Topic: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN

[Ian Sane]

"It's not about power. The PSX and PS2 were inferior, technically, to their competition. And yet Sony is the market leader. Not knowing what to do to maintain their hold, the simplest idea is to make the PS3 the most powerful. They're going to wow everyone with graphics."

I think the way it works is like this.  Whoever wins the previous generation wins the next generation and does so until they make some huge colossal screwup that drives people away like the plague in which case another company in the right place at the right time takes over.  So the best thing to do is to make sure you're the company in the right place and hold out until the marker leader screws up.

[ShyGuy]

So are you going to be upset if Nintendo succeeds this next generation because they won't have "learned their lesson" ?

They apparently aren't learning there lesson on the DS, what with the weak launch and non-games, but somehow they're beating the PSP. Inconcievable!

[Ian Sane]

"So are you going to be upset if Nintendo succeeds this next generation because they won't have 'learned their lesson'?"

I didn't say "learned their lesson", I said "learned from their mistakes".  Big difference.  It has nothing to do with punishing them or anything like that.  I fear Nintendo is going to end up worse off this generation than the one before because they're making the same mistakes they made with the Cube all over again.

And the DS falls into the "market leader remains on top until they screwup big time" theory.  It's a whole lot easier to recover from a crummy launch when you used to have virtually 100% of the market than when you're in last place.

[Bill Aurion]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
No.  Improvement means addressing the stuff that you screwed up last time around.  Nintendo isn't doing that.  This isn't about HD or what Sony and MS do.  This is about learning from your mistakes and fixing the things that hurt you and had no real reason to occur.  It isn't part of Nintendo's vision to leave us with virtually nothing to play until November.  That's just a big f*ck up, plain and simple and any successful company would try their hardest to avoid that after it already bit them in the ass.

I'm starting to think Nintendo is either too stubborn to admit their wrong or they're too stunned to even notice what they do wrong.

So how about listing these so-called mistakes?  They have 3rd parties lauding their decision and have more than made up for their "lack-of-mainstream" appeal...

[Artimus]

I don't see how this story has anything to do with Nintendo not learning from their mistakes. The biggest problem with the GameCube was the look and the treatment, both are being changed. If anything this story is about a new mistake not an old one. Being underpowered has never been done by Nintendo before.

[Ian Sane]

The mistakes I feel that are repeating are:

De-emphasis of technology: with the Cube Nintendo gave conservative specs and everyone thought they were underpowered.  Now they're not even giving out the specs at all and again everyone is assuming they're underpowered.

Behind the times: the N64 didn't use CDs, the Cube didn't go online, the Rev doesn't support HD.  I feel the HD thing is easily the most minor of those three but again there's a new technology that's starting to take off just as Nintendo is releasing a new console and they're ignoring it, assuming that something that is currently niche but is growing in popularlity is still going to be niche five years from now.

Delay with getting dev kits out: devs are still working with incomplete hardware.  The same thing happened with the Cube.  Most third parties couldn't make the launch and we got some HORRIBLE ports like Spy Hunter as a result as third parties tried to catch up.

Huge drought prior to launch: the N64-to-Cube transition was rocky with literally no console games being released on a Nintendo console for several months.  This seriously hurt the Cube's momemtum.  It's already happening with the Cube-to-Rev transition and it's going to be easily as bad if not worse if they wait until November to launch.

These are things that were being brought up in "what should Nintendo do for their next console?" threads within the first year of the Cube's life.  These are old issues that were widely regarded as big problems.  Yet Nintendo isn't really addressing any of them.

[ShyGuy]

I don't want Nintendo to emphasize technology. I want them to emphasize other things.

[Bill Aurion]

De-emphasis of technology: with the Cube Nintendo gave conservative specs and everyone thought they were underpowered. Now they're not even giving out the specs at all and again everyone is assuming they're underpowered.

Noone cares, and it doesn't affect the end result...

