Author Topic: Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...  (Read 9729 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline nemo_83

  • Dream Master
  • Score: -1
    • View Profile

MS and Sony claim HD is the entry fee for next gen; they believe pixel numbers are more important than polygon numbers and lighting effects.  Nintendo seems confident that "graphics" have hit a ceiling.  They believe HD is not the answer, but do they also believe that raw graphics are not important either?  What if their system not only doesn't support HD but can't even match the other console's in SD?  I would hope they are dodging HD to either have better raw effects or to have 3D.  

The following is my evidence in favor of polygon numbers (shape), color, transparency effects, and lighting over pixel numbers and HD mapping techniques.  



Nintendo refuses to show pics or vids of graphics of Revolution games because, they claim, the last secret (some technology we are still in the dark on that is suppossed to be as revolutionary as the controller) will affect how the importance of the graphics is judged by the industry.  Translation, the raw graphical effects on 360 underwhelmed a lot of people, the Revolution may underwhelm people, but how the Revolution graphics are viewed will make the difference.  


Idealy in my opinion the console would launch with Metroid, it would be online, have three times the polygons of characters in MP2 or RE4, three times the lighting effects of Doon3 on Xbox, three times the surface effects of the Doom engine, three times the amount of AI in Halo, and three times the open areas of Zelda TP.  

 
Life is like a hurricane-- here in Duckburg

Offline BlkPaladin

  • Score: 9
    • View Profile
    • Minkmultimedia
RE: Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2006, 12:08:43 AM »
If you remember Nintendo patented a way to view games a while ago and that may be a part of it. But it's all conjecture until then. I doubt it will be a new technology but a technique that uses what is already there, to make watching the game more natural and immersive. (The patant was a technique that would allow the player to take in more of the surroundings. So in theory the definition of the textures will matter less because the player is not fixed to a spot on the screen.
Stupidity is lost on my. Then again I'm almost always lost.

Offline nemo_83

  • Dream Master
  • Score: -1
    • View Profile
RE:Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2006, 12:18:50 AM »


Looks like the Kart is coming out of the screen. from the recent leak
Life is like a hurricane-- here in Duckburg

Offline DrZoidberg

  • Secreted by the Internet Bee
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE: Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2006, 02:07:27 AM »
Didn't I ban you, I thought I banned you. Do you ever make sense.
OUT OF DATE.

Offline KDR_11k

  • boring person
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
RE: Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2006, 03:25:46 AM »
Apparently not. I don't get what he's trying to say, either.

Offline Darkheart

  • Darkheart
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE:Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2006, 06:02:45 AM »
Those blueprints show the screens in 2 screen clusters, my thoughts is this had to do with mario kart DS look at the spacing.

Offline KDR_11k

  • boring person
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
RE: Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2006, 06:16:52 AM »
Probably about perspectivic correction with two screens...

Offline pudu

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE:Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2006, 06:26:26 AM »
I might be wrong but those look like blueprints to how they did the ending in Mario Kart DS.  I believe the views match up.  Nemo I don't think that they're not going to even up their graphics on SD.  I firmly believe that the graphics will look great, even if they don't look as good as the competition.  Take a PC video card that is more mainstreem price (but still very powerful) and match it up with an upper midrange CPU (still very cost effective).  Take into account both are custom made just for gaming.  Now utilize these to display on a SD TV and see how much you can push...  The potential is there to push some very pretty games.  With the other consoles part of their increased power will be going simply to displaying them at higher resolutions, while with the Rev. they will be using 100% of the added power for new fx, more polys, and the like.

Offline trip1eX

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE:Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2006, 06:37:58 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: nemo_83


Nintendo refuses to show pics or vids of graphics of Revolution games because, they claim, the last secret (some technology we are still in the dark on that is suppossed to be as revolutionary as the controller) will affect how the importance of the graphics is judged by the industry.  


That's not true.  Nintendo doesn't claim their last secret will how affect how important graphics are.  They have merely said there is another secret to the Revolution.

Here's why NIntendo stayed at 480p.

1.  No one has hdtv yet.  
2.  Many 480p sets look just as good as hi-def TVs.
3.  Viewing distance and screen size greatly affect whether you'll even notice the difference between 720p and 480p.
4.  IT's cheaper.

1.  The most optimistic estimates have 25% of households with an hdtv by the end of the year.  Still not all those households are going to be gaming households.  Consdering most households have multiple TVs, the chances that you're going to be gaming on an hdtv even if you have one are even slimmer than the chances of your household having one.

2.  NOw this isn't something that's in the conventional wisdom.  But many 480p sets have better color and contrast and sharpness than the crappier true hi-def sets.  This tho goes hand in hand with #3.  Consumer Reports recently said they'd take the best EDTV over the lesser rated hdtvs.

