Topic: Nintendo's Tipping Point?

[Ian Sane]

so basically its legal and ethically neutral what they do. i dont see any grounds to criticize them.

So are you like a recently self aware robot or something?  Like... HUH?!
 
I didn't think Other M was any good.  Better not criticize it though since Nintendo didn't break the law or do anything evil in making it. 

[thesignpainter]

I just think if people want these games that badly, they should just import them and do what's necessary to get them working on their Wii's. It's a hassle, but its not like you wont be able to play them which is what it comes down to in the end. If people can put the effort in for these "operations", they can surely put the effort in to stick the Homebrew channel on and pay a bit extra to play the games they so dearly want to.

[NWR_Lindy]

...but people shouldn't have to do that.  In fact, Nintendo themselves don't even WANT people to do that.  But in this scenario, they are forcing people to do just that.

Let's hope they actually do have at least some of these games up their sleeves for North America, and are just choosing not to announce them at the present time (and making a huge PR blunder in the process).

[GoldenPhoenix]

I still am curious just how much of a blunder it is, I am still not convinced the market as a whole on the Wii really care, including the "core" gamers or if it is just an outspoken minority doing this. Let's face it we've seen this before in the past with Wii, people clamoring for a specific game, and it comes out, but guess what? It doesn't sell, indicating there was either just a vocal minority and/or the "core" gamers were not serious about purchasing it in the first place.

Does that mean it is a good thing NIntendo isn't releasing them here? No, not in the least but the thing is that there is a possibility people are exagerrating the impact it really has, even for the more the so called "core' gamers. People have short memories, it has been proven time and time again, a year from now or whenever the Wii U comes out, these 3 games will likely be distant memories except for a few.

[thesignpainter]

Yeah, most people asking for these games wouldn't buy them, that I'm certain of. The people who would buy them will probably go through the loops to play them anyway.

Its a crappy situation, sure, but the means to play these games in a tongue you understand will exist. And as has been said, its unlikely these games not releasing in America will affect Wii U significantly. Who's going to pass on the next Zelda because Xenoblade didn't come to US shores? 

[broodwars]

Its a crappy situation, sure, but the means to play these games in a tongue you understand will exist. And as has been said, its unlikely these games not releasing in America will affect Wii U significantly. Who's going to pass on the next Zelda because Xenoblade didn't come to US shores?

*raises hand*

I already have.  I've already stated that I'm purchasing Skyward Sword used just to not give any of my money to Nintendo.  As for future franchise titles, if they're as startlingly uninspired and mediocre as some Nintendo titles have been this generation (including Twilight Princess), I won't shed a tear at buying them Used as well if I buy them at all.

The important thing is that it's not just these three games.  These are neither the first nor will they likely be the last Wii games that Nintendo of America has refused to release in NA.  In the past, though, it was at least somewhat understandable since we were under the impression that some mythical mountain of Wii games were being worked on, and NoA just didn't have the resources to allocate to them.  Remember that this is the company that has promised time and time again that we wouldn't see huge software droughts like we have the last two generations.  Yet in this case Nintendo has a huge dearth of Wii software, and is simply refusing to release games they'd have to put only a minimal amount of work releasing here.  You say "one game", and I say "it's a pattern NoA has shown it believes in, and it's one that will continue to be a problem on Wii U."  That's why I think this hurts them.

[Luigi Dude]

Let's hope they actually do have at least some of these games up their sleeves for North America, and are just choosing not to announce them at the present time (and making a huge PR blunder in the process).

It's all about the European sales at the moment.  The fact that NOA hasn't had Xenoblades original title, Monado, taken of Amazons games list, which is allowing people to still preorder it, shows they still haven't completely ruled out a North American release in the future.  This makes it very obvious that NOA is going to be watching how it does in Europe, before making any decisions or NCL might force them to release it if the European sales are good as well.

If they had no plans of ever bringing it over or knew there was no chance of being forced to bring it over, I'd image they would have had Amazon remove the game from their site by now.

[TJ Spyke]

Nintendo has no influence over Amazon. Amazon has had titles up for pre-order that haven't even been announced (and sometimes never did). That just says Amazon believes it will be released.