Behind the times: the N64 didn't use CDs, the Cube didn't go online, the Rev doesn't support HD. I feel the HD thing is easily the most minor of those three but again there's a new technology that's starting to take off just as Nintendo is releasing a new console and they're ignoring it, assuming that something that is currently niche but is growing in popularlity is still going to be niche five years from now.

So we get an expensive function that just eats game resources and emphasizes poor textures...It's the wave of the future, I'm telling you...Again, noone worth talking to cares about such garbage...The people that consider High Dollar important aren't in it for Ninty's gameplay anyway, so there's no point...

Delay with getting dev kits out: devs are still working with incomplete hardware. The same thing happened with the Cube. Most third parties couldn't make the launch and we got some HORRIBLE ports like Spy Hunter as a result as third parties tried to catch up.

As with all system launches...It's pretty much unavoidable, so don't even bother arguing it...HOWEVER, because devs already have what's important (Revmote and souped-up GC dev kits) the "poor launch" is most definitely in 3rd party hands...While crappy games are going to be unavoidable, I believe the only big "flaw" in the Rev launch will be GC-like graphics in 3rd party games...But not like that's the reason you'll be purchasing a Revolution anyway, right?

Huge drought prior to launch: the N64-to-Cube transition was rocky with literally no console games being released on a Nintendo console for several months. This seriously hurt the Cube's momemtum. It's already happening with the Cube-to-Rev transition and it's going to be easily as bad if not worse if they wait until November to launch.

Meeeeeh, the Cube's momentum had NOTHING to do with N64 software, it had to do with GC software that people didn't want (because they are stupid for not liking Luigi's Mansion)...The fact that Ninty is attempting to bring in new gamers only makes this point of yours even more moot...

[Ian Sane]

They don't have to emphasize technology.  They just shouldn't de-emphasize it.  It should just be there and they should do what's expected.  Just release specs with unrealistic numbers so that those that care have something to compare between the other consoles that uses the same type of results.  Don't use a different type of results that will make you look significantly inferior in a direct comparison.  Don't not release anything at all.

And make sure the actual hardware itself is going to last five years without any big problems limiting what can be done.  Now that doesn't mean they're not doing that with their hardware but console games typically get more impressive in regards to the technical achievements as their life goes on.  I don't know exactly how capable the Rev hardware is but it should be such that in 2011 the games are much more impressive from a technology perspective than the ones made in 2006.  Hopefully the Rev is capable of providing that.  Nintendo says that the games will look comparable and if that's the case then they can fib a bit about specs and get away with it.  No one will notice that they lied if the games look great regardless.  But being all quiet despite rumours of being underpowered is just going to make it "fact" that the Rev is underpowered.

[Bill Aurion]

Just release specs with unrealistic numbers so that those that care have something to compare between the other consoles that uses the same type of results.

WHY?  So Ninty fans can finally have an e-penis to sling around?  It's so utterly pointless it's mindboggling!  The average consumer doesn't read ANYTHING on specs AT ALL!

[Guitar Smasher]

"They're betting the farm on the controller. They aren't realy fixing or improving anything."

Honestly, you can't outright say that.  Of course they've improved things.  
It's no longer the 'purple lunchbox'.  Now it's the sleekest of the new systems.  
It's no longer the only one without online.  Now it's the one with the most accessible online system.  
It's no longer the system with the 'too small disk space'.  Now it's assumed it'll match Xbox360's discs.
It'll no longer have the same 'tiku tiku tiku!  image', or at least not to the same degree.  Now with the release of Zelda:TP, and the sexy look, it'll get more respect.
It's no longer the least functional controller.  Now its controller puts the others to shame (presumably).

Now in response to the lack of HD, I think the Rev more than makes up for it in these departments: downloadable past games, and the controller.  These are things that almost everyone will be able to use, as opposed to HD.  The icing is that these things add no cost to the console/games.

[odifiend]

Ian, are you serious?  You'd be the first one to be pissed off that they lied about the numbers.  I know I'd be pretty angry too.  I don't like companies lying outright to me.

