Author Topic: Just FYI, Silicon Knights suing Epic (Read 4644 times)

Kairon · « **on:** July 19, 2007, 12:14:48 PM »

This is the most interesting post-E3 evar.

Gamasutra reports.

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The Epic VP continues: "We'd love to tell you more about it but unfortunately our lawyers want us to save our comments for the courthouse so we're going to do our best to comply with their wishes."

He concludes: "In that vein we'd appreciate if our friends in the industry and media would refrain from asking us about the suit because we're only going to say "no comment". We just wanted to share the news directly before the rumor mill starts churning."

Representatives from Silicon Knights were not immediately available for comment, but Gamasutra will update this story when more information about the contents of the lawsuit are made available.

[UPDATE: Gamasutra has now obtained a copy of the lawsuit, which was filed in North Carolina district court and demands a jury trial on the grounds of breach of contract regarding Unreal Engine 3 licensing.

If you click over, it appears that SK is angry at Epic for not providing the support and missing deadlines that were contractually promised, as well as hinting that Epic was favoring its own games over them, and that they were forced to spend money on their own engines because of these issues.

Artimus · « **Reply #1 on:** July 19, 2007, 12:28:30 PM »

I'd love to see them win. Just 'cuz.

denjet78 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 19, 2007, 01:31:16 PM »

Considering how SK talked up the Too Human enging on the GC, remember that Eternal Darkness was supposed to be running on a subset of it, and then they dumped it in favor of licensing a 3rd party engine I don't really care anymore. The minute I heard that they were licensing the engine for Too Human I realized just how inept they really were. Besides, OF COURSE Epic is going to favor their own games. Umm, can you say Duh? As for support, again, they obviously can't seem to get anything done by themselves. Deadlines... eh, we're talking games here. Everything misses deadlines. It sounds like they're just being whiny brats about the whole thing. Of course I'd have to see exactly what the main issues are but with my growing distaste for SK, I just don't care.

UERD · « **Reply #3 on:** July 19, 2007, 04:57:52 PM »

Bleh, engine crap. I'm all for improved technology and better code mastery, but I swear that video games are the first art form where the 'artists' seriously think that their tools are going to do the creative heavy lifting for them.

Kairon · « **Reply #4 on:** July 19, 2007, 05:05:47 PM »

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Originally posted by: UERD
Bleh, engine crap. I'm all for improved technology and better code mastery, but I swear that video games are the first art form where the 'artists' seriously think that their tools are going to do the creative heavy lifting for them.

UERD, you are on a ROLL. There have been a number of psots from you these past couple days that are just joys to read.

Chozo Ghost · « **Reply #5 on:** July 19, 2007, 05:31:35 PM »

I think it is obvious now why Nintendo let them go...

capamerica · « **Reply #6 on:** July 19, 2007, 07:32:24 PM »

It makes a lot of sense what's going on. I hope SK wins. Its not right for a Engine developer to hold out on supplying important promised features to a company who spent $$$$$ on an engine. It would be one thing if the features had been delayed cause of issues programing them in, its another when they a re delayed cause the Engine developer wants to have them only available to themselves to help sell their game.

Also it looks like SK is not the only one who is having problems with Epic and their lack of supporting their engine, Koei is having issues with the PS3 version of the Unreal 3 engine and is blaming that on why Fatal Inertia was canceled for the PS3. Could Epic be holding out on developers so UT3 is the first really nice looking game to use the Unreal 3 engine on the PS3?

I hope Epic gets their balls hammered to the wall if this is the case. I know now that I'll be avoiding the Unreal engines on any games I make in the future.

Kairon · « **Reply #7 on:** July 19, 2007, 07:59:32 PM »

Yeah, actually, reading through that, I feel a lot of sympathy for SK. We've only heard one side of the story though... but still, it sounds like some unkempt doings from Epic.

Nephilim · « **Reply #8 on:** July 19, 2007, 09:05:58 PM »

well isnt the ut3 engine like 500k to 1million to licence, when companys pay that much money u cant simply treat clients poorly

Ceric · « **Reply #9 on:** July 20, 2007, 03:59:42 AM »

So for the people who say that developers should roll their own engine or their just script kiddies wannabes do you expect a painter to weave their own canvasses? Make their paints? Refrain from using programs that allow for more then just pixel placement and hand style vector drawing?

As things become more complex to get what consumers now expect from games and the like take more and more of a devout focus. You wouldn't want your DB Admin to right the Database program and then administer it. No you use MySQL or Oracle. Though thats for another time.

Also I hope Epic gets slammed. They have been in the engine market for long enough and are a big enough player that they probably dictate what will be on the contract giving little concessions to make the other side feel good. Once you sign a business contract, if done correctly, it is binding by law. I'm also sure the support SK paid for was not cheap at all.

Maybe the Serious engine will get more play now.

couchmonkey · « **Reply #10 on:** July 20, 2007, 06:33:52 AM »

Well, ultimately, I'll wait for more info from the courts and journalists. My instinct is to go with Silicon Knights on this, but I admit that's mainly because I like them better than Epic...which doesn't necessarilly mean they're right.