[Ceric]

To jump in a little late on parts of this, N64 and GameCube survived on the Core Gamer if they would have not had the loyalty that they had I could easily see Nintendo being a handheld only company.  As Lindy and Ian say Goodwill is worth its weight in gold for a company.  Sony can still use its name to sell product even though the company products have been wide ranging in quality for years.  Cars are a big market for loyalty like that.

I mean look at clothes.  Why do some brands command 80-100 dollars for a shirt when its the same material and like as a 10-20 dollar shirt?  Its brand image and percieved value.  You want to be the product in your field associated with the positive and cool.  People should be proud to say they use your product.

[ShyGuy]

This is the best article Lindy has ever written.

[NWR_Neal]

This is the best article Lindy has ever written.

I don't mean to demean anything previous that the dude's written, but I echo that sentiment. This is a great article. Bravo, my predecessor.

Anyway, the Airwalk thing doesn't hold up directly to this, because I'm pretty sure I could just get Karlie to buy me a pair of Airwalks from Europe and send them to me, and then hack my feet so I can play them. I know we have some long-standing rule of not supporting this kind of practice, but **** it. Until NoA announces these games, my plan is to import these games from Europe. If I don't, I might burn my Wii out of boredom.

[sigrah0x7ba]

People should be proud to say they use your product.

So... gamers are proud that they purchased Microsoft's broken system, a situation that they didn't even try to fix until the EU started looking into bringing legal action against them? They're proud that they purchase Sony's overpriced system, and even got that second job just to do it, because Sony said they would be? They're proud to have trusted Sony with their sensitive data, which they practically gave away to hackers?

Somehow not localizing 3 games is on the same level... No, no, apparently it's WORSE than what Sony and MS have done in the past. Or is it just that Sony and MS have so much more gamer goodwill, what with how well they've treated them over the years.

Or could it simply be that gamers have almost 0 (zero) long term memory and will forget all about this by the time the Wii U comes out. There isn't even any current or even historic outrage at Sony and MS that matches what gamers are throwing at Nintendo today.

There really is a double standard in the video games industry.

[Ceric]

People should be proud to say they use your product.

So... gamers are proud that they purchased Microsoft's broken system, a situation that they didn't even try to fix until the EU started looking into bringing legal action against them? They're proud that they purchase Sony's overpriced system, and even got that second job just to do it, because Sony said they would be? They're proud to have trusted Sony with their sensitive data, which they practically gave away to hackers?

Somehow not localizing 3 games is on the same level... No, no, apparently it's WORSE than what Sony and MS have done in the past. Or is it just that Sony and MS have so much more gamer goodwill, what with how well they've treated them over the years.

Or could it simply be that gamers have almost 0 (zero) long term memory and will forget all about this by the time the Wii U comes out. There isn't even any current or even historic outrage at Sony and MS that matches what gamers are throwing at Nintendo today.

There really is a double standard in the video games industry.

Its a testament to the brand that after all those problems people still like brandishing being a PS3 player or more so an XBox 360 player as a badge.

A lot of this for Nintendo has been building since the N64.

This is the best article Lindy has ever written.

I don't mean to demean anything previous that the dude's written, but I echo that sentiment. This is a great article. Bravo, my predecessor.

Anyway, the Airwalk thing doesn't hold up directly to this, because I'm pretty sure I could just get Karlie to buy me a pair of Airwalks from Europe and send them to me, and then hack my feet so I can play them. I know we have some long-standing rule of not supporting this kind of practice, but **** it. Until NoA announces these games, my plan is to import these games from Europe. If I don't, I might burn my Wii out of boredom.

Nothing is going to directly correlate to this because of the nature of the business is so new comparatively speaking and also so limitted in the players.  Conceptuelly the Airwalks still work.
 
Also, All Hail Megatron!

[broodwars]

People should be proud to say they use your product.

So... gamers are proud that they purchased Microsoft's broken system, a situation that they didn't even try to fix until the EU started looking into bringing legal action against them? They're proud that they purchase Sony's overpriced system, and even got that second job just to do it, because Sony said they would be? They're proud to have trusted Sony with their sensitive data, which they practically gave away to hackers?

Somehow not localizing 3 games is on the same level... No, no, apparently it's WORSE than what Sony and MS have done in the past. Or is it just that Sony and MS have so much more gamer goodwill, what with how well they've treated them over the years.

Or could it simply be that gamers have almost 0 (zero) long term memory and will forget all about this by the time the Wii U comes out. There isn't even any current or even historic outrage at Sony and MS that matches what gamers are throwing at Nintendo today.