[JonLeung]

Bill speaks the truth.  I agree with him.

Except the part about Luigi's Mansion.  Okay, maybe I didn't dislike it, but I really would've wanted to have a Mario game or for SSBM to have come out a couple weeks earlier to have made it for launch.  I know you can't talk about rushes with Nintendo (supposedly SSBM was rushed as it was (o_0)) but if not for Rogue Leader, I probably wouldn't have gotten a GameCube right at launch (as in, the first day).

But yeah, specs get lost when it comes to consumers.  Some don't even believe the PS2 is underpowered to the competition this generation.  It basically comes down to the kinds of games they'd want to play.  If the controller does provide new game experiences, and those are games worth experiencing, then it'll sell.

[pudu]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
They don't have to emphasize technology.  They just shouldn't de-emphasize it.

I agree with this.  They are taking a pesimistic approach in my opinion by continually telling us that technology doesn't matter and that the Rev being the weakest console doesn't matter.  What they should consintrate on is the good aspects of their tech.  They are obviously already doing this with the controller but they could also do it the the graphics.  Prove to us your point, make us say "wow".  If they turn out having a weaker console but it's still very capable then they should embrace this and show off what is good about it.  Tell us about it's ease of development, it's streamlined and and efficient performance, its strengths that will still make it next gen and seperate it from the GCN.

Something they should definately consider is shelf life.  If when its launched it turns out to sport a far less impressive visual package and it's using easier to utilize hardware what happens in years to come when devs start to actually tap the PS3 and Xbox 360?

[Spak-Spang]

Reading everything here.  I was bummed and then I realized it only SOUNDS like Nintendo is in a worse spot than before.

1)2-3 times more powerful.  Lets, get this straight.  Xbox was not twice as powerful as the Gamecube.  Though people seem to believe it was.  That was the perception because of the lack of understanding in technology.  3 times the power of a Gamecube system for Standard Defination gaming means that developers should be able to design whatever they want, and have enormous freedom with the graphics.  Yeah, it won't be HD but still graphics will look good.

2)November really bummed me out.  But it is OUR own fault.  We started to believe the hype of rumors.  June, July, August release dates.  We actually believe Sony Playstation 3 will be out in April of Japan.  (HA!!!)  November gives Nintendo plenty of time to actually have Smash Brothers Revolution as a launch game.  It gives them plenty of time to produce Mario for launch as well.

3)Nintendo has more time to get development kits out to 3rd parties for launch games now.  Instead of the lack which would have happened with a Summer launch.

[Ian Sane]

"Ian, are you serious? You'd be the first one to be pissed off that they lied about the numbers."

How would I know they lied?  How would ANY of us know unless the Rev graphics looked like the N64 or something?  The X360 is visually underwhelming but I couldn't tell you if the given specs match what I'm seeing.  Something like Sony's "Toy Story graphics" claim is insane but saying they can push whatever billion polygons per second provided they're wireframes and have no detail on a black background isn't something I would spot.  Hell if Nintendo did release specs I wouldn't be able to comment on them because I don't really know anything about hardware.  But the second they hinted that they would never release specs I immediately assumed it was because the hardware wasn't up to snuff so they were hiding it.

"Noone cares"
"noone worth talking to cares about such garbage"
"But not like that's the reason you'll be purchasing a Revolution anyway, right?"
"because they are stupid for not liking Luigi's Mansion"

In other words "I and other diehards who think Nintendo can do no wrong don't care so it's not important."  Well yes I suppose, Bill, that if everyone thought like you then Nintendo would sitting pretty.  But not everyone thinks that way and that's the problem.