3.  Estimates that I've read say you need a 68" screen from 9' away to make out all the details in 720p.  What am I saying?  The farther you sit away from the screen and the smaller the screen is, the greater the chances are that hi-def won't look that much better.  If you sit 9' feet away and have a small TV then you'll be hard pressed to tell the difference between 720p and 480p.  IT's one reason consoles don't look that bad at 480p while 480p on my pc monitor looks like crap.  You're generally farher away from a TV.  With hdtv you have to be even closer to get the full benefit.

4.  Obviously it costs less if you don't have to render 4x as many pixels.  And you don't force folks to go out and buy brand new televisions to fully experience your console.  


I think on top of this Nintendo knows how to design for 480p.  They know their medium.  They know how to make 480i/p look good.  If you play WindWaker or Metroid Prime or Mario Sunshine those games look good.  Are any of those games photo-realistic?  No.  But they look good.  And I play them in 480i.  And they still look good.  OTher companies don't know how to make good looking 480i/p games.  They cram too much detail into the games and it looks like a muddy mess.  Sometimes less is more.  Certainly less is more fps.

I think 480i/p will shine with thru with flying colors.  480p will still look pretty good on hdtvs.  If you're sitting back far and have a smaller than ideal TV then you'll be hard pressed to notice the difference.  

Offline pudu

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE:Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2006, 06:57:39 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: trip1eX
Sometimes less is more.  Certainly less is more fps.



I agree with what you've said trip1eX...and I especially like what you said here, well put.  

Offline Smash_Brother

  • Let me show you my poké-balls
  • Score: 3
    • View Profile
RE: Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2006, 10:59:05 AM »
The 360 HD screens that the kiosks are set up with make the graphics look awful, at least for some games.

HD wasn't meant to be viewed from that short of range.
"OK, first we need someone to complain about something trivial. Golden or S_B should do. Then we get someone to defend the game, like Bill or Mashiro. Finally add some Unclebob or Pro666 randomness and the thread should go to hell right away." -Pap64

Offline Artimus

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE: Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2006, 12:31:15 PM »
Pudu (Bantha pudu?) is correct, that blueprint is a mapping of the MKDS victory sequence. It's a shot by shot match.  

Offline pudu

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE:Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2006, 12:49:21 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Artimus
Pudu (Bantha pudu?) is correct, that blueprint is a mapping of the MKDS victory sequence. It's a shot by shot match.


Nah it's just pudu.  Thanks for the conformation on that MK: DS slide, I was about to check myself.  

Offline nemo_83

  • Dream Master
  • Score: -1
    • View Profile
RE:Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2006, 01:37:39 PM »
Reading what seems like dozens of quotes from Nintendo's people over the past few months on Revolution I have come to the conclusion that that last secret is the reason they havn't shown the graphics.  Take from that what you will.  I don't believe that means a secret graphical technique; I think it has to do with how games are displayed.
Life is like a hurricane-- here in Duckburg

Offline pudu

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE:Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2006, 01:45:42 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: nemo_83
Reading what seems like dozens of quotes from Nintendo's people over the past few months on Revolution I have come to the conclusion that that last secret is the reason they havn't shown the graphics.  Take from that what you will.  I don't believe that means a secret graphical technique; I think it has to do with how games are displayed.


Actually you have a pretty good point here.  Back in 2001 the only graphics they showed were some demonstations at the Space World that came before it.  This time around they have basically showed nothing...  Either they are trying to prove their point about how tech specs aren't there primary concern (while also possibly surprising us in the end with the graphical capabilities of the Rev) or they are hiding something about, like Nemo said, how the games are displayed.  Or...they are just being Nintendo and preparing us for the best E3 ever and that's as far as we should look into it.

Offline Bill Aurion

  • NWR Forum Loli
  • Score: 34
    • View Profile
RE: Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2006, 02:03:03 PM »
I've been saying this since the Revmote was revealed, but okay...  
~Former Resident Zelda Aficionado and Nintendo Fan~

Offline Smash_Brother

  • Let me show you my poké-balls
  • Score: 3
    • View Profile
RE:Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2006, 02:59:37 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
I've been saying this since the Revmote was revealed, but okay...


THAT'S where I heard it...

I think I agree (and I definitely hope you're right). Nintendo could use any and every edge that their new tech will provide them in the upcoming console war. Since people are nature graphic-whores, something new and ambitious with the graphics could make a great deal of difference when it comes to the Rev's broad appeal.
"OK, first we need someone to complain about something trivial. Golden or S_B should do. Then we get someone to defend the game, like Bill or Mashiro. Finally add some Unclebob or Pro666 randomness and the thread should go to hell right away." -Pap64

Offline antman100

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE:Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2006, 03:29:36 PM »
I agree with number 4 on the list.  It is definitely cheaper.  Hopefully, the Revo will debut with one RevMote and shell for less than $150.

If Nintendo is never going to utilize HiDef in the future, then they are probably better off simply not including it.  And no, I'm not bitter about the fact that there are a couple plastic covers on the bottom of my GC that have never come off.

Offline Kairon

  • T_T
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: 48
    • View Profile
RE: Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2006, 04:19:33 PM »
I wonder antman100, are you bitter about the expansion slot on the bottom of the NES that never came off (in the US?).