There really is a double standard in the video games industry.

Microsoft and Sony have made plenty of mistakes this generation.  No one can or will deny that.  The difference is that they have acknowledged their mistakes and have made attempts to repair their relationship with their customers, and they know how to spin these situations in ways that their customers will appreciate (the massive warranty extension and the Welcome Back gifts).  Nintendo talked a good game at E3 about wanting to bring the core back, and look at how that's shaped out with this incident.  As alluded to recently on NWR, these companies also have very public faces and places with Major Nelson and the Playstation Blog, where their fans can have the impression that their concerns reach those who can do something about it (even if the reality is not the case). 

Nintendo has essentially shown its fans on more than one instance that they don't care what they think or what they want, if the demographics don't point to them being a source of big sales.  If you own a Nintendo system, you'll take what Nintendo gives you and be thankful for it.  And as the Almighty God of Gaming, they don't need to communicate with the little people and hear their needs.  Imagine how much better this scenario might have panned out for Nintendo if they had simply come forward and explained their reasoning, rather than essentially a blanket "thanks, but **** you!" comment after several days of build-up.  I know I wouldn't have liked it, but I would have appreciated not just being brushed-off like I didn't matter.

[sigrah0x7ba]

Microsoft and Sony have made plenty of mistakes this generation.  No one can or will deny that.  The difference is that they have acknowledged their mistakes and have made attempts to repair their relationship with their customers, and they know how to spin these situations in ways that their customers will appreciate (the massive warranty extension and the Welcome Back gifts).  Nintendo talked a good game at E3 about wanting to bring the core back, and look at how that's shaped out with this incident.  As alluded to recently on NWR, these companies also have very public faces and places with Major Nelson and the Playstation Blog, where their fans can have the impression that their concerns reach those who can do something about it (even if the reality is not the case). 

Nintendo has essentially shown its fans on more than one instance that they don't care what they think or what they want, if the demographics don't point to them being a source of big sales.  If you own a Nintendo system, you'll take what Nintendo gives you and be thankful for it.  And as the Almighty God of Gaming, they don't need to communicate with the little people and hear their needs.  Imagine how much better this scenario might have panned out for Nintendo if they had simply come forward and explained their reasoning, rather than essentially a blanket "thanks, but **** you!" comment after several days of build-up.  I know I wouldn't have liked it, but I would have appreciated not just being brushed-off like I didn't matter.

First off, Sony and MS made no mistakes. These incidents were not mistakes. They were premeditated and calculated. They knew exactly what they were doing and they were hoping that gamers would be willing to let them off the hook, and they did.

Calling Nintendo out and then not doing the same for Sony and MS is not only disingenuous, it's down right idiotic.

For Nintendo to have done what gamers wanted them to do this generation would have meant the end of Nintendo. They would have needed to put out and overpowered system that would have cost them a fortune and then dove head long into the bribery wars that Sony and MS have been engaging in to get developers to make games for their systems. In the end they would have lost billions of dollars and been left in a position where they most likely wouldn't have the resources to manufacture a new system.

That is what gamers seem to want. They want Nintendo gone and they want to destroy gaming as a whole. Just look at how many developers have closed shop this generation. And they still haven't managed to get a grip on costs. If Sony and MS leapfrog Nintendo again, which is what everyone is expecting them to do, what do you think is going to happen to developers? Expect what we've seen this generation only a whole lot worse.

Nintendo is the only hardware manufacturer today who knows how to make an actual console that is cost effective and affordable. Sony and MS have no clue in that regard. But they are good at FUD and marketing.

It's just too bad that people are such easy targets for simple solutions.

[farnham]

so basically its legal and ethically neutral what they do. i dont see any grounds to criticize them.

So are you like a recently self aware robot or something?  Like... HUH?!
 
I didn't think Other M was any good.  Better not criticize it though since Nintendo didn't break the law or do anything evil in making it. 

you can criticize other m as a product that you spend your money on

but you cant criticize the act of development and release of other m itself.

[Retro Deckades]

i dont see any ethical issues in nintendos behavior. and if its a purely financial critique, as i said they are taking the damage if they are wrong not you.