To me most of this stuff doesn't matter either, except for game droughts.  But I know it matters to lots of people.  I know that these mistakes contributed greatly to the Cube's underperformance and last place finish.  Fixing sh!t like this can only attract more people to Nintendo which is good for us fans because it means better third party support and better overall stability for Nintendo if they don't have to worry about their marketshare constantly shrinking.  It means more options for us.  It means Nintendo having a stronger presence in the industry and thus having more influence.  More Nintendo influence is good because they care about making great games.  We basically have nothing to lose if Nintendo just addresses recurring problems.

On the flipside doing NOTHING to address these will just result in a lower marketshare, less influence on the industry, less third party support, and less games and options for us.

Nintendo releasing "tweaked" specs
PROS: removes nasty rumour that Rev is underpowered and makes the Rev look good to those who care about that sort of stuff.
CONS: Nintendo doesn't tell the 100% truth, which no one could really prove, and offends some hardcore fans who will buy anything Nintendo releases anyway.

Nintendo hiding their specs
PROS: proves that Nintendo isn't about hardware specs and thus delights some hardcore fans who will buy anything Nintendo releases anyway.
CONS: creates a widespread rumour that the Rev is significantly underpowered thus creating a bad image for a console that already has to fight so hard just to distance itself from the Cube's poor image.

It's all little stuff like that.

[Bill Aurion]

"In other words "I and other diehards who think Nintendo can do no wrong don't care so it's not important." Well yes I suppose, Bill, that if everyone thought like you then Nintendo would sitting pretty. But not everyone thinks that way and that's the problem."

Um, no...I guarantee you that a strong majority of gamers don't give a flying crap about specs...You state that specs are a huge deal and it's not...The score of MS and Sony fanboys are the only ones making a deal of this, the average consumer does NOT, that was my point...My being a fanboy does NOT change this fact...

[zakkiel]

Quote
How would I know they lied? How would ANY of us know unless the Rev graphics looked like the N64 or something?

 The same way we're hearing about this stuff now. And you appear to be asking Nintendo to lie to you, jsut make sure you don't find out about it. A little odd.

Quote
WHY? So Ninty fans can finally have an e-penis to sling around? It's so utterly pointless it's mindboggling! The average consumer doesn't read ANYTHING on specs AT ALL!

Well said.

Quote
Edit: Moore's law refers to the number of transistors doubling every 18-24 months. Performance is a misquote.

True. Also, with six years bewteen launches power doubling would imply systems eight times as powerful.

[Spak-Spang]

One of the things we on these boards have admired Nintendo for is being the most intellectually honest company in the industry.  They admit when they make mistakes, they strave to have VERY GOOD customer relations, and they actually care about their fans and gamers.  

Now, you are saying 'tweaked' stats are what Nintendo needs to release to be on top.  I am sorry, but it would be discovered, and I would lose alot of respect for Nintendo.

I would completely be out of the gaming industry if it wasn't for Nintendo.  Their systems, their games, and their public gaming philosophies are similar to mine.

We don't know how bad of a gaming drought their will be before the Revolution is released.  Obviously, Nintendo is still working on Gamecube games...for example that 3D Kirby game isn't out yet.  And there was rumors of a Gamecube version of Mario Basketball.  I am willing to bet that this supposed drought we are fearing won't be too bad.  Specially with all the DS games that WILL be coming out.

And yes that matter.  portable games take up equal amounts of play time as console.  

Now, I stated above the November launch is definately a better date for Nintendo.  Basically it means more games will be available at launch, and gives time to truly polish those games.  

The fact that the hardware may be very similar to current generation software also helps quickly produce launch games for the system.  I now believe that Smash Brothers Revolution will be available day 1.  I also fully believe Mario Revolution will be available day 1. And Retro should have no problem preping Metroid Revolution for day 1 as well.  That is at least 3 big title games at launch.  And we know Nintendo has more development houses creating games as we speak.  

Nintendo may be late, and it may be a hard, long wait for us fans, but it will truly be worth the wait...and this launch will be impressive.  