~Carmine M. Red
Just playin'!
Carmine Red, Associate Editor

A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline Smash_Brother

  • Let me show you my poké-balls
  • Score: 3
    • View Profile
RE: Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2006, 04:38:38 PM »
It's always that way with consoles. Genesis had ports like that, too.
"OK, first we need someone to complain about something trivial. Golden or S_B should do. Then we get someone to defend the game, like Bill or Mashiro. Finally add some Unclebob or Pro666 randomness and the thread should go to hell right away." -Pap64

Offline Bill Aurion

  • NWR Forum Loli
  • Score: 34
    • View Profile
RE: Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2006, 05:59:41 PM »
But those were used...poorly...(Haha, Sega CD... =\)
~Former Resident Zelda Aficionado and Nintendo Fan~

Offline nemo_83

  • Dream Master
  • Score: -1
    • View Profile
RE:Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2006, 07:31:37 PM »
I'm getting the absolute feeling that the last BIG secret will affect how you will think about the graphics whether they are technically stunning or not (most likely modestly not), the way in which they are displayed is going to be more significant than HD at a lower cost to the consumer and the developer who will not have to develop the game in both SD and HD.  

How many people would have guessed the first handheld after GBA would feature two screens.  
Life is like a hurricane-- here in Duckburg

Offline trip1eX

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE:Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2006, 07:56:18 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: nemo_83
Reading what seems like dozens of quotes from Nintendo's people over the past few months on Revolution I have come to the conclusion that that last secret is the reason they havn't shown the graphics.  Take from that what you will.  I don't believe that means a secret graphical technique; I think it has to do with how games are displayed.


Yeah it's a reasonable assumption.  I just was clarifying that they actually haven't said anything officially.

Personally I don't think it's about the way the games look.  I just don't think there is any alien technology out there that could suddenly make games look better on regular TVs.  

I don't think 3d is possible without a special monitor or glasses.  And I don't think glasses are the answer for the mass market.

They could track the motion of the controller and let you aim off screen using sound cues or something.  But that's pretty lame too.

I don't think the Revolution will beam images on your walls either.  Too much setup involved their for the average consumer.  Not too mention the  REv is just too small.

I don't think the secret is a microphone in the controller.  Certainly that would be possible, but I don't know why they would save that for last.  Voice control has been done in a few games on the xbox and ps2.

My feeling now is it has something to do with alternative content and user-made content and the sharing of such content.  But that's pretty vague ain't it?  What if you could create your own character to use in any game you wanted to across the board?  Maybe you can go in and change the monsters around etc.   Ok i'm just brainstorming here.  

Maybe it will have wireless video streaming to the TV.  And the ability to stream to more than one TV at a time.  Of course I can't believe the mass market is ready for this and I'm not sure games could be streamed fast enough to the television yet.

Maybe they'll be able to mix in a camera for backgrounds in games.  Maybe they'll have some technique to mix in video quality footage.  HOnestly tho I think the REv will just display games at 480p close to what the others can do at 480p.

I think the small and quiet part tho is because it will be less powerful and because it will help it remain portable and easy to transport and small for Japanese homes.  And quieter will be a nice contrast to the loud ps3 and 360.


 

Offline trip1eX

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE:Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2006, 08:02:55 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
The 360 HD screens that the kiosks are set up with make the graphics look awful, at least for some games.

HD wasn't meant to be viewed from that short of range.


Well there's some truth there.  Obviously hdtv like regular tv has its limits for close up viewing.  However a hdtv would need to be viewed at a closer range than a same-sized regular Tv.  

And look at pc monitors.  I run my monitor at 1024x768.  It's 19" and I sit a foot away from it.  The picture is purdy.

Those kiosk monitors are Samsung lcds.  LCDs still can't display true color.  They still tend to not do that great on distinguishing shades of black.  And the viewing angle on them is generally poor which means you need to be perfectly centered in front of them.  NOt to mention the background lighting etc at those kiosks probably doesn't help.  

Still most of them looked decent.  Altho  I had to doublecheck during xmas that a particular game was indeed an xbox game.  It was on a similar lcd and from a distance it looked fairly sharp.  

Offline nemo_83

  • Dream Master
  • Score: -1
    • View Profile
RE:Considering Nintendo's emphasis on making their console small and quiet...
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2006, 10:10:49 PM »
Does small and quiet matter at all to American gamers as much as graphics?  

Well, if they aimed Revolution at a $100-150 price I would have to say a 3D display perpheral would be more likely as they could sell the system with the device possibly for less than the PS3 (which doesn't come with an HD screen).  

Otherwise they would be aiming the Revolution to be a system owned multiple times by the same customers (equals lower attach rate for software) with one in the bedroom and one in the living room as the system will be pushed like a portable with the wifi connecting consoles and TVs in seperate rooms for multiplayer.  One system can only support so many remotes, but if Nintendo makes the system cheap enough they figure people could buy multiple consoles.
Life is like a hurricane-- here in Duckburg