Nope. If the Wii U is released, and I invest my money in purchasing one, I do so with the expectation that there will be entertaining software to play on it.  As a company, Nintendo has set that precedent. If that system is unsuccessful for whatever reason and support disappears, then I DO incur some financial damage, as I will have to turn to another video game system for entertainment. It's happened before to all those who bought Virtual Boys and Dreamcasts.

A big difference this generation is that many people bought the Wii solely for the game included with it. Whether or not Nintendo has recognized this and is now making release decisions based on this information, they are not providing product for their video game entertainment system, and for many of us who bought the system, that is a problem. Many have incurred the financial penalty of having to invest in a second gaming system just to have something to play.

[broodwars]

so basically its legal and ethically neutral what they do. i dont see any grounds to criticize them.

So are you like a recently self aware robot or something?  Like... HUH?!
 
I didn't think Other M was any good.  Better not criticize it though since Nintendo didn't break the law or do anything evil in making it. 

you can criticize other m as a product that you spend your money on

but you cant criticize the act of development and release of other m itself.

You have to love it when people run around telling you what you can and cannot criticize about Nintendo as if it were something factual written into the LAAAAAAW, like they were Nintendo's private police force.

[farnham]

There's absolutely grounds for criticism here, that is, if Nintendo is indeed in the business of providing what their fans want as they certainly claim to be. You're absolutely right...no company is obliged to do anything, ever.  For example, Sony wasn't obliged to do anything to "make it up" to their customers for allowing their user information to get leaked on a massive scale.  But they did.

of course they were obliged. they have concluded a contract with every psn user out there and even if this contract does not specifically say anything about the event of a hacker attack sony has an implied obligation to protect personal data of its users (im pretty sure they do say that they will not give user data to third parties or something. im not sure though). so the so called make up was a measure to stop potential trials.

You know why?

Because ultimately, the strength of your brand cannot be measured in dollars and cents.  It can only be measured in the degree of goodwill afforded you by your customers.  Even the perception of being a strictly dollars-and-cents operation ultimately weakens Nintendo in the eyes of their biggest fans, which is exactly the opposite of what a business wants.  It's a double-edged sword...the more popular your business becomes, the more people you need to please, and the more people you risk pissing off.  It's the price of success.

Nintendo should know better.

sorry but if nintendo followed the fans they would have perished a long time ago

its the abandoning of the fans that got them over the top with the wii or the ds. nintendo wants masses that eat up their cheap games not a small vocal crowd that cries about nintendo not investing tens maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars to release a game when they only invested 250 dollars in the console.

[Adrock]

I still am curious just how much of a blunder it is, I am still not convinced the market as a whole on the Wii really care, including the "core" gamers or if it is just an outspoken minority doing this. Let's face it we've seen this before in the past with Wii, people clamoring for a specific game, and it comes out, but guess what? It doesn't sell, indicating there was either just a vocal minority and/or the "core" gamers were not serious about purchasing it in the first place.

Does that mean it is a good thing NIntendo isn't releasing them here? No, not in the least but the thing is that there is a possibility people are exagerrating the impact it really has, even for the more the so called "core' gamers. People have short memories, it has been proven time and time again, a year from now or whenever the Wii U comes out, these 3 games will likely be distant memories except for a few.

I was browsing the forums on my phone and I want you to know that I literally got out of bed, walked to my computer, and signed in just to I could quote this and give you an internet high five.

I think a lot of people who are upset about this are upset on principle because they can't buy these games, not because they actually wanted to. It's understandable, if a little childish. I wouldn't be surprised if NOA is thinking the same thing. Many of these people would not have bought a single one of these games, let alone all 3. Had these games been on the release schedule all along, I'm convinced that many of the same people who are sending letters to NOA and trolling their Facebook page would be complaining that The Last Story, Xenoblade, and Pandora's Tower were the ONLY games coming out before Skyward Sword and not something else like Pikmin 3. Sure, they're core titles.... but for a niche segment of the user base. These are also probably the same people who didn't buy the really great but admittedly niche titles on the Wii such as Madworld, Muramasa, and to a lesser extent, No More Heroes which at least performed well enough to justify a sequel. All great games that based strictly on quality should have been played by more people. Unfortunately, they weren't and I doubt that The Last Story, Xenoblade, and Pandora's Tower would have faired much better, even with the anemic release schedule.

