Topic: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)

[oohhboy]

Is it so hard to think that the sister and daughter of two psionic wielding people would also have psionic powers?

It's not that, it's there is nothing in the movies to support Leia having force abilities or on that scale. There is an expectation yes for us, but if you never viewed the OT you don't even have that wisp, it's not there. To others it would be an old lady suddenly flying around in space.

[Adrock]

It's not that, it's there is nothing in the movies to support Leia having force abilities or on that scale. There is an expectation yes for us, but if you never viewed the OT you don't even have that wisp, it's not there. To others it would be an old lady suddenly flying around in space.

Leia senses Han’s death in The Force Awakens. The Force has always been used as a plot coupon/get-out-of-jail-free card. I don’t see how it’s defensible in the original trilogy yet indefensible in the sequel trilogy. You’re grinding an ax at Leia using the Force to not die in an explosion in the same universe Obi-Wan used said power to become a ghost because the plot needed him to tell Luke to go to Dagobah. What set that up? The one vague “If you strike me down” line?

In Infinity War, I never thought twice about Thor surviving the explosion, but I wondered how he was able to breathe in space until the Guardians of the Galaxy found him. Not enough to ruin the scene let alone movie, but I thought about it. I can suspend disbelief when it’s established that certain rules don’t apply. A god can get punched by a giant green rage monster so sure, he can survive an explosion. At the same time, we’ve seen him breathe before. That made me pause because it was not established that Thor doesn’t need air or can go long periods without air. Even a half-celestial like Star-Lord can’t breathe in space. Still, it’s small enough that I got past it.

[ThePerm]

I would have just killed her off then. She didn't do anything useful for the remainder of the movie, but then again nobody did.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Well.... I find it weird that they went out of their way to save the character of the actress that died, and then killed off the character of the actor that is still alive. But whatever... I don't follow SW and honestly don't really care about anything that goes on in the movies.

[oohhboy]

It wasn't an get out of jail free card in OT. It had reasonable limits, it's a mystical element but the people are fundamentally no stronger than you or I. The force doesn't make them demi-gods, that wasn't the premise. Even lifting rocks in a training situation took a lot of effort. The force in OT was an extra kick for the action. In RotJ the force was in play but it was fundamentally two guys going at it with swords and won through an emotional appeal rather than a force of arms.

Obi Wan informing Luke isn't remotely on the same scale as surviving an explosion that shredded the bridge and breathing vacuum. Luke wasn't even sure what he saw was real and nor did we until Luke did. Did Luke or anyone else ever get in situation where everyone would agree that yes, they are dead, we even have a corpse only for the movie to go "Nope". Even if it was Luke on the bridge I would cry foul all the same as I wouldn't expect him to survive that.

The set up for Force ghost was Obi Wan being a master of the Force, who as powerful as he is still couldn't cheat death, disappearing leaving no body. He was a ghost that appeared only to Luke and Yoda. It was still mystical in nature. He didn't show up later and cut down Vadar. He wasn't more powerful after he died. TLJ ruined that with Yoda calling lightning.

Marvel movies are fundamentally different with very different expectations and are allowed looser restrictions. Plus Marvel are a lot more competent film makers who stuck the landing. As for Star Lord no one really knew he was half anything until the end of GtG. He for all intents and purposes a human, no one expects him to breath in space.

[ThePerm]

If 30 years had passed and Luke could pick up an X-wing. I imagine he'd be able to pick up an AT-AT with ease and throw it around. But that wasn't in the movie. Which is too bad.

Also, what if force ghosts are a trick? Who said Obi wan died? What if de-aging was a power?

[nickmitch]

Back to the MCU discussion.  I thought Dr. Strange's use of the time stone made sense.  He can't do to Thanos what he did to Dormammu because Dormammu lived in a pocket dimension without time, so Dr. Strange could annoy him into submission.

[ThePerm]

Also, just because we all could come up with a better plan than Dr Strange doesn't mean he would. We live in a super universe of thinkers and ponderers.

[Adrock]

Well.... I find it weird that they went out of their way to save the character of the actress that died, and then killed off the character of the actor that is still alive. But whatever... I don't follow SW and honestly don't really care about anything that goes on in the movies.

Carrie Fisher died after The Last Jedi finished filming. The plan was for Leia to guide the younger generation in Episode IX (similar to the way Han and Luke do in The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi respectively) which obviously can’t happen now. I’m not really that attached to this branch of the discussion. oohhboy clearly doesn’t like the new Star Wars films which is fine. No one is trying to convince him otherwise, but no one (here anyway) seems to agree with what he’s pushing either. I made the mistake of addressing that pot shot about Leia earlier. My bad.