But that's a boring post, so let's put on our tinfoil hats: Epic has recently gotten in bed with Sony, producing a timed-exclusive Unreal Tournament 3 and an exclusive Gears of War type game, all while providing Sony with a better version of the Unreal engine for the PS3.

Since Microsoft no longer has anything to gain from Epic, and it knows that Silicon Knights has had a few problems, it helps spur a legal action that will give Epic and therefore Sony headaches for months and maybe years to come.

UERD · « **Reply #11 on:** July 20, 2007, 07:49:34 AM »

Epic is definitely in breach of contract- and definitely in a conflict of interest scenario, but after reading the SK interview I find it hard to feel sorry for them.

So a pox on both their houses.

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As things become more complex to get what consumers now expect from games and the like take more and more of a devout focus. You wouldn't want your DB Admin to right the Database program and then administer it. No you use MySQL or Oracle. Though thats for another time.

I completely agree. No amount of code is going to allow a talentless hack to turn out a masterpiece, though. Developers need to learn to take the older software tools to their limit, rather than relying on 'next-gen' as a crutch. Why do I care? Because next-gen = next-gen hardware = higher prices. And when some XBox games are going up to $70+, it's worrying.

Mashiro · « **Reply #12 on:** July 20, 2007, 07:51:37 AM »

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Originally posted by: UERD
And when some XBox games are going up to $70+, it's worrying.

Holy crap are they really that high again? That's crazy . . . reminds me of the N64 days >.<!

I'd like to take this time and thank Nintendo for keeping their titles at $49.99.

Nick DiMola · « **Reply #13 on:** July 20, 2007, 08:12:58 AM »

I have to agree with Ceric. Writing your own engine is typically asinine. Engines all do more or less the same thing, some just do it better than others. If Epic couldn't provide SK with the proper support for an engine they were paying big bucks for, Epic clearly would be breaching contract.

On another note, just because you license use of an Engine doesn't mean you're a hack or you think someone else will do the creative work for you, it just means you'd rather spend more time on the creative side rather than on the programming side. Of course, in any case, it can have its positives and its negatives, but usually it is a good thing and may ultimately keep production costs down overall and give you a much better engine than what you could come up with.

UERD · « **Reply #14 on:** July 20, 2007, 08:22:52 AM »

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just because you license use of an Engine doesn't mean you're a hack or you think someone else will do the creative work for you

Not this game, but the mindset of a lot of other games (especially where the engine is the key selling point).

I should mention that I first read this thread right after reading that SK interview, which left a bad taste in my mouth. Again, there is nothing inherently wrong with an external engine (it's pretty much the only cost-effective way for a small developer to make a non-casual game), and not all (or even most) developers who outsource engine work are anything near lazy hacks, but there are a lot of them who think they can compensate through the engine.

Nick DiMola · « **Reply #15 on:** July 20, 2007, 08:32:30 AM »

I can definitely agree with that UERD

SixthAngel · « **Reply #16 on:** July 20, 2007, 10:16:30 AM »

Could SK delay their game anymore if they tried?

Mashiro · « **Reply #17 on:** July 20, 2007, 10:48:58 AM »

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Originally posted by: SixthAngel
Could SK delay their game anymore if they tried?

Too Human will be delayed until PS4 comes out in 2020.

The delay will be announced at TGS.

Kairon · « **Reply #18 on:** July 20, 2007, 10:52:34 AM »

But... Too Human is supposed to be a trilogy!

Mashiro · « **Reply #19 on:** July 20, 2007, 10:56:11 AM »

Too Human will be unique in that sense Karion.

It will take generations of players to experience it. For example, you will enjoy Too Human 1, your grand kids will enjoy Too Human 2 and your great great great great great grand kids may get lucky enough to enjoy Too Human 3.

Caliban · « **Reply #20 on:** July 20, 2007, 11:21:20 AM »

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Originally posted by: capamerica
Koei is having issues with the PS3 version of the Unreal 3 engine and is blaming that on why Fatal Inertia was canceled for the PS3.

koei Canada, right here in Toronto, which isn't too far from St. Catherines where Silicon Knights happens to be. Coincidence? Mayyybe.

Kairon · « **Reply #21 on:** July 20, 2007, 11:24:16 AM »

What we really don't suspect is that all this is possible because Too Human actually happened, it's not fiction, it's the true story of mythic forgotten ages past... the true story of Baldur... and that this epic, truthful retelling of an ancient story is only possible because Denis Dyack is really Baldur in disguise, with the inherent longevity and power that would allow him to make a multi-generational memoir.

NinGurl69 *huggles · « **Reply #22 on:** July 20, 2007, 02:20:37 PM »

that one E3 showing was an EPIC disaster. multiple ways.

News:

Author Topic: Just FYI, Silicon Knights suing Epic (Read 4644 times)