Topic: Let's Talk Controller

[BlackGriffen]

We Really should have a thread dedicated to just controller speculation/wishes. Now, I like the GC controller as is. I do think that there are a couple of improvements that could be made. First, I would replace the A button region with a rounded black & white touch sensitive LCD. That way, Devs who want a Sony style layout need only implement it. It would be problematic to have the buttons "pushed" based on just touch, though, because then you'd have nowhere to rest your thumb. So, the 'buttons' should be activated, sensitively, by a rub (maybe, would require real testing to be sure).

Second, the z trigger is useless as it is. It might be worth it to make two z buttons (z1 and z2 or zL and zR), one on the inside of each grip. I don't know how sensitive it should be (a stiff click or like L and R have at the bottom of their range of motion or like the face buttons) .This is primarily for FPSes, so it would be nice if it were digital.

What ideas do you have?

BlackGriffen

P.S. I didn't think it was a good idea at the time, but props to the user in the Old PGC forums (the green themed ones before PGC switched to external hosting) who thought that a touchscreen on a gamepad would be a good idea.  

[Ian Sane]

My ideal controller design.

Yes I know it's quite generic and doesn't push the envelope but dammit I want all games to play well on it, not just first party titles.  The Cube's button layout is cool for a title like Metroid Prime but sucks for a 2D fighting games.  A traditional design would be accomodating and realistically would work for both Metroid Prime AND 2D fighting games thus giving us the best of both worlds.  I would rather have a controller that works pretty good for all games than one that works great for some and sh!tty for others.

I posted that pic a while ago and people complained about having two z-buttons.  I don't want two buttons exactly like that I just want two digital buttons in front of the analog triggers so we have the same amount of buttons as the PS2 (and likely PS3) controller so it makes ports work better.  Having six face buttons works too.  The analog sticks also have to "click" like the Xbox and PS2 controllers to match the competition.  There's no point in having less features and options when there's room to include them.

One addition I would like to include however would be a built in screen right on the controller.  That way Nintendo can make games like Four Swords without having us buy four $100 GBAs (or DS's) to play it.  I imagine the controllers would cost less to make and sell than a full-on portable system.  Plus it would give the N5 a feature that the competition likely wouldn't have.  It could be a touchscreen even.

Wireless should be standard.  The controllers can have detachable cords to plug into the system if you don't want to use batteries.

I really don't like the idea of having a touch screen for the buttons themselves.  That's just WAY too different and people (like myself) would have a hard time adapting to it.  It would turn off tons of people.  I know I would have second thoughts if that was the standard controller.  With controllers generic design is GOOD.  Mandatory touchscreen input would be seen as a controller problem by a lot of people and realistically there's no major advantage to it beyond the "wow neato" factor.

Oh and I think a mouse should come standard with all N5s.  That would really open up game design possibilities and if it's included then 100% of N5 owners have one thus making it worthwhile for third parties to use it.

[RABicle]

Quote
First, I would replace the A button region with a rounded black & white touch sensitive LCD. That way, Devs who want a Sony style layout need only implement it.

As I read that and it sunk in I literally said 'woah' outloud. That is a truly fantastic thought, it warped my mind, I had to hold my head for a minute just to comtemplate it's awesome-ness. But then I remembered how annoying the touch sensative buttons can be compared to teh real thing. But still a custom moulded button layout is beyond awesome.

Quote
There's no point in having less features and options when there's room to include them.

Well there is kinda, it's cheaper. I like the way I spend less money on memory cards and controllers than my PS2/Xbox friends, money I can spend on better games. However I think the PS2/PSX has proved that 4 shoulder buttons should be standard. Anyone who disagrees should play Prince of Persia in PS2 and then play it on Xbox or Cube.

Wireless should be standard, along with devices to charge them.

[Uncle Rich AiAi]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
One addition I would like to include however would be a built in screen right on the controller.  That way Nintendo can make games like Four Swords without having us buy four $100 GBAs (or DS's) to play it.  I imagine the controllers would cost less to make and sell than a full-on portable system.  Plus it would give the N5 a feature that the competition likely wouldn't have.  It could be a touchscreen even.

I've also been having that idea.

"would be a built in screen right on the controller."
Do you mean the screen positioned at the middle of the controller?  That is my idea.

Having a built in screen raises 2 issues.  (1) It will rise the cost of the controller.  (2)  You don't the want controller to be too wide, b/c of the added screen in the middle.  And b/c of that, the screen may need to be small.

[Draygaia]

First of all I would make the front of the the controller have some space like the Dreamcast controller. Second with all that space position everything for comfort. I think the d-pad should be like the DC's but positioned like the xbox controller s. Well something that feels good.

I like them to keep the L/R buttons of the GC. They feel like Top and Trigger buttons at the same time. But I also like the fact that PSOne had four of them so I think instead of two the GC's z button they put an extra set of buttons for your middle fingers.  The z-button still got interesting for a while and it gave me ideas.  They would be cool two extra scroll buttons.  Great for swapping items.