Back to the MCU discussion.  I thought Dr. Strange's use of the time stone made sense.  He can't do to Thanos what he did to Dormammu because Dormammu lived in a pocket dimension without time, so Dr. Strange could annoy him into submission.

If there’s no time in the Dark Dimension, how was Dr. Strange able to use the Time Stone? I don’t mean that as a rhetorical question. Without time, I feel like that stone wouldn’t have much use there. Or maybe the implication is that the Time Stone is even more powerful there because it has no limits without the existence of time?

[BlackNMild2k1]

Back to the MCU discussion.  I thought Dr. Strange's use of the time stone made sense.  He can't do to Thanos what he did to Dormammu because Dormammu lived in a pocket dimension without time, so Dr. Strange could annoy him into submission.

If there’s no time in the Dark Dimension, how was Dr. Strange able to use the Time Stone? I don’t mean that as a rhetorical question. Without time, I feel like that stone wouldn’t have much use there. Or maybe the implication is that the Time Stone is even more powerful there because it has no limits without the existence of time?

It was because time isn't something that's measured in the Dark Dimension, everything just is or isn't. It's not being tracked, timed, recorded, recalled for reference. So when Strange created a Time-Loop, Dormamu was forced to experience the exact same thing Time and Time again till he was tired of experiencing it. Strange created a way for something to timed, recorded and recalled for reference.

[BranDonk Kong]

We're probably overthinking it, but Strange casted the spell outside of the Dark Dimension, so I kept resetting time for him, but Dormammu was not affected, so to him, the experience was repeating rather than resetting. At least, that's what I think.

[nickmitch]

Back to the MCU discussion.  I thought Dr. Strange's use of the time stone made sense.  He can't do to Thanos what he did to Dormammu because Dormammu lived in a pocket dimension without time, so Dr. Strange could annoy him into submission.

If there’s no time in the Dark Dimension, how was Dr. Strange able to use the Time Stone? I don’t mean that as a rhetorical question. Without time, I feel like that stone wouldn’t have much use there. Or maybe the implication is that the Time Stone is even more powerful there because it has no limits without the existence of time?

It was because time isn't something that's measured in the Dark Dimension, everything just is or isn't. It's not being tracked, timed, recorded, recalled for reference. So when Strange created a Time-Loop, Dormamu was forced to experience the exact same thing Time and Time again till he was tired of experiencing it. Strange created a way for something to timed, recorded and recalled for reference.

Right, Strange used the stone to anchor himself in time.  That let him not actually die when he fought Dormammu.  He basically made and IRL save state.

Also, just because we all could come up with a better plan than Dr Strange doesn't mean he would. We live in a super universe of thinkers and ponderers.

What would a better plan be?  Fight Thanos a million times until you figure out a way to win?  Because I'm pretty sure that's what he did in the scene where they were making the plan.

We're probably overthinking it, but Strange casted the spell outside of the Dark Dimension, so I kept resetting time for him, but Dormammu was not affected, so to him, the experience was repeating rather than resetting. At least, that's what I think.

I see the argument get brought up a lot, so I enjoy discussing Strange's use of the time stone.

[ThePerm]

How do we know we weren't just experiencing an iteration of events? Doesn't he seek the future in all iterations?

Alternate successful Dr Strange could always show up from another reality.

I wonder how many realities he would save until he got bored?

[BlackNMild2k1]

Doctor Strange steps out of Sling Ring Portal back into the Manhattan Sanctum Santorum.
takes off his gloves and sets his cape free to go hang itself up on the rack in the other room.
Strange says: Well, that could've been one helluva bloody mess

Ant-Man suddenly resizes up to normal size as Captain Marvel come throught he portal, followed by a excited and stumbling yet confused Luis through the still open sling ring portal.

Luis says: OMG WTF was that, that was f'n crazy man

Wong: Startled by the unexpected guest says: Who are these people and what happened out there

to which Luis says: Oh man, you ain't gonna believe this
as Luis then goes into one of his voice over recaps of the battle that took place and the defeat of Thanos and the Black Order before they could get the Mind or Time Stones.
this recap last for almost 2 hours, only being broken up by the constant interruptions by other Avengers interrupting to correct a piece of the story, such a Thor reminding Luis to mention how "Glorious his entrance was, and how magnificent his new axe Jambjorn <sp> was".

the remaining 30 minutes is the dawn of a new threat, and the setting up the beginning of Phase 4, such as the purchasers of the Avengers Tower renaming it to the Baxter Building, and replacing that giant A with a number 4.
Also the nation formerly known as Sokovia and the regions surrounding it have formed a new union under a new power, a new leader known as Victor Von Doom, and they seek recognition on the World Stage.

Post Credit scene is Zemo being housed in a facility in a next to Abomination, and being spoken to by Thunderbolt Ross about forming a new squad, recruiting some other people of interest, as they pan towards the rest of the hallway, and some more inmates are seen.