Last, I am believing more and more about the possiblity of a $149 system launch.  I know people argue that $199 is the magic number.  But not for nongamers, not for people who have never RISKED money on a console.  $149 is a better price.  I think Nintendo realizes that have to appear drastically different from the competition and truly make themselves known as a different console.

[Ian Sane]

"The score of MS and Sony fanboys are the only ones making a deal of this, the average consumer does NOT, that was my point"

I don't feel it's that insignificant but even if it is what is the harm is releasing specs?  Some people, even if it's not many, are turned off by the lack of specs.  NO ONE would be turned off by the release of specs.  One has some negative results and the other doesn't so why go with the one that has some negative results?

"One of the things we on these boards have admired Nintendo for is being the most intellectually honest company in the industry. They admit when they make mistakes, they strave to have VERY GOOD customer relations, and they actually care about their fans and gamers."

BS.  Nintendo lied about the Cube online plans.  They kept saying they were going to release them at a later date when they had NO PLANS at all.  Funny how so many people forget that.  They basically lied to our face about that one.  And they hardly ever admit mistakes.  Nintendo isn't perfect.  Their reputation is based on the fact that they're very exceptional.  They do care about quality and provide very good customer service.  But they're nowhere near perfect and have done shady things that directly affect us in the past.  They released a tiny memory card and charged the same price Sony did for a card 8 times the size.  They charged an extra ten bucks for Player's Choice titles.  They made us jump through hoops to get their first demo disc.  They care about profit over all else regardless of how horrible their marketshare is and have no problem denying us options so that every quarter they stay in the black.

Nintendo is a fantastic company but they aren't saints.  Following the same pattern of specs so that they can be fairly compared to the competition is small potatoes compared to the fact that they used to have an illegal monopoly of the console industry.  If that didn't ruin your fandom of Nintendo then why would giving technically-accurate-but-not-applicable-to-real-life specs?

[Bill Aurion]

One has some negative results and the other doesn't so why go with the one that has some negative results?

No specs doesn't lead to negative results...  

I've said this way too many times already: The specs just don't matter...They don't tell us what games will look like, and they definitely don't tell us the potential behind said games...Tell me, why do you want the specs?  So you can compare realistic specs versus the competition's overhyped specs?  What's the point?  

[pudu]

Matt will be putting up a "continuation" article tonight which reveals more.  He revealed this in the Rev boards on IGN and also had this to say

Quote
Whoa baby. I should put an end to some speculation before it runs out of control.

Tonight's article will be a continuation of last night's. Satoru Iwata has not personally delivered us the full spec breakdown. Nintendo doesn't want to talk specs and I don't think anything we do will really change that.

That said, devs do have official documentation and it has been directly quoted to me over the phone.

Tonight, we'll talk a bit more about CPU / GPU power. We'll also have a clarification on RAM. (And before you go thinking that we messed up and it has 512MBs, think again -- it's the other way.) And we'll reveal the real DVD capacity. That 12GB stuff was completely bogus.

Devs also speculate on a price point.

Can someone do me a favor and pass this along to the guys at the GA Forum before they toss me into the bonfire.

Thanks.

Matt

Looks like he's saying even worse RAM specs then he previously thought and small disk sizes.  Wow things keep looking up...wtf is Nintendo doing this simply to be different or release a cheap-@ss sub $200 console?  Man...I hope they haven't gone off the deep end.  They can only do so much before they really start pissing off their fans.

[KnowsNothing]

Why does "not 12 gigs" mean small disc sizes again?

[pudu]

Quote
Originally posted by: KnowsNothing
Why does "not 12 gigs" mean small disc sizes again?

Just wait and see.  Nintendo's going to go the proprietary route again and probably not offer even the standard DVD9 capacities.

[Dirk Temporo]

So we're supposed to believe that the Rev has less than 128 MB of RAM? Horseshit.

Seriously. It sounds like he's pulling this sh!t out of his ass or the Devs' asses. The ONLY official statement on the graphics is that "they will make you go 'wow!'" and we're supposed to believe the system is going to be uber-underpowered?