Topic: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010

[BlackNMild2k1]

As the reviews say? I'm gonna assume that alot of these reviews are NOT bought with advertising money and that they are NOT rated the way they are just because of new gadget hype. But here are the reviews so far:

IGN:
Kinect Sports 8.0
Dance Central 8.0
Kinect 7.5
Sonic Free Riders 7.5
Kinectimals 7.0
Kinect Adventures 6.5
Joy Ride 6.0
Adrenaline Misfits 5.0

GameInformer:
Dance Central 8.75
Kinect 8.0
Kinect Sports 8.0
Kinectimals 8.0
The Biggest Loser: Ultimate Workout 8.0
Kinect Adventures 7.5
Kinect Joy Ride 7.0
Sonic Free Riders 5.75
Fighters Uncaged 4.5

GameTrailers:
Kinectimals 8.5
Kinect Adventures 6.6
Kinect Sports 6.4

Joystiq:
Kinect Sports 4/5
Kinectimals 4/5
Dance Central 4/5
Your Shape: Fitness Evolved 3/5
Kinect Joy Ride 2.5/5
Sonic Free Riders 1/5

1UP:
Dance Central A-
Kinect Adventures B

Eurogamer:
Dance Central 8
Kinectimals 7
Kinect Sports 7
Kinect Adventures 6
Your Shape: Fitness Evolved 6
Kinect Joy Ride 5
Fighters Uncaged 2
Kinect

CVG:
Kinect 8.8
Kinect Sports 7.9
Kinect Adventures 6.3
Kinect Joy Ride 5.3

Videogamer.com:
Dance Central 8
Kinect Sports 7
Kinect Adventures 6
Kinect Joy Ride 6

Destructoid:
Dance Central 8
Your Shape: Fitness Evolved 8
Kinect Sports 6.5
Kinect Adventures 6
Kinect

OXM US:
Dance Central 9.0
DanceMasters 8.5
Your Shape: Fitness Evolved 8.5
Kinectimals 8.0
Kinect Sports 7.5
Sonic Free Riders 7.5
Kinect Adventures 7.0
Fighters Uncaged 6.0
The Biggest Loser: Ultimate Workout 6.0
Adrenaline Misfits 5.0
Kinect Joy Ride 4.0
MotionSports 3.5

GameSpot:
Kinectimals 7.5
Kinect Sports 7.5

GamePro:
Dance Central 4.5/5

NowGamer:
Dance Central 8.4
Kinectimals 8.1
Kinect Adventures 7.0
Kinect Joy Ride 7.0
Kinect Sports 6.4
Fighters Uncaged 6.4

Kotaku:
Kinect Adventures
Dance Central
Kinectimals
Kinect Sports
Kinect
Your Shape: Fitness Evolved

Engadget hardware review: http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/04/kinect-for-xbox-360-review/
The Good:
Powerful technology
Voice commands really work
Yoga, dance games show real potential

The Bad:
Requires lots of room space
Launch lineup could be better
Hand gesture UI can be very slow

6/10

Kinect isn't made out to be as bad as it has sounded. It surely isn't the second coming of motion controls, but it certainly looks like something the casuals could latch onto.... if the complete package wasn't so damn expensive.

[Ian Sane]

I look at Kinect and all these red flags pop up about accuracy and usability.  But as I read more into it I wonder if this will even matter.  I had the same concerns with the Wii.  Nintendo was promoting Wii Sports and I was thinking about how you could move in tennis or field in baseball.  Those seemed like essential elements to me and I could not see how you do it with the Wii remote.  Well in the end Nintendo did not include those elements so I was more or less right about not being able to do those with the remote.  And I found Wii Sports fun for what it was but felt it lost its novelty quickly due to the lack of depth.

But this didn't matter.  Wii Sports and the Wii were a huge success.  Most people didn't think like I did.  They didn't care about no fielding or no moving and it did not hurt their gameplay experience like it did mine.