[/end terrible alternate idea inspired by The Perm]

[Adrock]

Back to the MCU discussion.  I thought Dr. Strange's use of the time stone made sense.  He can't do to Thanos what he did to Dormammu because Dormammu lived in a pocket dimension without time, so Dr. Strange could annoy him into submission.

If there’s no time in the Dark Dimension, how was Dr. Strange able to use the Time Stone? I don’t mean that as a rhetorical question. Without time, I feel like that stone wouldn’t have much use there. Or maybe the implication is that the Time Stone is even more powerful there because it has no limits without the existence of time?

It was because time isn't something that's measured in the Dark Dimension, everything just is or isn't. It's not being tracked, timed, recorded, recalled for reference. So when Strange created a Time-Loop, Dormamu was forced to experience the exact same thing Time and Time again till he was tired of experiencing it. Strange created a way for something to timed, recorded and recalled for reference.

Right, Strange used the stone to anchor himself in time.  That let him not actually die when he fought Dormammu.  He basically made and IRL save state.

Okay. I looked this up. My understanding now is Dormamu exists beyond time so he kills Dr. Strange over and over, but Dr. Strange only experiences their interaction once due to the time loop. Is that correct?

They could have been clearer on that. The dialog and how Dr. Strange’s inflection changes every time he said, “Dormammu, I’ve come to bargain,” made it sound like he was aware of and affected by every time Dormammu killed him. I figured Dormammu didn’t just imprision and torture Dr. Strange until he ended the time loop himself because Dr. Strange proved he could withstand the cumulative effects of getting brutally murdered countless times.

Time manipulation as a plot device is perilous.

[Adrock]

Plot twist: At the end of Avengers 4, Dr. Strange tells Tony Stark this wasn’t one of the possible outcomes he saw.

[BranDonk Kong]

Well Dr. Strange knows that he'll be repwting himself before he does it. He could even know how many times he's repeated himself since he knows how many futures he looked at, and could just "tell himself" before he revisits Dormammu each time.

[Adrock]

I thought Dr. Strange doesn’t know how many time loops have occurred, and that’s why this plan works and why it wouldn’t work on Thanos. Dormammu exists beyond time so he lives through and remembers every loop. Dr. Strange (like Thanos) exists within time so he can only experience the time loops as they happen. If applied to Thanos, he wouldn’t remember the loop either so end of movie.

To organize my thoughts because this is really boiling my noodle: Dr. Strange’s death restarts the loop so every time Dormammu kills Strange, the time loop is triggered meaning Strange continues to experience meeting Dormammu and getting murdered for the first time. Strange bet on Dormammu killing him repeatedly when he created the time loop, but he didn’t know if it would work or how many times it would take for Dormammu to surrender (assuming, of course, that Dormammu would surrender eventually). My understanding is Strange is unaware of how many loops have occurred because it’s always the first time to him. He doesn’t realize a loop ever happened (and his plan may be working) until Dormammu asks “What’s happening?” or demands Strange break the loop, and Strange only has that knowledge until Dormammu kills him again. The implication is that they’re both trapped unless Dormammu accepts the bargain.

However, it doesn’t explain why say, imprison and torture wasn’t even attempted. It may just be one of those logic-busting things we have to accept because it’s fiction like why the machines don’t just send a bunch of Terminators back in time to kill Sarah and/or John Connor. The real reason is there would be no movie. Misinterpreting the way the time loop worked in Doctor Strange briefly pulled me out of Infinity War because it seems like an obvious win-button. Now that (I think) I understand, a new question arises in Doctor Strange: why doesn’t an all-powerful being like Dormammu try literally anything other than killing Dr. Strange? “But you will suffer!” Yeah, but Strange suffers for like a second then has no idea it happened. Ultimately, it’s there if we’re nitpicking, but I can live with it.

[nickmitch]

I thought Strange remembered each time.  Wasn't there a scene earlier when he figures out the magic respawn point because he had died?  Also, I thought it was tied to the dimension and not Dormammu himself?  Maybe I need to rewatch the movie.

How do we know we weren't just experiencing an iteration of events? Doesn't he seek the future in all iterations?

Alternate successful Dr Strange could always show up from another reality.

I wonder how many realities he would save until he got bored?

Does the time stone allow for alternate realities?  I would assume it's just one time line, but he can see possible alternatives and make corrections as needed.

[BlackNMild2k1]

@Adrock

I would guess, for what wasn't shown due to time constraints, but may have been funny depending on how it was shown, was that Dormammu probably tried different aspects of torture, but in all of them Strange eventually died, and therefore reset the loop, which then started to drive Dormammu crazy, eventually leading to him accepting the deal.

