Author Topic: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?  (Read 28299 times)

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Offline Ceric

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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #75 on: October 04, 2012, 05:38:42 PM »
Assumptions Made in that list:
CPU Not Modern
Competition will have 4-8gb of Ram
MSRP was Pre-Determined

Can you source those 3?
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #76 on: October 04, 2012, 05:45:10 PM »
Also, the assumption that the controller costs $100. I doubt it's even half that.
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #77 on: October 04, 2012, 05:47:29 PM »
Also, the assumption that the controller costs $100. I doubt it's even half that.

It's $170 in Japan, no way will it be $50 or less here. I don't think it will be $170 here, but I don't see them charging 1/3 the price here.
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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #78 on: October 04, 2012, 06:06:41 PM »
What it costs Nintendo to manufacture and what they're going to charge for it at retail are two very different things; controllers are some of the highest markup in the business. The former is much more relevant to the discussion we were having.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #79 on: October 04, 2012, 06:08:51 PM »
Assumptions Made in that list:
CPU Not Modern
Competition will have 4-8gb of Ram
MSRP was Pre-Determined

Can you source those 3?

1) A developer for Dynasty Warriors said it was a slower CPU than that of the PS360. Also, even long before that I remember reading something another developer said about the Wii U's CPU being inferior to that of existing consoles. Developers wouldn't be saying this if there wasn't at least some kernel of truth to it. Its not just one developer which is saying this either. Its happened at least twice.

2) A rumor was posted recently that the Xbox420 Devkit has 12gb of RAM. The Devkit is always going to have more RAM than the final consumer end console, but there is no reason to have 12gb of RAM in the Devkit if your console is going to have only 2gb RAM in the finalized version. So based on that rumor I would expect the final console to release with a minimum of 4gb and a maximum of 8gb of RAM. As for the PS4, I have no idea. That one could be more, less, or exactly the same.

3) I think its a safe to assume that every hardware manufacturer has a target MSRP in mind when they are designing any product. In order to prove that I would have to know the full details of Nintendo's inner workings and their design process, and I don't, but why would anyone go about designing in a haphazard wanton way with no goals or targets? I don't think someone who has been in the business as long as Nintendo has would be stupid enough to be willy nilly in their hardware design. Nintendo had a targeted MSRP in mind. I can't prove that, but I would seriously bet money on that.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #80 on: October 04, 2012, 06:14:42 PM »
1) A developer for Dynasty Warriors said it was a slower CPU than that of the PS360. Also, even long before that I remember reading something another developer said about the Wii U's CPU being inferior to that of existing consoles. Developers wouldn't be saying this if there wasn't at least some kernel of truth to it. Its not just one developer which is saying this either. Its happened at least twice.

And you're just ignoring all the developers who have said it's better hardware than either of them? I've pretty sure there have been significantly more than two people who've said that.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #81 on: October 04, 2012, 06:16:37 PM »
What it costs Nintendo to manufacture and what they're going to charge for it at retail are two very different things; controllers are some of the highest markup in the business. The former is much more relevant to the discussion we were having.

But if they are selling the controller at retail for $170 then why couldn't it cost $100 (or even more than that) for them to manufacture it? That would still be $70 markup.

Do you really think it only costs them $50 to manufacture the controller and then they are selling it for $120 profit? I don't think even Nintendo would be quite that excessive.

And you're just ignoring all the developers who have said it's better hardware than either of them? I've pretty sure there have been significantly more than two people who've said that.

I've seen developers praise the Wii U's controller and the Wii U's graphical capabilities, but I can't think of even a single time where a developer outright praised the CPU in particular. The consensus seems to be that the CPU is "good enough" at best. No one is saying "Wow! This CPU is lightyears ahead of its time!". Developers can't seem to agree on whether its better or worse than the PS360's CPUs, but the problem is the PS360 isn't going to be the Wii U's competition, so marginally beating them out is only a Phyrric victory. Its like showing up at a party with the best costume just before the party ends, and then you're standing there by yourself looking like an idiot because everyone else is leaving even though you have only just arrived.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 06:29:05 PM by Chozo Ghost »
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Offline Spak-Spang

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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #82 on: October 04, 2012, 08:05:37 PM »
The question isn't what the new systems will have...the question is where are we in terms of graphics this generation and next generation...if we are getting to the point that basically it is cost prohibited to have much better graphics than what we are currently getting...then it doesn't matter what the new systems have...it isn't worth it for developers to spend that much per game...specially were the market is desiring cheaper games not more expensive games. 