As for thumb buttons I think Nintendo should decide that one. They always come of with something interesting every generation. Everybody else just copies of the SNes.

The right joystick IMO should exchange positions with the thumb buttons and turn into a d-pad PSOne style. I thought c-buttons of the N64 were awesome in another way. They were great for Zelda, Goldeneye (FPS in general on the thing), etc Other than a game like Ape Escape I can't really think of any other game that really used the right joystick well. That why I bring back the c-button style but more like the PSOne d-pad instead. Maybe add a button in the middle since I never really stuck my thumb in the middle of the c-buttons.

People complain about controlllers being too big or small and the thing I notice the most about sizes was the handle length. They should be long since if you picture a long stick a small hand won't notice the length feel but a big hand will be happy about it.

The left joystick is fine but I would like them to make that into a button.

I would like them to ignore making it look cool until the very end. Comfort is what is important and I watch my screen when I play games. I don't look at my controller thinking about giving it a 3/10 on a review just to make seem bad.

Some points where your last two weak fingers can just apply pressure for some action on the handle rather than actually adding two buttons

I would like some tilt action in there. This would make controlling certain games interesting. I would like to see it with the Samus Morph Ball.

A tiny screen on the top like the Dreamcast just not on a mem card. To me this is much better than having to have a GBA and is something you can experience not just on the DS.

Two memory card slots since there probably wasn't enough room on on the GC console for four slots and it makes things somewhat more convenient and so we don't have to buy another controller backup data.

I also think it should use wire but still be able to play wireless. The wire would be for charging the rumble and I want the rumble and you can disconnect the wire when it is done charging. The rumble is a much better alternative as some in-game indicator rather than some onscreen distraction or a sound you probably won't hear since you'll probably be so into the game.

I know its a lot of stuff but to me as long as you have a lot of features w/o affecting the feel in a negative way it gives the developers more options instead of limits.
 

[Ian Sane]

Really bad looking design for N5 controller with screen.

Okay obviously the screen is too small in that "mockup" but the idea is that the only about half of the screen takes up controller space.  The top half would be a little "chunk" above the solid controller and it would be thin so that your hands can fit behind it to use the triggers.

Another possibility which would keep the cost of the controllers down is to have an expansion port like the N64 controller had that a seperately purchased screen can attach to.  Connectivity games can be made to either use Gameboys or use the existing controller with the screen attachment.  I suppose some games could just use the screen attachment since there would be more buttons available.  I assume a seperate screen would cost much less than a full on Gameboy and it would be good for people who buy a multiplayer connectivity games like FFCC that don't have four GBAs among their group of friends.  They could throw one of the screens in with the system itself to ensure that a lot of people have them.

[Shorty McNostril]

The only problem I can think of with that design is the risk of it breaking clean in half.  I know this could easily be avoided by simply taking care of the controller.  But what I've seen some people do with conrtollers is shocking.  EVen those that do take good care of them could accidently drop it and snap.  Especially if they would be as thin as you say. The price would also go up heaps.  I already pay $50 (aus) each for them.  Other then that it seems good.

[skyfire]

I really like that idea of using a touch screen for buttons. I guess somthing like that would be on the right side of the controller where the buttons normally go. If there is any problem i can see arising from this is the tactile interface with it.

I assume most of us don't look at the controller when we play, we just move our digits around and we know where everything is because we can feel it. Having a LCD that can be programmed for whatever buttons to be used would be hard to discern where the buttons are on the screen since it would be smooth normally so some kind of tactile interface would be needed so any player could find said button on the screen.

Ofcourse there is also the cost and durability issues to contend with but hey! this is Nintendo, if they can't figure it out no one can .

[Ian Sane]

"The only problem I can think of with that design is the risk of it breaking clean in half."

Well I imagine it would be as thin as the top half of a GBA SP so I don't think it would too fragile.  And I subscribe to the philosophy that if you break controllers, scratch games, spill beer on your console, etc. you're a f*cking idiot and deserve to have to buy stuff over again.

[Draygaia]

I too also like the touchscreen and also believe most people don't look at their screen in their hands but somehow if you can make a game that really makes it useful then I see myself and a lot of other people really seeing it useful.  For example:  Lets say some enemy turns you into stone and it lasts for 6 rounds and you know you're going to survive.  While he is attacking.  On the smaller screen it can kinda act like something you're automatically going to do after he attacks.  Or you control a friend who's going to help you because you're so stoned and that beats having to switch back and forth on the same screen so you know the status of the person in trouble.

I just noticed the error of my idea.  It is so damn expensive.

[KDR_11k]

Keep in mind that a touchscreen can register only one position at a time. Having more than one or a bunch of secondary (map, pause, super-weapon, what-have-you) buttons wouldn't be possible.