I look at Kinect and I'm thinking that it is even more limiting then the Wii remote.  How the hell do you move?  Is every game going to be on-rails?  The accuracy also sounds like a complete nightmare.  But there may very well be a huge amount of people, like with the Wii, that don't give a ****.  They're cool with playing games that in my mind lack depth because they are prohibited by too many limitations.  We saw the car game where you don't even have a gas and brake, you just steer.  I'm thinking it's the stupidest joke of a game imaginable.  But not everyone thinks like me.  I'm thinking it COULD be a success.  I cannot make predictions based on my perceptions of quality.  I see politicians get elected all the time that I cannot comprehend how anyone would vote for.  I see products and businesses do gangbuster business despite the fact that I cannot see how any rational person would ever enjoy the product.  People fall for obvious cons and make incredibly stupid self-harming decisions all the time.  And I also see good products fail all the time.

The Kinect looks like horseshit and I wouldn't buy it and I can't imagine any of my family or friends buying it either.  That may very well be completely irrelevant.  In a world where Let's Dance is a huge success why can't Dance Central, which sounds superior in every way, sell Kinects?

[oohhboy]

Having read a good sampling of the reviews, there a fair bit of disconnect between the content of a review and score. There are a lot of 5-7/10 "Passes" and a lot of the higher scored reviews are surprisingly thin on real details. There is a lack of analysis going on. Some are positively schizophrenic with half the review loaded with hidden contempt, and the other half filled with "ehh it's all good".

However, a couple of things can be taken away from this, Kinect can never be the primary controller like the Wiimote is. 2, it's near worthless for the hardcore gaming.

I read some of the comments and I laughed each time someone mentioned minority report. They are so enthused by Kinect, it's hard not to call them a plant.

[Kytim89]

I look at Kinect and all these red flags pop up about accuracy and usability.  But as I read more into it I wonder if this will even matter.  I had the same concerns with the Wii.  Nintendo was promoting Wii Sports and I was thinking about how you could move in tennis or field in baseball.  Those seemed like essential elements to me and I could not see how you do it with the Wii remote.  Well in the end Nintendo did not include those elements so I was more or less right about not being able to do those with the remote.  And I found Wii Sports fun for what it was but felt it lost its novelty quickly due to the lack of depth.

But this didn't matter.  Wii Sports and the Wii were a huge success.  Most people didn't think like I did.  They didn't care about no fielding or no moving and it did not hurt their gameplay experience like it did mine.

I look at Kinect and I'm thinking that it is even more limiting then the Wii remote.  How the hell do you move?  Is every game going to be on-rails?  The accuracy also sounds like a complete nightmare.  But there may very well be a huge amount of people, like with the Wii, that don't give a ****.  They're cool with playing games that in my mind lack depth because they are prohibited by too many limitations.  We saw the car game where you don't even have a gas and brake, you just steer.  I'm thinking it's the stupidest joke of a game imaginable.  But not everyone thinks like me.  I'm thinking it COULD be a success.  I cannot make predictions based on my perceptions of quality.  I see politicians get elected all the time that I cannot comprehend how anyone would vote for.  I see products and businesses do gangbuster business despite the fact that I cannot see how any rational person would ever enjoy the product.  People fall for obvious cons and make incredibly stupid self-harming decisions all the time.  And I also see good products fail all the time.

The Kinect looks like horseshit and I wouldn't buy it and I can't imagine any of my family or friends buying it either.  That may very well be completely irrelevant.  In a world where Let's Dance is a huge success why can't Dance Central, which sounds superior in every way, sell Kinects?

I do not see Kinect gaining too much ground simply because the Kinect is trying to abandon the controller and the controller has been ingrained into consoles since their inception. Therefore it seems as if people will have a hard time dropping the controller for hands free gaming, or atleast for now. I mean the same thing goes for digital download for games, some people just like having the physical product in their hands and controllers are just the same.
 
Move, on the other hand, is just a quick imitation of what the Wii has done already in the past few years. If this were 2007 or 2008 then I would be worried about what Move and Kinect and were going to do to the Wii.
 
 

[Ian Sane]

I do not see Kinect gaining too much ground simply because the Kinect is trying to abandon the controller and the controller has been ingrained into consoles since their inception.