I will tell you what...i know the iOS market isn't perfectly sustainable with its super low prices for games... but it is showing people good, even great games don't have to be $60.00.  In fact even digital games are showing that games can be great and priced lower.  So I see developers are going to need to adjust, and begin releasing budget titles...not every title, but I do see a potential shift happening in the market. 

I will tell you right now, if gaming went to releasing games at portable console prices for retail console games, there would be a bigger market and audience for gaming.  $30.00 to 40.00 a game is much more reasonable than 50 to 60.

Basically, what I am saying is the future of gaming is not settled, and Nintendo's lower powered system may be more than powerful enough for the future...and Xbox 720 and PS4...may just be too powerful and pointlessly advanced.


Offline Adrock

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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #83 on: October 04, 2012, 08:31:50 PM »
Why do you say that? I think it did have an effect on the hardware because when Nintendo was designing the console they had a target MSRP in mind and so when they were working on the specs of the console they were trying to meet this target.
It takes years to design hardware. Any major changes costs a lot of money. The GamePad was almost nixed in the final design phase due to cost concerns. Had that actually happened, I have my doubts that Nintendo would have bumped up the specs. Their entire philosophy revolves around not doing that. Fortune favors the bold and they chose to forge ahead with the GamePad.

Nintendo's lower powered system may be more than powerful enough for the future...and Xbox 720 and PS4...may just be too powerful and pointlessly advanced.
That is a real possibility.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 08:34:19 PM by Adrock »

Offline Soren

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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #84 on: October 04, 2012, 11:03:01 PM »
"Wow! This CPU is lightyears ahead of its time!".


In Nintendo's defense, that's a terrible "back of the box" quote.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #85 on: October 05, 2012, 12:20:47 AM »
Fortune favors the bold and they chose to forge ahead with the GamePad.

Yes, but taking the easy road of conservative hardware and preying on casual suckers with a gimmick is hardly a bold move. It was a move that brought Nintendo great fortune with the Wii, but it isn't guaranteed it will work just as well this time around. It may, or it may not. The market is different now then it was 6 years ago. The people who bought into the Wii back then have now moved on to iPhones and Androids. Those who remain and still give a crap about console gaming are the Core gamers who Nintendo turned their back on these last several years.

In order for the Wii U to succeed Nintendo must win Core gamers back, but sticking with the shitty Wii brand name and using cheaped out obsolete hardware and a gimmicky controller already has the console on thin ice right from the start. Core gamers haven't forgotten how the Wii turned out, so they will be reluctant to give its successor a chance. By sticking with the same shitty name, weak hardware, and gimmicky controls they have made winning over the core market an uphill battle. Its a battle they can still win, but like I said they needlessly put the console on thin ice and made it harder to win gamers over than it needed to be. What the console lacks in hardware capability it absolutely MUST make up for that with software. There is no room for errors this time around. If third parties don't embrace it and there are lengthy game droughts the Wii U is toast. History. Done. Game over.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #86 on: October 05, 2012, 12:35:27 AM »
I still think the only people who care that it retains the Wii branding enough that it affects their purchasing decision are people like you and Ian who are just looking for reasons to hate the system. If it weren't that, it would be something else. If people are worried because of how the Wii turned out, changing the name isn't going to make that go away. And the controller is the same controller everyone else has plus a screen, so I'm not sure why you think that's going to turn people away.
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #87 on: October 05, 2012, 12:44:13 AM »
Chozo, please stop the crap and calling the Wii U GamePad a "gimmick". It's a standard controller that just has a touchscreen in it. Developers can even ignore the screen and treat it the same as any other controller. The "Wii" brand name is not shitty.
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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #88 on: October 05, 2012, 12:53:24 AM »
Guys Chozo has been doing this pretty much for several months and I think he is just doing it for attention so I think it would best to just ignore him or report him and move on.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #89 on: October 05, 2012, 01:23:20 AM »
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #90 on: October 05, 2012, 01:29:46 AM »
Well, I already wrote this whole thing so I'm posting it. Honestly, I don't think Chozo is trolling and he's not breaking any rules. I enjoy the discussion, but I've tried lately to step away before I start feeling the need to throw the f-word around. He's entitled to his opinion which I won't debate. I will inquire about his reasoning for the sake of discussion.
The market is different now then it was 6 years ago.
It sure is. The market is always changing and that's why Nintendo must continue to evolve. It remains to be seen whether Nintendo's strategy will work out though I think it's a pretty sound one. Considering what something as simple as a 2nd screen did for Ocarina of Time, I'm keeping an open mind regarding the GamePad.