I understand what the editorial is saying, but I respectfully disagree. Nintendo will be just fine. Wii U will not be affected in any significant way by NOA's refusal to publish these titles or the assumption that NCL won't license the game to, say, Atlus or XSEED. I'm personally saddened that I won't get to play these games (namely The Last Story as it reminded me a bit of Final Fantasy IX), but the world won't stop for anyone.

[broodwars]

For the record, Adrock: all those games you listed?  I purchased them all (even the crap-tastic Muramasa and Madworld) along with many others you didn't list, and every one of them on or near their original release date.  I can't say with certainty I would buy Pandora's Tower.  Of the 3, that's the one I know the least about and have the most reservations about.  I can say I would buy Last Story and Xenoblade, though, and if we get to the Wii U and NoA still hasn't released them I plan on importing them.  I think you have a point that Nintendo not even allowing us the opportunity to buy this game is what's irritating so many people, but I think a large share if not the overwhelming majority of Operation Rainfall would have purchased all 3 games.  Right now, Amazon.com certainly confirms that much, at least where Xenoblade's concerned.

[Adrock]

I'm not sure what your point is. I didn't single you out as someone who didn't buy those games. I'm glad you bought them because they were awesome. Okay, you didn't like them, but I did.

Also, pre-ordering something on Amazon means almost nothing because anyone can cancel a pre-order.

[farnham]

i dont see any ethical issues in nintendos behavior. and if its a purely financial critique, as i said they are taking the damage if they are wrong not you.

Nope. If the Wii U is released, and I invest my money in purchasing one, I do so with the expectation that there will be entertaining software to play on it.  As a company, Nintendo has set that precedent. If that system is unsuccessful for whatever reason and support disappears, then I DO incur some financial damage, as I will have to turn to another video game system for entertainment. It's happened before to all those who bought Virtual Boys and Dreamcasts.

A big difference this generation is that many people bought the Wii solely for the game included with it. Whether or not Nintendo has recognized this and is now making release decisions based on this information, they are not providing product for their video game entertainment system, and for many of us who bought the system, that is a problem. Many have incurred the financial penalty of having to invest in a second gaming system just to have something to play.

1. you will pay 600 $ max for wii u and 60$ max for a game. nintendo willbhave to spend millions of dollars to develop manufacture and distribute. so no you have no say in their business just because you bought a product unless its faulty or it infringes your rights
2. dont buy ninrendo consoles if you dont like what they are doi g

[apdude]

People interested in RPG's on home consoles did not buy a Wii because there are none.  NOA knows that nobody is going to buy a Wii in it's last year of existance just to play these.  Sure some people who own a Wii would like to play them, but probably not enough to justify the expense.  I can see after an RPG on the WiiU comes out and if it does well, then try to release these or an upgraded version of these three on it to potentially boost WiiU sales and solidify it as a machine for RPG fans.  Why sell something for 50 when you can sell it for 60 next year.

[Retro Deckades]

1. you will pay 600 $ max for wii u and 60$ max for a game. nintendo willbhave to spend millions of dollars to develop manufacture and distribute. so no you have no say in their business just because you bought a product unless its faulty or it infringes your rights
2. dont buy ninrendo consoles if you dont like what they are doi g

Not sure how this is a response to my post, because it doesn't seem to address my main point, so in that case I'll just assume that you agree.

To take things to the extreme, just for fun, one might argue that the Wii currently IS a faulty product because it is not currently capable of playing new, entertaining content. Imagine that you decide to see a movie this Saturday night for your weekend entertainment, but after purchasing your ticket and sitting down in the movie theatre you discover that there is actually no movie to show. That would suck.

Since unrelated points seem to be the order of the day, allow me to offer a few helpful pointers:

1. The dollar sign ($) actually goes in front of the number (i.e. $60)
2. Sentences usually begin with capitals.
3. I buy Nintendo consoles, not ninrendo consoles. (I usually tend to ignore typos, but I can't let this one go)

Also, if reductio ad absurdum actually worked, I could say, "If you don't agree with what other users are posting in this thread, then don't read it," but alas, here we are.

Anywho, I thoroughly enjoyed the article. I'd love to play Xenoblade and The Last Story (samplings of Xenoblade's soundtrack has had me anticipating the game for some time), but regardless of how this all plays out, it will be interesting to follow. I wonder if Nintendo has noticed that many Nintendo-focused websites are publishing editorials regarding their lack of attention devoted to Wii gamers?