But I also figured that would affect the Wii and it didn't.  I figured that over console generations the basic controller design had evolved into a de facto standard and that Nintendo was ditching too many buttons and functionality with the remote.  The new design would be incompatible with many older games which I figured would be a big issue.  You can't just throw away stuff that devs and gamers have grown to expect to be there and not have some compatibility issues.
 
But again it did not matter.  The target audience did not care.  So when I go on other forums and see guys talking about how their wife wants to get Kinect I'm wondering if I really can make a fair prediction on its success.  MS is likely not even trying to sell it to me or anyone else who likes the types of games I do so my reasons for declaring Kinect to be a stupid joke might not matter.  Hey these types of games can't be made for it.  For the casual market they're aiming for the response might be "so what?"  If it's just shallow on-rails games based on dancing and virtual pets that might be all the target demo even wants.  And if so it could be a huge success without core gamers even looking twice at it.

[Kytim89]

I do not see Kinect gaining too much ground simply because the Kinect is trying to abandon the controller and the controller has been ingrained into consoles since their inception.

But I also figured that would affect the Wii and it didn't.  I figured that over console generations the basic controller design had evolved into a de facto standard and that Nintendo was ditching too many buttons and functionality with the remote.  The new design would be incompatible with many older games which I figured would be a big issue.  You can't just throw away stuff that devs and gamers have grown to expect to be there and not have some compatibility issues.
 
But again it did not matter.  The target audience did not care.  So when I go on other forums and see guys talking about how their wife wants to get Kinect I'm wondering if I really can make a fair prediction on its success.  MS is likely not even trying to sell it to me or anyone else who likes the types of games I do so my reasons for declaring Kinect to be a stupid joke might not matter.  Hey these types of games can't be made for it.  For the casual market they're aiming for the response might be "so what?"  If it's just shallow on-rails games based on dancing and virtual pets that might be all the target demo even wants.  And if so it could be a huge success without core gamers even looking twice at it.

Sony realized that Nintendo was beating them with the Wii's motion controls and so they decided to imitate Nintendo by creating the Move. The real reason why the Move controller exsists is Sony wants to attract the Wii loyalists to their system with HD graphics and motion controls. This not the case with Microsoft, however, because they have not been hurting too much sales wise. This is why Kinect is so radically different to the Wii. Overall, Microsoft and Sony realize that Nintendo has a golden Goose with the Wii and they want their own golden goose, or chicken.  :
 
Which of the two new motion controls will bring out the Wii 2? I would wager Sony's Move mainly because of the similaritiies between the two systems and HD graphics. This is why the Wii 2 will have to HD graphics to keep Move off balance. Let's continue this disscussion in my thread "Wii Successor and Glasses Free 3D."
 
When I compared Kinect removing the controller to digital download media, I forgot to mention that perhaps Kinect is walking the same path as the PSPGo. Both systems are revolutionary, but suffered because the market was not ready for it offered. I personally do not see hand held controllers going away anytime soon.

[BlackNMild2k1]

A look at Kinect through some IR goggles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7nRKU0nFxA

sending out a million points of reference.

[Stratos]

A look at Kinect through some IR goggles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7nRKU0nFxA

sending out a million points of reference.

"There's a million points of light all over my couch, my table. All over my junk..." LOL

[bustin98]

[Spak-Spang]

I want to know if these reviews were played with optimal perfect conditions.  If so, then it will never be a perfect review.  Just like Wii reviews need to be realistic.  However, I have a feeling Kinect is probably being played in perfect little areas with perfect conditions...and yeah these first reviews are of course going to get new platform first game release buffer scores, but even with those scores everything is just average...and NOTHING is a home run...and definitely not a grand slam.  poor microsoft...I think they are pretty screwed.  This isn't like the Wii which was affordable for the hype.  This is buy an Xbox and a Kinect.  And the hardcore gamer is going to wait until that must buy game for the device before buying it. 

[Chozo Ghost]

A lot of gamers live in small apartments with piles of cluttered junk everywhere. I'm sure their Kinect experience will be very different than that of some well paid game reviewer who is going to have a large clean area to work with.

[DAaaMan64]

So we own all 3 setups now.