You're awfully judgmental of these so-called casual suckers. Didn't they buy something they wanted just like you and me? One could argue that we're all suckers for paying thousands to interact with moving shapes on a screen.
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In order for the Wii U to succeed Nintendo must win Core gamers back, but sticking with the shitty Wii brand name and using cheaped out obsolete hardware and a gimmicky controller already has the console on thin ice right from the start.
I love how you're so hung up on the "gimmicky" controller when it's just a regular controller with a screen on it. Unlike the Wii Remote, it's not limiting in the least. In fact, it offers MORE options. Nintendo took a traditional controller and added to it and yet it's for casual gamers somehow. I don't understand your reasoning whatsoever.

You're also hung up on the "obsolete" hardware despite the fact that you've proven to know nothing about how hardware works. I can't even count how many times you've trashed the CPU based on clock speed of all things, as if it's that simple (hint: it's not). Home consoles will always be outclassed by PCs. That doesn't render home consoles obsolete. It's not the hardware itself; it's what developers can do with it. The Wii U is a more modern design. You insist that Nintendo "cheaped out." That's one way of looking at it. Another way is that they have valued optimization and efficiency for over 10 years now. The Xbox didn't run circles around Gamecube despite having better numbers on paper. We're simply not going to see the same drastic jump from standard definition to high definition ever again so if you're expecting a repeat of the Wii vs. PS3/360 in terms of graphics, you're wasting your time. The sad truth is that it's been 6-7 years and current generation games are still really, really expensive to produce. And you want even more powerful hardware that demands higher budgets and longer development cycles? How much better will they even look? Good luck with that.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 01:32:03 AM by Adrock »

Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #91 on: October 05, 2012, 01:48:26 AM »
Chozo, please stop the crap and calling the Wii U GamePad a "gimmick". It's a standard controller that just has a touchscreen in it. Developers can even ignore the screen and treat it the same as any other controller.

I know that. But that doesn't change the fact it really is a gimmick. Do you know what the definition of gimmick is? This fits the definition. Keep in mind a gimmick is not necessarily a bad thing. What is a bad thing, however, is how expensive it is.

I already explained this anyway just a few posts back. Why are you ignoring those posts like they didn't even happen?

The "Wii" brand name is not shitty.

Yes it is. It is shitty both because the name is stupid, and also because it is associated with dust collecting casual waggleware. So there's actually two reasons why its shitty.

If you disagree and think the Wii brand is awesome, that's fine. That's your opinion. But its not the opinion of the majority of core gamers. My point is simply that it makes winning over core gamers an uphill battle for Nintendo. As I said, its a battle they can still win, but they are on thin ice already.

Guys Chozo has been doing this pretty much for several months and I think he is just doing it for attention so I think it would best to just ignore him or report him and move on.

Report me for what exactly? For telling it like it is?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 01:56:33 AM by Chozo Ghost »
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #92 on: October 05, 2012, 01:53:30 AM »
Guys Chozo has been doing this pretty much for several months and I think he is just doing it for attention so I think it would best to just ignore him or report him and move on.

As obnoxious as Chozo may be being, he's not currently breaking any forum rules, so please don't report him, as those reports get sent to me and are very annoying to get when they aren't legitimate.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #93 on: October 05, 2012, 01:56:50 AM »
I don't like the Wii branding and I think it conjures more bad gaming memories than good, but for better or worse we're stuck with it now so...whatever.  My big problems with the Wii U have always been...

1.  Nintendo's appalling refusal to share specifics about the console and their plans for it, especially on features I actually care about.  For instance, I'm a fan of trophy hunting on PS3. The Wii U allegedly supports an achievement-type system, so why does no one seem to want to talk about it?  Why has Nintendo said NOTHING about a Wii U Virtual Console?

For that matter, online is only getting more important in the gaming industry, so how are we now less than 2 months away from launch and we still know very little about anything related to the Wii U's online infrastructure other than some basics on Miiverse (and a rewards program exclusive to the Premium model that's only vaguely defined outside of Japan)?  This isn't the N64 or GameCube days.  The Internet matters, and how your company is going to handle it in your new console isn't something you just dump in a Nintendo Direct a month before launch.  It's like how the 3DS launched without its eShop.  This doesn't tell me that Nintendo's biding their time before letting us in on their plan.  It tells me they don't HAVE a plan, and they want me to dump $350 into this thing?

