TV and their typical small living areas have resulted in the handheld approach which in turn, contributed to the smaller development budgets.  I look at the western gaming industry as big Hollywood where big budget releases are what bring the money in, whereas Japan is trying to be your straight to DVD market where you could find some equally good stories and experiences, albet quirky at times, just at a much lower budget with far less special affects. 

I think the WiiU could bring about a resurgence of the console scene in Japan because it takes the portable approach to the home/console scene.  You no longer have to rely on having access to the TV to play your games so before when kids had no other choice but to play their handhelds, now they can play their console on a semi handheld controller. 


EDIT:  Great topic and introductory post BTW Kytim89.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 11:51:45 PM by Mannypon »

Offline Kytim89

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2012, 12:17:34 AM »
My whole thesis of this topic centered around the idea of Nintendo essentially embodying the Japanese game industry. They already do this in a way right now, but it will be mostly for the survival of third party developers. For example, a Great White Shark has these little fish on it called "Remoras." What they do is help keep the shark clean, and as a reward for it services it gets to eat part of the Shark's kill. I see Japanese developers like Konami, Capcom, SEGA, Tecmo Koie, Square-Enix, and many others, as being remoras to Nintendo's Great White Shark.
 
What about Sony? What are the long term trends does the forum see for Sony? In my worst case scenario Sony files for chapter 11 and leaves the home console market. They can not continue to hemorrhage money the way theyr are currently doing. The global depression will weed them out from the industry.
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Offline Mannypon

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Re: Nintendo and the Decline of the Japanese Gaming Industry
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2012, 12:40:57 AM »
If that were to happen to Sony, I can only imagine the bidding wars that would erupt for some of their 2nd party developers (2nd parties are owned by their respective companies right?)  EA, Microsoft, and a few other large publishers will be all over them.  Either that or they will simply go third party where I would imagine they could make more money pumping out multi-plat releases. 


If Sony were wise, I think they should just follow Nintendo's approach and not go bleeding edge with their technology for the PS4.  They need to be moderate and fall within range of the WiiU.  That'll somewhat create a standard for the next gen and leave MS out on an island if they happen to go balls to the walls, money don't matter, let it bleed for a couple of years approach to their xbox720.  They'll then become the ps3 of the nextgen. all power and very little to show for it.  Also, Sony needs to just back out of the handhelf market as that is doing nothing for them.  Even MS with their endless supply of cash hasn't even tried to take Nintendo on there.  That's the only market where top end specs truly don't amount to top sales.


One thing is for sure though, Sony can't keep participating in this dick measuring contest they started with MS.  They don't have the money to burn like MS does.