WiiM+, Move, Kinect.
Initial impressions of Kinect with Kinect Sports is that there is a lot of noticeable delay, quality of play decreases with 2 player, it is not accurate enough to do quality throws in the Javelin and Discus events. In Table Tennis the game is no damn forgiving you'll never miss a shot. Navigating is slow and annoying, which is why they made Table Tennis so forgiving, cause its the same gameplay basically.

I'm probably gonna say this:
WiiM+ has the best pointer controls as long it doesn't go off screen.
Move  has the deepest sports game, which I like.
Kinect is even more casual than Wii at this point (due to accuracy) with this library. Maybe those hybrid games will help, but I doubt it.

When it comes down to Move vs WiiM+, unsure, the quality of the motion controls seems about the same. Offscreen pointer feedback is better on the Move, its just that the delay is bad on Move.

[bustin98]

I think 'well paid' game reviewers are few and far between.

Yes, if you have less than 6 feet of room to work with, you should not bother with Kinect. If you do not have a steady floor (some old houses can be rickety) you should not get Kinect. If you do not have a ceiling light or other fairly decent lighting in your gaming room, you should not buy it. Same with low ceilings or things hanging low from the ceiling.

Right now, if you don't have kids, I wouldn't bother getting it either. I'm sure some title down the line will be entertaining for the older crowd, but so far the Kinect titles definately skew younger. So many freakin instructions and reminders.... just shut up and let us play.

If you do make the jump, be prepared to be sore. You move way more than with the Wii, sometimes you have to be really quick about it too.

DAaMan, you'll have to post an Adventure photo sometime...

[BlackNMild2k1]

Not everyone looks as amused as you in this picture.....

So we own all 3 setups now.

When it comes down to Move vs WiiM+, unsure, the quality of the motion controls seems about the same. Offscreen pointer feedback is better on the Move, its just that the delay is bad on Move.

So you would probably rate them in the order that you listed them at this point?
WiiM+ > Move >> Kinect

[DAaaMan64]

Ha well I don't know. Because I like Sports Champions depth of game play better than WSR's variety, I'm not sure. Honestly, I'm going to say yeah because the pointer controls on Wii are so much less delayed. Its so close though that it doesn't really matter.

The move is a nice piece of hardware.

[KDR_11k]

I think a significant part of that half billion in advertising bought plants for message boards and stuff but I don't think game reviewers can be bought over this considering how closely gamers will be looking at it and satisfying the audience is fairly important.

A lot of gamers live in small apartments with piles of cluttered junk everywhere. I'm sure their Kinect experience will be very different than that of some well paid game reviewer who is going to have a large clean area to work with.

Reviewers don't have spaces like that either. Eurogamer described how they had to bring the thing into their homes and pretty much shove all their living room furniture aside to make room for it.

[bustin98]

Not everyone looks as amused as you in this picture.....

My wife never looks amused... and my girl wants to play, but she's too short. So she was upset about that.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Ha well I don't know. Because I like Sports Champions depth of game play better than WSR's variety, I'm not sure. Honestly, I'm going to say yeah because the pointer controls on Wii are so much less delayed. Its so close though that it doesn't really matter.

The move is a nice piece of hardware.

I actually edited out that list before I submitted. It looked like this originally
WiiM+ >= Move >> Kinect

I guess that would be more accurate? But are we talking about the usability of the hardware or the user experience with the software?
I haven't used either Move or Kinect, but I have been very vocal about how Move seems like the best overall tech out of the 3 since it sorta runs a middle ground between the 2. It's not perfect, but it's a step in the right direction.

If the Wiimote 2.0 could just put a PSeye/Kinect like camera in the sensor bar and then some IR lights in the remote itself(around the top+
bottom edges), it would be one upping Sony at copy Nintendo's own ideas by copying Sony's but doing it even better.

But this is a Kinect thread so....

Not everyone looks as amused as you in this picture.....

My wife never looks amused... and my girl wants to play, but she's too short. So she was upset about that.

There is a height requirement!? O_o
I don't remember that being one of the many Kinect Koncessions you needed to make.

[apdude]

my girl wants to play, but she's too short. So she was upset about that.