2.  Nintendo's packed the Wii U with so many features I don't give a damn about that do nothing for me to add value to the purchase, like Miiverse; TViii; and the artificial "crisis" of having to share TVs when my house has at least 4 HD TVs, and these days it seems to be all they want to talk about.  Yet they've skimped on all the little things that would add value for me, like not being able to upscale Wii games into HD; likely not being able to play Virtual Console games with the GamePad; and not being able to play even certain Classic Controller-compatible Wii games with the GamePad.  These are the little things that require perhaps a great deal of extra work to implement and possibly would not have been cost-effective, but man their inclusion would have made such a difference to me.

3.  There's just nothing in that lineup of announced exclusive games that speaks to me outside of Rayman Legends, and that's apparently not even going to be there at launch.  If you only owned a Wii this last generation, you have quite a lot of quality 3rd party titles to choose from at launch, but if you didn't let Nintendo dictate your entertainment this current gen the selection is very slim.  And what little there is doesn't particularly excite or interest me enough to make me say "wow, this $400+ purchase (with games) was totally worth it!"  Nintendo surely has these titles, but because Nintendo stubbornly refuses to talk about games that haven't practically gone Gold already, they're refusing to show them.

The Wii branding doesn't do the console any favors for me, but in the grand scheme of problems the Wii U has for me it's relatively minor and certainly not game-breaking.  There are just so many unknowns about this console, and so much of it reeks of Nintendo trying to severely lower expectations because they know they can't meet any reasonable expectations (much as they did on the Wii).  We need to see details, we need to see games, and we need to see that Nintendo has a plan beyond this artificial "launch window" of theirs.  Compared to that, the branding is nothing.  It's meaningless.  If Nintendo could instill confidence in me that I could be happy with the games this console offers, the name wouldn't matter to me in the slightest.  But they haven't.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 02:01:27 AM by broodwars »
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #94 on: October 05, 2012, 01:58:16 AM »
And why pick on just me? Ian Sane and Broodwars and perhaps others have expressed similar opinions. So why am I the one getting all the heat?

If its because of my user title, that's not really my fault. Yes, I said that, but it doesn't need to be there as a constant reminder. If I could remove that I would, but I can't. It pisses people off when they see it every time I post, but its not my fault.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 02:00:24 AM by Chozo Ghost »
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #95 on: October 05, 2012, 02:01:32 AM »
I think the majority of core gamers (and people in general) are indifferent to the Wii branding. Those who either like it or dislike it are both minorities.

And the connotation of the word "gimmick" is what's problematic. It's not inherently negative, but it's usually used with a negative slant.
And why pick on just me? Ian Sane and Broodwars and perhaps others have expressed similar opinions. So why am I the one getting all the heat?
I pick on all of you. You're all horrible.

But, seriously, broodwars probably does the best job of expressing his opinion. You don't have to agree with someone to understand where they're coming from.

Offline broodwars

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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #96 on: October 05, 2012, 02:04:51 AM »
And why pick on just me? Ian Sane and Broodwars and perhaps others have expressed similar opinions. So why am I the one getting all the heat?

I'd like to think I'm trying to be fairly moderate in all this, all things considered.  The Wii U doesn't speak to me at the moment, but one day perhaps it could.  I just have a lot of concerns about the future of this device and Nintendo's reluctance to actually talk specifics.
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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #97 on: October 05, 2012, 02:12:10 AM »
And why pick on just me? Ian Sane and Broodwars and perhaps others have expressed similar opinions. So why am I the one getting all the heat?

If its because of my user title, that's not really my fault. Yes, I said that, but it doesn't need to be there as a constant reminder. If I could remove that I would, but I can't. It pisses people off when they see it every time I post, but its not my fault.

I think broodwars is being too pessimistic, but he has real reasons for being apprehensive about it, as opposed to the superficiality of the branding and concerns about what is likely to be a non-issue of vague comments regarding the CPU that you're bringing to the table.

As for Ian, I think we've all learned to tune him out to an extent by now. Maybe we'll get there with you at some point if you keep this up.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #98 on: October 05, 2012, 02:18:43 AM »
Well, I already wrote this whole thing so I'm posting it. Honestly, I don't think Chozo is trolling and he's not breaking any rules. I enjoy the discussion, but I've tried lately to step away before I start feeling the need to throw the f-word around. He's entitled to his opinion which I won't debate. I will inquire about his reasoning for the sake of discussion

Thank you.