[BlackGriffen]

Are you sure about that? Is there some technical reason why it has to be that way, or is it just that nobody has ever tried?

If true, you're right, that puts the kibosh on my particular idea. Not on touch screens altogether, but just on that particular idea.

BG

[PugGTI]

Telemetric gloves to go alongside a well wicked controller... hehe. Maybe thats a bit too unfeasible.

[Chode2234]

I think it is important for the revolutions traditional controller to be similar enough to the competitions that it is port friendly and multi-genre friendly.  I don't want there to be any excuses for reasons not to have 3rd party games on the rev.

Im going to call it Rev from now on, is that OK?

[Ian Sane]

I've been thinking about the controller design and I think I've come up with something much better than my previous idea that will work with virtually every console game ever made excluding obvious exceptions like light gun games.  Talk to anyone who has used it and they'll tell you that the best 3D controller ever made is the Sega Saturn 3D controller.  On one side there's the analog stick with a big d-pad below it.  On the other side there are six face buttons arranged in the Street Fighter II style.  And then there's the L and R trigger buttons which I believe are analog like the Dreamcast.

Now imagine adding a second analog stick to the other side, adding a digital "click" to the analog L and R buttons like the Cube controller has, make sure there's both a start and select button, and make the analog sticks click and you've got a controller that can play any of the competition's games and any NES, SNES, N64, and GC game ever.  I can't think of any game that wouldn't work with that design.

If I have time and can find a good picture of the Saturn 3D controller I may try to make a mockup later today.

[Oldskool]

I have a feeling that the Revolution's controller will be an improved and refined GC controller, obviously with some design differences. With this console, I think Nintendo's gonna inovate in a way that we would never think of, rather than have an LCD screen on the controller, sensitive buttons etc...

[Draygaia]

I just read the cube.ign possiblities with the Revolution and I really love the idea of that techonology similar to what was seen in "Minority Report"  The thing with the hands is just so awesome.  Imagine a game where it is so much more better than that Samurai Arcade game with the sword controller.  Maybe there might be a Zelda game that might teach you how to use a sword and built around using the master sword.

Also the console tablet idea is pretty cool.  Having a screen where you can touch your way through things (The DC controller screen idea might just come true!) is also pretty cool.  Its like an extension of the buttons but not putting too many on the controller.

The camera idea is also awesome.  Not entirely new since some of the ideas can be done already.  Would be great create a game level out of your house.

[Ian Sane]

"Maybe there might be a Zelda game that might teach you how to use a sword and built around using the master sword."

I hate that idea.  Zelda isn't a damn fencing game.  It's about exploring dungeons and having an adventure.  Making you actually have to sword fight is just going to complicate things.

That's what I thought was so off about IGN's ideas.  Most of those ideas were really complicated and to me don't really fit Nintendo's plans to simplify things and attract new gamers.  A lot of them also sounded neat but really didn't seem like they would necessarily be fun.  When writing that they seemed to just think about "could they do this" instead of "should they do this" "would this actually make a game better".

[Bill Aurion]

Ugh, this is the problem with newer gamers...They don't understand what Zelda is... -___-

My perfect controller would be basically the same as the GC controller, except the Z button would be another trigger like the DC controller...And maybe add another one...It's also been already confirmed that the Revolution won't be "dual-screened," so you can count the "tablet" idea out...

[ThePerm]

well as long as its not like one of those pc touchpads...damnit i dont like those! My hands produce a fair amount of sweat...so its impossible for me to use em because of the film i leave.

[Bill Aurion]

Ninty invested in a company called Gyration, Inc. a while back...The use of motion sensor technology in a controller would indeed be unique...

[KDR_11k]

And it would suck as much as the tilt sensor in Microsoft's Freestyle Pro pad...

[Bill Aurion]

Not if used correctly...

[ShyGuy]

Ok, Nintendo should do what it did with the original Nintendo Entertainment System:  They included with the system two different ways for the player to interact with the games: the standard game controller and the Light Gun Zapper, which was the "gimmick-slash-creative" controller.

This way games can still be ported to from the Sony and Microsoft systems and Nintendo gets to flex its creative muscle and introduce new ways for us to play.

As to what the non standard controller should be, I think something along the lines of a gyroscope based controller, using technology similar to what's shown here: Gyration Ultra GT

Instead of a mouse or tv remote like shape, I propose something like a flight joystick handle minus the base.  

Think of what something like this could be used for:

You could point it at the screen like a gun in Duckhunt and the crosshairs would track with your movement.

You could swing it like a sword in a Light Saber fighting game.

You could use it as a tennis racket, a baseball bat, or a golf club. (a company called Xavix is already doing something similar )

You could use it like a mouse for games that work better under a point and click interface like SimCity or Warcraft

What do you guys think?

[PugGTI]

i reckon nintendo will go with a gimmicky thing like clickable shoulder buttons......