Maybe they will come out with Kinect stilts for the vertically challenged.
 
Also it looks like you don't want to play this with the ceiling fan on... (speaking from experience since I put a guitar hero guitar into a ceiling fan once).

[bustin98]

You have to be 3 ft 2in high (my 2 year old isn't 3' yet).

And you can't just walk into a session if you aren't probably at least 5 ft high. There is a process of creating a Kinect ID. Unless you go through this, the system tries to fit you into a generic body, which happens to be an adult. If you are short, then the avatar will be shown with bent knees in order to accomadate the difference. Funny enough, if you are short and have an ID, your avatar is still adult height but without the bent knees. That deserves an O_o

[Chozo Ghost]

I don't think video games in general are intended for kids under about 6 years anyway, so that height requirement is pretty minimal. But, there are some adults with Dwarfism that are under that height, so that requirement might piss them off...

[Ian Sane]

My wife never looks amused... and my girl wants to play, but she's too short. So she was upset about that.

Until you mentioned your 2 year old I totally misread that.  I figure your wife and your "girl" were the same person.  I thought you were saying that she never looks amused but with THIS she wants to play but can't because she's too short.  I was thinking it was kind of funny that the one time she was excited about doing something, she can't participate. Then I thought about how restrictive Kinect is if a grown woman can't play.  Then I thought about how short your wife must be, like if you married a midget or something.

[Mop it up]

But, there are some adults with Dwarfism that are under that height, so that requirement might piss them off...

Any adult who isn't even 3ft, 2in is going to have serious physical problems anyway, and probably wouldn't be able to play a Kinect game even if it could read their movement.

[DAaaMan64]

Ha well I don't know. Because I like Sports Champions depth of game play better than WSR's variety, I'm not sure. Honestly, I'm going to say yeah because the pointer controls on Wii are so much less delayed. Its so close though that it doesn't really matter.

The move is a nice piece of hardware.

I actually edited out that list before I submitted. It looked like this originally
WiiM+ >= Move >> Kinect

I guess that would be more accurate? But are we talking about the usability of the hardware or the user experience with the software?
I haven't used either Move or Kinect, but I have been very vocal about how Move seems like the best overall tech out of the 3 since it sorta runs a middle ground between the 2. It's not perfect, but it's a step in the right direction.

If the Wiimote 2.0 could just put a PSeye/Kinect like camera in the sensor bar and then some IR lights in the remote itself(around the top+
bottom edges), it would be one upping Sony at copy Nintendo's own ideas by copying Sony's but doing it even better.

But this is a Kinect thread so....

Yes that is an accurate representation.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Kinect has been Hacked
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-kinect-pc-blog-entry

Gizmodo reported over the weekend that Kinect for Xbox 360 has been hacked, or rather reverse-engineered, with the motion-sensing hardware operating on an ordinary PC.

Two videos, uploaded to YouTube by NUIGroup admin AlexP, show the compromised motion sensor in action, demonstrating the progress made in the few days since Kinect arrived at US retail. While some may might consider this is an elaborate fake, AlexP is something of a renowned reverse-engineer, having produced open source drivers for PlayStation Eye, so the chances are this is very much the real deal.

Alex's first video demonstrates how the Kinect motor is controlled via PC while a second reveals the RGB and depth camera feeds running on PC. The latter video is especially intriguing as, according to Alex, the depth feed can be captured at 640x480 - just like the PrimeSense reference camera from which Kinect is adapted - while the official Kinect spec lists depth resolution at a quarter of that - 320x240.

The popular conception is that Kinect has been cut down in several ways from the original PrimeSense tech, and enhanced in others (the multi-array mic, for example). However, iFixit's brilliant teardown of the sensor reveals that the "brain" of Kinect - the PrimeSense processor - has indeed made its way through into the final shipping product.

source with video: http://gizmodo.com/5683744/was-microsoft-kinect-hacked-already


Looks like Kinect is more capable than what MS is playing it up to be. Perhaps they are throttling it to save the on the % of CPU it uses from the 360 itself?
I wonder how it will be used with computers, and how this will advance the hobby robot enthusiast market.