And as I said, if its because of my user title thing don't blame me for that. I think its Uncle Bob who did that to me, but I'm not sure. There's nothing I can do about it, so I kinda decided to embrace it. If it were removed from my title I would also remove it from my signature. The reason its in my signature is my way of resisting this injustice.

You're awfully judgmental of these so-called casual suckers. Didn't they buy something they wanted just like you and me?

If they are satisfied with it then they weren't suckers by buying it, but every single person I know who owns a Wii isn't even playing it. Nowadays people use it for Netflix or the virtual console if they even use it at all. I think looking back now most people would feel that the hype they felt for the Wii in 2006-2007 was unjustified. The Wii seemed like a really awesome thing back then and everyone wanted to own it, but after playing Wii Sports for 15 minutes the enthusiasm of most people began to fizzle out. The awesome swordfighting games we thought were going to happen never showed up, except for Zelda and Red Steel. It was a disappointment.

The Wii U has a disadvantage because people aren't going to have the same level of hype for it, because they remember how the Wii turned out and will be more reluctant to buy into the whole gimmick of it. Not to mention that the touchscreen controller concept isn't really quite as revolutionary as motion controls were. Touchscreen gaming has been around for 8 years now with the DS and more recently with the uDraw tablet thing. So when people look at this they might have an attitude of "been there, done that".

Also, keep in mind that the uDraw which the Wii U gamepad was inspired by was a commercial failure which cost THQ a huge amount of money because people wouldn't buy it. This doesn't bode well for the success of the Wii U's similar concept.

I love how you're so hung up on the "gimmicky" controller when it's just a regular controller with a screen on it. Unlike the Wii Remote, it's not limiting in the least. In fact, it offers MORE options. Nintendo took a traditional controller and added to it and yet it's for casual gamers somehow. I don't understand your reasoning whatsoever.

Again, I'm fine with the gimmicks of the controller. As you said if developers don't want to use them they don't have to. Its not a big deal to me. The only issue I have is the cost of it, and how it detracts from the console itself. I think either the cost of the console went up or the specs were brought down in order to accomodate the controller. So gamers are paying for that even if they have zero interest in it.

I do agree that as a gimmick it is benign and not going to be as annoying as waggle was. But again its just the cost that bothers me. Other than that I'm totally fine with it. I would just have rather Nintendo had invested that same amount of money into making the console itself more powerful.

You're also hung up on the "obsolete" hardware despite the fact that you've proven to know nothing about how hardware works. I can't even count how many times you've trashed the CPU based on clock speed of all things, as if it's that simple (hint: it's not). Home consoles will always be outclassed by PCs. That doesn't render home consoles obsolete. It's not the hardware itself; it's what developers can do with it. The Wii U is a more modern design. You insist that Nintendo "cheaped out." That's one way of looking at it. Another way is that they have valued optimization and efficiency for over 10 years now. The Xbox didn't run circles around Gamecube despite having better numbers on paper. We're simply not going to see the same drastic jump from standard definition to high definition ever again so if you're expecting a repeat of the Wii vs. PS3/360 in terms of graphics, you're wasting your time. The sad truth is that it's been 6-7 years and current generation games are still really, really expensive to produce. And you want even more powerful hardware that demands higher budgets and longer development cycles? How much better will they even look? Good luck with that.

I don't claim to be an expert on CPUs and stuff, but I would assume these developers know their stuff. Also, its not just a matter of the clock speed. Megabyte pointed out how the CPU has only a few threads (whatever that means). So its not just clock speed where the CPU is inferior, but also threads. What that means I don't really know, but I trust Megabyte knows what he is talking about because he seems knowledgeable about that kind of stuff.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 02:23:18 AM by Chozo Ghost »
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Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
« Reply #99 on: October 05, 2012, 02:33:14 AM »
Again, I'm fine with the gimmicks of the controller. As you said if developers don't want to use them they don't have to. Its not a big deal to me. The only issue I have is the cost of it, and how it detracts from the console itself. I think either the cost of the console went up or the specs were brought down in order to accomodate the controller. So gamers are paying for that even if they have zero interest in it.

The problem is you're basing this on nothing but your own assumptions. You assume you know the cost of the controller, and you assume to know how, and if, it affected the development of the hardware, with nothing to back it up.
Insanolord is a terrible moderator.

J.P. Corbran
NWR Community Manager and Soccer Correspondent