I think it might have been funny to show something to this effect in the middle, where Dormammu tried to not kill him, and time would pass, but Strange would annoy him and continually attack him, and the Time Loop confined him to a specific area triggering a reset if he tried to leave, so after growing increasingly annoyed at Strange (like a mosquito near his ear), he would eventually kill him out of frustration.
This would then lead back into a another montage of quick deaths before he finally gives up and accept the deal.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Oh, and the reason I came in here is...

I don't know what Disney plans to do in regards to the James Gunn stayfired/rehire situation.
But Bautista, who has been going hard directly at Disney on the matter, has threatened to quit if they don't continue to used James Gunn's already completed script.

I feel like Drax may not make it out of Avengers 4 Alive... so if you hear about any reshoots, let that be where your mind goes first. Not to including F4 and X-Men post credit scenes, but to Drax being erased from existence as Thanos's final act.
https://www.shortlist.com/entertainment/exclusive-dave-bautista-interview-james-gunn-guardians-of-the-galaxy-firing-quit-twitter/368730

[oohhboy]

If DS remembered each loop or even the tiniest moment he would go mad long before Dormammu. It only works if DS can't suffer any consequences or entropy via any new information. It is Dormammu that must feel every second.

It's possible the loop is programmed to shift his position slightly each time so DS's thought process is slightly altered via butterfly effect plus DS cold reading Dormammu. It's not critical but would enhance the torture. You could argue the opposite where the extreme level of repetitiveness is the key. As long as it makes Dormammu "choices" worthless it doesn't matter.

Re: Bautista; that is some serious loyalty and principals. Either way he is a winner. He has deadman switched the movies that could cost the Mouse millions by poisoning the well.

[UncleBob]

>why the machines don’t just send a bunch of Terminators back in time to kill Sarah and/or John Connor.

I mean, they're machines, not gods.

A.) They have limited resources.  They're fighting a war.  Same reason we didn't just send a billion men to Europe against Germany during WWII.

B.) By the time they built the time machine, the humans had already won.  This was explained in the first movie (and explained how Kyle came back) and kinda touched on in Genesys - sending the first Terminator back was a complete hail mary pass.  Two just implies that the time travel happened at the same time, while three never really explains... well, anything.  Four doesn't use time travel, Genesys... well, is fun, but don't logisize it.  And the TV show... oh, gawd, you should watch it.  They actually DO send back a bunch of Terminators and Resistance fighters. all through the timeline, each trying to make small changes (see the next point) to the timeline to help their respective sides.

C.) Screwing with time travel is bad, yo.  Granted, there's a bit of self-fullfilment prophecy built into the Terminator lore (The machines going back gave us the technology to create the machines, Kyle going back gave us the seed to create John), but the machines don't really know this.  What if their meddling in the past ends up tipping the humans off on what's to come and we completely prevent Skynet from ever happening?  If you're going to alter the timeline, you have to use surgical precision, not blunt force.  Something something butterfly effect.

So, there.  Don't question Terminator logic.  Either, it's explained well within the lore (1, 2, TV), it isn't explained at all (3), or you're just going to have a bad day (5).

[BlackNMild2k1]

>why the machines don’t just send a bunch of Terminators back in time to kill Sarah and/or John Connor.

I mean, they're machines, not gods.

A.) They have limited resources.  They're fighting a war.  Same reason we didn't just send a billion men to Europe against Germany during WWII.

B.) By the time they built the time machine, the humans had already won.  This was explained in the first movie (and explained how Kyle came back) and kinda touched on in Genesys - sending the first Terminator back was a complete hail mary pass.  Two just implies that the time travel happened at the same time, while three never really explains... well, anything.  Four doesn't use time travel, Genesys... well, is fun, but don't logisize it.  And the TV show... oh, gawd, you should watch it.  They actually DO send back a bunch of Terminators and Resistance fighters. all through the timeline, each trying to make small changes (see the next point) to the timeline to help their respective sides.

C.) Screwing with time travel is bad, yo.  Granted, there's a bit of self-fullfilment prophecy built into the Terminator lore (The machines going back gave us the technology to create the machines, Kyle going back gave us the seed to create John), but the machines don't really know this.  What if their meddling in the past ends up tipping the humans off on what's to come and we completely prevent Skynet from ever happening?  If you're going to alter the timeline, you have to use surgical precision, not blunt force.  Something something butterfly effect.

So, there.  Don't question Terminator logic.  Either, it's explained well within the lore (1, 2, TV), it isn't explained at all (3), or you're just going to have a bad day (5).

Can I assume that was posted in the wrong thread from a different year (UB Time traveled a post?) or are we supposed to use that Terminator Time Travel logic in the DS Time Loop Discussion? 🤔

[UncleBob]

No, I was replying to a comment up thread. :p

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=43091.msg939307#msg939307